All this BLM negativity. ...

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Originally Posted by OneWingedSora

Was talking about multidotting the two versions of the boss which is like 50% of the fight.

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Iirc, they do more damage when stacked together. I dont like the idea to make healers dps less. Unless everyone tell me this tether does nothing. I saw a 4mins parse with whm being lowest at 450 dps.

You don't have to Bane to multi-DoT though

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

Iirc, they do more damage when stacked together. I dont like the idea to make healers dps less. Unless everyone tell me this tether does nothing. I saw a 4mins parse with whm being lowest at 450 dps.

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They don't have to be stacked for me to multidot..

Word. I'm an idiot. Now it makes sense to see sch pull so much higher dps

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

If they die before you can complete a fire cast, then Scathe should be popping them dead. Otherwise the issue is you.

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Or you could keep attacking the boss instead of casting lolscathe and
1) risk losing astral fire
2) waste mana screwing your astral fire rotation due to different mana amount locking you out of your fourth fire IV just to deal 700 damage to an add

As a lvl 60 BLM main with some raid experience, I can agree that while BLMs may not necessarily be in an awful spot, simple QOL changes such as the lengthening of Enochian would make the class much more balanced with the other DPS classes.

I don't think lengthening Enochian is necessary. For QoL purposes, I'd like to see Astral Fire/Umbral Ice have a duration of 12 seconds instead of 10, or have the checks(of whether or not you have both required buffs up) for casting Fire IV/Blizzard IV only be at the start of the cast, not the start and the end, to have a smoother response and make the rotation more fluid between boss mechanics.

Been doing a lot more farming all 4 pieces for every single person. My opinions as of now:

A1: gotta hand it to SMN but they both smoke it, doesn't matter unless you're trying to speed run or something
A2: SMN wins. Period.
A3: Okay this one is interesting. On a parse, BLM will win probably even though there is a very real chance you can drop Enochian or have to B3 immediately upon phase change, depending on phase pushes with the "adds" compared to Enochian timers (have to try the fight more on BLM, been doing SMN more). SMN is just garbage in the actual add phase though, completely worthless on paper. However, it doesn't really matter IMO if BLM is far better in this phase, in the sense that I believe it's timed (so killing adds faster isn't particularly helpful if you can kill them in time regardless), and adds kinda get 2-3 shot regardless of if BLM is doing F4 or if other people are hitting them. I feel like SMN will do more to get a better clear, dealing with the mechanics more consistently and really working the double hit portion, though BLM will do well; regardless this is definitely a melee fight.
A4: Also an interesting one. BLM is obviously much better at destroying these particular adds, but the orbs/lasers/getting grabbed are not BLM friendly unfortunately, unless you happen to be close by. I'm actually not sure if you can multi-DoT in P1, or rather, if it's beneficial. I like BLM on it for now, although some of the slow phase changes can be pretty annoying for BLM, SMN doesn't particularly like these phase changes IMO either in this turn. Also a melee fight.

Just food for thought. Looking forward I could see almost all of these turns really shifting to SMN in a savage environment IMO if the mechanics are more in your face and require more bodies doing them, but we shall see!

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Originally Posted by hallena

Or you could keep attacking the boss instead of casting lolscathe and
1) risk losing astral fire
2) waste mana screwing your astral fire rotation due to different mana amount locking you out of your fourth fire IV just to deal 700 damage to an add

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I CAN'T STOP CASTING THE BOOM BECAUSE I CAN CAST THE BOOM.

BOOM >>> ANY MECHANICS

Either BLM ST is uber, or BLM should be the one dropping their ST while the other dps continue to rape the boss, you can't have it both ways. God forbid you lose enochain by using a B3 and some Scathes to smash down the adds while the real ST dps stay on boss.

I don't know whether to call it QoL or just a total rethinking, but simply put, I know 60 blm can perform the numbers. It doesn't need 'buffs'. However it doesn't feel like 50 blm did, and it isn't fun. Little tiny things that didn't matter before, like an add dying before a cast went off, that didn't matter, now do. In general it feels as if the highs are higher, but the lows are much lower. And given XIV's raid design, those lows occur plenty often. It just adds up to frustration. I don't enjoy playing blm, the class I mained for all of 2.0. And dps has nothing to do with that.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

If you say so. All I say is try the class out for yourself and compare with the well known bug lists. A number of the top end BLM players have the same concerns about the class. Right now in an end game progression sense, if you need a caster, go SMN. If you can go 3x Melee, take a third Melee.

When the non-easy mode content gets implemented, you'll see that :)

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I'm not saying there isn't QoL and bugs that need to be fixed. No there's quite a few, I know the delay is a pain and the whole aspect could be made smoother. As for a DPS buff, they don't need that, they already do enough if they play well. When harder content comes out that still punishes BLM and BLMs struggle on then, then I'm conceed to your point. At the moment, BLMs pull fine DPS and just have to learn to fights in order to play correctly. The average player, however, does not know how to do this. Hence why you don't buff it.

Also, people complaining about small adds. SMNs are shit on them too. Not enough HP to cast DoTs, a waste to use Ruin I/II, you can try to painflare, but that's just wasting DPS and you can use Dreadwyrm Trance, but that's just silly. Adds are melee and ranged physical areas, let them deal with it.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

I'm not saying there isn't QoL and bugs that need to be fixed. No there's quite a few, I know the delay is a pain and the whole aspect could be made smoother. As for a DPS buff, they don't need that, they already do enough if they play well. When harder content comes out that still punishes BLM and BLMs struggle on then, then I'm conceed to your point. At the moment, BLMs pull fine DPS and just have to learn to fights in order to play correctly. The average player, however, does not know how to do this. Hence why you don't buff it.

Also, people complaining about small adds. SMNs are shit on them too. Not enough HP to cast DoTs, a waste to use Ruin I/II, you can try to painflare, but that's just wasting DPS and you can use Dreadwyrm Trance, but that's just silly. Adds are melee and ranged physical areas, let them deal with it.

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As i've said, give me a reason why in an optimal raid group there is a reason to take a BLM, when compared to a second melee or a SMN?

I agree with the nerf to AOE, but the single target damage was not buffed enough to compensate due to the losses in DPS that I outlined in my earlier post. If we had Fey Glow back to what it was and Ley Lines scaled of Spellspeed, we'd certainly be up there again, and only QoL is needed.

But then you have the issue with BLM's scaling the least from Int and WD. So we'll be further behind.

Sure, I can carry on with BLM and optimise and clear stuff. But why bother when I can just switch to monk/dragoon/ninja and do more dps and provide more utility to the party? Or a SMN and have better AOE/Better effective single target. And "Fine" is subjective. Take a look at the players that say there are issues, and then take a look at Puro's (RIP) spreadsheet from 2.x. I don't think its right for any class to be sub-optimal.

And I agree, small HP adds aren't great for SMN's either. At least they don't have a 3 second cast time - plus they can sacrifice mana and use instant cast Ruin 2, they are still better for large HP adds (Multi-DoT), and still better with effective single target because you WILL have to move at some point. Furthermore, if the boss can still be hit, at the very least they still have their DoT's on the boss and resort to Ruin 2 - whereas a BLM can just scathe, which is laughable.

I've run many things, including Alex. From what im reading here, people either can adapt, or cannot n switched to smn. Ill have enochian up majority of any instances im in. Imo its all about how much u pay attn to timers and mechanics. Granted ill just cast ley lines n enochian and a aoe or line of attack is on me. Simple. I sidestep just out of it and continue. Sounds like some blms are constantly running all over the place. If a small attack is incoming.... manawall/shields. And if add is about to die, switch to a new on before u cast. I do agree blm need QoL changes? Yes.... but to pick some classes over blm? No.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

Snip.

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From what you said to begin with, that mindset will always, always be prevalent. There will always be come classes that simply will pull ahead and will be favored.
That's not particularly the classes fault, but the mindset of the players fault.

As to why you would want a BLM over a SMN, because on some fights that have very little movement aspects, a BLM will outDPS the SMN, even with the current changes. The DPS swings differently however when there are phases with heavy movements. SMNs and BLKs scale completely differently too, and alongside with everything else, excel at different points too. It used to be BLM used to excel at AoE and ST when they stood still and SMN did more ST dmg when it was movement heavy. Now, it's the same with ST but the AoE has switched, which can be a pain, I admit.

As I said, it's too early to see how BLMs truly fare. Let Savage Alex come out, and see how the fights truly are there. If there are insane and glaring problems, they will be fixed. But for the current fights in the game, apart from a few QoL tweaks, BLM dmg is parsing fine and can pull ahead on some areas.

As for optimizing and having to do more to get ahead, welcome to SMN in ARR. Look, if you are not enjoying having to put in a lot of effort into a class to get the most out of it, then by all means, there are other classes out there that may server you better. Let's take a look at DRG pre-buff. Even an average DRG could pull decent DPS, but the truly good ones excelled. And now? Now that it became more complicated, the difference between bad DRGs and good DRGs are even more glaring. If anything it's the same with many of the classes now and BLM is one of them.

I don't think BLM is dead or in a horrible state, like some BLM users claim. I think all classes that need QoL tweaks and bug fixes need to have them to smooth out the experience in playing those classes. But I think that BLM takes a lot more skill and forethought now than it did before.

As for small adds, if the boss is still DPSable, then the BLM and SMN are in the same point really. Let the melee kill the adds and just focus the boss, which I'm guessing is where a BLM will gain a decent DPS boost. Ruin II one of the only choices and but it hits like a wet mop. With adds with more HP, yes, SMN burst is insane right now, and with multi target fights with high HP adds, SMN will always pull ahead in DPS. But that was even the same back in ARR.

Also: If that was your friend who messaged me last night, with horrible English I may add, and decided to just spew random shit at my FC and told me his BLM in his FC does 1.4k in Alex T4 and that I should fuck off, tell him that as much as I appreciate his comments (as much of it as I could decipher), I think his friend is completely capable of having his own arguments without his input.

If it wasn't someone you knew, then I apologize for the assumption.

I agree with the OP and not those opposed to the OP. For those opposed to the OP's position go try playing BRD or MCH and compare it with BLM. Unlike BLM which I have never seen anyone criticize since 3.0 during runs, no insults about their DPS just because of the class, no one in party chat complaining when is more than one of them in group and no kicks from parties or blocked from joining them. The only thing I have seen is out of game on these forums some BLM asking for QoL changes, any that have said it is not just QoL changes need to go play a class that has actual non-QOL problems such as BRD/MCH which should give them a reality check on what they are saying.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I CAN'T STOP CASTING THE BOOM BECAUSE I CAN CAST THE BOOM.

BOOM >>> ANY MECHANICS

Either BLM ST is uber, or BLM should be the one dropping their ST while the other dps continue to rape the boss, you can't have it both ways. God forbid you lose enochain by using a B3 and some Scathes to smash down the adds while the real ST dps stay on boss.

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So you would rather totally screw your damage and rotations to save that offtank one GCD to finish off one add, compared to continuing to damage the boss because no one needs your help with the adds. What you're asking here is the same as telling MNK to only use Bootshine only until their Greased drops.

After my static's first try on Ravana ever, the offtank said I should not bother with the Spirit Ganas, as he can solo a good chunk of them. Moons are actually something I can get a cast or two off. In Alexander, I can kill one of the random adds that spawn when no one else is doing anything to them. The add dying midcast is just way too risky for all of your timers.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

As i've said, give me a reason why in an optimal raid group there is a reason to take a BLM, when compared to a second melee or a SMN?

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Good thing my static has never cared about that. We've been going with melee, BRD, SMN, BLM since SCoB.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

From what you said to begin with, that mindset will always, always be prevalent. There will always be come classes that simply will pull ahead and will be favored.
That's not particularly the classes fault, but the mindset of the players fault.

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It depends on the player. I come from a testing and balance background, and thus like things to be balanced. Just like I advocated a number of changes to SMN last patch.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

As to why you would want a BLM over a SMN, because on some fights that have very little movement aspects, a BLM will outDPS the SMN, even with the current changes. The DPS swings differently however when there are phases with heavy movements. SMNs and BLKs scale completely differently too, and alongside with everything else, excel at different points too. It used to be BLM used to excel at AoE and ST when they stood still and SMN did more ST dmg when it was movement heavy. Now, it's the same with ST but the AoE has switched, which can be a pain, I admit.

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Yet, the difference in DPS even if the BLM can turret the whole fight isn't much, and even if the BLM can do that all fight with no mechanics, you are better off bringing another melee. Case in point; T8.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

As I said, it's too early to see how BLMs truly fare. Let Savage Alex come out, and see how the fights truly are there. If there are insane and glaring problems, they will be fixed. But for the current fights in the game, apart from a few QoL tweaks, BLM dmg is parsing fine and can pull ahead on some areas.

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It isn't too early, that is the point. We've had plenty of experience in raids and with the current rotation for all the classes to have a good idea where they are at. Hell, just look at the latest Alexander, where SMN are just better. Sure, easy content, but Savage will be similar fights with harder/more mechanics and checks.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

As for optimizing and having to do more to get ahead, welcome to SMN in ARR. Look, if you are not enjoying having to put in a lot of effort into a class to get the most out of it, then by all means, there are other classes out there that may server you better. Let's take a look at DRG pre-buff. Even an average DRG could pull decent DPS, but the truly good ones excelled. And now? Now that it became more complicated, the difference between bad DRGs and good DRGs are even more glaring. If anything it's the same with many of the classes now and BLM is one of them.

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That is still absolutely no excuse for a class being sub optimal. Its not about BLM being made more complicated, that isn't the issue whatsoever. The issue is the QoL changes, and the fact that for single target where BLM's are able to turret short of there being a cheese anti physical mechanic, a melee is just flat out better. Sure, people can do a with a bard, a ninja and a dragoon then go "wow look at how big my dps is, blm is fine", yet have lower group dps compared better composed groups

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

I don't think BLM is dead or in a horrible state, like some BLM users claim. I think all classes that need QoL tweaks and bug fixes need to have them to smooth out the experience in playing those classes. But I think that BLM takes a lot more skill and forethought now than it did before.

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And yet, an equally skilled player with equal gear on other classes that can replace a BLM will just provide more to the raid - either by pulling more DPS in a fight and in some cases with more utility.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

As for small adds, if the boss is still DPSable, then the BLM and SMN are in the same point really. Let the melee kill the adds and just focus the boss, which I'm guessing is where a BLM will gain a decent DPS boost. Ruin II one of the only choices and but it hits like a wet mop. With adds with more HP, yes, SMN burst is insane right now, and with multi target fights with high HP adds, SMN will always pull ahead in DPS. But that was even the same back in ARR.

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Both aren't great, but SMN will still do more if the boss is targeting.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Also: If that was your friend who messaged me last night, with horrible English I may add, and decided to just spew random shit at my FC and told me his BLM in his FC does 1.4k in Alex T4 and that I should fuck off, tell him that as much as I appreciate his comments (as much of it as I could decipher), I think his friend is completely capable of having his own arguments without his input.

If it wasn't someone you knew, then I apologize for the assumption.

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I've absolutely no idea who you are talking about; if whomever in the same FC as me, send me a screenshot.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

As i've said, give me a reason why in an optimal raid group there is a reason to take a BLM, when compared to a second melee or a SMN?

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You can say such as much as you want but there is a big difference between your hypothetical scenario and the reality in game in which you don't regularly see BLM's being insulted daily for the class they play instead of their ability to play it, you don't regularly see people in group chat insulting BLM's about their DPS being bad because the class outputs a shit load of DPS by non-bad players, you don't see BLM's constantly auto-kicked or locked out of content just for being a BLM and you don't see people in the group whining when have more than one BLM in the group since they all have great DPS potential depending on player ability.

BLM's in my experience are not suffering from what your hypothetical situation claims in game unlike BRD's and MCH are. Your hypothetical situation on BLM becomes irrelevant because it is not reflected as happening in game, if ever it does happen it would be a very rare occurrence while on the other hand for BRD and MCH it is a common occurrence. It actually annoys me when people claim BLM is broken or in a bad position because to me it's fallacy and most of the issues with BLM are simple QoL issues or some minor bug fixes. It may be true SMN is currently becoming popular but BLM players are not really suffering much if at all from it from what I have seen. I have only seen one PF group asking for SMN instead of BLM since 3.0 came out and that was because they already had a BLM in the group.

SE should fix any bugs with the skills, perhaps somewhere down the line address some QoL issues but they should do that with every class in general over time, I see nothing requiring urgent attention on BLM's other than the bug fixes, QoL on BLM can wait till other classes with bigger issues are dealt with.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

So you would rather totally screw your damage and rotations to save that offtank one GCD to finish off one add, compared to continuing to damage the boss because no one needs your help with the adds.

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No I wouldn't totally screw my damage and rotations. I would have my damage lowered slightly by one less Fire in my rotation, or a Fire instead of a Fire IV, or a Fire II swift Flare before getting back into rotation.

Weak adds are highly dependent on behavior, but almost always dealt with by BLM as well/better than anyone else.

• Spawn and stay at range - my department, gonna save a lot more than 1 GCD of the OT
• Spawn at range and must die asap - me again
• Spawn by boss - AoE on boss
• Spawn and charge but not essential to kill in under 5 seconds - stack on boss if possible and AoE

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

It depends on the player. I come from a testing and balance background, and thus like things to be balanced. Just like I advocated a number of changes to SMN last patch.

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Don't doubt that, I just remember other games where I've played in where even though the DPS is the same, the stigma of a class decides whether it would come to raids or not. How the community of an MMO works can easily be a separate study in social studies (if I'm not mistaken, it actually is.)


I've seen that happen a few times in this game too.

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Yet, the difference in DPS even if the BLM can turret the whole fight isn't much, and even if the BLM can do that all fight with no mechanics, you are better off bringing another melee. Case in point; T8.

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If we are talking in a pure hypothetical stance of having two skilled players, in a complete simulation where everyone else does the mechanics, then I'll give you a leg to stand there. Though when I was doing T8, our BLM was the one doing some of the mechanics along with our BRD and he managed to pull decent DPS. I can only imagine what he'd be if he had to turret. We had to SMN on that fight, so I cannot attest too much to their DPS on that one and only gather it via hearsay.

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It isn't too early, that is the point. We've had plenty of experience in raids and with the current rotation for all the classes to have a good idea where they are at. Hell, just look at the latest Alexander, where SMN are just better. Sure, easy content, but Savage will be similar fights with harder/more mechanics and checks.

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From what we can see right now, you are correct. Though we have no information on how different the savage fights will be. I mean, if they're just stronger version of what they are now, I may have to find myself sorely disappointed. And then I'd agree to your point. Though I wouldn't want to make assumptions such as that due to easy content, and from what I've see, nor do SE.

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That is still absolutely no excuse for a class being sub optimal. Its not about BLM being made more complicated, that isn't the issue whatsoever. The issue is the QoL changes, and the fact that for single target where BLM's are able to turret short of there being a cheese anti physical mechanic, a melee is just flat out better. Sure, people can do a with a bard, a ninja and a dragoon then go "wow look at how big my dps is, blm is fine", yet have lower group dps compared better composed groups

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I think if the QoL changes come in and a few of the bugs have been smoothed out, that would be enough to make BLM more attractive for such roles. Right now, there are some annoying ranged mechanics and melee do have it somewhat better than ranged on most fights, but I will stick to my point that instead of outright buffing the BLM like some people want, all it would need are a few changes. Nothing huge like some people genuinely want.

The reason why you can't directly buff BLM, is because they did that back in ARR and then when they started gearing up into the last levels, they were insanely good. IF we look at how gearing is going right now, we can expect another set from Alexander and our AF2 set from esoterics. That could very well make up for some very nice stat mixups and as a whole in turn, change how a lot of classes play as a whole.

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And yet, an equally skilled player with equal gear on other classes that can replace a BLM will just provide more to the raid - either by pulling more DPS in a fight and in some cases with more utility.

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Utility is one thing, but that's a very hypothetical situation. Even in top end, world first statics, there are always some players who are better than the others. Not by a huge margin, but enough to make a difference. As someone said before, theory is great, but the reality in practice is a completely different world.

I will admit that BLM is lacking in a lot of utility. Especially in this expansion. In ARR, quite a few classes lacked utility, but now, everyone but the BLM seems to have something.

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Both aren't great, but SMN will still do more if the boss is targeting.

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For big adds, yes. For small adds, it's a waste of Aetherflow, mana and time to do it. Though, if both were forced to turn off the boss, then yes, the SMN would gain more due to DoTs ticking.

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I've absolutely no idea who you are talking about; if whomever in the same FC as me, send me a screenshot.

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His name started with Wurs or something along those lines. I'll see if I can check when I get online tonight and let you know.

EDIT: Found his name, and he is indeed in your FC. I don't have a screenshot, but I'll tell you his name. I'll throw you a message online tonight.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Don't doubt that, I just remember other games where I've played in where even though the DPS is the same, the stigma of a class decides whether it would come to raids or not. How the community of an MMO works can easily be a separate study in social studies (if I'm not mistaken, it actually is.)

I've seen that happen a few times in this game too.

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And most serious and optimal raid groups will ignore stigma's and look at the facts. It usually takes a while for the majority of the community to catch on to things - look at when Ninja was first brought out for instance.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

If we are talking in a pure hypothetical stance of having two skilled players, in a complete simulation where everyone else does the mechanics, then I'll give you a leg to stand there. Though when I was doing T8, our BLM was the one doing some of the mechanics along with our BRD and he managed to pull decent DPS. I can only imagine what he'd be if he had to turret. We had to SMN on that fight, so I cannot attest too much to their DPS on that one and only gather it via hearsay.

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SMN's would have been decent had their mana issues had been fixed; especially in T8 Savage where the dread had to be away from the boss. BLM had more movement back then when we actually had procs, lower cast times and far more spellspeed.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

From what we can see right now, you are correct. Though we have no information on how different the savage fights will be. I mean, if they're just stronger version of what they are now, I may have to find myself sorely disappointed. And then I'd agree to your point. Though I wouldn't want to make assumptions such as that due to easy content, and from what I've see, nor do SE.

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I don't think they will generally just be "stronger" - but I don't think they will be completely different. Think of the difference between normal second coil and savage - hopefully a bigger gap given how easy Alex Normal seems to be. But they are fair assumptions to make based on past content and current content.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

I think if the QoL changes come in and a few of the bugs have been smoothed out, that would be enough to make BLM more attractive for such roles. Right now, there are some annoying ranged mechanics and melee do have it somewhat better than ranged on most fights, but I will stick to my point that instead of outright buffing the BLM like some people want, all it would need are a few changes. Nothing huge like some people genuinely want.

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I certainly think the QoL changes must come first, but even if they do come in, a Melee is going to be more attractive for most groups.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

The reason why you can't directly buff BLM, is because they did that back in ARR and then when they started gearing up into the last levels, they were insanely good. IF we look at how gearing is going right now, we can expect another set from Alexander and our AF2 set from esoterics. That could very well make up for some very nice stat mixups and as a whole in turn, change how a lot of classes play as a whole.

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BLM's still didn't pull Melee level DPS - the only time we competed was when there was AOE in the turns. Melee's will always scale better with gear given the damage formula (assuming that hasn't changed). But you do have a point with stats; some more spellspeed gear would certainly be welcomed.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

Utility is one thing, but that's a very hypothetical situation. Even in top end, world first statics, there are always some players who are better than the others. Not by a huge margin, but enough to make a difference. As someone said before, theory is great, but the reality in practice is a completely different world.

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A fair point

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

I will admit that BLM is lacking in a lot of utility. Especially in this expansion. In ARR, quite a few classes lacked utility, but now, everyone but the BLM seems to have something.

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I mean, sure, we have cross class virus and eye for an eye (the latter being more useful); but Lethagy is largely useless. Apocastasis (I can never spell it) is good, but its not as essential as, say dragon kick (which boosts the dps of a 2nd monk) - and you have Dragoon with Disembowel and Battle Litany, and Ninja with Trick Attack. All are really good examples of DPS utility. I certainly think, given how movement impaired BLM are they should be able to compete DPS wise.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

For big adds, yes. For small adds, it's a waste of Aetherflow, mana and time to do it. Though, if both were forced to turn off the boss, then yes, the SMN would gain more due to DoTs ticking.

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That is why I mentioned adds with more HP so you can just apply another set of DoT's.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

His name started with Wurs or something along those lines. I'll see if I can check when I get online tonight and let you know.

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I should be online an hour or so, hopefully :)

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Weak adds are highly dependent on behavior, but almost always dealt with by BLM as well/better than anyone else.

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Did you level up playing only ARR content with ARR only skills?
The only time now black mage shine at killing weak adds is when they are stacked enough to flare them. other than that black mage are awful at killing single target weak adds because scathe is shit, they die before you can cast fire IV and most of the time if you cast fire I, It will land and deal 2.5k damage when the add has 5-10% hp left

About low max HP adds being troublesome to kill with BLM ...

Yes, it is more troublesome than before by a long shot. However, this is part of the higher skill cap, you have to coordinate and strategize with your static (if you're in a PUG, sorry) so casts aren't wasted. It's rough and you will lose a cast here or there depending on the content but it's workable. Honestly, SMN is even worse at these phases unless you can Deathflare multiple enemies so it doesn't bother me too much.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

About low max HP adds being troublesome to kill with BLM ...

Yes, it is more troublesome than before by a long shot. However, this is part of the higher skill cap, you have to coordinate and strategize with your static (if you're in a PUG, sorry) so casts aren't wasted. It's rough and you will lose a cast here or there depending on the content but it's workable. Honestly, SMN is even worse at these phases unless you can Deathflare multiple enemies so it doesn't bother me too much.

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You're better off staying on the boss unless your static asign you to kill a specific add like the ones in Floor 4 Phase 2. For ravana i dont even look at the spirit gana and i can only cast one fire IV before the moon gana die. So if by coordination you mean *dont attack this one add, leave it to the blm* then sure i guess.

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Originally Posted by hallena

Did you level up playing only ARR content with ARR only skills?
The only time now black mage shine at killing weak adds is when they are stacked enough to flare them. other than that black mage are awful at killing single target weak adds because scathe is shit, they die before you can cast fire IV and most of the time if you cast fire I, It will land and deal 2.5k damage when the add has 5-10% hp left

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With no party coordination, you're right. But which is a bigger loss for the party, the monk using a shoulder tackle to a distant mob and hitting it with a couple pops, then running back to the boss, or the BLM swapping targets to pop the add down and back onto the boss seamlessly?

That's exactly what I mean. In Ravana my priority when choosing my next F4 as BLM is Moons with 40% or higher HP > regular butterflies far away from the group that melee aren't going to get > Ravana > help if shit's hitting the fan.

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Originally Posted by HaroldSaxon

I don't want the class to be OP at all.

Snip

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I Hate when I cast Flare then Transpose Im Still in Astral Fire. Because Flare has a delay after you cast it, if you cast transpose You go into Astral Ice then right back into Astral Fire because Flare popped. So after casting Flare its imperative that a wait to make sure Flare goes off before I use Transpose or else Im standing still looking stupid waiting for mana to regen so I need to Convert/pot (if I haven't already).

Pretty sure it was the gigantic spell speed nerf, while smn isn't penalized for it as much, it isn't qoL, it's fundamental mechanics of the class, every boss has a bunch of movement in this expansion, which obviously favors the Smn.

The bottom line is, you can still do it, but when you're losing stacks, running around, losing enochain + other things, the smns dots will continue to tick while you are struggling to get a cast off. These are the facts at this point in time, play what you will.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

With no party coordination, you're right. , the monk using a shoulder tackle to a distant mob and hitting it with a couple pops, then running back to the boss, or the BLM swapping targets to pop the add down and back onto the boss seamlessly?

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Which add would that be? Because both the spirit gana and the adds from Floor 4 run in melee range and the adds in floor 1 spawn on the boss

As for your But which is a bigger loss for the party comment. It depend. If your fire IV get interupted. that is 4-7k damage wasted. If that interuption force you to spam fire I, That is 1-2k less damage per cast compared to fire IV aswell as costing 400 more mana locking you out of your fouth fire IV. Wasting another 4-7k damage.

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Originally Posted by hallena

Which add would that be? Because both the spirit gana and the adds from Floor 4 run in melee range

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You mean AoE range of the boss?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

You mean AoE range of the boss?

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If you stack up the add in floor 4 i have some bad news for you

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Originally Posted by hallena

If you stack up the add in floor 4 i have some bad news for you

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The adds from Floor 4 don't run into melee range, the melee run to them. Are these the adds that aren't worth your cast time to kill?

What's the reason for no AoE on the gana?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

The adds from Floor 4 don't run into melee range, the melee run to them. Are these the adds that aren't worth your cast time to kill?

What's the reason for no AoE on the gana?

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This whole argument is about BLM attacking adds when everyone else is. floor 4 is ok because i am assigned to kill one add so nobody will kill it and cancel my cast. Regardless the floor 4 adds has agro, so they will run so the healer which is when our 2 melee pick one each. the spirit gana are killed on sight by our bard/warrior

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Originally Posted by hallena

This whole argument is about BLM attacking adds when everyone else is. floor 4 is ok because i am assigned to kill one add so nobody will kill it and cancel my cast. the spirit gana are killed on sight by our bard/warrior

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There's 4 gana, they swarm the boss. Are you honestly saying that a BLM taking them down with AoE isn't one of the best, or the best way to take care of them?

Floor 4 even in PUG - cast on an add, if someone jumps on that mob during your cast swap over to a different one seamlessly. In any event it would be better for the run for the BLM to take a far add while a melee stays on the boss rather than vice versa.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

There's 4 gana, they swarm the boss. Are you honestly saying that a BLM taking them down with AoE isn't one of the best, or the best way to take care of them?

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In a case of stacking up, i find it better for our summoner to deathflare them because
1) Its potency isnt reduced
2) deathflare doesnt reduce his damage dealt to 0 for 6 seconds
3) deathflare doesnt require swiftcast to be useful

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Originally Posted by hallena

In a case of stacking up, i find it better for our summoner to deathflare them because
1) Its potency isnt reduced
2) deathflare doesnt reduce his damage dealt to 0 for 6 seconds
3) deathflare doesnt require swiftcast to be useful

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But will need to be perfectly timed so as to not bring him out of Dreadwyrm Trance too early, it's a bigger than you may realize and may lose him insane amounts of DPS potential if it A: doesn't time up properly or B: ifh e's too early and has to burn Aetherflows fast and then be stuck with 0 Aetherflow for 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

But will need to be perfectly timed so as to not bring him out of Dreadwyrm Trance too early, it's a bigger than you may realize and may lose him insane amounts of DPS potential if it A: doesn't time up properly or B: ifh e's too early and has to burn Aetherflows fast and then be stuck with 0 Aetherflow for 30 seconds.

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In blm's case. Flaring with a full mana pool is bad. It cost you about 17k single target worth of damage. Assuming no crit. Not counting the 6 second of doing barely any damage if convert isnt up.
Flaring when your enochian is about to run out is bad. It will make you want to kill yourself
Flaring with no swiftcast is bad, but not that big of a deal
Flaring when in umbral ice is bad, (ive only mentioned this one because you cant just flare right away. it take 3s to cast fire III but even then you'll have to flare with a full mana pool. Which is bad

Its a big deal for both but some people seem to think there is no concequance(spelling) to flaring on demand. Both summoner and blm can prepare in advance for it, but deathflare is better than flare for taking care of the adds

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Originally Posted by hallena

In a case of stacking up, i find it better for our summoner to deathflare them because
1) Its potency isnt reduced
2) deathflare doesnt reduce his damage dealt to 0 for 6 seconds
3) deathflare doesnt require swiftcast to be useful

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SMN is also a great way to deal with them, and you said you used BRD and WAR instead?

1 - Fire II potency isn't reduced, Flare potency reduction is a joke
2 - Fire II doesn't reduce your damage to zero for any amount of time. Swiftflare doesn't either if you hold off a convert for it, or have an ether to get off a B3. Plus you've done damage to the boss in this time. How much time off the boss are the BRD and WAR combining for, more than 6 seconds?
3 - Fire II and Flare don't require Swiftcast to be useful

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

SMN is also a great way to deal with them, and you said you used BRD and WAR instead?

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And i said in a case of stacking up. as if we decide to stack them up, a summoner can do it better.

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2 - Fire II doesn't reduce your damage to zero for any amount of time. Swiftflare doesn't either if you hold off a convert for it, or have an ether to get off a B3.

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Both Xpots and convert on ravana are either used in the opener or when he take 50% more damage.

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Flare potency reduction is a joke

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Why do i even respond at this point

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Originally Posted by hallena

And i said in a case of stacking up. as if we decide to stack them up, a summoner can do it better.

Both Xpots and convert on ravana are either used in the opener or when he take 50% more damage.

Why do i even respond at this point

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And there's still Fire II, hell there's very nice AoE abilities for all the jobs now, I'm not sure why you wouldn't stack.

The 17k ST damage loss from casing Flare on full MP, really? Maybe if you cast flare, hit transpose, do nothing for 15 seconds, cast Fire 3, then jump back in.