Hopefully Alexander/Savage will be 24 mans.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

I'd like to see the 24 man and the 3.1 and onwards be released at the current ilvl so everyone doesn't over gear them again like in 2.x.

Just that change would make it more challenging.

Changing 8 person to 24 person content? You probably want to be carried like it's possible for the rest to carry some players through CT. (Which, imo is why 8 person Alex normal will find players struggling as they are used tobeing carried by 20+ people and overgearing).

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Not changing any content. Adding. Carried lol..that's cute it made me laugh.

For the love of god.

No.

I'd rather see more challenging content added in 4 mans than 24.

24 man raids in this game are the worst kind of bs after hunts. There were weeks I couldn't even bother finishing the 3 CTs for my carboncoat.

Why limit it to just 8 or 24?
10 & 12 seem like numbers that interesting setups can be built around also.
e.g. (3t/3h/4d) or (3t/3h/6d)

I hope SE experiments with different numbers in the future

All I got from OP was:
'Hopefully I will be able to get carried through Alexander by 23 others because I couldn't pull my weight in 'boring' 8 man raids' :/

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Originally Posted by LTEvil

It's not an attack you are using "I" as reasoning for content not being placed in. That is how you come off. And my responses Are formed as such because of your snide remarks in your other post.

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My only "snide" remarks came after your already snippy post. But even in said posts I didn't question your intelligence nor your social ability and those, my dear, are indeed personal attacks.

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Can't take it don't throw it.

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Oh man. I have the perfect book quote for this: "I'd rather take (insert swear word for poop)s than throw them. My hands get less dirty that way."

Anyway, you seem pretty determined on making this into attacks and I'm not going to put up with the high schooler attitude. My business with you is done. Have a good 4th of July.

Reply to selli.

You responded to say you weren't being snide while being snide? Now you are call me a high schooler? If you are sensitive don't argue. Your first post posed questions in a snide way. And no my questions can not be personal attacks. And my last statement was based off of your own comments. If you were offended say that. Don't try to play word games because I don't know you so I can only argue your personal reasoning from What you provide. If you don't want to be argued with like that do not use I when expressing flaws in ideas.
Sorry you are upset. Have a good fourth of July.

Ps still waiting for your reason why it shouldn't be added?

If Alexander Savage were to be a 24 man raid, it would need to be as easy as Cloud of Darkness with the same loot lockout, rather than Coils.

Sometime's it's already difficult to get everyone in a static of 8 to show up on time (these 7 other players you form a friendly relationship with, which makes it easy to forgive them when they're incapable of showing up on time). Imagine 24, where there's a chance of 5 or more people not showing up on time or at all for one reason or another. You either HAVE TO skip raid night for those people, or risk locking them out of content by taking PuGs. The battle mechanics would also need to be watered down, as most Coil fights have that one mechanic that just needs one person to screw everything up. Imagine 23 people wiping because one person didn't follow a mechanic? It would be frustrating and progression would never be made.

I don't really know how to feel about this.

I used to do end game 25 man raiding on WoW and it just doesn't feel right to raid at 8 when 10 man raiding was already considered more casual back there. Add to that the fact that 8 man raiding being the hardest content also prevents jobs from becoming too unique, and thus mechanics on a specific encounter will revolve around a role instead of a class. Most of the time it's the same thing on WoW but you'll have sometimes your class's time to shine, like I remember having to prevent spiders from reaching the boss on Beth'tilac HM with my fellow hunters. It mostly depends on the dev's creativity but it's something you can't really do on FFXIV without people feeling left out.

At the same time, WoW end game raiding pretty much requires you to join a raiding guild by applying like you would a job. You need strict schedules if you want to reliably raid with 25 people, so you better really want to raid. For me after almost a year it became too much like a second job so I just quit.
10 man, and 8 man, usually offers a more laid back attitude and easier conviviality. I also really like the idea of statics, if I want to do harder content I won't have to quit my FC.

Honestly the bigger issue right now is the lack of variety in raiding mechanics.

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Originally Posted by LTEvil

Not changing any content. Adding. Carried lol..that's cute it made me laugh.

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Yes, changing. not adding
8 man Alex savage is already finished and just wait that SE turn on the switch. Making it now 24 man would mean changing it with months of delay.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Yes, changing. not adding
8 man Alex savage is already finished and just wait that SE turn on the switch. Making it now 24 man would mean changing it with months of delay.

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I thought you were responding to me sorry. I was off topic because I was bringing up a different approach. Which is what think selli miss understood. I was saying later on we should add a raid that is a middle ground between ct and coil that is 24 man. I wanted this to be Df locked so I called it a savage. Since savage content will never enter df from what I understand. I was hoping this would be fc content or semi hardcore raid content for those who have friends that are good but not good enough for 8 man. It's an infancy idea. That I need to think more on.

They won't be, thank god.

Coordinating 25 people to do difficult content is like herding a bunch of headless turkeys. I learned that from wow, I'll never understand the appeal, I guess it's different when you don't have to lead it or worry about replacing when a fourth of the raid doesn't show up on time.

Plus it's so much less personal, you don't get to bond or make friends. It's just a mass of people talking over each other. :|

Keep 24 man raids easy mode pugfests.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

They won't be, thank god.

Coordinating 25 people to do difficult content is like herding a bunch of headless turkeys. I learned that from wow, I'll never understand the appeal, I guess it's different when you don't have to lead it or worry about replacing when a fourth of the raid doesn't show up on time.

Plus it's so much less personal, you don't get to bond or make friends. It's just a mass of people talking over each other. :|

Keep 24 man raids easy mode pugfests.

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The experience is different with an organised skilled set of players, this is my experience in WoW, fully organised skilled 24 other people in 25 man raids is very good fun, I honestly do not care for the state of PUGs.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

One of the reasons its hard is because 8 man coils were so exclusive and picky. It is hard to find 8 people, and since classes are better then others in 8 man content you have to not only be restrictive in classes, you have to be elitist in skills as well. You can't just bring anyone.

A 24 man is a lot less restrictive, even allows you to form alliances and makes the game more open.

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Why do you think 24 man is less restrictive? Restrictiveness is just a factor of difficulty, 24 man raid with difficulty of FCOB will be as restrictive as 8 man.
And some classes are better than others in a given situation. Be it 4 man party, 8 man raid, 24 or 40 man raids. Party optimization was a thing in WoW 40 man raids, some classes were more welcomed than others. So size of raid does not really change anything.

Please no 24 man alex...people complain enough getting 8 people together now you want people to get 24? good luck with that.

[QUOTE=LTEvil;3104311]Yeah but the idea need to be rounded more.

As far as what Martin says.
1.That one person can mess up. Large raids aren't as strict as small ones generally.
Yeah not saying that in 8 man 1 can mess up but it's easier to fill up a 8 decent man group then 24 man group and size dosn't not have anything to do with strictness.
2.Well you wouldn't have to do it. It's Mainly something I want for FC's to take part in.
You mean you want 8+ more members of your FC going into Savage? your funeral. You ever attempted Savage? Or even done any of the raids before increased iLV or echo was added? Savage is makes WOD on day 1 look like a holiday dream.
3.That's easily sorted out due to fight mechanics. Plenty of ways to put extra roles to work.
lol no, why do you think there is only 1 Tank per CT and WOD now?
4. I can't imagine 24 man speaking on TS because usually raids have a leader and. A few others who speak and that's it. Even for 8 man's. To have other talk is inefficient.
Then you never came across a social Raid group then. IF we had 24 people on TS we'll never get shit done just talk about random stuff.
6.Then you find new people. It's not do or die content. More like variation.
No, no and No. I like progress, I enjoy progress I do not enjoy progress then reset said progress cuz 2 members had a fallen out, 3 aways on Holiday and 1 forgot about it.
Variatioin? What do you mean by that?

You can simply ignore the OP. Once in a while he always brings up the same topic. Hard content will be 8-man. Easy peace of cake content will then be 24 man. Keep it. Already hard enough to organize 8 ppls schedules these days.

Juuuuust sharing so OP can see that the raid will be 8-man.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...e4&app=desktop

And, with that, you can watch the clear rates for Savage go from pretty damn low to basically non-existent. No thanks. I have no desire to find 23 other people to do difficult content with. I'm fine with the 24-mans being more about faceroll-ish fun.

nope, would fail. 24 ppl in appropriate gear would be a challenge in terms of dps maybe, however even when half of those get very well geared, it would become a stompfest. aswell as the fact that mechanics would have to be watered down to the point of mundane.

As it is with an 8 man raid, they can set it up so everyone gets a moment of responsibility each in a raid, usually at least. Chances are with an 8 man, the ball is in your park at some point and if u mess up it's a wipe. This just isn't gonna happen with 24 man. There would be mad carrying in a 24 man.

I like how people say challenging content cannot be done when other games with way less of a population can do it. I think people are afraid honestly of more then 8+ man's because its something new and something they are not used to.

8 man's are honestly WAY too exclusive, yes every person has a role however that means that the content has to be developed for everyone to be in sync. Which means content becomes more "Learn to take the test and do it." for content like that it has to be done that way.

If they continue with 8 mans, they are going to have to literally re-balance a lot of classes because they are not honestly equal. However, if the main content goes to 24 man's a LOT more classes will be viable do to raid-wide buffs, especially classes like Astrologen for example.

24 man content in this game is more popular then coils. Fact. Yes, almost everyone did them because they were easier and good to get into. Which is not really a bad thing.

8 man content is exclusive, and only a few percent of the server could do it. That is very bad, and breeds a ton of elitism which I even see in the thread.

24 man raids are way less likely to kick and replace someone, and more accepting to let a new player in their raid static. Truth. This is simply human and mob nature, even if the raids are harder or as hard as coil they will be more accepting of pugs and new players.

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Originally Posted by Greven

I can understand your point of view but instead of removing the 8 players endgame raids I'd suggest to add a savage versione of the next 24 players raid.

This because the 24 players, other than nearly impossibile to organize, are very impersonal. I like to do endgame with my close friends and I'd drop it if it needed 24 players.

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I have known my raiding friends for 9 years now. I guess that is impersonal, however can you please not just "make up things?" thank you. =) Just saying whatever you want doesn't win you a prize. You need to actually experience something before commenting on it.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

If Alexander Savage were to be a 24 man raid, it would need to be as easy as Cloud of Darkness with the same loot lockout, rather than Coils.

Sometime's it's already difficult to get everyone in a static of 8 to show up on time (these 7 other players you form a friendly relationship with, which makes it easy to forgive them when they're incapable of showing up on time). Imagine 24, where there's a chance of 5 or more people not showing up on time or at all for one reason or another. You either HAVE TO skip raid night for those people, or risk locking them out of content by taking PuGs. The battle mechanics would also need to be watered down, as most Coil fights have that one mechanic that just needs one person to screw everything up. Imagine 23 people wiping because one person didn't follow a mechanic? It would be frustrating and progression would never be made.

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What is this fear though? Why do 24-man raids "HAVE" to be easy, because they are impossible? I guess my raiding in Everquest was all a big dream and lie. <3

Especially in TSO, which had raids where one person could screw it up. Yet 20% of the population could clear some of them, NOW MIND YOU! They didn't clear the entire zones, they only cleared about half the zones or a named after. However - why should you be able to clear an entire zone? Some people and raids could only clear one named which gave them gear to tackle the next named in another zone. Which was a really fun concept and added a lot of life to the game.

24-mans are a lot more fun because you can have one person screw up and still win with good players. Did you notice how the new groups are designed? If you lose a player you can still do the fights except they become WAY harder unlike level 50 zones. They have sustain and other things, but they are fun fights. The new zones fights are fun, even if you fail a mechanic it doesn't fully punish you, skill can pull you out of a mess.

World of Darkness whilst everyone says is faceroll easy. Imagine would it would of been like if we went in with ilevel 70-90 gear instead of i130 gear. It wouldn't of been as "faceroll" then would it? If the average player and raid went in with what they started to go in with with coils the tune would of probably changed.

Try doing a 24-man raid of World of Darkness with full ilevel 90 gear and tell me how easy it is. It is much more challenging then people give it credit for. Really, you came in with ilvl130 gear, remember that.

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Originally Posted by LTEvil

Yeah but the idea need to be rounded more.

As far as what Martin says.
1.That one person can mess up. Large raids aren't as strict as small ones generally.
2.Well you wouldn't have to do it. It's Mainly something I want for fcs to take part in.
3.That's easily sorted out due to fight mechanics. Plenty of ways to put extra roles to work.
4. I can't imagine 24 man speaking on TS because usually raids have a leader and. A few others who speak and that's it. Even for 8 man's. To have other talk is inefficient.
6.Then you find new people. It's not do or die content. More like variation.

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People are very against it because they went in with gear that is much better then the gear was intended to be done with and call it a cakewalk. People are also afraid of different kinds of content in the game even though the new classes are designed for raids. Many class abilities have been changed and adjusted to benefit more then 8 people and people I think are afraid of that. The developers saw how popular the 24-mans were compared to 8 mans and didn't like how exclusive 8 mans were, and those are the facts. However nobody knows the future yet. Just don't wear or stress yourself out. You are 100% right! <3

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

Go take a look at wow and what happened in WoD when Mythic suddenly required 20 when heroic(previous hard difficulty before they added flexible raids in MoP) had only required 10 all the way back to Cataclysm.

Recruitment issues abound and top world first race guilds disbanding over it.

Bad idea.

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Statics already have recruitment issues, I don't see anyone inviting for anything here and there is already drama in the game with 8 mans. People are being kicked out of raids already for playing inefficient classes and there is already tons of drama. You just don't see it as much because 8 mans are so exclusive. However if your telling me that there is not drama you are in fact lying. There is LOTs of elitism and drama. I have heard so many stories about people being kicked and replaced.

I also would not reference WoW, since it honestly has no content worth mentioning. At all. Its raids are easier then WoD, might as well be loot pinotta zones.

Since the other side of the same coin has the same issues. Isn't it also a "bad idea?" since you didn't exactly have anything to back up your point?

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Originally Posted by Velthice

If 8 mans aren't your thing than 8 mans aren't your thing. 8 mans were designed for a different audience from yourself, and that audience has a blast with them. Fun is subjective. Who are you to say they're having fun wrong and should have that means of having fun taken away from them?

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I don't think you understand, I never said to remove them. Did I? <3

I said that we should be focusing as 24 man's as the main content because it would make the classes a lot more balanced overall. 8 man's means several classes will need redesigned. Bards in raids for example are a lot more valuable then bards in 8 mans.

I can understand your point of view but instead of removing the 8 players endgame raids I'd suggest to add a savage versione of the next 24 players raid.

This because the 24 players, other than nearly impossibile to organize, are very impersonal. I like to do endgame with my close friends and I'd drop it if it needed 24 players.

Go take a look at wow and what happened in WoD when Mythic suddenly required 20 when heroic(previous hard difficulty before they added flexible raids in MoP) had only required 10 all the way back to Cataclysm.

Recruitment issues abound and top world first race guilds disbanding over it.

Bad idea.

If 8 mans aren't your thing than 8 mans aren't your thing. 8 mans were designed for a different audience from yourself, and that audience has a blast with them. Fun is subjective. Who are you to say they're having fun wrong and should have that means of having fun taken away from them?

I wiped more times in bone dragon than in T13.

I'd rather kill myself than seeing this implemented.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

If 8 mans aren't your thing than 8 mans aren't your thing. 8 mans were designed for a different audience from yourself, and that audience has a blast with them. Fun is subjective. Who are you to say they're having fun wrong and should have that means of having fun taken away from them?

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They are already developing the 8 man. However I am asking the harder version to be 24-man. =)

I never asked for 8 man content to be removed. I want more dynamic content to the game and more content. Not just one type, indeed 8 mans are not for me. However that doesn't mean I want them gone or removed.

To me, 8 people content is pretty much just a group. Not even a raid. However then again groups in EQ2 were 6 people.?

Raiding should be harder and far more rewarding then just group content, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I don't think you understand, I never said to remove them. Did I? <3

I said that we should be focusing as 24 man's as the main content because it would make the classes a lot more balanced overall. 8 man's means several classes will need redesigned. Bards in raids for example are a lot more valuable then bards in 8 mans.

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I don't think you understand. If Alex was the casual 24 man raid, people would treat it like they do crystal tower and whatever the difficult 8 man raid is would become viewed as "the main raid"

Anyway it's a moot point since square already does a fantastic job of catering to both sides. If your complaint is simply that we aren't getting g the 24 man first, then I'd have to guess the reasoning behind that is the people who want the difficult 8 man stuff are the same people that likely to rushed to 60 and start gearing up already.

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Originally Posted by Velthice

I don't think you understand. If Alex was the casual 24 man raid, people would treat it like they do crystal tower and whatever the difficult 8 man raid is would become viewed as "the main raid"

Anyway it's a moot point since square already does a fantastic job of catering to both sides. If your complaint is simply that we aren't getting g the 24 man first, then I'd have to guess the reasoning behind that is the people who want the difficult 8 man stuff are the same people that likely to rushed to 60 and start gearing up already.

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I feel like you don't understand what I mean. I want "hard" raids. <3

There are a lot more people who loved World of Darkness then Coils. Actually no. I am in Ilevel 175 already on my character and I really don't like 8-man content. Another assumption.

I am waiting eagerly for the real fun content, not the elitism brand. <3

Not saying I won't do 8 man content. However I find it boring that there isn't any real raiding in this game yet. Disappointing.

8 Person content though, is not raiding. Its not even x2 (12 players.) Its more like an advanced group. Might as well call it a squad, but it isn't a raid.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

real raiding.

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this discussion has been played to death.

simply put raiding is what the developers say it is. coil/alex is real raiding.

the number of players have no play in the matter.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I feel like you don't understand what I mean. I want "hard" raids. <3

There are a lot more people who loved World of Darkness then Coils. Actually no. I am in Ilevel 175 already on my character and I really don't like 8-man content. Another assumption.

I am waiting eagerly for the real fun content, not the elitism brand. <3

Not saying I won't do 8 man content. However I find it boring that there isn't any real raiding in this game yet. Disappointing.

8 Person content though, is not raiding. Its not even x2 (12 man.) Its more like an advanced group. Might as well call it a squad, but it isn't a raid.

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Well like I said, fun is subjective. I hope they add something that appeals to you in a way that doesn't intrude on any other piece of content.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

this discussion has been played to death.

simply put raiding is what the developers say it is. coil/alex is real raiding.

the number of players have no play in the matter.

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Raid:
"Large Scale."
"Stealing, Looting"
"Sudden Attack."
"Warfare."

Squad:
"Smaller Group."
"Special Task."
"A small group of people organized in a common endeavor or activity."
" the smallest military formation."

It is /not/ real raiding. It is more like a Squad, down to the point of your a specialized group designed to go in and take down high level creatures with a small group. I am asking for real raiding. (Anything above 20 players.), that is hard and fun for me. If Crystal Tower was released before coils it would of been really hard as well. People probably couldn't of cleared it for a long time, especially if the gear wasn't so high.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

it's a raid. like i said this has been played to death. but continue :)

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Well if Alphinaud can consider 5 people an 'army' then I guess its fair you (and apparently the developers, because you quote them like the scripture, even though they have changed what they have said a lot of times.) can consider 8 people a raid. Maybe I can too???? Sorry, I had to make that joke.

I for one think it is a translation error.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

It is /not/ real raiding. It is more like a Squad, down to the point of your a specialized group designed to go in and take down high level creatures with a small group.

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it's a raid. like i said this has been played to death. but continue :)

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Originally Posted by LTEvil

Not changing any content. Adding. Carried lol..that's cute it made me laugh.

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Just look back any time you did the 24 person content and watch how many do the bare minimum. They are only able to do that because theres numbers for them to be a drop in an ocean. They won't have that in 8 person Alex even if it is the same difficulty as WoD.

I hate to suggest it, but what about a normal and hard mode version?

The hard mode could have a pretty restrictive iLevel requirement to get in, along with x number of normal mode clears to gain access. Idk.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

it's a raid. like i said this has been played to death. but continue :)

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So much this...

The devs brand it a raid, it's a raid. No outside definition means anything. They deem what is what, and that's just how it is.

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Originally Posted by Slappah

So much this...

The devs brand it a raid, it's a raid. No outside definition means anything. They deem what is what, and that's just how it is.

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A terribile dragon attacks you. <3

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I never asked for 8 man content to be removed. I want more dynamic content to the game and more content. Not just one type, indeed 8 mans are not for me. However that doesn't mean I want them gone or removed.

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You did kind of imply that you want it removed, however.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

8 man content is exclusive, and only a few percent of the server could do it. That is very bad, and breeds a ton of elitism which I even see in the thread.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

You did kind of imply that you want it removed, however.

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I'm mostly implying asking for more content, I will imply that seeking less is counterproductive.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I'm mostly implying asking for more content, I will imply that seeking less is counterproductive.

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More content is always positive, we probably should make a more detailed post about this however. yes?
To avoid things like what happened to Selli. People are far too touchy for outright arguing on this forum. Should maybe make a long detailed post about how it would be put to task.

As you can see Adam is a prime example of the type of person I was talking about. Not sure why it is hard to simply say something offends you. When people say report I think "I need an adult." I always get a chuckle out of it. Sorry you are offended.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I'm mostly implying asking for more content, I will imply that seeking less is counterproductive.

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No, you have to understand that others have differing perspectives and opinions. Your post implies the removal of 8-man raids for the sole purpose of, "breeds a ton of elitism," and not even considering those who actually like it. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean it's the end of the world, m'kay?

Personally, they would be better off leaving 24-man raids as they are now and stick them in the DF. Sure, more content would be nice, but you have to balance it around the idea that some may get left out, or some may not be able to participate due to lack of numbers. Not something a lot of people would like, I'd wager. Especially of the tediousness of getting that large amount of players to commit to a schedule.

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Edit:

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Originally Posted by LTEvil

People are far too touchy for outright arguing on this forum.

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Others are free to agree or disagree; but under no circumstances should you ever berate them for having a different opinion. There wasn't much of an argument since it was mostly people agreeing or disagreeing. Then this post came along and sparked an argument:

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Originally Posted by LTEvil

If your 8 man has drama. Get a better 8 man. (Snip)

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Although it probably wasn't in your intentions, it was taken wrongly due to the wording you used. This can be considered harassment and is by all means reportable as it is against the rules (to which I have already reported). So, please, watch what you say before posting anything.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

They are already developing the 8 man. However I am asking the harder version to be 24-man. =)

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You do realize that the hard mode/savage Alexander is probably all but finished at this point right? They're implementing it a couple of weeks after the normal mode/story Alexander goes in. Making it 24 man at this point... yeah no. Not gonna happen. They'd basically have to scrap everything except the graphics work.

24 man raids in general... no thanks. It would be a logistical nightmare. The Year of the Pug would dawn in Eorzea because good luck to the average player putting together a 24 man static (maybe up to 30 if you want to have some alternates to fill in for no-shows). Contrary to what you said earlier, a 24 man raiding static wouldn't make a lot of us any more likely to take someone with no experience, at least not if the rest of the party has already progressed. It wouldn't make us less likely to kick someone that was repeatedly screwing up either, because that person is holding everyone else back. It would just make it more of a pain in the ass to 1) recruit skilled players and 2) replace players that aren't as skilled as they initially claimed. I honestly think it would make the endgame community even more insular than it already is, and pugs would still be out in the cold looking for a way in.

It would also make it more of a pain in the ass to learn outside of static because 24 man learning party. Even having 8 random players that are all new to a fight can make it feel like you're herding cats. 24 would be even less productive. This game is aimed at a more casual playerbase, and 24 man statics are most definitely not casual.