Dear Yoshi P: What is your vision?

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Originally Posted by weeble

what user just said again lol, will we see party play in our missions an story like ffxi, will there ever be full 8man party grinds again. they spoke pvp but what it will be like? prior it would of been thought to not be a big thing in it, maybe mini games, but the direction in weak content might have them think they need to make up for it in better pvp like in other fail pve games. course i'm looking forward to hamlets, ...that we still know not much about but that is already on way. do they really need to keep us in suspense, ...we are playing a game that we bought and failed launch ...we still playing and waiting, there is no need for the antics ...just tell us ..i don't need a thread every week little by little or any of that, just lay it out.... who sits on forums all day when a game launches right? no one, i never was on a forum a day in life for ffxi or any mmo after. stop pussyfooting around and just give it to us.

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Those are all specific questions, not a vision.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I've read pretty well every update and interview and all I see is someone saying "We are fixing the game, it will be fun, we wont tell you when or how but someday it will be fun"

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Then you're not reading between the lines.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Personally I don't care. I want the game to be successful though and as someone who works in marketing I realize that not having a clear vision when a bunch of better more competitive games are coming out will result in a disaster even if the game gets good.

I'm not asking for him to lay out a bunch of crazy details. Just simply state what his plans for the next year or so are in general. like what he -wishes- he could do. just so players can get an understanding of what FFXIV will be like in the future.

To put it another way, if Yoshi P had to advertise this game 2 years from now what would the ad be like? Would there be epic dragon fights? Zones for pvp? tons of raids? etc.

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He's already stated his plans. Read the last two letters. Hell 1.201.21 may take up to 6 months, that's half a year. I'm sure he's wants the epic battles and PvP(he said he wants to bring PvP into the game) but he's probably not worried about that stuff right now because he wants to put stuff in the game that should have been there from the get go. The man hasn't been on the job for a year yet and you mouthbreathers are going crazy.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Then you're not reading between the lines.

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If you're so skilled at reading between the lines then instead of telling people "go do the leg work its really there i swear it" write out what you personally think his vision is from reading between the lines.

otherwise the argument is pointless. I can just as easily argue that if you read between the lines he is clearly stating the game will be shut down soon. Completely untrue, but when you read between the line you "interpret" and that's not always correct.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

Personally I don't care. I want the game to be successful though and as someone who works in marketing I realize that not having a clear vision when a bunch of better more competitive games are coming out will result in a disaster even if the game gets good.

I'm not asking for him to lay out a bunch of crazy details. Just simply state what his plans for the next year or so are in general. like what he -wishes- he could do. just so players can get an understanding of what FFXIV will be like in the future.

To put it another way, if Yoshi P had to advertise this game 2 years from now what would the ad be like? Would there be epic dragon fights? Zones for pvp? tons of raids? etc.

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He's done this. He'll ask his marketing director if he needs to make an official announcement. More than likely he'll do this once they start charging.

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Originally Posted by weeble

but that one thing made this game absolutely better in my opinion. but either way minus that what do u have... nothing right now. what would we have in same time with tanaka? dunno but i would of liked to have seen that over yoshi's.

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I'm also curious as to what it would of been like under Tanaka. Not sure if we'd have official forums.

large group gaming ..even though it was a grind rather then say public quests like in gw2 that is on way, it still big group play just for simple grinds. what would of end game been like then, heck even dungeons if they stuck with 15man. and i don't mean the negative effects but if actually done correctly.

even as we speak, what we gonna get hamlets? what u think they will end up being 16-32man events tops? (no idea by way cause again they still playing this out like every week we need to look an wait to find out instead of releasing what they do know) they took'ith away and the lord'ith want to give'ith back now in a form of some content lol.

it was just easier to picture a better future with even just that then what we have now.

"Yoshida: I love FFVII. It’s got this powerful feeling much like an MMO. You have your main story, mini games, character development, all in this amazingly powerful package. When I talk with people in North America or Europe, many of them say they’ll never forget the impact of that game. If we can create that type of powerful experience within Eorzea, I think FFXIV will have a firm place among MMORPGs."

^ I like this part, perhaps as the game goes on, each expansion pack will be the equivalent in-game of perhaps 10-20 years passing by, so technology increases visually as you play. Eventually airships become more and more advanced, small villages build into large towns and Ul'dah becomes the FFXIV equivalent of Midgar.

I think Tanaka and Yoshi's view of FFXIV are totally different though, Tanaka had some grand scheme using what the game utilised at release, but it was too new and hard to develop content for because it was an idea that they'd need a new way of thinking about. So players complained because of the lack of content that it possessed.

Where as it seems Yoshi's plan for the game is to make it look more familier to players by changing many of it's aspects to things we've either seen in past final fantasy games/mmo or things we've seen in other games that have done well for themselves. Once that is done, then develop the plot.

So at the moment whilst we're playing it's really more like playing a game whilst it's still in it's development phase. We have the engine and the simple systems but need to wait for them to put the more complex things in.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

If you're so skilled at reading between the lines then instead of telling people "go do the leg work its really there i swear it" write out what you personally think his vision is from reading between the lines.

otherwise the argument is pointless. I can just as easily argue that if you read between the lines he is clearly stating the game will be shut down soon. Completely untrue, but when you read between the line you "interpret" and that's not always correct.

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No, absolutely not. And I already said why I wouldn't paraphrase but I did it anyway.

You want specifics and you can't get specifics. That's why this argument is a waste of time, not because the vision isn't there.

And you could argue that. That's the problem with paraphrasing. But I'm very well aware that whatever I write will not be heeded to, because it's only my opinion, and I don't even have enough faith in that to pass it off as someone else's opinon.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

He's already stated his plans. Read the last two letters. Hell 1.201.21 may take up to 6 months, that's half a year. I'm sure he's wants the epic battles and PvP(he said he wants to bring PvP into the game) but he's probably not worried about that stuff right now because he wants to put stuff in the game that should have been there from the get go. The man hasn't been on the job for a year yet and you mouthbreathers are going crazy.

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I didnt ask for plans. i asked for a vision, a general overview of plans for the future. Not specific plans about whats coming out in the next patch, but how the general feel of the game will be a year from now.

From a marketing point of view:
Different MMO's appeal to different people
there are the easy-mode jump around ones like WoW
story rich ones
Cute-based ones
serious + story heavy ones
etc

I want to know what this game will feel like in a year so both I and others will know if its the game for us.

What if they changed the entire game to copy hello kitty and made the game pink? Would you keep playing ?
What if they got rid of levels and equipment and made it easy to get everything, would you still think its the mmo for you?

People deserve to know what they are waiting for. Will it be an FFXI-2? Or will it go in a much different direction? Will it become pvp heavy? Raid heavy? will there be more fantasy? More zones? Stronger story?

I want to know what strengths this game will -eventually- have and what will -eventually- set it apart from others.

And i think a lot of other people want to know that as well.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

Those are all specific questions, not a vision.

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well yeah, they are all things u would normally know b4 u buy a game for most part. do u see the million youtube vids on the upcoming games. we should of know we was in troubles when this game had none. seriously se needs to get on the vids or go homes.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I didnt ask for plans. i asked for a vision, a general overview of plans for the future. Not specific plans about whats coming out in the next patch, but how the general feel of the game will be a year from now.

From a marketing point of view:
Different MMO's appeal to different people
there are the easy-mode jump around ones like WoW
story rich ones
Cute-based ones
serious + story heavy ones
etc

I want to know what this game will feel like in a year so both I and others will know if its the game for us.

What if they changed the entire game to copy hello kitty and made the game pink? Would you keep playing ?
What if they got rid of levels and equipment and made it easy to get everything, would you still think its the mmo for you?

People deserve to know what they are waiting for. Will it be an FFXI-2? Or will it go in a much different direction? Will it become pvp heavy? Raid heavy? will there be more fantasy? More zones? Stronger story?

I want to know what strengths this game will -eventually- have and what will -eventually- set it apart from others.

And i think a lot of other people want to know that as well.

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You deserve to know when you start paying for it. Otherwise you don't really deserve anything. You can wait until they announce their "vision" or until they start charging. When they start charging then you'll have the right to "deserve to know".

You shouldn't be forced to pay into something you might not want to invest in and that's why we aren't paying now.

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Originally Posted by weeble

large group gaming ..even though it was a grind rather then say public quests like in gw2 that is on way, it still big group play just for simple grinds. what would of end game been like then, heck even dungeons if they stuck with 15man. and i don't mean the negative effects but if actually done correctly.

even as we speak, what we gonna get hamlets? what u think they will end up being 16-32man events tops? (no idea by way cause again they still playing this out like every week we need to look an wait to find out instead of releasing what they do know) they took'ith away and the lord'ith want to give'ith back now in a form of some content lol.

it was just easier to picture a better future with even just that then what we have now.

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Hamlet battles are coming in 1.21.

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Originally Posted by weeble

well yeah, they are all things u would normally know b4 u buy a game for most part. do u see the million youtube vids on the upcoming games. we should of know we was in troubles when this game had none. seriously se needs to get on the vids or go homes.

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IMO they don't need a bunch of videos right now. Because they're in the process of fixing the game, no reason to hype it then have more people buy a broken game. If they did that we would have a lot more people complaining why aren't they going fast enough or what's their vision.

Here is an example of Tanaka and his design philosophy:

We don't want to implement instances because we think players in an MMO should play in the same world.

Here is an example of Yoshi P:

Some players like instances and some don't but we hope everyone can enjoy the juicy contents!


edit: I think it's a good idea to implement content for both types of player, but the way yoshi conveys himself makes it look like he has absolutely no idea whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Here is an example of Tanaka and his design philosophy:

We don't want to implement instances because we think players in an MMO should play in the same world.

Here is an example of Yoshi P:

Some players like instances and some don't but we hope everyone can enjoy the juicy contents!

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Wow Yoshi-P sounds better. Open world content and instances. The man is a genius.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Hamlet battles are coming in 1.21.



IMO they don't need a bunch of videos right now. Because they're in the process of fixing the game, no reason to hype it then have more people buy a broken game. If they did that we would have a lot more people complaining why aren't they going fast enough or what's their vision.

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i didn't mean we need vids right now, i'm saying is we usually know what we buying when we do. but derp all we got now is a year and nother year on way of not being sure what to expect.

personally this is how i see it going, first get as many people to p2p as possible, then it will either go to hell an game will get more and more dumbed down till server shutdown. or it can get good and they kinda make the choice in more difficult or easier content depending on what they see. they probably don't have a vision cause it's whatever will keep them making money. like warhammer, that game launched early too and look at it now just enough subs to keep it going and every 6-12months changes to dumb it down even more. i think we need a expansion ..least in how much content we need added into the game for it to stand a chance now.

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Originally Posted by weeble

i didn't mean we need vids right now, i'm saying is we usually know what we buying when we do. but derp all we got now is a year and nother year on way of not being sure what to expect.

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Well that happens when you're in the process of revamping the game, but yeah when they're finally done with everything they need to promote the hell out of this game. Also Yoshi-P said a patch 1.19 video is coming soon, so that should hype up some of the current players.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

edit: I think it's a good idea to implement content for both types of player, but the way yoshi conveys himself makes it look like he has absolutely no idea whatsoever.

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Yeah because you make him sound that way. Here's my example.

Yoshi-P:
Some players like instances and some don't but I want to make a world where no matter your play style there will be something for you to do and there won't be any limitations to that.

His general game philosiphy from what we can discern from his posts seems very lofty. I'm of the opinion that especially in the MMO world you can't catter to everyone. Someones going to get burned in the end.

If he can pull it off great, I just hope some of the content for the people who don't like instances crops up...eventually.

funny thing is people might get tired of the game and leave before they say there finally done. games been out one year and there still working on the stuff that should of been in game a year ago.

they re-invented the wheel failed now falling back on FFXI design but way easier.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Yeah because you make him sound that way. Here's my example.

Yoshi-P:
Some players like instances and some don't but I want to make a world where no matter your play style there will be something for you to do and there won't be any limitations to that.

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Well, just to use an example, Blade&Soul and Guild Wars 2 decided flat-out that they wouldn't have dedicated healers because the game designers held to the principle that healers weren't needed and would hurt the game. Sometimes exclusion is necessary in order to make a good game.

Sometimes implementing stuff just so everyone can find enjoyment isn't always a good idea, because certain playstyles conflict with one another. We see this already on the forums, some people bought this game because they wanted what it was not, and other people are angry because the game they bought is being changed beyond recognition.

This is why vision is needed, so gamers can choose to play games where the vision meshes with their own gameplay preferences.

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Originally Posted by Rhomagus

You deserve to know when you start paying for it. Otherwise you don't really deserve anything. You can wait until they announce their "vision" or until they start charging. When they start charging then you'll have the right to "deserve to know".

You shouldn't be forced to pay into something you might not want to invest in and that's why we aren't paying now.

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While I understand you have narrowminded views about value, money is not everything.

Every time you spend an hour playing FFXIV you are missing out on doing something else. (This is called opportunity cost)

If you are playing with the hopes the game will get better and you will get deferred enjoyment having high level jobs, then you are "paying" for it, just not monetarily.

If you argue "people who don't have fun shouldn't play" then you just killed off about 30-40% of the population and quite possibly many more.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

His general game philosiphy from what we can discern from his posts seems very lofty. I'm of the opinion that especially in the MMO world you can't catter to everyone. Someones going to get burned in the end.

If he can pull it off great, I just hope some of the content for the people who don't like instances crops up...eventually.

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Yeah he won't be able to make everyone happy, Azurymber and User203948203478 proves that. But I think he'll churn out some content that most people will enjoy. Public dungeon is coming in 1.19 that's not instanced, you still have leves that's semi-instanced (of course Yoshi didn't make those) and more NMs are coming.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Yeah because you make him sound that way. Here's my example.

Yoshi-P:
Some players like instances and some don't but I want to make a world where no matter your play style there will be something for you to do and there won't be any limitations to that.

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And why would that work? Wouldn't every game pull that off if it was easy? Because it would guarantee them a bigger player base? But they don't.... I wonder why.....

i for one am glad mmo's are starting to go the route of no healers in them, at least for pvp games, i'm soooo tired on non healing healers or needing pocket heals in a pvp game. i'm also now getting tired of the route of knowing weather u'r gonna win or lose by what class is coming at u..for most part. all these things need to be removed without making the mmo feel like a shooter.

but on the subject at hand, they can not make all happy, and like jnx said, in the end of this some are gonna get burnt. i for one would like to know who lol.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Yeah he won't be able to make everyone happy, Azurymber and User203948203478 proves that. But I think he'll churn out some content that most people will enjoy. Public dungeon is coming in 1.19 that's not instanced, you still have leves that's semi-instanced (of course Yoshi didn't make those) and more NMs are coming.

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I've posted many times that I am quite happy.
I'm not happy with a community that doesn't contribute things of value. I have a solo guide that explains in detail something that every person on this board told me was impossible.
I have a lore guide that no one is contributing too.

I want other people to enjoy this game, hence why i waste hours of my time writing up guides that let people solo, organize the games lore, tell people how to make gil and tell people cool things to see and where to explore.

The fact the wiki's are dead and I can't get moderate amount of content support on these boards shows that most people are disinterested.

I want people to be interested and have an incentive to play.

Azur, you can't expect a plethora of people to contribute to such things. I prefer reading them myself I don't always have the time to write up what I know in a proper enough format.

When the game relaunches, expect such information to be high in demand, but for now it's not really what people are here for.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

And why would that work? Wouldn't every game pull that off if it was easy? Because it would guarantee them a bigger player base? But they don't.... I wonder why.....

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Because usually when an MMO is released it's in it's finished form, and the player-base consists of people looking for content that the game holds, and then from that point on things are simple added that usually revolves around that kind of content.

In the case of FFXIV, because it's being 're-made' from it's original design, it allows Yoshi to see what parts people do and don't like about what the game currently holds, get rid of things that nobody likes, tweak things that people do like, and then add things that people want. People on this want both open-world and instanced content.
In the case of Warcraft people wanted mostly just instanced content, so world bosses and things were eventually phased out as no one bothered with them. Warhammer Online concentrated on open world PvP aspects because that's what many of it's players wanted more of, and so on.

They could try putting EVERYTHING in the game so that it'd appeal to everyone, but then that usually causes problems, as people who like one kind of content may hate other type of content, and sometimes there'll be something pop up that'll force them to play the content they don't like in order to get what they want. Ontop of that you may end up with a large player-base but they'll be a huge mix of 'do likes' and 'don't likes' and often these groups end up argueing because of how much their opinion differs between different parts of the game.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Well, just to use an example, Blade&Soul and Guild Wars 2 decided flat-out that they wouldn't have dedicated healers because the game designers held to the principle that healers weren't needed and would hurt the game. Sometimes exclusion is necessary in order to make a good game.

Sometimes implementing stuff just so everyone can find enjoyment isn't always a good idea, because certain playstyles conflict with one another. We see this already on the forums, some people bought this game because they wanted what it was not, and other people are angry because the game they bought is being changed beyond recognition.

This is why vision is needed, so gamers can choose to play games where the vision meshes with their own gameplay preferences.

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Yeah, I agree he can't do it for everything. That's why you're getting up set over the changes to the armoury system. But the people getting angry need to understand the game is changing and if it not want you want then you need to move along. Yes I know you spent $80 on the CE but I spent money on many things that didn't turn out the way I wanted and I couldn't get my money back.

Anyway I haven't heard anything actually angry at the content they're releasing. Most people enjoyed the NMs and most people enjoyed the dungeons. Also they're not getting rid of guildleves and they're bringing the hamlet defense battles. I can pretty much say they're bring a good balance of open world and instanced content.

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Originally Posted by Konachibi

Because usually when an MMO is released it's in it's finished form, and the player-base consists of people looking for content that the game holds, and then from that point on things are simple added that usually revolves around that kind of content.

In the case of FFXIV, because it's being 're-made' from it's original design, it allows Yoshi to see what parts people do and don't like about what the game currently holds, get rid of things that nobody likes, tweak things that people do like, and then add things that people want. People on this want both open-world and instanced content.
In the case of Warcraft people wanted mostly just instanced content, so world bosses and things were eventually phased out as no one bothered with them. Warhammer Online concentrated on open world PvP aspects because that's what many of it's players wanted more of, and so on.

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I see your point.
But others can do the same thing you claim FFXIV has the opportunity to do via expansion packs
Further all games beta test and many make significant changes based on player responses in beta tests (SW TOR for example cancelled this weeks beta because they have so much to do based on previous ones)
Unlike this game who beta tested and then literally released exactly what we had in beta (which surprised almost everyone)

And there is no way for Yoshi to see what people like and don't like without statistically accurate player polls and those are nearly impossible.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

And why would that work? Wouldn't every game pull that off if it was easy? Because it would guarantee them a bigger player base? But they don't.... I wonder why.....

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Yeah, but with content (at least for this game) it's pretty easy. Just alternate between open world content and instances. Which seems like what they're doing. They seem to be putting their foot down on certain things anyway, like the claiming issue and crafting.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Azur, you can't expect a plethora of people to contribute to such things. I prefer reading them myself I don't always have the time to write up what I know in a proper enough format.

When the game relaunches, expect such information to be high in demand, but for now it's not really what people are here for.

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I expect this.

But if everyone is having fun and such and really cared about this game they would contribute knowing it would benefit everyone.

If no one is contributing it means very few people care about the game.
If new players at relaunch join a game where theres no wiki, they will assume its horrible and quit
even free MMOs have updated wikis.

None of the databases managed to pull together at launch, so i see no reason why they would suddenly pull together at relaunch unless a community of people who -really- want there to be a good future for the game forms. And right now that's seriously lacking.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I see your point.
But others can do the same thing you claim FFXIV has the opportunity to do via expansion packs
Further all games beta test and many make significant changes based on player responses in beta tests (SW TOR for example cancelled this weeks beta because they have so much to do based on previous ones)
Unlike this game who beta tested and then literally released exactly what we had in beta (which surprised almost everyone)

And there is no way for Yoshi to see what people like and don't like without statistically accurate player polls and those are nearly impossible.

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Actually to discover what people do and don't like, Yoshi added forums that community reps looked through to see what people are praising about the game and what people are raging about in the game. Forums are an excellent way to see what kind of player-base your game has and what they like about the game, even if it does get a lot of flamers and trolls.

This in turn helps them decide on what kind of content to add to the game sooner rather than later, to make everyone happy.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I've posted many times that I am quite happy.
I'm not happy with a community that doesn't contribute things of value. I have a solo guide that explains in detail something that every person on this board told me was impossible.
I have a lore guide that no one is contributing too.

I want other people to enjoy this game, hence why i waste hours of my time writing up guides that let people solo, organize the games lore, tell people how to make gil and tell people cool things to see and where to explore.

The fact the wiki's are dead and I can't get moderate amount of content support on these boards shows that most people are disinterested.

I want people to be interested and have an incentive to play.

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Haven't you thought that people just don't want to read your lore guide or your solo guide? I prefer to find out things on my own, also I rather read about the lore in the game not on the forums. Thanks for your hard work, but I think most people have no use for it or rather do things on their own and that's not the game's fault.

edit:

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If no one is contributing it means very few people care about the game.
If new players at relaunch join a game where theres no wiki, they will assume its horrible and quit
even free MMOs have updated wikis.

None of the databases managed to pull together at launch, so i see no reason why they would suddenly pull together at relaunch unless a community of people who -really- want there to be a good future for the game forms. And right now that's seriously lacking.

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IMO MMOs shouldn't need a wiki, especially a recently released one. You should be able to find whatever you looking for in the game with ease. I think they should only have a wiki for items because people like to compare weapon stats.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Yeah, but with content (at least for this game) it's pretty easy. Just alternate between open world content and instances. Which seems like what they're doing. They seem to be putting their foot down on certain things anyway, like the claiming issue and crafting.

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Yes but WHY are they putting their foot down? That's the whole point of this thread, to know WHY they do things and what the game INTENDS TO BE LIKE.

People need to know what they are signing up for.

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Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog

Haven't you thought that people just don't want to read your lore guide or your solo guide? I prefer to find out things on my own, also I rather read about the lore in the game not on the forums. Thanks for your hard work, but I think most people have no use for it or rather do things on their own and that's not the game's fault.

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not seen the posts or know why either, i will chalk it up to the game and what hedge said.

but i just wanted to throw my opinion on this lol, i wish there was a way to remove the internet from mmo's, i know right a online game with people but no way of reading guides and crap. can u imagine everyone having to figure out how to do things themselves or players that figure them out having to acually show people in game they want to show only. i just think it would make mmo's more fun without. ffxi ...u had to read the how to for missions, if u didn't then u didn't know what to expect, and then u make a party to go do it ..u had to tell em what to do. if u tell em lets just figure it out in if they don't go run right away they will in a try or 2. is why i love a fresh new game, new content that hasn't even been beat like the way we at now. trying batral b4 the vids and stuff cause there were no vids.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Yes but WHY are they putting their foot down? That's the whole point of this thread, to know WHY they do things and what the game INTENDS TO BE LIKE.

People need to know what they are signing up for.

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You're signing up for what COULD in the future be the greatest fantasy online multiplayer game the world has ever seen.

It's up to you whether you stick around and pre-emptively prepare your character for what is to come, whether to leave and come back when the content is in then level up your character, or leave entirely and go to a different game.

Personally I'm sticking around, I can see a great deal of potential in this game and I'm prepared to be patient and watch it grow.

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Yes but WHY are they putting their foot down? That's the whole point of this thread, to know WHY they do things and what the game INTENDS TO BE LIKE.

People need to know what they are signing up for.

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And it's there... you won't get an accurate response from the player base because the player base is not the development team. You can see the vision and direction with the currently available information.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by User201109011315

Yes but WHY are they putting their foot down? That's the whole point of this thread, to know WHY they do things and what the game INTENDS TO BE LIKE.

People need to know what they are signing up for.

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Read the Japanese to English translation thread. Yoshi gives reasons why they're changing stuff. Maybe stuff you don't want to hear, but it's there.