Tanks thrown out of farms for low DPS?

While it is up to the party to set these things...how much more efficient is it to sit around waiting for that "proper" tank over just grabbing one that can get the job done and farming?

There's the big issue; there just aren't a ton of tanks up to this standard. Its great if you can find one, but if you're going to do a run, kick, sit around for 20 minutes, then repeat this all day...are you really being efficient at farming?

And there's having healers who are also up to this standard.


For the record, I do great DPS as a WAR (full 130 STR for almost everything, swapping Defiance when I can, though I'll use my 110 melded set if the heals are weaker or I'm in T13), so I would be one of those these groups are hoping to find. But I'm also more than fine for taking a safer route or grabbing someone who does a little less DPS but can clear without issues for the sake of continuing a farm (as opposed to spending more time in PF than farming).

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

If you NEED a tank/healer to DPS, in any current raid content, your party is just bad. End of story.

Progression, sure you might need to squeeze every bit out. But in this scenario given? It's more likely the DPS were just bad and were blaming the tanks DPS.

As a high-end warrior myself, I tank every turn in full i130 right side STR. I have out dps'd mediocre players and lesser geared players alike while tanking. But survival is my #1 concern. If I don't believe I can survive in my gear due to low bad heals, I won't wear it.

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Hey, high end tank here too. If people ask the tank to DPS at this point, it's not because they need it. Maybe (see below). They want to minimize the time spent in that content so they can farm it at a faster rate. With FCOB now with echo, I see no reason to use anything but Slaying Accesories. Like you do. If you are a tank that actually can pull big numbers, then you can join, you might know how to survive and do DPS. These PF are not forcing the tanks to pull extra DPS but requesting the players who know how to do it go and join them.

Of course, if that group have high standards, like "YO PULL XXX DPS ON PLD AS YOU MT, ALL THE TIME", I'll expect the same thing in return. I'll expect good healers, I'll expect good DPS. Because if I will bring my A+ game, I want these guys to do the same. If they are asking me to pull extra DPS because their base DPS is mediocre, I'll take my leave, depending on how long that fight takes compared to its average duration.

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

Of course, if that group have high standards, like "YO PULL XXX DPS ON PLD AS YOU MT, ALL THE TIME", I'll expect the same thing in return. I'll expect good healers, I'll expect good DPS. Because if I will bring my A+ game, I want these guys to do the same. If they are asking me to pull extra DPS because their base DPS is mediocre, I'll take my leave, depending on how long that fight takes compared to its average duration.

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This. If a t12 farm isn't pushing 4 bennus or less, for example, a tank's DPS isn't going to help matters.
3 Bennus or less though? Sure why not.

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

Of course, if that group have high standards, like "YO PULL XXX DPS ON PLD AS YOU MT, ALL THE TIME", I'll expect the same thing in return. I'll expect good healers, I'll expect good DPS. Because if I will bring my A+ game, I want these guys to do the same. If they are asking me to pull extra DPS because their base DPS is mediocre, I'll take my leave, depending on how long that fight takes compared to its average duration.

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This goes without saying for me, regardless of the job I'm playing. I'm not doing these kind of farms to carry some weak person looking for an item.

Normal PUG farms, sure, I'm OK with people not being on top of things. But if the standards are high for tanks then they better be just as high for everyone else

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Originally Posted by Cutie_McSnuggles

Tanks that focus too much on DPS scare me. I've had to heal tanks that want so badly to put out big DPS numbers that they've shed all their vit, parry, and block. In order to keep them alive I have to spam heal them. Then they get angry when I pull hate.

Not to mention, that extra 50-100 tank DPS doesn't make up for missing out on healer DPS.

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If you pulled hate its probably because you medica2 when like those little dragon adds come out on T13. The only block stat in the game comes from shield you can't get less of it no gear has block on it.

I think the issue is that it was never really stated in the PF that everyone must needs to have high dps.As far as I can tell it was just a normal farm party

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

If people ask the tank to DPS at this point, it's not because they need it. Maybe (see below). They want to minimize the time spent in that content so they can farm it at a faster rate. With FCOB now with echo, I see no reason to use anything but Slaying Accesories. Like you do. If you are a tank that actually can pull big numbers, then you can join, you might know how to survive and do DPS. These PF are not forcing the tanks to pull extra DPS but requesting the players who know how to do it go and join them.

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by this logic, we should expect that all DPS will use the following, every time:
1. Food
2. Potent Poisoning Potions
3. X-potion of Stat.
4. Run your rotation and cooldowns optimally (DPS)

for a farm party. These are staple tools of a DPS's kit, and ones that I use when I merc or likewise when I want to help my friends clearing content (progression), so expecting a tank to do high DPS - I expect the DPS to be popping all of these to do their highest DPS too.

My issue lies with this weird new reliance on tanks to DPS. Too many parties I am the highest DPS in the group (DRG/BLM) or I am on the same level as the BLM/BRD (WAR, sometimes doing more if they are REALLY bad.) My point may not be coming across properly though - but to me, I just see this concept as bad players trying to push more responsibility onto tanks because they can't handle it otherwise. =/ I've seen "Farm parties" get to 5 benu's, even with my WAR-DPS.

I guess I get what you're saying too. It's not that they need it - they just want it to streamline and make the fight easier. I just think it's this weird double-standard that's only thrursted on tanks. Sometimes I feel like we're expected to carry the party. Pop perfect mitigation. Heal yourself (bloodbath/stoneskins), and now do a ton of DPS. It's frustrating as a tank and I worry for my tank friends who tank casually.

I think the problem with DPS and tanking is that there are a lot of people out there trying it who weren't really around for it's development.

A good DPS-heavy tank doesn't sacrifice VIT for STR - they sacrifice excess VIT for STR. You do not want to go into T13 with 9k HP and basically force your SCH to heal when your DPS won't make up for it. There is a fine line that you need to balance on to achieve high numbers while also maintaining survivability. Knowing when to pop CDs is very important, knowing when you need to be in your tank stance (and being able to mitigate that as WAR) is very important, knowing when you need more VIT because your healers aren't on the ball is very important, etc. etc.

You are a tank first and a DPS second. Do not make your healer's life harder than it needs to be, but don't be so scared that you're sitting at 10k+ HP (PLD) in T9 or whatever. Know how much HP you need, know the fight, and know when you are safe to contribute DPS and when you need to focus on mitigation.

Anyway, I like it when I get a tank that puts out high DPS and doesn't drop like a brick but they are quite hard to find. For T10-12 I'll take any other tank I can get, though I can understand the merits of high tank DPS in 12. As others have said, excluding lower DPS tanks who at least know what they're doing might have you sitting in PF for way longer than it would take to form a perfect party - I have the same problem with people who specifically want BLM over SMN when either is fine.

Sorry but, if a party needs a tank's dps to farm, then they are probably not that good.

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Originally Posted by dragonflie

Sorry but, if a party needs a tank's dps to farm, then they are probably not that good.

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After five pages people are still making this comment.

It's not about being able to farm without good tank dps. It's about being able to farm more efficiently.

I can make the same ignorant comment about any party finder with an ilevel requirement.

I never trust PF farm healers as warrior, I turn off defiance when really safe, but not at as u would normally do on your static. A PF healer will let u die/overheal.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

After five pages people are still making this comment.

It's not about being able to farm without good tank dps. It's about being able to farm more efficiently.

I can make the same ignorant comment about any party finder with an ilevel requirement.

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You realize you waste more time by kicking tanks and waiting around in PF longer. For example you are farming T10 you wait about 35 min for the party to fill most of that time spent was waiting for a tank. You do 1 fight you notice your warrior OT is using vit accessories. You beat the fight without much problem. Then you kick the warrior and say sorry you should be using str accessories and were doing low dps I am kicking you for that. You are back in PF for another 30 min to get a tank.

So then you just wasted maybe 3 fights you could of done in an effort to get that extra 100 or so tank dps from the perfect tank that may shave 30 sec to a min off the fight. If you ask me that isn't efficient use of time at all.

As a tank you should be looking for every opportunity to do DPS. The key is when you can. Its just like how some healers only heal, and sometimes they are just standing there for periods of time doing NOTHING. You are given damage spells, use them. And the same with tanking, you are given the ability to be in damage stances so you should be using them when you aren't tanking and are able.

It really blows my mind that people want to play their jobs without using their full potential. Doing the bare minimum in my opinion is lazy, boring, and selfish.

Great... I'm officially never pugging anything without tanks I know.

It always makes me sad to read that apparently most tanks dont care about their dps. When tanks do their job and tank they are automatically adding dps, so dps checks are definietly designed with that additional tank dps in mind. If you are doing below average tank dps, and dont care about somehwhat optimizing it, then you are not trying to be a good tank in my eyes.

The thing is in most content that the average player plays, the dps checks are so lenient that already one good dps can easily compensate for bad tank dps.
But when it comes to cutting edge content, there is pretty much no pro-group where the tank doesnt have high dps, because they know very well that it matters.

Tank DPS can matter in some fights. If you're doing the standard Garuda EX farm method, EVERYONE needs to be outputting the maximum DPS they can manage for it to work, tanks and healers included. You need to be able to burn her before she jumps for twisters/the second round of sisters-- when my FC farms it, we usually have the OT wearing Slaying accessories to maximize DPS.

Probably the same reason why healers could possibly be kicked for not DPSing when possible. If you have the means to do more damage, but you're holding back for some reason, you're slowing down progression for the party, thus the problem. I joined a T12 group last night and began wondering why we were pushing 5 bennus since 4 seems to be the norm.

Turns out our BLM wasn't using Raging Strikes because, and I quote:

"I was afraid I'd pull Phoenix off the tank."

Since this person was a WAR though, he really doesn't have much of an excuse if he's not oozing STR from his pores since that's what they are built for, so I could definitely see the problem with a WAR not carrying his own weight. He probably just dumped more accessories and points into VIT, but that's a bit excessive since WAR already has enough HP as it is, lol. Hell, I had to swap out some VIT accessories and points for STR as PLD because I realized I had more than enough HP for this turn and we were always behind by like 1-2% for the phase change in this T12 group last night, so we always ended up getting 5 bennus instead of 4.

Now, my usual static always pushes 4, even with my VIT build, but I just sacrificed some VIT, since I knew I could spare it, for some STR in order to help push a little better. Now that will help and I'll be less of a liability when it comes to DPS in a party, even though I'm a tank.

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Originally Posted by TetsuyaHikari

Probably the same reason why healers could possibly be kicked for not DPSing when possible. If you have the means to do more damage, but you're holding back for some reason, you're slowing down progression for the party, thus the problem. I joined a T12 group last night and began wondering why we were pushing 5 bennus since 4 seems to be the norm.

Turns out our BLM wasn't using Raging Strikes because, and I quote:

"I was afraid I'd pull Phoenix off the tank."

Since this person was a WAR though, he really doesn't have much of an excuse if he's not oozing STR from his pores since that's what they are built for, so I could definitely see the problem with a WAR not carrying his own weight. He probably just dumped more accessories and points into VIT, but that's a bit excessive since WAR already has enough HP as it is, lol. Hell, I had to swap out some VIT accessories and points for STR as PLD because I realized I had more than enough HP for this turn and we were always behind by like 1-2% for the phase change in this T12 group last night, so we always ended up getting 5 bennus instead of 4.

Now, my usual static always pushes 4, even with my VIT build, but I just sacrificed some VIT, since I knew I could spare it, for some STR in order to help push a little better. Now that will help and I'll be less of a liability when it comes to DPS in a party, even though I'm a tank.

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That is a dps problem not a tank not doing enough dps problem. Both of our FC tanks use full vit set ups 6 months ago when this was progression content and we always got 4 bennus. Now with echo you should get 4 no matter what if anytihng it is dps doing not enough dps which is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

That is a dps problem not a tank not doing enough dps problem. Both of our FC tanks use full vit set ups 6 months ago when this was progression content and we always got 4 bennus. Now with echo you should get 4 no matter what if anytihng it is dps doing not enough dps which is the problem.

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DPS problem =/= tank problem

If the tank can do more damage to help contribute to progression, then they should. Yes, ultimately the DPS should be using proper rotations for maximum damage output, but the tank isn't given a free pass simply because they only focus on positioning and eating whatever the boss (or adds) throws at them. By your logic, it's perfectly okay for a SCH to not contribute to DPS if the party is behind on a phase change by a couple of percent or so. Clearly since it's just a "DPS problem", then only the DPS jobs have a means to fix it.

This is not always the case.

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Originally Posted by TetsuyaHikari

Clearly since it's just a "DPS problem", then only the DPS jobs have a means to fix it.

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If I'm in a pickup group and I'm being required to go above and beyond as a tank or a healer just to compensate for bad DPS I'm going to take my leave and find a better group. Not everyone shares your "Just pickup the slack so you can get it done" mentality.

I guess its more about the attitude. I will of course do my 300-400 dps but if im expected to by the group, i will also expect the dps to be at 500-600.

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Originally Posted by TetsuyaHikari

DPS problem =/= tank problem

If the tank can do more damage to help contribute to progression, then they should. Yes, ultimately the DPS should be using proper rotations for maximum damage output, but the tank isn't given a free pass simply because they only focus on positioning and eating whatever the boss (or adds) throws at them. By your logic, it's perfectly okay for a SCH to not contribute to DPS if the party is behind on a phase change by a couple of percent or so. Clearly since it's just a "DPS problem", then only the DPS jobs have a means to fix it.

This is not always the case.

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Tanks and healers doing good DPS is going above and beyond their jobs.

Tanks are there to keep aggro on enemies, position everything correctly and make sure the party is safe (as far as tanking can keep them safe. Unavoidable raid damage, DPS derping to Divebombs or not running out of cleaves when dodging Nerve Gas is not a tank issue).

Healers are there to heal, keeping the tanks alive so they can do their job, healing up unavoidable raid damage and healing derpy DPS who dodn't know how to avoid easily avoidable damage

DPS are there to...well, kill things. None of the fights are designed to require tanks or healers pushing DPS; as far as progression goes, if you don't meet the DPS check its because you aren't geared enough. Yes, you can overcome DPS checks earlier thanks to heal and tank DPS (or pentamelding the groups entire gearsets with grade 4 materia), but that's not how the fights were designed, ultimately. Look at the minimum ilv to see what was essentially intended for each turn at minimum.

If you're failing a DPS check with Echo...well, your DPS suck. Plain and simple. If you want tanks and heals to DPS to make up for those crappy DPS...well, unless you're going to pay them to play better than the DPS, don't expect them to stick around once they see what's really going on.

Pretty much, if you want tanks and heals to go above and beyond...DPS better be doing so too; not just doing enough DPS to meet the checks, but pushing themselves to do the most they can (which can definitely include using food and X-Pots)

Tank dps as of now is part of the package in terms of FCoB. Where, because of how the fights are designed it really isnt game breaking to do decent damage that isnt absolutely amazing (more so on Warrior as OT where in say 10 and 11 youre a DPS) I main Warrior (huge advocate of tank dps), so my view on acceptable tank damage may be a bit more than what the average PF can expect but I wouldnt kick a tank. After all its PF where at the very least i'm expecting some sub optimal play with people i dont know, I only expect good numbers with my static and friends.

Just like how when i pull good numbers in p1&2 of T12 in PF and we get 4 Bennus, i dont get mad for not getting 3 because its not worth the hassle to min/max that much in PF and as long as you're killing it you're gold. I expect my level of play from people i'd choose to invite to play with, not those i want to randomly join. (still certain tiers tanks should be hitting though, anything less is pure laziness)

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

If I'm in a pickup group and I'm being required to go above and beyond as a tank or a healer just to compensate for bad DPS I'm going to take my leave and find a better group. Not everyone shares your "Just pickup the slack so you can get it done" mentality.

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I'm not saying "pick up the slack and get it done". I'm saying whether you have bad or good DPS is irrelevant. You should be trying to do your best regardless and if you can afford to shave off some VIT on your build for more STR to get more damage in, you should do it to help your party one way or another. A DPS that performs badly due to terrible rotations is one thing... They're simply ignorant.

You're even worse than they are if you acknowledge the fact that you have holes in your performance, but simply refuse to do anything about them.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Tanks and healers doing good DPS is going above and beyond their jobs.

Tanks are there to keep aggro on enemies, position everything correctly and make sure the party is safe (as far as tanking can keep them safe. Unavoidable raid damage, DPS derping to Divebombs or not running out of cleaves when dodging Nerve Gas is not a tank issue).

Healers are there to heal, keeping the tanks alive so they can do their job, healing up unavoidable raid damage and healing derpy DPS who dodn't know how to avoid easily avoidable damage

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Noooooooow we're getting somewhere. Yeah, I see players like you a lot running around Mor Dhona. Hell, there are plenty of people in the real world that behave this way too.

If their job description doesn't include doing something else, they're not going to do it (most of the time anyway) unless there's some kind of reward for doing so. I can't tell you how many healers I've seen that simply wanted to be just a healer and heal throughout the whole battle, despite having the MP to contribute to DPS. I have more respect for players that are willing to go above and beyond their jobs in order to accomplish their goal.

If you're fine with just being another healer, good for you. You'll leave more of an impression though if you're a healer that not only heals, but pops Cleric Stance to DPS when possible, then switches back to healing when necessary. It says a lot about you as a player and a person when you are willing to do more than what is required of you for the sake of others.

Personally? I try to better myself in any way I know how in order to help the party out, even if it's only a little bit. Nothing states I have to pop Shadow Flare on the boss every time it wears off. I could just sit back and pop Adlo and Physick the whole time while standing in the background with well over 3,000 MP, even halfway into the battle, simply because I haven't been using any DOTs or Cleric Stance + Ruin II. Now, don't try to sit there and say Shadow Flare, Ruin II, and DOTs are "part of the job". SCH is specifically classified as a healer, so according to your logic... Any SCH that applies DOTs and all of that is apparently going above and beyond their job since their job is a healer.

Do you also give tanks shit for applying Stoneskin during battle even though it has nothing to do with tanking? A good player learns how to adapt to a multitude of situations using all of their tools at their disposal while a bad player limits themselves despite having multiple options for multiple situations.

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Originally Posted by TetsuyaHikari

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I perform how I need to perform to get a job done and depend on my team to do the same. If the fight is killed in 10 minutes or 8 minutes it matters not, the DPS checks are met and we're clearing I am happy. I am not considered "bad" for doing what my job entails instead of going above and beyond.

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Originally Posted by TetsuyaHikari

SNIP

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Lol, someone don't read everything. First, if you read back a few pages, you'll see I'm a tank who pushes my DPS as default, many times doing more DPS than the DPS themselves in PF. So...try again please.



At its basest, what I said is 100% true. Whether you like it or not. A healer's job is to heal, a tank's job is to tank, a DPS's job is to meet the DPS check and get the kill. In a standard PF or any DF, that's all you can expect of anyone, and getting mad at people for not doing more is idiotic on your part

The issue here is expecting that tanks do far more than any other role by default. Tank perfectly, pop CDs perfectly, do great DPS (even when tanking). Whereas people aren't expecting DPS to do similarly (perfect rotation, perfect CD usage, food, X-pots), and healers generally get a pass as well (due to having to now baby the tanks)

Its one thing to be with your static, or other people you know, and expect them to be the best tank/heal/DPS possible. Its another thing entirely to expect that out of randoms.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

I perform how I need to perform to get a job done and depend on my team to do the same. If the fight is killed in 10 minutes or 8 minutes it matters not, the DPS checks are met and we're clearing I am happy. I am not considered "bad" for doing what my job entails instead of going above and beyond.

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And that's why I said you settle. You couldn't care less if it's in 10 or 8 minutes just as long as you clear it. You're simply content with where you are and that's great for a lot of people. In fact, a lot of players actually struggle to reach that point where they are doing well enough that they feel they don't need to try any harder, so they don't.

However, you're simply justifying your lazy behavior by saying "Oh, I cleared it, so that's all that matters." On paper, you'd be right. In execution... Not so much. By your logic, if you were to participate in a marathon tomorrow, you wouldn't care less if you were last or first, just as long as you pass the finish line since that's all you set out to do. Some people want more than that though. Sometimes just getting by isn't enough for them.

If you're able to push content faster, but simply choose not to, that's just giving yourself (and your party) a handicap. You should be doing your best whenever you can and if you don't feel your best, you can probably still try to clear, but at least you'd have an excuse since you aren't feeling well physically or mentally. Still... That's definitely a bad mentality to have though, especially since you surround yourself with people that think the same and believe that it's okay to not give it their all since you aren't giving it your all. Next thing you know, the entire party is slacking, when they could be doing better, because they've been conditioned to believe it's okay to settle for a clear in content rather than a good clear.

So yes, you are a bad player if you not only have the means to be a better player, but are willingly choosing not to be better, and go above and beyond when doing your job.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Lol, someone don't read everything. First, if you read back a few pages, you'll see I'm a tank who pushes my DPS as default, many times doing more DPS than the DPS themselves in PF. So...try again please.



At its basest, what I said is 100% true. Whether you like it or not. A healer's job is to heal, a tank's job is to tank, a DPS's job is to meet the DPS check and get the kill. In a standard PF or any DF, that's all you can expect of anyone, and getting mad at people for not doing more is idiotic on your part

The issue here is expecting that tanks do far more than any other role by default. Tank perfectly, pop CDs perfectly, do great DPS (even when tanking). Whereas people aren't expecting DPS to do similarly (perfect rotation, perfect CD usage, food, X-pots), and healers generally get a pass as well (due to having to now baby the tanks)

Its one thing to be with your static, or other people you know, and expect them to be the best tank/heal/DPS possible. Its another thing entirely to expect that out of randoms.

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I didn't read back a few pages. I read what you posted recently since that's what was being discussed and because you replied back to my post. If you do actually push your DPS as a tank, then great. That's what you should be doing.

By definition, what you said is actually 100% true. You're right. However, things aren't simply black and white when it comes to a player's performance. Let me ask you this (and please don't lie, cause I'll know if you do).

Would you rather have a healer that simply heals 24/7 or would you rather have a healer that heals on top of doing DPS when they're not healing? Would you rather have a DPS that sticks to dealing damage 24/7 or would you rather have a DPS that also has cross-class abilities which help him survive longer as well, despite those abilities not being part of his job? Would you rather have a tank that's geared to the teeth well beyond what's required for any of our current content and has 1,000+ extra HP for padding or would you rather have a tank that has sacrificed that extra HP for additional STR to help the party DPS and push progress in end game content?

If you honestly believe that a healer is just a healer, a tank is just a tank, and a DPS is just a DPS, then you're an even bigger fool than I am. I'm certainly not expecting tanks to do more though. I'm expecting every role to do more. We come into FCOB, I want to see a DPS bringing food (and using X-Potions if necessary), using those perfect rotations they've had hours upon hours to practice, popping CDs appropriately to maximize their damage output, etc.

I want to see a tank doing more than just positioning and popping CDs to survive. You see a DPS coming near you and getting hit by the boss, and they're about to die? Don't just follow the ABCs and stick on the boss. Pop cover (if you're PLD, of course) and try to protect the DPS if you can. Go that extra mile and try to make sure he stays alive long enough so the healer can keep him up and you can keep fighting without losing someone.

Now, that's certainly not to say the tank should sacrifice themselves for the sake of the DPS, but I can't tell you how many times I've seen a PLD simply ignore an injured DPS right beside them and let them die. It's like once you reach end game content, PLD players completely forget they even have cover. I have saved actually quite a few players, DPS, tanks, and healers alike, when using this.

However, many parties are fine with having tanks that simply stand in the same spot the whole time and just keep the boss positioned properly while popping CDs to stay alive. Nothing more, nothing less. That, in my opinion, is just lazy and unacceptable... Especially if you have the gall to consider yourself a "good" player while not even using some of the skills available to you.

I don't see a problem with expecting any player to play to the best of their ability. If they're giving me less than their best, they're not only wasting their own time, but they're wasting mine as well. Do you honestly believe I think to myself, "Oh, it's just a DF group. I'll just give 60%." or something? I play as good as I can, regardless of the job I'm playing, or the company I'm with, which is exactly why I expect others to give me that same respect.

I couldn't care less if we're not in the same static. Don't come out there half-assing shit just because we don't know each other. You want to sit around with your thumb up your ass? Do it on your own time.

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Originally Posted by TetsuyaHikari

So yes, you are a bad player if you not only have the means to be a better player, but are willingly choosing not to be better, and go above and beyond when doing your job.

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Not everyone plays a game to stress themselves out with going 'above and beyond' what is necessary to achieve a task. I play for fun. I play a white mage, I heal fast as heck, I memorize boss rotations, I preplan my heals, I try to cover for DPS or tanks taking unnecessary damage, I have exceptional raid awareness skills, I react to "oh shit" situations like a failed red fire in T12 and heal through it, I do not switch on Cleric's stance and invest in melding accuracy to my accessories so I can deal more DPS in a farm. I will use holy during dungeon runs but I ain't gonna do it in a coil farm.

If the difference between me and a good player is me not switching on Cleric's Stance and trying to push 300 DPS on a white mage during a farm instead of all the other talents I can bring to the raid then consider me a terribly bad player for life.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

snip

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This. The day I frequently have to play the game as if it's a career or be yelled at and the day I'm considered bad at my role even while doing my role's job perfectly is the day I move onto another game.

I contribute beyond my role when I am comfortable doing so, which is actually quite often. But people shouldn't have to feel coerced into it, it should be optional.

If you treat the game as a corporation and see other players as deadline squeezed employees who are lazy if they aren't working themselves to death doing jobs meant for multiple people at all times, I think it's best to re-examine why you play.

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If you honestly believe that a healer is just a healer, a tank is just a tank, and a DPS is just a DPS, then you're an even bigger fool than I am. I'm certainly not expecting tanks to do more though. I'm expecting every role to do more. We come into FCOB, I want to see a DPS bringing food (and using X-Potions if necessary), using those perfect rotations they've had hours upon hours to practice, popping CDs appropriately to maximize their damage output, etc.

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Right here is the issue. "Using x-pots If necessary." This is the issue everyone is trying to point out to you. This is what's driving people to be annoyed by this topic and to argue so heavily against it.

The tank should be using STR gear if necessary, not mandatory.
The healer should be DPS'ing if necessary, not mandatory.
The DPS shoudl be popping pots if necessary, not mandatory.

What we have here is a situation where people are saying tanks should be required/mandatory to do DPS on top of their already required tanking role. Many tanks may not be up to that standard. Just because I can do it, doesn't mean I will do it for everything. There is a time and place. And just because I can do it, doesn't mean all tanks can do it. I'm happy when I get a freaking tank that doesn't die in T10 to charges and holds threat. That's fine for me. If I'm there as DPS, I''ll push that DPS so the tank can focus on his job..... THAT is teamwork.

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Originally Posted by TetsuyaHikari

Snippy again

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Just as you said, it is not black and white. Everything is situational. I've seen plenty of times where tanks or heals (even those who should know better) were trying to DPS where they shouldn't be, because they're being pressured into DPSing more or because they think they're better than everyone else and can force their partner tank/heal to do everything for them. Or, something goes wrong and because the tank/heal was DPSing rather than doing their job a wipe is caused. And yes, there are times when it is much better to "do nothing" rather than try to swap stances and DPS, especially in PUGs.

In PUGs, its almost always better to er on the side of caution. You don't know who is in your group, you don't know their skill level, you don't know if they're going to do something different than your used to (another really common thing I see in PUGs...people assuming a specific strat is going to be used. Then you see the tethered people going in opposite directions and killing themselves, and throwing a bunch of stacks on the other group...). As I said, go all out with people you know. But PUGs? You're the fool for expecting more than the basics.
The whole Cover thing...if a DPS is getting cleaved, guess who's fault that is (especially considering only one FCoB boss actually cleaves consistently...Imdugud, Bahamut and Kaliya have a cone AoE that's easy to avoid, and Phoenix only has Revalation that AoEs around the tank); getting hit by the boss's attacks, unless you're tanking, means you're in the wrong spot and you need to move. No excuses, stop being bad DPS. Also...what are the healers doing instead of healing in this situation?


Just for grins, your Lodestone is interesting...you sure talk a lot for someone who hasn't cleared FCoB yet and has a very Augmented Paladin showing. I do wonder just how much you really PUG (or even run) endgame content.

There's just a lot of assholes in this community. It's really too bad they just didn't stay in WoW where they belong.

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Originally Posted by TetsuyaHikari

I don't see a problem with expecting any player to play to the best of their ability.

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How do you know what the best of their ability is? Lots of people have physical or mental health issues that could hinder what you consider to be "the best".

So why make a of..? Just do it with fc. All them 50s gotta be ilevel130.

You really cannot ask nextlevel playing from players in DF/PF when so many has trouble to grasp even basics, you can always push yourself but dont assume that everyone does the same in PuG's.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Just for grins, your Lodestone is interesting...you sure talk a lot for someone who hasn't cleared FCoB yet and has a very Augmented Paladin showing. I do wonder just how much you really PUG (or even run) endgame content.

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http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17kh...f/original.gif

Forum always give funny discussion, never heard from my server about this.
I have friends who have "Out of a Bind III" achievement and their job is farm Coil only,
most of them have full set from Coil on their main class.
They never mention about the Tank DPS need to met some criteria or par.

I have no right to comment here because I never set my foot to t13 yet. (Lack ilvl and don't have "Blood for Blood" yet),
But I have completed t12 few times already and never got kicked from the party due to DPS or what ever issue.
We have Echo already, there is no need to be so strict.

Well anyone can make their own rules for their PF, but in the same time you create more enemies based on that behavior and later on nobody want to help you.

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Originally Posted by nuyu11

Forum always give funny discussion, never heard from my server about this.
I have friends who have "Out of a Bind III" achievement and their job is farm Coil only,
most of them have full set from Coil on their main class.
They never mention about the Tank DPS need to met some criteria or par.

I have no right to comment here because I never set my foot to t13 yet. (Lack ilvl and don't have "Blood for Blood" yet),
But I have completed t12 few times already and never got kicked from the party due to DPS or what ever issue.
We have Echo already, there is no need to be so strict.

Well anyone can make their own rules for their PF, but in the same time you create more enemies based on that behavior and later on nobody want to help you.

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I got out of a bind 3 with my FC. Go 100% full vit on pld because that is what the healers in fc want. So you really do not need high tank dps to beat FCoB at all and we did this before echo even came out.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I got out of a bind 3 with my FC. Go 100% full vit on pld because that is what the healers in fc want. So you really do not need high tank dps to beat FCoB at all and we did this before echo even came out.

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Yeap... High vit will give less stress to healer, that's what they taught me.
From my personal perspective, everything is not about the result, it's about chemistry and team works.
Everyone can cover others weakness and same thing applies to you.
That's why doing with your friends will have higher success rate.

In kill/ clear PTs I wouldn't really require tanks to have good dps, but in farms I guess everyone is expected to do their best which includes even tanks and healers dps wise.

I don't care about healer/tank dps when I make my farm parties but I honestly believe.. um nope, I take it as a fact.. that party leader is permitted to make any requirements and rules he wants for his party as long as they do not interfere with law and rules set by Square Enix. No one forces you to join these parties but you aren't really rightful, if you decide to bash them. There are people who want to farm things at the fastest pace possible (even tanks and healers) and are willing to work for that even under threat of being kicked.

EDIT: Some people are stating (not saying that in this topic) that if the DPS is low, it is the mistake of DPSes, which is truth BUT! there is no DPS ceiling that can the party do overall. Even if you have the top DPSes EU, your overall damage will stop at the damage ceiling of each DPS class and then you can only make the DPS higher, when your tank and healer do dps too. If bard reaches for example average 490 in 5minutes (without echo, it is maybe possible to do more dps in 5 minutes but I don't know that), he probably reached the maximal damage output he can do, but if warrior decides to also do proper DPS, the overall DPS will just go even higher and it will make the run shorter.

Do not take this reply as a reply to OP, I am just giving out my own opinion about the correctness of making parties with high level dps requirement or kick that include even tanks and healers.