Pro tip: Tell me you're new to a dungeon /rant

I usually pull a small amount at first to gauge my group's ability, and increase how much I pull based on how well we are doing/if I am dying/If stuff is dying fast enough ect. Sometimes you can just tell by looking at gear, that everyone is expecting a speed run. It is annoying however, to pull a boss and someone have no idea what they are doing, and not say anything beforehand. Like "what does this guy do?" or "first time". While I can understand people not wanting to single themselves out as new. I would much rather take the 20 seconds to explain the boss, so speak up.

Both sides have a point.
1. new players need to speak up (being scared to speak up only makes your problems worse)
2. veterens need to have more patience
I have gotten brand spanking newbies through some tough encounters quite easily, by taking the 20 seconds or so to explain a boss, and to pull the encounter based on my groups skill level.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

new players need to speak up (being scared to speak up only makes your problems worse)

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While I agree that it would be better if people did speak up, the trouble is that for players who are naturally shy or quiet, having someone actively pushing them to speak up will often have the opposite effect. That's as true in this game as it is in life. Some people just do not speak up, and when pressed to do so, will clam up even more. Combine that with the possibility of English not being their native language, and you have a recipe for disaster when people presume that quiet players are intentionally refusing to interact.

Patience is a virtue. Patience with friends is always appreciated. But, patience in a group of strangers is priceless.

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Originally Posted by Amenian

Tank pulls lots of mobs then wonders why they're taking so long to die. I mean, I do ok AoE damage as a NIN, but just ok. I definitely can't carry the AoE by myself. And a monk? lol...

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2 melee = pull 1 pack at a time and watch things melt under focused single target damage + healer DPS'ing.

Making 2 melee AoE is just ridiculously slow.

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Originally Posted by Jamein

when I see a bunch of fully decked out people in my party I'm going to pull everything I see and go to town, but if the healer is some guy fresh into the ilvl bracket for that dungeon I'm not gonna say hey buddy watch this and run train on him.

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"Hey, the SCH is using a Darklight grimoire and a couple of pieces of AF gear. Maybe I should take it slow."

Yeah, it's totally a thing. :3

@OP - it's generally safer to assume people are new and didn't speak up than to assume that the silence means nobody is new. Several possbilities as to why you didn't get a response have already been suggested.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

Logic

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THIS!

Don't assume a speed run, don't assume single pulls, don't assume players skill level is equivalent to their gear level.

Instead of thinking "Nobody is new, PULL ALL THE THINGS!!! 111", pull half the things and see how they do. Did they demolish them easily? Now pull all the things. Did you struggle a bit? Pull half the things for the remainder. Did you wipe? Obviously a speed run is not going to happen now.

In my opinion, the fault of a failed speed run as per OP's situation is entirely the tanks fault for being unable to judge the party skill level correctly.

Pro tip, pulling everything and wiping takes substantially longer than splitting that into two pulls to gauge everyone's abilities.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

THIS!

Don't assume a speed run, don't assume single pulls, don't assume players skill level is equivalent to their gear level.

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#DoYouEvenTankBro?

Almost nobody wants to sit around at the beginning of the instance, and chat for 10 minutes, to agree on how fast or slow to pull.

For the most part, the pressure is put on the tank to pull at a speed that the part is comfortable with. Since most people want fast, your default speed, should be fast, and slow down as is necessary or preferred by the entire group. but, if I'm right, the OP is merely saying "If you say you are new, or ask me to go slow, I will go slow. If you say nothing, I will go fast." Since MOST people want to go fast, that makes sense. Most of the time, his parties will appreciate it. Don't just start B*(&%ing and moaning because he started fast.

And yes, if you get a party with MNK+DRG, or DRG+MNK, the mobs tend to melt away pretty quickly. That being said, if you pull them one pack at a time, your MNK won't be maintaining perfect balance. I would actually argue, that if you can pull a large group and hold em still, a large pack is still more beneficial, as long as the MNK is good. that's pretty situational though, and if you notice that your MNK appears to be doing it wrong / isn using earthcrusher or w/e AoE they have and spamming it, just pull less, so (s)he stops, so that they DPS properly, and you win.

I agree with the quote "Logic"

I disagree with saying don't make assumptions. I make assumptions all the time. Things like "It's probably safe to breathe the air in my bedroom when I wake up in the morning" "My boss most likely knows what he's talking about when he gives me specific intrusctions" and you know what? Sometimes you are wrong. It's better than the alternative.

Most people don't say anything because most tanks they've met who started to speedrun will not change their pace. They'll just keep forcing the speedrun or their pace or quit. Or force people to kick them. Other times, they don't want to say anything because of just previously said motion. Also, minor correction, MNK wants Greased Lightning stacks not perfect balance.

People don't complain about speedruns because the pace is kept timely. They hate speedruns because tanks make massive pulls that some people inwardly grumble about but because of said before reason they won't say it while the tank is still doing their thing. A Monk will still lose stacks if you just mass pull. It's pulling groups in a good pace that will keep their stacks up.

perhaps it's cos the community has such a bad reputation for being anti-new-person, that even when it clearly states "new person bonus" they don;t want to own up cos 9 times out of 10 they are going to get yelled at for the slightest mistake.
so would rather keep there head down and say nothing.

true story, I once joined an ex primal and said "hi I'm new, please carry me" and without even a response, someone quit there and then. I wasn't new, had the fight on farm for months, was bored and being silly, but it speaks volumes about the DF player base.

Those are the runs new players will remember far more than the awesome teachers and helpful players they will run into.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

#DoYouEvenTankBro?

nobody wants to sit around at the beginning of the instance, and chat for 10 minutes.

I agree with the quote "Logic"

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Oh don't get me wrong, I am entirely sure you and I are in agreement on this, but I may be misunderstood.

When I DF a dungeon, I politely say hi during loading screens, and then I wait for buffs and do a quick check on the other players.

If they're using dreadwyrm weapons or other similar gear, I'll probably pull the whole thing. If they're in i90, I won't assume they are competent to efficiently handle an entire room of mobs.
I entirely agree that most people WANT to go fast, as do I, and I would prefer to pull entire dungeons at once if I can. However, it's similar to carpentry, or having a haircut for instance. How much hair would you like trimmed? Don't sya more than you think because you can't put hair back after it's cut. Similar to a pull, if you pull more than they can handle, you can't "unpull" those mobs, you just die and start again, and wasted time.

Also a players desire to go fast and their ability to go fast are two entirely different entities.
Recently we did a dungeon with a monk, all weathered gear and an Atma weapon who kept saying "Pull more! Go faster!" Meanwhile he was being outDPS'd by a significant amount by the other DPS... and the tank... and the healer.

We continued at a rapid pace pulling 6-8 mobs at once instead of 15. It was to the benefit of the group to do it that way.

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Originally Posted by Nova_Rox

Thanks for reading the full post guys!

I asked. No one responded. Safe to assume they're alts.

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Wrong question was asked base on incorrect assumption. Ask if people want to speed run. If they don't respond and/or say yes, then do NOT speed run.

Your defaults are wrong and will invariably frustrate you. The only safe assumption is the lowest common denominator.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Good luck with your speed run that you're trying to force on new mute players :confused:.

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LOL so true like 95% of the time if you try to run a speed run with someone completely new and with no up top date gear for the dungeon level... the run will be uber slow. The only exception is when you at least got a SUPER DPS... one of those super OP that can take hate easy from a well gear tank, in which case the low dps of the new person wont matter much.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

Wrong question was asked base on incorrect assumption. Ask if people want to speed run. If they don't respond and/or say yes, then do NOT speed run.

Your defaults are wrong and will invariably frustrate you. The only safe assumption is the lowest common denominator.

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Pretty much this. Given unknown variables, you should be veering on the side of caution, not expediency.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

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For the most part, the pressure is put on the tank to pull at a speed that the part is comfortable with. Since most people want fast, your default speed, should be fast.....

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That is a false assumption. The pressure is not on the tank. The pressure is on the healer to heal that mess.

And you do NOT need 10 minutes to ask half-pull, or full pull. No response should imply half or less. And I've done my share of tanking, but when on the DF I do a lot more healing. Tanks that think they set the pace got a can of surprises going their way. Even if I main a DPS class, I heal mostly on DF because the queue is faster although not as fast as tank and I go tank when the healer queue takes too long. But moreover I can make up for a tank screwing it up more as healer, but never the other way around.

And if a tank insist on silent speed pulls, well as a healer I do this, regen, medica2, and then holy spam. Big pulls means I will holy spam the hell out of the mobs. If I time it right, which is 99.9% of the time, all the mobs are dead along with the tank but the rest of the party will be perfectly fine, and if I get it wrong the DPS will live but I will be dead with the tank. In any case, I get to recharge my MP while the tank makes the walk of shame back to the group and so much for the speed run. I won't waste that bene on the tank on a silent speed pull guaranteed. Tanks that want to pull big better be able to take big bunches of hits. The tank better be able to take the heat or get out of the kitchen so to speak.

I know this is a discussions for tanks, but let me play Devil's Advocate here. What if the Tank is new, and they say nothing? Is it on them?

I know what was already said about assuming, but I went through an AK HM run a little while ago. Tank was geared enough, though a bit sluggish. First boss, he tanked near statues and didn't hide when he got targeted. Naturally, we wiped.

Because of the aforementioned tank stigma, I assumed he was a troll and left. The possibility that he was new didn't occur to me until after.

In short, I agree with the sentiment that people need to speak up if they're new.

Pro tip: Don't be a jerk. Ever. Not even in a ranting post on an internet forum.

You're welcome.

Any other BLM's here ever see anything other than a speed run? Once the tank sees one (or even two) BLM's, it's off to the races. Which I love mind ya, but I honestly haven't been part of a leisurely paced run since the first SM dungeons.

I am honestly surprised there are so many people here with venomous things to say about speedrunning. I think once, MAYBE twice, have I ever received criticism for mass pulls. More often than not, EVERYONE is happier with a speed run. It gets things done quickly, and it prevents boredom. I gearcheck my allies whenever I enter an instance, and unless gear is seriously underpar I'll speedrun by default, and the commendations come pouring in.

If someone asks to slow down, I'm happy to comply. In general, though, folks want to get things done with, whether they are new or experienced.

I am also in agreement that it is up to newcomers to request advice. If we're talking speed runs, we're talking level 50 dungeons or higher - mass pulling on lowbie dungeons is NOT WORTHWHILE in most cases, as few jobs have decent aoe ability at those levels. By the time you've reached level 50, even if you've gotten there without a keyboard by then you've most likely created a few macros to help communicate with other players - including admitting you're new and asking for explanations if you need them.

People who are hostile toward newbies are the exception, not the rule, and it's important for newcomers to learn this. Players in general are happy to give advice and lend assistance. You won't be shunned or kicked for admitting that you're new, and you'll never learn if you don't ask questions.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

If I time it right, which is 99.9% of the time, all the mobs are dead along with the tank but the rest of the party will be perfectly fine, and if I get it wrong the DPS will live but I will be dead with the tank.

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So, the healer admits to deliberately sabotaging the run to prove a point and satisfy their own ego, when they COULD have instead worked toward a smooth and successful run. Clearly, the tank is the villian here!

Great point Lineage. The whole "GIT GUD NOOB" schtick simply isn't as widespread in this game as people make out.

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Originally Posted by cain8602

... What if the Tank is new, and they say nothing? Is it on them?

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Expecting new people to speak up is unreasonable and unrealistic. Try a new tank in sastasha on a PS3/4 without a keyboard. They may not even know how to chat in the text chat box.

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Originally Posted by cain8602

In short, I agree with the sentiment that people need to speak up if they're new.

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I advise all the newer players in the FC to announce that they are new on the DF, but you can't assume that all new player will do that. And people you meet on the DF, you need to assume that they can be possibly anything even be AFK bots or trolls and handle them accordingly, what you can not assume is that you will have a smooth speed run without everyone in agreement in the affirmative form.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

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So, the healer admits to deliberately sabotaging the run to prove a point ...

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The healer is not sabotaging the run, the big pull needs big DPS or the whole party is going to wipe. The tank is the necessary sacrifice, because if the tank is still up, then they will speed into the next room/boss/pull and wipe everyone there when the healer has no MP. Been there done that enough times to know it is better to give the tank firm shake and wake them up to be more sensible.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

...By the time you've reached level 50, even if you've gotten there without a keyboard by then you've most likely created a few macros to help communicate with other players - including admitting you're new and asking for explanations if you need them....

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More nonsensical assumptions. Many players doing FCOB don't know how to use macros, and so they just require people to be on mumble and TS and just simply call out stuff. New fresh 50s, good luck if they know that they can make macros. You'll probably have to explain to them how to put together a macro.

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BTW the speed run itself is not the problem. The problem is the speed runner. The assumptions that the speed runner makes is just plain wrong and the evidence is plain obvious from all the wipes it has caused and continue to cause. In addition the speed runners will verbally abuse the new players and force 1st-timers to skip cutscenes and that is just not the best way to do things. There is no shame in going slower or at least taking, heck 10 minutes (massive exaggeration, more like 60 secs) to communicate if you must.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

The healer is not sabotaging the run, the big pull needs big DPS or the whole party is going to wipe. The tank is the necessary sacrifice, because if the tank is still up, then they will speed into the next room/boss/pull and wipe everyone there when the healer has no MP. Been there done that enough times to know it is better to give the tank firm shake and wake them up to be more sensible.

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I'm not even remotely suggesting that wipes happen because the healer is doing it on purpose - I'm suggesting that YOU cause wipes becuase YOU are causing them on purpose. You admitted to explicitly that in your own post, which I quoted. You are timing things to deliberately kill the tank. YOU are breaking the run, not the tank, because you feel the tank needs to be "taught a lesson".

I have never had a healer deliberately try to kill me to prove a point - or if they have tried, they have failed so badly that I did not even notice the attempt. This is your own personal quirk, and thankfully the vast majority of healers are better than that. I'd imagine that many healers who would ordinarily side with you against speedruns are shaking their heads, thinking, "No, NyarukoW, please just stop talking and making us look like jerks!"

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BTW the speed run itself is not the problem. The problem is the speed runner. The assumptions that the speed runner makes is just plain wrong and the evidence is plain obvious from all the wipes it has caused and continue to cause. In addition the speed runners will verbally abuse the new players and force 1st-timers to skip cutscenes and that is just not the best way to do things. There is no shame in going slower or at least taking, heck 10 minutes (massive exaggeration, more like 60 secs) to communicate if you must.

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I've never seen these rampant wipes you're so sure are bound to happen, even when I speedrun with newbies or folks with less than top-notch gear. As I said: Players in this game are BETTER than you give them credit for. They can adapt and succeed, even when you push the envelope.

I have also never witnessed a tank browbeat players for wiping to a speedrun, on the occasions when I've played as healer or DPS. Tanks, just like all players, are mostly good people, in spite of what cynics would have you believe.

You say there is no shame in going slower. This is true. There is also no shame in trying a speedrun, then wiping, then taking things easy from then on (though on the rare occasion that this happens to me, the healer usually speaks up and encourages me to try again - that they've GOT this, this time, and I don't need to slow down for their benefit).

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Originally Posted by Gramul

But wouldn't it be safer to assume they are new?

There's really not much reason for alts in this game.

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actually theres quiet a big reason for alts. You can only get 450 poetics a week, with alts you can gear up more. I assume you can do raids with alts even if you have completed them with your main. So yeah there are big reasons to run alts'

Then there are other reasons, like there are many different races you can play, and you cant be all races on the same character so then you will be needing alts as well.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

That is a false assumption. The pressure is not on the tank. The pressure is on the healer to heal that mess.

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The pressure is on the tank to make the party feel happy. Pull the right amount of mobs. You are right, pulling a lot of mobs puts a lot of pressure on the healer. I don't have an arguement. But if the tank doesn't pull a lot of mobs, the DPS don't complain to the healer. They don't votekick the healer. They votekick the tank.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Snip!

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

Great point Lineage. The whole "GIT GUD NOOB" schtick simply isn't as widespread in this game as people make out.

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Exactly. I jumped on board with the OP very quickly. My original posts stated that most of the time, I get full commendations in my duties. Hell, I've outlined my practices on the Forums, and you know what people have to say about me? Well, read my Forum Sig. Recently, I've gotten a few comments about the "wall of text" my opening Macro is. . . but most people either ignore it, or say they love it.

and regarding the gamepad argument, I can easily hit the bow emote, using the menu, in between GCD's.

. . . to which I get more laughter :D

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

...I have also never witnessed a tank browbeat players for wiping to a speedrun....

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Now we know you are either really lucky or you are flat out forgetting or misrepresenting the facts. I still remember the first time I tried to heal WP and I was still figuring out my SCH, when WP speedruns were all the rage way back when for myths and I got in there on like ilevel47 gear (which was crap but I thought was so great). I told them I was new, and they said it was easy stuff. Needless to say it was a wipe not of my own doing when all the mobs came after me and killed me immediately on the first pull. The tank started to cuss me out followed by the DPS. They vote kicked me and I rejoined in progress to the same group and then the tank left. We got a replacement tank and he put those dps in their place telling them people are new and how everyone was new once and you can not expect to speed run everything. We cleared with basic pulls and not at world record time but we cleared, and now I am trying to pay that forward.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

The pressure is on the tank to make the party feel happy. .... But if the tank doesn't pull a lot of mobs, the DPS don't complain to the healer. They don't votekick the healer. They votekick the tank.

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Seriously, you want me to believe this load of baloney. When the pull kills the tank and wipes the party they will start cussing at the healer. And they won't vote kick either the tank or the healer because the DPS knows they will be stuck waiting often for a good long while. And if they vote kick the tank, I am out of there with tank ASAP. Tank and healer have fast queues, the DPS don't got jack over us for vote kicks, heck we'd join right back in progress to lecture the DPS if I am so inclined sometimes. I remember doing exactly that when I was learning to tank on my GLA in Cutter's cry some 9 months ago because I didn't know how to speed run and skip those mobs after the second boss. Needless to say the DPS had to shut up and put up with it. a.k.a deal with it, and I reported all their verbal harassment to the GM with their choice cussing and all. I just hope they got their penalty. And I know the same speed runners harass new WHM to kite the adds at the princess and for a new player they do not know how to do that or do it well.

For one lucky smooth speed run every now and then, the speed runners sure cause a lot problems and a lot of unnecesary collateral damage.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

... There is also no shame in trying a speedrun, then wiping, then taking things easy from then on ...

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This is a viable alternative provided that it doesn't end up with verbal abuse. But too often immediately after the wipe the finger pointing start and the bashing of the noob starts. So when I heal if I can nip the speed run at the bud, I will choose to let the tank get nailed while the party does not wipe and the mobs are dead. This sets the tone to either communicate and/or be more cautious and/or go slower.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

But if the tank doesn't pull a lot of mobs, the DPS don't complain to the healer. They don't votekick the healer. They votekick the tank.

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That's if they don't get kicked first. As a healer, I have initiated more than one vote kick for DPS who started insulting the tank for not pulling enogh at the first pull.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

That's if they don't get kicked first. As a healer, I have initiated more than one vote kick for DPS who started insulting the tank for not pulling enogh at the first pull.

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I am always 100% against vote kicking without a discussion. No matter how bad a dungeon gets, I prefer to educate, and work through the dungeon, without abandoning it. The only time I issue a votekick, is when I give advice, (which as I've stated, is typically only after a wipe or two) and people are still obviously doing the opposite of what I've said. Or if they are obviously trolling. (or doing things like, running out of a boss fight and getting locked out, for no reason)

Actually, Mister, a speed run should NOT be the default. If you were a decent person, you would ASK people if they're OK with a speed run. And only do it if they agree UNANIMOUSLY. Yeah, if there's only ONE person who rather have a normal-paced run, you damn well should do it. Now, one interesting thing is that me, as a WHM main, always thought tanks were the assholes who forced speedruns down everybody's throats.

So... I lvled a tank.

Now I see DPSses and even HEALERS running off and grabbing everybody and their mother while I deal with the first pull, then bringing them to me. Last time in Amdapor Keep I just lost my temper and worte in chat "WHM should f'ing stop pulling shit". The answer? "Then pull more". Can you believe the nerve? After I told him a thing or 2 about how dungeons are supposed to be run, he kept doing it... except this time I just grabbed popcorn and stood behind watching him die. After that the run was smooth as butter.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Actually, Mister, a speed run should NOT be the default. If you were a decent person, you would ASK people if they're OK with a speed run. And only do it if they agree UNANIMOUSLY. Yeah, if there's only ONE person who rather have a normal-paced run, you damn well should do it. Now, one interesting thing is that me, as a WHM main, always thought tanks were the assholes who forced speedruns down everybody's throats.

So... I lvled a tank.

Now I see DPSses and even HEALERS running off and grabbing everybody and their mother while I deal with the first pull, then bringing them to me. Last time in Amdapor Keep I just lost my temper and worte in chat "WHM should f'ing stop pulling shit". The answer? "Then pull more". Can you believe the nerve? After I told him a thing or 2 about how dungeons are supposed to be run, he kept doing it... except this time I just grabbed popcorn and stood behind watching him die. After that the run was smooth as butter.

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Looks like you didnt ask what your pt prefers

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

(stuff) . . .
So... I lvled a tank. Now I see DPSses and even HEALERS running off and grabbing. . .
. . . (more stuff)

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Originally Posted by Nova_Rox

Looks like you didnt ask what your pt prefers

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I'm pretty sure you just proved our point.

Your feedback, is that the DPS, and the healers, want you to pull more. Instead of kicking you, they are just pulling more.

I have an entirely different post I think in the tank forums, maybe elswewhere, where I actually posted circumstances that make this OK. For example, they pull mobs and park them right on top of mobs you are already fighting. PLD? Circle of Scorn + Flash. WAR? Overpower. You are now doing a Speed Run, because clearly your party wants you to.

People don't like going slow. Thank you for proving our point for us lol.

Meh.

I main tank on my alt(which I also raid on). At the start of every dungeon I ask "Big or small pulls? If no one replies I'll do what I think's best." And MOST of the time no one says a thing, so I'll speed run if every looks half-decently geared. I never get mad if we wipe, I just pull small the next time.

Not going to assume everyone's bad and pull small just because a healer is too lazy to type, "small" on a soft keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

You are now doing a Speed Run, because clearly your party wants you to.

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My PARTY didn't want to, the HEALER did. One of the DPSses was my Fiancée doing her first lvl 50 dungeon with her main, who CLEARLY didn't want a SR, and the other DPS was OK with either.

In that case, he did exactly that. Ran off, brought 5-6 mobs and parked next to me. What I did? stopped using AoEs, and began cycling only through the mobs I was already engaged. Healer died and learned his place. It's not by holding himself hostage that he'll dictate the pace of the dungeon run.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

My PARTY didn't want to, the HEALER did. One of the DPSses was my Fiancée doing her first lvl 50 dungeon with her main, who CLEARLY didn't want a SR, and the other DPS was OK with either.

In that case, he did exactly that. Ran off, brought 5-6 mobs and parked next to me. What I did? stopped using AoEs, and began cycling only through the mobs I was already engaged. Healer died and learned his place. It's not by holding himself hostage that he'll dictate the pace of the dungeon run.

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I honestly don't understand not wanting to do runs quickly, except in certain circumstances, such as if there are cutscenes.

Why do you want to complete the dungeon, in an hour, instead of 20 minutes? If your Fianceé is a DPS, and DPS' as best as they can, and can kill all the mobs, then great. If your healer pulls more mobs, you get threat on them, and you all wipe, THEN you say "hey, don't do that, or we won't pick them up." but why not Try?

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Yeah, if there's only ONE person who rather have a normal-paced run, you damn well should do it.

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This is exactly why people need to speak up and say that they're new/don't want to speedrun. Personally, as a DPS, I love speedrunning and will always say yes if asked. If I say yes and the healer says yes to big pulls and the other DPS says nothing, I don't feel that it's unreasonable for the tank to assume that means the party is okay with a speedrun-- after all, two out of three players explicitly stated it was fine and the other one didn't say it wasn't. How is the tank supposed to know what they want if they don't say anything?

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

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Why do you want to complete the dungeon, in an hour, instead of 20 minutes?

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How about 30 minutes if it will avoid people cussing at each other and other unnecessary aggravations? As I've stated, I don't have anything against the speed run itself, because that is neutral, the problem is the speed runner. The speed runner needs to realize that it is much easier to complete a run without wipes than a speed run without a single death, because all it takes is one player dying to make the speed run pointless because the time will be lost to the player walking back to the group.

And no single player sets the pace, this is a group effort and you can only speed run when you have everyone on board, and silent people don't exactly count as being on board. And as much as I like efficiency, there are other player who like to take it slower. And dungeons like food in RL, not everyone wants to slurp it down fast like fast food, some player prefer to savor it slowly and take their time.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

This is exactly why people need to speak up and say that they're new/don't want to speedrun....

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That is exactly why you can not assume those who are silent are in agreement to speed run. Any number of reasons could lead to to not responding and misinterpretting that can lead to wipes. You can not assume that they will speak up. I would encourage them to, but you can not assume that they are in agreement and ready to so because they are silent.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

I honestly don't understand not wanting to do runs quickly, except in certain circumstances, such as if there are cutscenes.

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Wanna know why you don't understand?
Because you don't LIKE to do dungeons. You think of them as a chore you want to be over with ASAP. You play this game thinking that Coil and Ex Primals are the only thing that matter in the game and everything else is garbage.

Simple as that. Some of us do not think like that, and want to ENJOY the experience of dungeon running. Some of us play this game to, I don't know, having FUN. Instead of thinking of everything in terms of tomestones per hour.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

you can only speed run when you have everyone on board, and silent people don't exactly count as being on board.

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Cheers

Sometimes I don't want to speedrun, sometimes I just want to relax and take it steady. I'm in no rush to burn out hammering through content on repeat as fast as possible.


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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Wanna know why you don't understand?
Because you don't LIKE to do dungeons. You think of them as a chore you want to be over with ASAP. You play this game thinking that Coil and Ex Primals are the only thing that matter in the game and everything else is garbage.

Simple as that. Some of us do not think like that, and want to ENJOY the experience of dungeon running.

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That's a bit uncalled for Alexion, some people like to speedrun for the challenge. They enjoy the dungeon, just in a different way.
I agree the default should be slow and steady, but even I like to up my usual sloth like pace now and again just to challenge myself :).

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

That is exactly why you can not assume those who are silent are in agreement to speed run. Any number of reasons could lead to to not responding and misinterpretting that can lead to wipes. You can not assume that they will speak up. I would encourage them to, but you can not assume that they are in agreement and ready to so because they are silent.

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If you are directly asked a question ("Are you okay with speedrunning?") and don't respond to it, you forfeit your right to complain when the person asking the question interprets your silence one way or the other. There's just as much responsibility on your side to reply as there is on theirs to ask.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

some people like to speedrun for the challenge.

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The guy spoke like it was highly illogical to run a dungeon in 1 hour if you can do it in 20 minutes. Hence why my conclusion that the higher challenge was not the reason behind his motives.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

If you are directly asked a question ("Are you okay with speedrunning?") and don't respond to it, you forfeit your right to complain ....

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Incorrect. BTW I always respond, but still your statement is incorrect. NO one can be forced to forfeit anything, much less their right to speak up and complain now or later. Just look at how many people that didn't vote and still complain about Obama. And don't be surprised when they do the opposite of what you'd like in protest.

I would encourage those who can respond to respond, but you can not assume that they will, and you can not impose that responsibility to them, any more than a telemarketer can impose that responsibility to you to answer their robo-calls.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

If you are directly asked a question ("Are you okay with speedrunning?") and don't respond to it, you forfeit your right to complain when the person asking the question interprets your silence one way or the other. There's just as much responsibility on your side to reply as there is on theirs to ask.

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I can think of dozens of reasons why you might be unable to respond, not least of which being that you don't speak the same language.

Silence is NOT the same as agreement.

Tbh, in my experience with the DF and asking whether people are new, know the dungeon, are cool with multi-group pulls, etc. I more often than not run into people who assume you'll take their silence as a yes or are annoyed that you are even spending the time to ask.

Many times when I have asked such questions, gotten no reply and so asked again , I have been met with "omg, just stfu and pull already!".

As a tank I am the one that most of the time has to make the decision on what to pull and how much, how quickly. Responsible tanks will make these judgments based on prior experience and what they see as the capabilities of the current party, however they can only base such judgments off the information they are provided. If I ask a question, it is because I am trying to gather information so that I can make the best judgment that I can for the good of the team. If you stay silent and do not provide me any information, I just have to go off other information or solely on previous experience which may not line up with you or what you want.

So, seriously, speak up and try to communicate with your team so they know what to expect. If someone asks you a question, try to answer it as best you can. Taking ten seconds at the beginning to establish the situation is much better than wasting minutes later wiping because people didn't bother getting on the same page.

This applies to the tanks as well, don't just do what you want to do without regard to your group. If you want to be the leader, try acting like one. Do what's best for the group and not just yourself.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Wanna know why you don't understand?
Because you don't LIKE to do dungeons. You think of them as a chore you want to be over with ASAP. You play this game thinking that Coil and Ex Primals are the only thing that matter in the game and everything else is garbage.

Simple as that. Some of us do not think like that, and want to ENJOY the experience of dungeon running. Some of us play this game to, I don't know, having FUN. Instead of thinking of everything in terms of tomestones per hour.



Cheers

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I'd love to enjoy the experience too but sadly after 51 runs of Sastasha HM I find it hard to offer you my patience.