Low probabilities of Triple Triad drops, big fish, etc. Grinds becoming unreal.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

This thread is full of people complaining about MMO's being MMO's since as long as it came into being.

RNG is luck and yes that's what it is. Don't like RNG? Go the grind route.

Dont want RNG or Grind? Get into a new category of gaming then. MMO's are not for you.

People need to stop havig such weak stomachs for every single grind in the game. I can fully understand the impatience from grinding and the RNG sometimes slapping you in the face but to expect otherwise from the MMO genre is equally silly. Pace yourselves or bulldoze through it, your only two options. Pick one and take a seat.

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This thread is also full of people choosing a hostile, judgmental route instead of a compassionate one. Is this how you treat people who have bad luck in the real world? "You were in a car accident and are now paralyzed for life, your family is dead. That's just extreme RNG, buddy. That's just life being life."

Please try to see through another's eyes. You don't have to always agree with the other person.

I'm not trying to stop MMOs from being MMOs but there are good and bad game designs. Having too many 1% chances of X happening in a game when you have over 4 million subscribers means that a large number of those subscribers will at some point have a day (or a week or a month) like mine where they log on, can't accomplish anything, feel extremely disappointed, and start questioning the value they're getting for their time. However you could change the formula to preserve that 1% up to a certain number of tries and then start increasing it. So you might have someone who's unlucky (it takes 200 tries instead of 100) but is never so unlucky they just give up (it takes 500 or 1000 tries).

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Originally Posted by Adire

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RNG and Grind are always intertwined though. Grind essentially can serve as a method to counter balance RNG through repetition or provide an alternate path to a determined goal.

The problem is with MMOs you have to be extremely careful with time requirement when developing content. If content can be grinded through quickly it will be finished equally so , hence first day zetas. But imagine all of the content was like that? The game loses value extremely quickly because there are those who can bullduze through the content.

So the developers turn to RNG as the equalizer to level the playing field for everyone, and leave it to determine how much grind is necessary thus extending the life of the game.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

RNG and Grind are always intertwined though. Grind essentially can serve as a method to counter balance RNG through repetition or provide an alternate path to a determined goal.

The problem is with MMOs you have to be extremely careful with time requirement when developing content. If content can be grinded through quickly it will be finished equally so , hence first day zetas. But imagine all of the content was like that? The game loses value extremely quickly because there are those who can bullduze through the content.

So the developers turn to RNG as the equalizer to level the playing field for everyone, and leave it to determine how much grind is necessary thus extending the life of the game.

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If you go too heavy-handed on the grind to extend the life of the game strategy, you end up with a very long, very boring game.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

This thread is also full of people choosing a hostile, judgmental route instead of a compassionate one. Is this how you treat people who have bad luck in the real world? "You were in a car accident and are now paralyzed for life, your family is dead. That's just extreme RNG, buddy. That's just life being life."

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Slow down, there, victimhood. You are voluntarily playing an MMO, a genre of video game that typically distributes rewards without regard for anybody in particular in order to lengthen the life of content.

Don't confuse sitting in a chair due to RNG with sitting in a wheelchair due to an unfortunate accident.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

Also, the comment about fishing being optional, Coil and Extremes are optional, it's ALL optional. Playing this game is optional!

Also, just because someone likes fishing doesn't mean they like fishing for the SAME fish for 13 hours. Let me achieve my goal, move on to tracking down other big fish, etc.

Your implication is that there are fishing players and Coil players and whatever players but some of us dabble in all the content. I expect it to take longer to achieve specific goals this way but c'mon. You're aware that there are 106 big fish right? 106 x 13 hours = I'm going to find a new game. 80 Triple Triad cards x 7 hours = I'm going to find a new game. At some point you have to say enough is enough

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I am aware that everything in the game is optional.

I never implicated that there are fishing players and coil players. I actually am someone who dabbles in all content...so I am sorry but I do not know where this implication came from. I was just stating that fishing is pure RNG that can really screw you over for an entire day sometimes, so if it bothers you or you dislike it maybe it isn't the type of content you should do.

Yes I am aware there is 106 big fish, as I am at 84/106 for the achievement. I started awhile after they added this achievement so I do not have that many compared to fishers who got ontop of it right away. I spent a lot of hours to get certain fish, while others I may have caught easier. So you are not going to spend 13 hours on every big fish, you cannot have fished much if you think that. Some people have a hard time with a certain fish, while you'll catch it easily, but then you'll have a hard time with some other fish, while others may have caught it easily. RNG almost always evens out.

If you find that you are spending too much time and not achieving anything then I guess maybe you should try to find a new game though, I dont know.

Also the slightly condescending tone you used on me was uncalled for, as I did not say anything rude to you in my post, so you can save it for the people being outwardly rude in their responses, which I was not.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

This thread is also full of people choosing a hostile, judgmental route instead of a compassionate one. Is this how you treat people who have bad luck in the real world? "You were in a car accident and are now paralyzed for life, your family is dead. That's just extreme RNG, buddy. That's just life being life."

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....Did you really just compare being paralyzed for life and family being dead to extreme RNG in a video game? :/

I think I am done in this thread....you have proved yourself....ineffective with this statement.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

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Incidentally the events of life are depending on if you believe in religion or not, Predertermined or aren't and are just random. No difference is it like winning the lotto. Millions play it daily but only a handful of people win and at random. Some people play their entire lives and never win big, some play once and win big. But almost one thing is certain to an extent, those who play do eventually win something. Have you ever known someone who has played Lotto or scratch offs there entire life and NEVER have won anything? I sure haven't.


Moving onto your next example, Fail-safes are good but you have to carefully control what it can accomplish and how soon it can. For the same reason you feel 200 tries is more fair then 500 or 1000 tries, there are those who feel 200 is too much and it should lower then that or too low and should be harder to get. As a developer you have to figure out the balance of what's too much or too little. At the end of the day you settle on something and that seems reasonable and walk away from it.

Most people who are against MMO Grinds and RNG, I feel haven't been playing MMOs very long at all. This is the nature of the genre, and veterans to it understand very well why it is the way it is.

I'll give you a more literal example.

There was ( and will be returning) MMO called Dungeon Fighter Online. Originally from Korea, it sports an Fatigue Point system which basically deducted one point from the 156 daily total a player is given each time you complete a room. Once your points are depleted you are not allowed to run dungeons for the rest of the day. This created an artificial grind to extend the life of the game by "requiring" players to play consecutive days to maximize there leveling.

When the US version came out however, many players on this side of the world, requested the FP system be removed and devs obliged. The artifical grind was now removed, and the players could level up to cap in a span of a few days. This eventually lead to people making alts to extend the life of the game for themselves because only one activity existed at the end of the game. What happened? The game flopped in the US because eventually players stopped playing / paying the bills and supporting the game since there was just nothing left to do.

And the version overseas, that still sports the FP system and artificial grind? Still flourishing with millions of players many even former US players.

RNG / Grind add value to your characters. Imagine if anyone could make an account power through levels and get the best equips quickly. People either quit the game, people sell their accounts for profit they made the same day and things spiral out of control very quickly.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

If you go too heavy-handed on the grind to extend the life of the game strategy, you end up with a very long, very boring game.

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This is more a reflection of the users impatience rather then bad game design.

Whether you bulldozed through it or took your time with it, Nexus lights were the same time consuming process for everyone the exact same way.

One contrast you will always see is those who feel it was the worse thing in existence and others who thought it was definitely the worst part of the relic weapons, is that one of those sets of people will claim bad game design due to impatience, while the other will complete it for what it is , a grind, but not call it bad game design.

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Originally Posted by Rankina

I swear, you people think this games grind is hard? Try PSO2 farming for 11/12* weapons and units, RO's atrocious drop rates... even the relic quest now isnt as bad as XI's.

"- Unable to catch Shonisaurus or Kuno the Killer (out of 4-5 30-45 min windows)."

I fkin lol'd.

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PSO2 is a friggin Free-to-play game (sadly) <-<
those game are mostly designed to suck out our money. So the droprates on items is incredible low - near nonexistent - to kinda "force" players to buy stuff on the cashshop.

I played once a MMO Free-To-Play(it shutted down due low content updates) and I can tell everyone,
I will never make this misstake again!

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

PSO2 is a friggin Free-to-play game (sadly) <-<
those game are mostly designed to suck out our money. So the droprates on items is incredible low - near nonexistent - to kinda "force" players to buy stuff on the cashshop.

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The rarity on items is not determined based off Free to Play or Pay to Play though. Refer to FFXIV Atmas, Ragnarok Online Card System, WOW Hero Items.

"That's MMOs for ya, bro!" is a weak defense. Also, why do people always say "you just want everything handed to you?" when someone complains about something being too grindy. Apparently people think repeating simple tasks for long periods of time in the hopes of getting lucky equals "hard work". It's a fallacy. Downing difficult content might be considered "hard work", but to hear many people in this thread tell it, winning the Jumbo Cactpot is the epitome of skillful play. "I sure did a good job getting lucky on this lottery/drop/other thing!" Yeah, ok.

People accept that drop rates will never be 100%, because you can't get too crazy will the loot pinata, but saying 1% drop rates (for example) is ok says more about you than it does about them. I play the game because it's fun. I'll keep hopping into content once I have everything if I find the fight enjoyable (like most primal fights), whereas I suspect most of you who think 1% drop rates and grinds are cool will never touch a content ever again once you get the thing you wanted from it. The key to any game, of any genre, is fun. If you're not having fun, it may be you who is in the wrong genre of games, and I don't really see a point in telling people that they should just accept 1% drop rates because hey, getting really lucky is the most important thing and is far more richly rewarding than doing anything that involves any actual skill or thought.

So what if other games are more grindy? Saying this or that game is like this or that has absolutely no bearing on this game, how people feel about it, or how "right" or "wrong" those feelings are.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

This thread is full of people complaining about MMO's being MMO's since as long as it came into being.

RNG is luck and yes that's what it is. Don't like RNG? Go the grind route.

Dont want RNG or Grind? Get into a new category of gaming then. MMO's are not for you.

People need to stop havig such weak stomachs for every single grind in the game. I can fully understand the impatience from grinding and the RNG sometimes slapping you in the face but to expect otherwise from the MMO genre is equally silly. Pace yourselves or bulldoze through it, your only two options. Pick one and take a seat.

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I spend 3 hours dueling a NPC just because I believed he might drop the Nanamo card. Please dont generalize. I dont mind grinding, but that doesnt mean I have to claim the incredible rng is fine, as you are doing.


Grinding would be a lot less of an issue if there wasnt the rare limitation in place, making it incredibly hard to beat certain NPCs once, let alone the hundreds of times you need for their cards.
On top of that, its both RNG and grind. And those 2 do not work well together.

Now I've done a combined total of 40 Duties that can drop cards without obtaining a single one. Thats not a grind, thats just pure rng.


Dont confuse this ''but its a mmo'' this is only a minigame in the actual game. Not everyone is done/bored with the rest of the game and can spend time running duties over and over for only a ''small chance'' at obtaining a single card.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

I spend 3 hours dueling a NPC just because I believed he might drop the Nanamo card.

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Should have did research beforehand? You wasted time on your own accord. That has nothing to do with bad game design. What you fail to realize is RNG is what it is. There are those who have bad luck with it and feel it's unbalanced and those who think it's just fine as is and have had better luck with it. Who are you to decide whose more right in this situation? Just because you didn't have the "luck" doesn't mean it's broken.

The limitation is there to not allow the player to steamroll every NPC thus diminishing the value of the game quickly. Also idk how good or bad you are as a TT player but I didn't find the limitation overly limiting. I did feel 30 was harder to reach then maybe 25 in comparison to how many NPCs you could logically beat with skill, however many of the NPCs you can either beat with baiting or abusing their rules and those that you can't you come back later after your upgrade.

Several guides are also already posted for each NPC on how to beat them by manipulating their AI. Your struggling now more because of your lack of research vs myself who didn't have any of this information at the beginning. But who is complaining? The person who has the information at their hands, not the one who had to figure it out by themselves.

RNG in TT is present in basically 2 1/2 ways. Getting a card, Chaos ruleset and on a lesser tangent Random ruleset however random loses more of its RNG element as you, get many more powerful cards at your disposal. The only complaint anyone can rationally make about Chaos, is against Swift because even with all the cards at your disposal he can still trump you with pure power (Marcette at the lower end). Lets not forget the regional rules that rotate daily to make these NPCs that host Random and Chaos rulesets mountains easier.

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Originally Posted by Hiruke

"That's MMOs for ya, bro!" is a weak defense. Also, why do people always say "you just want everything handed to you?" when someone complains about something being too grindy. Apparently people think repeating simple tasks for long periods of time in the hopes of getting lucky equals "hard work". It's a fallacy. Downing difficult content might be considered "hard work", but to hear many people in this thread tell it, winning the Jumbo Cactpot is the epitome of skillful play. "I sure did a good job getting lucky on this lottery/drop/other thing!" Yeah, ok.

People accept that drop rates will never be 100%, because you can't get too crazy will the loot pinata, but saying 1% drop rates (for example) is ok says more about you than it does about them. I play the game because it's fun. I'll keep hopping into content once I have everything if I find the fight enjoyable (like most primal fights), whereas I suspect most of you who think 1% drop rates and grinds are cool will never touch a content ever again once you get the thing you wanted from it. The key to any game, of any genre, is fun. If you're not having fun, it may be you who is in the wrong genre of games, and I don't really see a point in telling people that they should just accept 1% drop rates because hey, getting really lucky is the most important thing and is far more richly rewarding than doing anything that involves any actual skill or thought.

So what if other games are more grindy? Saying this or that game is like this or that has absolutely no bearing on this game, how people feel about it, or how "right" or "wrong" those feelings are.

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Often enough games that hand out things to you relatively quickly tend to die out at a much more alarming rate. Many newcomers to the MMO genre do not realize this. If you don't find it fun, then do not do it. Fun is also relative to the person. You may have fun grinding light simply because you love hearing Garuda's battle theme or have fun grinding a Siren card simply because you love Pharos Sirius.

Low and behold, you can also have fun with something and grind it, if you simply pace yourself.

Also the "That's MMO's for ya bro!!" comment you may not like but if you plan on succeeding in MMOs and enjoying them, you best accept it sooner then later otherwise you'll be very disgruntled during the play time your supposed to be having "fun" with as you say.

People in this thread do not feasibly accept that it's not 100% because if this they did, this very thread would not exist. My question to those is what is acceptable to you? Something you can obtain in less then 10 tries? How much of a % is ok if not 1%?

5%? Can you feel the difference or would you still call it 1%?

10%? Can you get it in less then 10 tries? What if you still can't beat a 10% chance? Does it still feel like 1% to you?

20%? 1 in 5 attempts, quick enough yet?

Once you go past 10%, you are getting into a zone where content can be completed very quickly in succession.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Why not just reward everyone fairly, maybe extend the grind to make up for RNG being gone? Or maybe reduce the essentialness of having good RNG luck, but make it still beneficial, as I explained about TSW's system in my previous post?

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Like removing gears from dungeon chests and put tokens in them like in the ilevel90 dungeons? But without to roll for them, and everyone get one?
Because dungeon drop also combine grind with RNG.

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Originally Posted by Rankina

I swear, you people think this games grind is hard? Try PSO2 farming for 11/12* weapons and units, RO's atrocious drop rates... even the relic quest now isnt as bad as XI's.

"- Unable to catch Shonisaurus or Kuno the Killer (out of 4-5 30-45 min windows)."

I fkin lol'd.

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There's a reason we aren't playing PSO2. This game will go the same way if SE continues down this path.

Those of us who work fulltime, have partners etc. have a finite amount of gaming time each week and to have it all wasted on grinds with no progress just feels like a waste of time.

I enjoy Triple Triad, I am at 40 cards which is probably above average. But I know that to enjoy it fully I will need 60 cards and right now the grind is reaching the point where I'm having to decide whether the potential fun of hitting 60 cards is worth the sacrifices it will require elsewhere. I shouldn't have to put in the equivalent of a fulltime job to make the game enjoyable.

Newsflash: It's 2015 not 1995 or 2003. Grindy MMORPGs are not liked any more.

The only people happy with these grinds are those who have no job, life commitments or anything that could stop them playing 16 hours a day. They love the grinds because if they weren't there they would run out of content after a couple of weeks and be bored. SE shouldn't be catering to this style of addictive gaming.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Fishing is totally an optional thing in this game...if you do not enjoy the thrill of finally catching that fish that has been haunting your nightmares for weeks then it is not the content for you and you should probably try to do something else. The RNG for fishing some of those hard fish is bad, but its for people who like that sort of thing.

Triple Triad Card drop rate I can attest with fact is not that bad so idk what you are doing that you are not winning cards. In one day I went from starter deck (plus one dungeon card) to having 27 cards, all of which I won off of npcs (I also barely knew what I was doing since I hadn't played TT since FF8 in like 1999). Today I started at around 35 cards and went up to 46 or something. All won from npcs save one I got Ahriman from Dzemael dungeon. Yes, my RNG might have been a tad better than some people, but that is way too many wins of cards for it to be just all luck. Sometimes I even went to an npc and got a card first win. (This wasn't like non stop TT all day either, I took breaks for eating, chores, other in-game activities, and even coil for like 3 hours)

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As someone playing a lot of TT - you got very lucky with drops. Some of the 5 star drops are stupidly low (Gaius comes to mind). I don't necessarily think it needs to be nerfed hardcore, but some of them do feel a bit too low.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Those of us who work fulltime, have partners etc. have a finite amount of gaming time each week and to have it all wasted on grinds with no progress just feels like a waste of time.

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And some people with fulltime jobs, partners, kids, hobies other than XIV also don't mind the grind. Don't pretend just because you think it's not worth the time that others dont.

I never have any luck when it comes to rng/luck based things when it comes to games. It took me the most amount of time grinding for Atma amongst my FC members back then. Despite spending almost the same amount of time grinding.


As of now, I have ZERO progress on my Zodiac for TWO weeks now because despite running Hullbreaker and Amdapor Keep 2-4 times per night (the amount of time I have on weekdays, about 6-8 runs total per night) and whole day on both Sat and Sun, the dungeon drops I need to progress the quests, has not dropped. Meanwhile, I have folks telling me they ran at most 7 to 10 times before getting their drops. Yes I know it's "low" chance of dropping but this is just soul crushing for me.

I have spent most of my playtime queueing for these dungeons and trying to obtain these items, I have forgone leveling my Crafting and Gathering, having fun at the Gold Saucer or many other things the game has to offer. Is it my choice? Yes, of course, I can just ignore my relic ffs, but no, I have spent too much time and resources on it, I went broke trying to meld this thing. I'm broke again because of the crafted material.

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Originally Posted by Taban

As someone playing a lot of TT - you got very lucky with drops. Some of the 5 star drops are stupidly low (Gaius comes to mind). I don't necessarily think it needs to be nerfed hardcore, but some of them do feel a bit too low.

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http://i.imgur.com/oK3gEEP.png



This is after having gotten these cards already also. This kind of luck is not possible I don't think? Seems like they have not bad drop rates.

This is me trying to get Gaius, which yes is a harder card to get, it is a 5 star card. OP is saying they could not get ANY cards though...
If you are going after a 5 star card then yes expect to spend a lot of time, I personally still do not have Gaius which is why right now I am here at Imperial trying to get it.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

And some people with fulltime jobs, partners, kids, hobies other than XIV also don't mind the grind. Don't pretend just because you think it's not worth the time that others dont.

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I dont mind the grind either, but that doesnt mean I have to argue for arguments sake and claim that a grind + heavy rng+ high difficulty is fine.

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Originally Posted by Miste

http://i.imgur.com/oK3gEEP.png



This is after having gotten these cards already also. This kind of luck is not possible I don't think? Seems like they have not bad drop rates.

This is me trying to get Gaius, which yes is a harder card to get, it is a 5 star card. OP is saying they could not get ANY cards though...
If you are going after a 5 star card then yes expect to spend a lot of time, I personally still do not have Gaius which is why right now I am here at Imperial trying to get it.

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That just shows you are arguing without actually knowing the rates of the cards you are talking about. The imperial has a pretty high drop rate on both 2 and 3 star cards.
Higher then most npcs do in fact.
I've read what the OP said about not getting any cards at all. But I've also read not a single other person mentioning not getting any cards.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

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I see you are done with pretending, and full out with insulting. No matter, I will respond properly to your reply.

There was no research, as noone actually knew.I did not waste my time, as the example was ment to illustrate how I do not mind grinding. If I did, would have I have fought that npc for 3 hours straight on the mere off chance of him having a card? No.


How good you are at TT or not, has nothing to do with this. As Kenji explained quite well already in another thread I believe: you will need to farm NPCs for their cards to reach 60. And some NPCs are simply too strong too farm.
This is where the rng comes in, since some might have gotten a rare card from defeating a npc once or twice, where the actual average rate might perhaps be 200 wins.
This is rather bad design, imo. Fighting these npcs is challenging, and rightfully so.
But to have their reward depend 100% on rng?

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Several guides are also already posted for each NPC on how to beat them by manipulating their AI. Your struggling now more because of your lack of research vs myself who didn't have any of this information at the beginning. But who is complaining? The person who has the information at their hands, not the one who had to figure it out by themselves.

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And more insults. I do not believe I mentioned struggling on any npc. (altho certain npcs are definately hard to defeat, by anyones standards) I would strongly advise you to actually read through peoples posts before you post your bile.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Lets not forget the regional rules that rotate daily to make these NPCs that host Random and Chaos rulesets mountains easier.

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I believe you mentioned research? Well, if you had done more research you would know that certain npcs are unaffected by regional rules.

I rest my case.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

People in this thread do not feasibly accept that it's not 100% because if this they did, this very thread would not exist. My question to those is what is acceptable to you? Something you can obtain in less then 10 tries? How much of a % is ok if not 1%?

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We are not a mob, we are individual posters in here. There is no ''people in this thread''
Please dont make a complete fool out of yourself.

RNG is why I won't bother with relic anymore. There's no skill, just luck and I hate how relic is just a way to make high level players spam low-level content.

With that said, I do like how these cards drop in dungeons/trials. It atleast encourages me to do my daily roulette (and get gil) instead of igonoring them

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

That just shows you are arguing without actually knowing the rates of the cards you are talking about. The imperial has a pretty high drop rate on both 2 and 3 star cards.
Higher then most npcs do in fact.
I've read what the OP said about not getting any cards at all. But I've also read not a single other person mentioning not getting any cards.

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1. If you look at my posts and actually read them I was never "arguing". I was saying that to me the drop rates do not seem that bad as to encourage people to maybe attempt more or different npcs to get more cards. Since I had a large sample size from multiple npcs I was trying to share my experience, yes others might not get as many cards but you'll likely obtain some.


2. If you look at my post I asked a question "This kind of luck is not possible I don't think? Seems like they have not bad drop rates". I appreciate the info that Imperial has a higher drop rate than other npcs, but in essence you are just doing what you are claiming I am doing, "arguing without knowing the rates of the cards". Where is the proof Imperial has higher drop rate than other npcs?


3. Refer to number 2, I said "Seems" like that have not bad drop rates, never did I say they factually have not bad drop rates. It is just my personal encounter with a lot of npcs, not only the Imperial, that cards seem to drop often enough.


4. I was talking to OP, and about OP's experience with TT, not anyone else. So other people not getting any cards is irrelevant.


5. I find it amusing you are calling out that other poster for being insulting when every post you have made in response to mine has had you insult me in one way or another, even if it was in a more passive way.

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Originally Posted by Miste

5. I find it amusing you are calling out that other poster for being insulting when every post you have made in response to mine has had you insult me in one way or another, even if it was in a more passive way.

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Oh? I thought I merely responded in kind. After all, I do believe you claimed that the card drop rate was quite high, in a rather condenscending way. Only to provide a rather poor example.

You mention every single post, when initially I only counter argumentated that contrary to your believe the droprate is quite random, and fairly low for the cards that are discussed about. (those needed to reach 60~)


The reason why I did made a rather cutting remark at you is because you seem to twist arguments in your favor.
For example:

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Originally Posted by Miste

If you look at my posts and actually read them I was never "arguing". I was saying that to me the drop rates do not seem that bad

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Originally Posted by Miste

I said "Seems" like that have not bad drop rates, never did I say they factually have not bad drop rates.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Triple Triad Card drop rate I can attest with fact is not that bad so idk what you are doing that you are not winning cards. In one day I went from starter deck (plus one dungeon card) to having 27 cards, all of which I won off of npcs (I also barely knew what I was doing since I hadn't played TT since FF8 in like 1999). Today I started at around 35 cards and went up to 46 or something. All won from npcs save one I got Ahriman from Dzemael dungeon. Yes, my RNG might have been a tad better than some people, but that is way too many wins of cards for it to be just all luck. Sometimes I even went to an npc and got a card first win.

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Bolded for emphasis. Now I understand that you are overjoyed to have found a partner in crime in this thread, but please; if you try to counter my arguments by turning them around, please put more effort into it.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Since I had a large sample size from multiple npcs I was trying to share my experience, yes others might not get as many cards but you'll likely obtain some.

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Your sample size was actually pretty small, as attested by others. For example your screenshot of the imperial shows a good many lost matches (which means less results). Compare that data of yours to: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ular-day-of-TT

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Originally Posted by Miste

I appreciate the info that Imperial has a higher drop rate than other npcs, but in essence you are just doing what you are claiming I am doing, "arguing without knowing the rates of the cards". Where is the proof Imperial has higher drop rate than other npcs?

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Link above. I assumed that you read threads about TT frequently, seeing you presumed expertise on the matter?

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Originally Posted by Miste

I was talking to OP, and about OP's experience with TT, not anyone else. So other people not getting any cards is irrelevant.

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We were discussing the drop rate of cards in general, how is it not relevant?

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Originally Posted by Miste

I find it amusing you are calling out that other poster for being insulting when every post you have made in response to mine has had you insult me in one way or another, even if it was in a more passive way.

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Then please try to respond in a way that does not have me facepalm..with both hands.

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Originally Posted by Rankina

I swear, you people think this games grind is hard? Try PSO2 farming for 11/12* weapons and units, RO's atrocious drop rates... even the relic quest now isnt as bad as XI's.

"- Unable to catch Shonisaurus or Kuno the Killer (out of 4-5 30-45 min windows)."

I fkin lol'd.

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Drop rate in FFXI was not bad at all, my thief had things dropping non stop even before the Treasure hunter was revamped.

That is what XI had over XIV a thief to boost drop rates.

Relics are easy in FFXI now and solo

Back in the days yes relics were a nightmare and LS's who done them actually disbanded after 1 was done.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Oh? I thought I merely responded in kind. After all, I do believe you claimed that the card drop rate was quite high, in a rather condenscending way. Only to provide a rather poor example.

You mention every single post, when initially I only counter argumentated that contrary to your believe the droprate is quite random, and fairly low for the cards that are discussed about. (those needed to reach 60~)

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So you took my typed words, decided for yourself that they were condescending (they weren't, I was just sharing my experience with TT), then proceeded to openly insult me because of this perceived condescension.

Some advice...you shouldn't infer things from what people type and then insult them. What you perceived was not there, so then you are just insulting someone for no reason. I am actually the type of person that if you said you had a hard time beating a TT npc I would actually try to help you if I had a strategy I made for it.

Also all those edits you just made makes you seem even more rude. The attest with fact statement was correct because it was a response to OP that she apparently got no cards all day. So yes factually it is not that bad. Unless you were trying to get a 5 star card, you will get cards from npcs with that much time to try it.

Perhaps they should just let everyone press a button that gives them everything they want without having to do anything!

And then people will not sub. People NEED goals in an MMO. The base gameplay is too repetitive to keep people subscribing w/o them. By making some goals easy (hitting 50) and some goals difficult (ponies) you have a nice balance. It also makes sure certain things are rare - making it so not the entire player base can have something creates a sense of accomplishment that otherwise wouldn't exist. Because after all, it is just a bunch of pixels that don't mean really anything.

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Originally Posted by Silvanoshi

I have to agree.

I gave up crafting a long time ago --- Spiritbonding for gathering materia (if I even get the right one) sucked big time. I'd rather have havens or whatever it was from 1.0 for crafting/gathering.

As far as other aspects of the game... Lights were horrible. So were books. I'd rather see synched EX primal fights to bring back that old Titan HM feeling when darklight was good gear.

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No offense but I hope the game never goes in the direction you like. Books were easy, lights even easier. Gathering is good and crafting is one of the best in any MMO I've played.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

I believe you mentioned research? Well, if you had done more research you would know that certain npcs are unaffected by regional rules.

I rest my case.

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Only NPCs that have Random/ Chaos that are not affected by regional rules and are not incredibly easy to beat are... le gasp Swift & Rowena (who gets owned after the Triple Decker I achievment)??

Other then them? Absolutely none.

You may not be "struggling", if you say so, but you seem to be complaining about a drop system that's easily farmable as well. What NPC outside of Swift is so incredibly difficult to farm for these drops? Players have already documented countless strategies with 90%+ win ratios to destroying almost every single NPC. Even Swift, the hardest in the game at current, has a strategy against him.

Are all of these NPCs easy? Of course they are because the AI is so proficient at being baited and manipulated that it makes every fight that doesn't involve Chaos a steamroll, yes even Random is piss easy after your first Deck Upgrade.


In your own words :

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Fighting these npcs is challenging, and rightfully so.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

How good you are at TT or not, has nothing to do with this.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

And some NPCs are simply too strong too farm.

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Actually it kinda does. To say any NPC is difficult to put on farm, is the first indication that you are perhaps not as good as you assume so. Only Swift is truly difficult to defeat.

Even if say you are not the best of players, with strats already formed giving you 90%+ win ratios, how is this diffficult?

You seriously just sound like many who complain they have not gotten a 5 star card in hrs of playing. It's a 5 star card for said rarity.

It's like opening countless amounts of booster packs and not getting the Legendaries. Please stop expecting the best of the best to be handed to you so easily. The RNG and rare card drop rate is perfectly fine. Take a look at how many people have 60 cards already. Several people on my small time server have the Triple Decker II achievement. I can't imagine the situation on bigger servers.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

As Kenji explained quite well already in another thread I believe: you will need to farm NPCs for their cards to reach 60. And some NPCs are simply too strong too farm.

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You also do not need to farm every difficult NPC for these 60 cards. Your road to 60 does not need to be as weary as you seem to suggest. Easily completed trials/dungeons + booster packs already make up a heavy portion of the cards able to be obtained. In fact you can map a road to 60 cards and avoid even the remotely difficult NPCs.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

without enter into a debat, i want to say they don't complain about the fact is hard.... but the fact it's tedious and boring. it's more a chore than a game, and on this they are right... personnally i had a feeling of accomplishement for the first step of the relic, when i did finally beat titan.... after this, no step of the relic did make me feel like this. they are cheap, easy and boring.... they are not fun, they are the worst example of grind the boring type that if you want to catch up will simply hold hostage all your other progression.
while the book period, i was unable to equip another character since all my mark was going into the book, while the light period i can't play other jobs and class. that fact, the relic force us to play to a different game. ff14 allows a lot of freedom in what you can do without character, but the relic is like playing another game where you have acces to only one jobs.

so far most of the grind we have in the game have become tedious, because SE want absolutly please hardcore gamer... screwing the other with stuff extremely long and uninteresting... by the way you want to know the best? it's pointless most of the content are simply destroy by the hardcore even with adding stuff at 1%....

i know that grind is part of the mmorpg, but recently we must admit the game have become grind land.... nothing extremely fun from it. do i feel that i have done something after reaching a goal? nope.... because is not hard, just repetitive.

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It's not about catering to the hardcore. It's simply about increasing longevity to the game and adding value to items. If everyone can get things super fast, it cheapens the value of the item in itself on top of leaves nothing to be desired and people move on much quicker.

I agree with you on what the Relic turned out to be, involving a grind. But does no one remember how the original Pre Zenith Relic went? SEVERAL POSTS on these forums complained about the difficulty of Titan HM ALONE. Many wished this was never repeated again and many asked SE to not lock content that only the capable "hardcore" players can accomplish. Well this is the result of the feedback taken form. Everything is now repetitive ez mode boring grind so that no one can feel left out.

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Originally Posted by Nadrojj

No offense but I hope the game never goes in the direction you like. Books were easy, lights even easier. Gathering is good and crafting is one of the best in any MMO I've played.

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without enter into a debat, i want to say they don't complain about the fact is hard.... but the fact it's tedious and boring. it's more a chore than a game, and on this they are right... personnally i had a feeling of accomplishement for the first step of the relic, when i did finally beat titan.... after this, no step of the relic did make me feel like this. they are cheap, easy and boring.... they are not fun, they are the worst example of grind the boring type that if you want to catch up will simply hold hostage all your other progression.
while the book period, i was unable to equip another character since all my mark was going into the book, while the light period i can't play other jobs and class. that fact, the relic force us to play to a different game. ff14 allows a lot of freedom in what you can do without character, but the relic is like playing another game where you have acces to only one jobs.

so far most of the grind we have in the game have become tedious, because SE want absolutly please hardcore gamer... screwing the other with stuff extremely long and uninteresting... by the way you want to know the best? it's pointless most of the content are simply destroy by the hardcore even with adding stuff at 1%....

i know that grind is part of the mmorpg, but recently we must admit the game have become grind land.... nothing extremely fun from it. do i feel that i have done something after reaching a goal? nope.... because is not hard, just repetitive.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Then please try to respond in a way that does not have me facepalm..with both hands.

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Haven't really been a part of this discussion, but many of the points you pointed out that he said were very moot. You're more concerned with breaking his argument than the view point he is espousing. He experiences are just as real as yours and what he said has a quality of truth in it that you seem to want to ignore to build your own narrative.

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Originally Posted by Miste

http://i.imgur.com/oK3gEEP.png



This is after having gotten these cards already also. This kind of luck is not possible I don't think? Seems like they have not bad drop rates.

This is me trying to get Gaius, which yes is a harder card to get, it is a 5 star card. OP is saying they could not get ANY cards though...
If you are going after a 5 star card then yes expect to spend a lot of time, I personally still do not have Gaius which is why right now I am here at Imperial trying to get it.

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Just as an example of what some people are going through on that same npc http://i.imgur.com/tQhVbPH.jpg

The Gaius card is very elusive. Having at least played over a minimum of 900 games. (minimum due to not factoring in draws and losses, making the total even higher) :/

Over the past 2-3 days, I've aimed towards the Setzer top (which I now have ^^), and started to play against the Indolent Imperial at 17k MGP ending on 97k MGP. Even though my Win/Draw/Loss ratio is about 7/2/1 (I think), I still haven't obtained it.

A few people have posted their screenies of cards attempting Gaius on Reddit (maybe on the official forums too) but nevertheless, here's my collection:
http://i.imgur.com/Z1TMtKR.png

Realistically, at this point, grinding 2000 wins against him would be more of a probability to obtain Gaius lols. I'm new to TT so I love the game and I can play it day and night without being bored, but once I stop enjoying it I guess I won't get that card...

The only positive thing I will say however is the fact that no matter how bad the RNG is, I can (theoretically) continue until I obtain it. Unlike Final Coil where I've cleared T10 since the 2nd week 'til present day with no signs of my DRG gloves, is disheartening because of weekly lockout.

In comparison, Final Coil is so much worse...

Totaly agree with OP... see, i have some friends completing final coil every week and they don't got at least 1 piece, while i see other peoples with FULL SET! I really loved the relic zenith, the best grind ever and you don't need this f* RNG. RNG all the way.

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Originally Posted by Diana_Pepper

The Gaius card is very elusive. Having at least played over a minimum of 900 games. (minimum due to not factoring in draws and losses, making the total even higher) :/

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Gaius is no doubt rare but sometimes RNG plays a greater role, IMO. I think your case have already exceeded the average case for Gaius. Took me about 6 hours of grinding to get the Gaius card, I have about 50 of each of the other 3 cards from the Imperial and earned about 20k MGP from him as a result or something (if fact I got it without knowing cos I kind of lose heart and just farmed for the MGP as well). While I was grinding, in one of the hours there was 5 persons who shouted they got the card within one hour; one of my FC mate was farming him purposely for the MGP (he already broke 60 cards for some time and just want the MGP) and he even got repeated Gaius drop.

Meanwhile, the whole of last night I have been running Shiva HM, and I still haven't got her.

Queued big keep together with Shiva, I wanted the Gilgamesh card for the 60 cards unlock since Gilga is 3 stars and should be easier. Bartz dropped instead.

These cards drops when I least expect them to be... RNG + the desire sensor from SE is strong.

The issue with Gaius is that they probably want you to complete Praetorium to help new players, not grind the Indolent Imperial. Try that instead.

I bid now the return of Kraken Club.

i think the only thing worse with all the grind and abuse of RNG, is all the new players. you try to farm a drop from the coil, wipe countless times because every df must have at least 2 noobs, and then kill it 50 times only to see the item you want drop once, and then roll a 2....

the game is addictive, i'll give it that, but with all the grind, rng, new players who dont watch the videos & feel it is everyone's job to carry them, and content recycling you back into the same old content, how is this supposed to be fun?

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Originally Posted by Illya

The issue with Gaius is that they probably want you to complete Praetorium to help new players, not grind the Indolent Imperial. Try that instead.

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Legit enough, but Hildibrand have the same drop rate as the Imperial though. There is no instance to get Hildi :/

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

These cards drops when I least expect them to be... RNG + the desire sensor from SE is strong.

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Rofl. My friend thinks like this too! He believes it's a conspiracy against him when he wants something and SE's 'desire detector' detects that and says "Not today!". xD

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Originally Posted by Illya

The issue with Gaius is that they probably want you to complete Praetorium to help new players, not grind the Indolent Imperial. Try that instead.

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I have been thinking about running the raid but I'll probably try once I get pooped out playing against Indolent Imp. :/

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Originally Posted by Diana_Pepper

Rofl. My friend thinks like this too! He believes it's a conspiracy against him when he wants something and SE's 'desire detector' detects that and says "Not today!". xD

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I think it is true. Most of my drops or anything RNG related, I get them when I least think of it.

Even my Odin card was one-shot from Urth's Fount. I was so overwhelmed with healing cos pugs took so much damage and my mind was so occupied, and tada, the card dropped.

Another example: farmed WoD for over 40 rounds on patch week, BRD chest only drop once and I lost roll. Gave up hope on that and just picked whatever seems good which is ninja chest. Next week entered as BLM (sec job) and wanted the BLM chest. Whole party not a single BRD when the patch week was full of BRDs, like literally every run was 3-4 BRDs. Deep in my heart I joked that SE must be fucking trolling me. What if BRD chest dropped?

HOLY SHIT IT DROPPED. I rolled GREED, and I as the only one who rolled. Lmfao.

Meanwhile I have ever gotten my HA bow, and T11/12 have been on farm for months, almost every BRD and their mum has the bracelet and pants and I am still not getting it. Maybe I need to stop thinking about them too :(

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

*Quote*

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Mine have been mixed.

Eg.1 Back when Second Coil had weekly lockout, I wished for HA Bow (was playing healer/bard at the time) and it dropped + I outrolled the other Bard. (Sorry about your HA Bow. It sounds awful) :(

Eg.2 When I found out there was a Kan-E-Senna card I immediately sought out the NPC who dropped her card. (she's my favourite character in FF14. She's so pretty both personality and appearance. ^^) After playing the NPC 3 times I received it. Rofl.

On the flip side.... DRG gloves (and I guess Gaius card atm) wishing for them isn't working. xD

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Originally Posted by Diana_Pepper

Snip

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I have sold like 5 Ramuh and a handful of the 3 star drops and still no Kan-E :(

The only consolation is I'm probably far from the worse. I've known people who had to run 66 rounds of Aururm Vale for the dungeon drop for Zodiac, and there's this dude on Reddit that had over 100 of each of the 2-3 star cards from the Imperial before getting the Gaius.

In the meantime I need 5 more cards to 60... Ahriman, Sagahin, Demon Wall, Gilgamesh and Shiva. All 3* and below (edit, okay, Shiva is 4*) hoping it will be easier.