Level 50 Dungeon Level Syncs

if pharos got a realistic sync tanks would actually have to not let wolves rape the healer
and actually pop a cooldown
and dodge

and clearly that's just too hard for a damn lot of them

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

if pharos got a realistic sync tanks would actually have to not let wolves rape the healer

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That video you linked showcases the DPS ignoring the mechanics more than the tank. Ideally, the DPS should switch their focus on the wolves instead of tunnel-visioning Symond. This way, each pair of wolves can be dealt with safely and the tank doesn't have to risk getting 3 stacks that will blow up. Speaking of the tank getting corrupted crystal stacks, you made a risky move of running near your tank and in front of the boss. Not only is this a bad idea in general, you also had a Corrupted Spit hit your tank because of your running by them.

Overall, the DPS were bad for putting too much focus on the boss and not minimizing the amount of stacks each party member could potentially get. The tank could have held onto the adds, but seeing as the DPS stopped concentrating on them for a while after the first pair, they would've ate more stacks than they should have, take unnecessary amounts of damage, and risk getting KO'd. While your attempt to make the tank take them off you is understandable, it was also reckless and the reason why is clearly shown in the recording.

Well, I say remove it. It's pointless and it removes any need for me to run any of those dungeons honestly. Besides, it isn't like my queues weren't filled with many persons "under"geared.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

More fun and engaging goes out the window after the 5th time in a row running the same dungeon.
Doing anything too many times in a row will get tedious. At least if you're significantly stronger than the "intended" level, it goes faster

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Agreed.

Personally I don't agree with lv sync.

So far we have been pushed back into these dungeons over and over and overrrr...at one point they gotta let them get old and move on to new and better things.

I hope eventually allowing solo entry with NO sync at all is added. Errr, 7 years from now I hope we are not still redoing wp, or copperbell to progress in some other way ...just ewwww Oo

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

While I agree it would be nice for all the reasons you've mentioned above, I kinda think that if, every time you ran a level 50 dungeon, it was always a 'struggle' so-to-speak, it would tire out level 50 players who are sick of running the same content over and over again and would discourage them from queueing for these roulettes in the first place.

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this pretty much sums it up, if they make them by any means more tedious and slow them down, might as well just throw them out the window. after the 39203920392. time in any of the dungeons you just want to get through with them.

My personal opinion?

Much as I would love all the content to be fundamentally challenging, I find it odd that people consider it an all-or-nothing issue. I'd be happy if the level-sync were adjusted to allow speed running but not 'face-rolling'.

Wanderer's Palace (normal) went from challenging, to speed-run-able-if-you're-capable .. to stupid easy. And it's been the same with most all dungeons since. What's wrong with setting the level-sync to engage at that mid-point where it can be speed-run if you're willing to deal with it being do-able but a bit more dangerous? No speed-runners were complaining back when trying to speed-run risked getting yourself killed, when the dungeons available at release could be speed-run fairly reliably when you'd started trying to earn the best kit available shy of the 'hardcore' stuff like the Coils (plus that gave a bit more meaning to meeting someone had Alaghan stuff).

Hey, hey, remember when people were impressed by 'normal' Alaghan stuff? You know, those powerful ancient relics that were supposedly unsurpassable?
.. Stupid vertical progression format.

instead of ilvl sync, they could slow down on the gear progression. It's so boring that new content gets old in just a couple of months. Instead maybe upgrade ilvl once a year and release a big set of new dungeons. Getting new gear and all that every 3 months makes it so pointless to even get gear in the first place

I like the OP's idea, but I think it should be an option, which grants you more Sol and Poetics should you choose to sync down. Maybe allow a group vote or something right when you zone in. That way you can choose runs that last longer, but pay off better, or runs that can be steamrolled, but pay less.

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Originally Posted by Fensfield

My personal opinion?

Much as I would love all the content to be fundamentally challenging, I find it odd that people consider it an all-or-nothing issue. I'd be happy if the level-sync were adjusted to allow speed running but not 'face-rolling'.

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its old content, old content should die, noone wants to repeat the same dungeons for years. if they get face-rolled they get face-rolled period. New content is what keeps a game fresh not repercusing people to go through old content even SLOWER.

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Originally Posted by Damane

its old content, old content should die, noone wants to repeat the same dungeons for years. if they get face-rolled they get face-rolled period. New content is what keeps a game fresh not repercusing people to go through old content even SLOWER.

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Don't invest in content that can be played into the game's lifespan, creating an array of ever more interesting ways to challenge your players new and old. All that matters is 'NEW CONTENT'! Let the old content DIE and the resources used to make it burn on the endless fires of the gear treadmill!!

Everyone? This is how you take the MMO genre's promise of an indefinitely profitable game, and ram it into the ground in less than the decade S-E are already considering an optimistic lifespan goal.

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Originally Posted by Fensfield

Don't invest in content that can be played into the game's lifespan, creating an array of ever more interesting ways to challenge your players new and old. All that matters is 'NEW CONTENT'! Let the old content DIE and the resources used to make it burn on the endless fires of the gear treadmill!!

Everyone? This is how you kill an MMO.

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It worked for World of Warcraft for more than ten years. Not that I agree with it (don't mistake that, please), but new content completely supplanting the old is kind of standard...

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Originally Posted by File2ish

But, on the other hand, syncing down more could arguably make the content more fun and engaging again since we wouldn't be severely overpowering everything in the dungeons as much as we already do.

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I say actually make these random dungeons actually HARD and not incredibly easy and stop nerfing every thing.
Hindering our gear won't make nothing engaging, it's already too easy to begin with.
I miss pre-nerf AK, never did pre-PS.

Old level 50 cap dungeons are not fun to do, there is almost no reason to do them unless you are working on a relic. They should not put level sync on them it really servers no purpose at all except make the runs take longer which I do not understand why. I almost will never run a high level roulette because I lose 20 ilvls doing those dungeons and it takes longer then doing non ilvl capped stuff.

I definitely think a scaleable ilvl sync needs to be applied from WP onwards to maintain the relevance of the content. So sorry speed running end-gamers, if you are so desperate to speed through things to get items, and demand that the content be left faceroll easy, why don't you just ask for item hand outs for needy lvl 50 players? I mean what is the difference? You complain about having to grind these dungeons for the relic upgrade questline, and demand that they be kept as easy as possible to facilitate a mindless and fast grind for *your* convenience. since the content takes no real effort from you, and you'd like to do it in as little as time as possible, effectively you are treating these speed runable dungeons as limited effort handouts for lvl 50 players in need of items.

From my point of view, it sure seems like you wish for game content to be made irrelevant for your convenience, no matter the impact on others. That's pretty selfish.

Dunno why, but this article resonated;

http://hothardware.com/News/ea-devel...verage-players

...since it features the head of EA saying that games are too hard to learn because it takes an average gamer 2 hours to learn a game, and therefore they need to be made easier....translation "too difficult, takes too long, make easier, take less time, happy gamer."

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Originally Posted by Fensfield

Don't invest in content that can be played into the game's lifespan, creating an array of ever more interesting ways to challenge your players new and old. All that matters is 'NEW CONTENT'! Let the old content DIE and the resources used to make it burn on the endless fires of the gear treadmill!!

Everyone? This is how you take the MMO genre's promise of an indefinitely profitable game, and ram it into the ground in less than the decade S-E are already considering an optimistic lifespan goal.

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Quoted For Truth.

I understand what the OP is saying but I dont agree. At this point its just "PAY BACK!!" I remember running WP and AK wearing little more then AF gear. The mobs didnt pull any punches then, so why should we now? Let them "FEEL THE PAIN!" lol It might be nice to have a option to run old stuff at item level, but it would be a hard sell to get many level 50 players to use it. "remember this is just my opinion"

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Originally Posted by Damane

its old content, old content should die, noone wants to repeat the same dungeons for years. if they get face-rolled they get face-rolled period. New content is what keeps a game fresh not repercusing people to go through old content even SLOWER.

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I disagree. Keeping old content relevant via Level Sync and iLevel Sync is one of the greatest things this game offers. And I'll say it again, I wish we had more iLevel Sync, because I enjoy going back to old content once in a while and it makes it so much less fun if everyone is just steamrolling through it mindlessly.

iLevel Sync really needs to be:
2.0-2.1 - i90 (Except for Castrum, Pretoriam, AK and, WP which are your vary first level 50 dungeons i80)
2.2-2.3 - i110
2.4-2.5 - i130

The other exception would be Coil which can be tuned to:
BCoB i110
SCoB i130
FCoB i150

This is what I would LOVE to see in the game!

i wish the ilevel sync would show the stat changes on the item card like how level sync does

my average item level isnt above the cap, but my gear that is above the cap is definitely getting reduced stats, but it doesnt show by how much

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Originally Posted by SlyRoyale

That video you linked showcases the DPS ignoring the mechanics more than the tank.

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That was always the biggest issue in that fight. DPS with a 'do it faster' mentality who would ignore the adds and that very quickly lead to a dead healer and a dead tank.The DPS have to take the adds, and trying to take down the 'boss' faster just brings the adds even faster, making it more difficult to handle and leading to a healer running for their life - and a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Cutie_McSnuggles

stuff

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That would further alienate those instances. There needs to be a reason for persons to go into those instances already, so forcing them to party with ignorant people (unknowledgeable; new) would... it would hurt lol. Titan HM still sucks.

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

Titan HM still sucks.

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i can attest to that

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

That would further alienate those instances. There needs to be a reason for persons to go into those instances already, so forcing them to party with ignorant people (unknowledgeable; new) would... it would hurt lol. Titan HM still sucks.

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What hurts is people who cannot show patience and civility and remember it's a game that is meant to be played, not an inconvenience meant to be overcome.

Hear, hear! I cannot agree more with you Kosmos! Let's not forget that there are new players logging in every day, which is what keeps the game going strong, and most of them (myself included) are there to enjoy the content of this great story as it unfolds. I remember my first time in one of the new level 50 dungeons I was excited to check it all out and was thoroughly disappointed as the tank just ran as far and as fast as he could, assuming I knew what was going on and expecting me to keep up and heal him. I heartily agree that the ilvl sync should be adjusted a bit more to make the content relevant for all players. Looking for a speed run? Ask your Free Company or a friend. Players are already rewarded for their time with extra tomestones, which is what they are there for in the first place. For me, it can be just as fun sometimes to help new players through a dungeon for the first time, ensuring their experience with the game is a good one overall. /endrant

While I'm cool with the idea of the dungeons being level synced, I found that i110 for even dungeons like WP and AK still made it a breeze.

On the other hand, if they increased the level sync to what was originally available for those dungeons, it would become a hassle for players doing it for their relic. If I had to run a WP as a lvl i45-55 constantly and just had to ensure how long it took for one drop that didn't drop...

The level syncs are kinda silly since the i110 allows most content to be face rolled. Adjusting it further down would make it a hassle.

NOW! Talk to me about level syncing the old raids like Crystal Tower and then I'll be on board!

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I never understood why all throughout 1-50, all of the dungeons have a very small minimum and maximum level range, then you reach level 50 and suddenly there was no max at all. Even now with the ilvl sync, the gap is huge, and, as the OP says, pretty meaningless. We still overgear the content so much that we just blow right through it.

I'd maybe say stricter ilvl sync and increase rewards, but will this even make the dungeon more fun? Probably not by much, if at all. Maybe for new players.

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tl;dr you only farm your gear from raids, just to use it ONLY for this raids again. This makes sense indeed.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

While I'm cool with the idea of the dungeons being level synced, I found that i110 for even dungeons like WP and AK still made it a breeze.

On the other hand, if they increased the level sync to what was originally available for those dungeons, it would become a hassle for players doing it for their relic. If I had to run a WP as a lvl i45-55 constantly and just had to ensure how long it took for one drop that didn't drop...

The level syncs are kinda silly since the i110 allows most content to be face rolled. Adjusting it further down would make it a hassle.

NOW! Talk to me about level syncing the old raids like Crystal Tower and then I'll be on board!

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I hate to sound.. whatever the word is; it's late here. Either way you do make a good point but:

It sounds to me like the flaw isn't so much with the ease with which a dungeon can be done over and over.. and more with the necessity to do it over and over and over for a deeply questionable chance at progression. So making the dungeon laughably easy seems a great deal more like trying to fix one issue by manufacturing another.

That said .. was this particular grind not implemented simply for people who just kind of wanted something to grind? After all the dev's are always putting in the effort to make sure equivalent stuff is available not only through completing challenging content but simply collecting and then hurling tomestones at Rowena's lackeys.

I really do have trouble seeing any issue that people are giving against level-sync-for-fun's-sake that couldn't be resolved by modifying the reward/s proportionally and/or a reduced reliance on wonky design decisions or assumptions that every single part of the game necessarily needs to appeal to and be completable by every single player. And the arguments against that don't seem to hold up in the face of merely finding different, less insulting ways to make older goals more easily achievable (which is something else I don't really agree with to be honest, but whingeing about one thing at a time >.>).

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

AK was sac pulled (don't recall WP sac pulls, but maybe), but after the gates were added they were still speed ran. And even in i90 gear you could kill Demon Wall before gnats, or kill Anantaboga while ignoring Catastrophes. Or just ignore/mass aoe the tonberries at the King. . .

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True, but yus, WP didnt have the oils for the doors so you could run and die to bosses at launch.

I dont mind the new dungeons as they increased opwer of trash but reduced them a hella lot compared to older dungeons. EG one of the main problems with AV, SV normal is the amount of trash there is, which makes em pretty dull as you spend most of the time grinding through waves and waves of trash.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

I dont mind the new dungeons as they increased opwer of trash but reduced them a hella lot compared to older dungeons. EG one of the main problems with AV, SV normal is the amount of trash there is, which makes em pretty dull as you spend most of the time grinding through waves and waves of trash.

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Sorry, but that just doesn't scan. Logically speaking, based on what you said, are you sure you even want a dungeon? Why not cutout the middleman and make each dungeon nothing more than a boss battle since you clearly see regular dungeon mobs as nothing but a hindrance in completing the boss fight as quickly as possible.

I agree with the OP, but it probably wont solve one of the major problems I have with the end-level roulette mentality; people assuming you also have done the dungeon enough times to do it blindfolded.

Me and my friend queued up for a 50 dungeon that neither of us have done (both of us dps). And although the chat-log clearly informed the party that at least one person is doing this for the first time, tank and healer blazed off, pulled 5 groups, and we had to catch on to the plan and aoe things down. Once we reached bosses, we fought them. No explanation was given, and no time was given to ask, "Hey, is there anything we need to know about this fight?". Only getting yelled at when we did some thing wrong (that isn't obvious unless you knew the fight).

After completing the dungeon and reflecting back on the run, it didn't feel like me and my friend did a dungeon. It felt like we were two lead weights that were inadvertently being flailed about as the tank and healer were sprinting to the finish-line. Even though we completed the dungeon successfully, it certainly wasn't enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by hallena

I think both level and item level sync should be optional. As patches goes my character is getting stronger. If i want to solo run and wreck everything in a lvl 20 dungeon or speedrun WP normal run with friends, stop trying to stop me.

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Completely agree. I still haven't been able to clear Odin since I preferred to do the main story after the patch when all the good players on the data center got the clear. I can't wait until I am level 80 and can crush him in under a minute so SE better not levelsync him or the EX primals I am missing or at least make it optional.

Hate it. Even the whole level sync makes me writhe in agony.

The idea that low level content almost always takes x2 or x3 longer when geared than its lvl50 counterpart to me is just silly.

I find that one of the most rewarding and satisfying reasons to play mmorpgs is to get stronger and develop your character.

Level/item sync is just a massive wall to this. I understand its purpose, but to me it's just not warranted enough.

Imagine how great it would be to take one of your mates through some old content who really needs it for the clear or the gear, and being able to just go in together and smash it, without being burdened by queue times or required roles.

If you can only use the full capability of your ilvl 110+ gear in a small percentage of the game content, then it really minimizes its overall value.

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

if pharos got a realistic sync tanks would actually have to not let wolves rape the healer
and actually pop a cooldown
and dodge

and clearly that's just too hard for a damn lot of them

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What happened in that video had nothing to do with the tank and everything to do with the DPS. They were burning the boss and completely ignoring the adds, which is a huge no-no in that fight. With how overpowered we are for the dungeon at this point, burning the boss down just makes adds spawn FAST until it gets to the point where you're overwhelmed, you get loaded with stacks, and you end up getting one shotted by the explosion. Running around near the tank and getting them hit with additional stacks was a bad judgement call, too.

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Originally Posted by SlyRoyale

That video you linked showcases the DPS ignoring the mechanics more than the tank.

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Yup. DPS should be on those adds ASAP. When I tank this, I hit whatever adds I can with shield lob, but I'm not dragging that boss around and picking up more stacks myself. As DPS, I burn the adds as soon as they spawn. The two white mages I usually run with are able to handle adds on their own if all else fails (i.e. bad DF DPS ignoring them like in the video). Swiftcast Holy is pretty damn powerful considering our current item levels.

if you overgear it as much as typical today, why are you running 2 whm?

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

if you overgear it as much as typical today, why are you running 2 whm?

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Uh. No offense, but that's kind of a silly question. I said I have two white mages I usually run with, not that I run with both of them at the same time. All of us have multiple roles at 50 and well geared (i115+), so one runs WHM and one runs BRD/BLM. The point is, neither of them have a problem with putting the hurt on some adds instead of just kiting them to the tank. Hell, I sometimes heal it on SCH and smack the adds around with energy drain/ruin II.

I think it should be removed. I worked hard to level up and gear up, why punish me by nerfing my stats?

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Originally Posted by allecs

I think it should be removed. I worked hard to level up and gear up, why punish me by nerfing my stats?

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Its not punishing you, its helping the lower players as stated many times before. Say you're doing a roulette or working on a book, or for whatever you need to do a level synch dungeon for. Say you get Sastasha you go in full ilvl120+, you could probably solo the dungeon. How would a new tank or healer be able to actually do their job? A new tank couldn't hold aggro off you and your HP wouldn't even probably move so a healer wouldn't be doing much, no learning. A caster DPS class may not even get a spell off before the mob is dead. Everyone always says that the early dungeons are for learning your role. You can't learn anything if don't actually get to play your role, leading to further complications after 50 content.

They're working hard to level up too, you were there once, give em a break. Remember there is no "I" in MMO. Don't be "That Player", oh wait.......

Isnt it just a prenerf for expansion? Do you expect to do lvl 50 dungeons unsynced on level 60 o.O

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Its not punishing you, its helping the lower players as stated many times before. Say you're doing a roulette or working on a book, or for whatever you need to do a level synch dungeon for. Say you get Sastasha you go in full ilvl120+, you could probably solo the dungeon. How would a new tank or healer be able to actually do their job? A new tank couldn't hold aggro off you and your HP wouldn't even probably move so a healer wouldn't be doing much, no learning. A caster DPS class may not even get a spell off before the mob is dead. Everyone always says that the early dungeons are for learning your role. You can't learn anything if don't actually get to play your role, leading to further complications after 50 content.

They're working hard to level up too, you were there once, give em a break. Remember there is no "I" in MMO.

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Then they just sit back and relax. *Shrugs*
No other game punishes you for leveling up and no one has complained about an over geared high level one shotting things in a dungeon....ever. You should learn your class before you enter dungeons in my opinion...that's what the big ol open world is for. I practice pulling and healing in between dungeons, not when I get in them.

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Originally Posted by allecs

Then they just sit back and relax. *Shrugs*
No other game punishes you for leveling up and no one has complained about an over geared high level one shotting things in a dungeon....ever. You should learn your class before you enter dungeons in my opinion...that's what the big ol open world is for. I practice pulling and healing in between dungeons, not when I get in them.

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Sit back and relax, hmm, "why am I playing this game? To watch other players do what I should be doing?. Solo tanking and healing in the open world, big challenge there.

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Originally Posted by Eye_Gore

Sit back and relax, hmm, "why am I playing this game? To watch other players do what I should be doing?. Solo tanking and healing in the open world, big challenge there.

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Almost everyone here watches other people play. Hence the whole "watch the video first or get out scrub!" mentality.

You pretty much always solo tank. But no, I grab these magical things called "friends" or join fate parties. I either pull as much as I can and practice my tanking rotation, holding aggro. Or I have people not dodge aoes and grab big pulls to practice my healing. So far, I've never gotten a complaint and always get complimented on my tanking/healing skills.