Final coil in duty finder

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Originally Posted by Tyrn

If something is put in the DF it gets nerfed to the point where it's doable with even the worst possible combination of jobs due to the random nature of the DF, this harms everyone who wants to try the content the way it was intended.

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This. Just look at the mockery of T7 that it was turned into post DF implementation.

And there is harm to puting something in DF that may result in group compositions that cannot be reasonably capable of completing the duty.

I'm glad it will be in DF from the get go in Heavensward. I really want to actually be able to get in to Alexander and experience the story, then later go back for he challenge.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

I couldn't believe that Shiva EX was kept out of DF at first, that easily could have been cleared.

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Every duty is kept out of DF until a patch or two later. This is nothing new.

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Originally Posted by Tyrn

If something is put in the DF it gets nerfed to the point where it's doable with even the worst possible combination of jobs due to the random nature of the DF, this harms everyone who wants to try the content the way it was intended.

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I see more harm in the potential for a duty to end up unclearable due to party composition.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Every duty is kept out of DF until a patch or two later. This is nothing new.

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A short list of level 50 duties that were in DF at release:

Ultima Weapon HM, Extreme Ifrit/Garuda/Titan, Hard Ifrit/Garuda/Titan (in 2.0, when being a hard mode primal meant something, grumble,) The Chrysalis, Battle on the Big Bridge, Battle in the Big Keep, Ultros, The Wanderer's Palace (Hard), Amdapor Keep (Hard), Keeper of the Lake, Snowcloak, Sastasha (Hard), Qarn (Hard), Hullbreaker Isle, Tam-tara Deepcroft (Hard), Stone Vigil (Hard), The Lost City of Amdapor, Brayflox's Longstop (Hard), Halatali (Hard), Haukke Manor (Hard), Pharos Sirius, Copperbell Mines (Hard), Wanderer's Palace, Amdapor Keep, The Praetorium, Castrum Meriadnum.

The trend of Extreme-tier fights not being available in Duty Finder didn't start until Leviathan, and many people have remarked on the harm it causes on servers where filling a learning PF is not tenable. Coil was a sole exception, as it was designed from the get-go to be unpuggable.

Also, fights don't gain echo or nerfs because they are put into Duty Finder. They're put into Duty Finder because they're about to receive echo and nerfs, and many fights that were considered unpuggable before Echo were still fights you could solo queue in. It's basically an admittance by S-E that, after Leviathan, they couldn't trust themselves to design 'hard' fights capable of being pugged any more, even though every non-Ramuh EX Primal was widely considered very easy to learn and farm.

(Again, all problems that are solved by tiered difficulty.)

You ever duty finder T9? Don't. I've tried it about 17 times and I'm done. People use it as a chance to go in 'blind' and are unable to learn fast enough so the party disbands in minutes or you make it to phase 4 on the first try, wipe and someone ragequits out. Frankly I don't know who's worse, the unwarranted ragequits (keyword is unwarranted, I'm not suggesting people waste their time in an obvious fail group), or the people who go into it blind... it's just way too hard and you are wasting everyone's time unless you are SURE you can learn fast...

Fairly sure final coils will be much much worse than what I just described. It might work for the JA gamers but NA is not good at working together in duty finder situations.

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Originally Posted by Krr

The trend of Extreme-tier fights not being available in Duty Finder didn't start until Leviathan, and many people have remarked on the harm it causes on servers where filling a learning PF is not tenable.

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I would actually see this as an argument for a cross server PF capability rather than placing content in DF that could potentially cause more issues than it helps.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

I would actually see this as an argument for a cross server PF capability rather than placing content in DF that could potentially cause more issues than it helps.

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Yes, but that would take months to develop, and in the process 3-4 more patches of content will be made. That's assuming it's even on their dev cycle list to make right now. A stopgap is necessary, and DF is that stopgap.

The only harm caused by putting content in DF is demonstrating that it has badly-designed arbitrary DPS composition requirements. Content doesn't mystically get nerfed just because a bunch of people tried it in DF and wiped forever. If that were the case, Titan (Hard) would have been nerfed in some magical 2.05 patch that didn't happen.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

I would actually see this as an argument for a cross server PF capability rather than placing content in DF that could potentially cause more issues than it helps.

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Or a check box that says "Noob" then it would pair you with other people who checked off noobs so it would hopefully have the effect of not pairing people who just want to practice with people who want to clear.

Editing editing

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Originally Posted by Krr

Yes, but that would take months to develop, and in the process 3-4 more patches of content will be made. That's assuming it's even on their dev cycle list to make right now. A stopgap is necessary, and DF is that stopgap.

The only harm caused by putting content in DF is demonstrating that it has badly-designed arbitrary DPS composition requirements. Content doesn't mystically get nerfed just because a bunch of people tried it in DF and wiped forever. If that were the case, Titan (Hard) would have been nerfed in some magical 2.05 patch that didn't happen.

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Honestly I get your point for those on low pop servers but just think that having DF put together a group with 3 Mdps and no brd for coil would lead to outcries of make this content DF-able. Or double WHM or double SCH /cringe.

The design of the game does make certain combinations of jobs much more effective than others. It is baked in the game so intrinsically at this point and would require a lot more time to strip out than adding a cross server PF capability.

I guess your point though is even if the combinations given by a DF group would mean failure even before you started, you'd still rather have it as an option. I could just see stuff like, ugh double WHM vote abandon. No brd vote abandon. Etc. so those waiting in queues for hours just to vote abandon or have people quit right when they zone in? Maybe it's worth it... I don't know. My opinion is it isn't but obviously it is only opinion. SE would have to deal with those outcries/complaints if they were to come from adding FCOB to DF.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Or a check box that says "Noob" then it would pair you with other people who checked off noobs so it would hopefully have the effect of not pairing people who just want to practice with people who want to clear.

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My issues are purely with the fact that many un-nerfed coil fights require relatively specific party combinations to have a good chance of success. The solution you propose does not handle that concern. My earlier posts state that and I recognoze that you may not have connected those with me when you offered this solution.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

My issues are purely with the fact that many un-nerfed coil fights require relatively specific party combinations to have a good chance of success. The solution you propose does not handle that concern. My earlier posts state that and I recognoze that you may not have connected those with me when you offered this solution.

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Well if composition is an issue I presume SE can easily set up the duty finder to give you exactly what you need classwise so you don't end up with 2 white mages, 2 warriors and 4 summoners or some crap like that lol

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Well if composition is an issue I presume SE can easily set up the duty finder to give you exactly what you need classwise so you don't end up with 2 white mages, 2 warriors and 4 summoners or some crap like that lol

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They could but it will depend on if SE wants to continue making figuring out the best party combination as part of the challenge or if they are going to for go that and hand you the solution to that on day one.

i would rather see a cross server PF solution than an adjustment to DF matching algorithms to be specific for each fight.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

And there is harm to puting something in DF that may result in group compositions that cannot be reasonably capable of completing the duty.

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Wish they would make different levels of difficulty in the DF (NM, HM, EXtreme) like other MMO's (TERA comes to mind and if you've played that, it you know it has more mechanics geared for moving targets, etc.), rather than nerf it after the fact.

But what can you do? SE will eventually move stuff in the DF, down the road, when the game dwindles a bit in population, like other MMO's have done, and they'll have to put it in DF as a contingency plan to off-set the server populations. OR cross-PF like you said.

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Originally Posted by Tyrn

If something is put in the DF it gets nerfed to the point where it's doable with even the worst possible combination of jobs due to the random nature of the DF, this harms everyone who wants to try the content the way it was intended.

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Titan Ex would disagree.

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Originally Posted by Kazumac

I guess your point though is even if the combinations given by a DF group would mean failure even before you started, you'd still rather have it as an option.

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My point is that jobs and encounters shouldn't be designed to arbitrarily require crappily designed jobs like Bard, make two Scholars incapable of interacting with each other, or enforce a division of n melee and n ranged DPS, or n players who can do an on-demand silence despite stun and silence being largely interchangable as 'interrupt' mechanics, or arbitrarily enforced healer/tank diversity.

I say this as someone who's DFed, PFed, and organized premade statics. They're not fun mechanics to organize around, they don't give jobs "identity" or "uniqueness", they just waste time in place of actually enjoyable, skill-based and job-agnostic mechanics.

They're also usually fights where the rest of the group doesn't really do anything fun or interesting. You don't interact with like 80% of T7's interesting mechanics unless you're the kiter, in which case you have to carry all those mechanics on your back. No one except the Bard did anything interesting for the first 3 pulls of T2 despite the entire trash gauntlet taking like 5 minutes and being at least half the encounter. And stuff like 'bosses who require so much DPS you're constantly out of TP so now you arbitrarily need a Bard to sing Paeon!' aren't interesting interactions between the player and the boss, they're dry mechanics where you have to bring n guy to use y skill at exactly 4:00 minutes or else the party arbitrarily loses.

(Like seriously, we have like 10 full class kits of unique abilities, many of which are utilarian in nature, and MP/TP song is somehow the only solution we get to this problem? God that's boring design.)

Basically what I'm saying here is I don't give a damn if bad mechanics like Renauds or High Voltage need to be nerfed for DF because they weren't interesting to work around in PF in the first place, unless your definition of 'interesting content' is screwing around with tedious party organization that usually boils down to 'Guess we don't have a bard, let's wait 30 minutes in PF!'

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

No, stuff is impossible to beat in DF because for every person who goes in ready and capable of beating it, there are two who come in completely blind to the fight and expect it to be cool. They don't mention that they are new and they can't do anything but hinder the players who do know.

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Tis the same on EU servers with the added extra of players going in with no clue have english selected and have no understanding of English so communication becaomes impossible anyways. Or totally ignore anything written in chat whatsoever.

What makes me shake my head, is that players complain when asked to read a guide about a fight, yet they expect others to write a guide to explain every thing to them when they neter the instance *boggle*

actually i bet they will add fcob to duty finder and remove weekly loot lock once patch 2.5 part 2 comes out late march. since form then to heavensward it will be at most 4-6 weeks and adding it AFTER launch makes no sense since lvl cap makes it totally pointless to be run for loot. nobody is gonna do that since all are busy leveling to 60. so adding it before 3.0 is imo a very good choice. hopefully the devs are this smart to see that. it makes no sense to block players completing thier gearsets when said gearsets are useless after 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Windklinge

actually i bet they will add fcob to duty finder and remove weekly loot lock once patch 2.5 part 2 comes out late march. since form then to heavensward it will be at most 4-6 weeks and adding it AFTER launch makes no sense since lvl cap makes it totally pointless to be run for loot. nobody is gonna do that since all are busy leveling to 60. so adding it before 3.0 is imo a very good choice. hopefully the devs are this smart to see that. it makes no sense to block players completing thier gearsets when said gearsets are useless after 3.0.

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Hopefully this. Give me the damn bracelet xc

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Originally Posted by Krr

Lots of stuff that I don't disagree with...

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So you want the fight changed such that they are DF-able from a job composition perspective... not a difficulty perspective. I would be happy if encounters were designed like that (though I believe with current class design it would be challenge, major changes would be needed). Hopefully they will take that into consideration for future content development.

But at the moment to do this with any speed and minimal dev resources it is the removal of mechanics which ultimately results in an easier fight. This kinda makes me /sigh but with my schedule I'm probably not pushing into FCOB until this happens anyway so it doesn't really affect me.

Other options might be to keep the fights as they are but allow people to switch classes while in the DF before engaging in the boss fight? Probably some room for abuse here but might increase the possibility that randomly put together groups could adjust if their compositions weren't quite conducive to the content.

FCOB in DF ... purpose is to discourage static grps or others like eng/jpn only coil groups...

I have seen in Scob DF
e.g. Healers/Dps with Zenith wpn
Players doing "gentleman pose" on heavens-fall.
Healer LB in t9 phrase 2 when only tanks died.

In fact I rather suggest SE to drop more treasure chests if group has more 1st timers than tomestones.

Classic Example in another post
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...T7%29-What-the...

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Originally Posted by rappa

Ok, you queue DF, nobody stack on the charge and one player or 2-3 die.
Wipe and disband, good game :D.

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Poor excuse for not adding things in DF.

Not adding things to DF lengthens the life of the content. In my experience, it's harder to put a group together than actually playing the content. If SE placed Final Coil in DF (even w/o nerfs), more people would be able to clear it and run out of things to do quicker. SE doesn't want this.

There are many good players that don't have time to commit to a set schedule and have no static group to clear content. DF will be helpful with this. It's an automated and more efficient PF if you're not bothered on who you'll be grouped together with. I've yet to hear a good explanation on why new content are not placed immediately in DF aside from "mechanics too hard, randoms will just fail". Trying content with random people on your own preferred time is better than not being able to try it at all.

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Originally Posted by Windklinge

actually i bet they will add fcob to duty finder and remove weekly loot lock once patch 2.5 part 2 comes out late march. since form then to heavensward it will be at most 4-6 weeks and adding it AFTER launch makes no sense since lvl cap makes it totally pointless to be run for loot. nobody is gonna do that since all are busy leveling to 60. so adding it before 3.0 is imo a very good choice. hopefully the devs are this smart to see that. it makes no sense to block players completing thier gearsets when said gearsets are useless after 3.0.

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That's what I see happening as well. 2.55 will essentially be what a 2.6 would have been. Add final coil to DF and get rid of weekly restrictions in wod and add twine to it

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Originally Posted by Evangela

good luck trying to get past 3% of the bosses' HP with DF group.

not until they nerf Final Coil in a year later or so.

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Who are you kidding, most DF groups will wipe to T10's trash

I do not see an issue with adding it to duty finder... as long as there is 0 nerfs. even if 95% of duty find groups cannot even pass 70% on T10.

The real question is why would anyone want to use a duty finder for content at this level. Half the DF groups are wiping in WoD still, what will happen on fights that are 10-20xs harder.

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Originally Posted by Felis

I can imagine that AF2 will be ilevel 130 as starter gear for lv60 content. I'm sure that the ilevel of lv51+ dungeon/non-star crafted gear will lower than the ilevel of coil3 gear

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Yup. I think lvl 60 the gear we will get will be 120 or 130 as starting endgame gear. And I'm thinking i90 ~lvl52/53(I'm thinking main story will be required to go into heavensward main story and i90 is iirc the current highest requirement so makes sense to keep going from there.)

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Originally Posted by Windklinge

actually i bet they will add fcob to duty finder and remove weekly loot lock once patch 2.5 part 2 comes out late march. since form then to heavensward it will be at most 4-6 weeks and adding it AFTER launch makes no sense since lvl cap makes it totally pointless to be run for loot. nobody is gonna do that since all are busy leveling to 60. so adding it before 3.0 is imo a very good choice. hopefully the devs are this smart to see that. it makes no sense to block players completing thier gearsets when said gearsets are useless after 3.0.

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Not everyone will be getting the expansion so leveling to 60 will be for some but not most. To be honest I expect heavensward somewhere end of May start of July not sooner. And frankly I wouldn't be surprised if coil will be dropping some nice EXP and bonus EXP with new people around by that point to make it interesting for people it still run it.

I honestly don't see a problem with having at least some content that requires a committed group working together. This is an MMO, not a single player game; there should be some things that have to be approached as a static group, not as a group of randoms.

I think a lot of people view statics as being far more complicated than they have to be. Are there some statics who are hardcore and raid multiple days a week for hours at a time? Sure. But there are also just as many like mine and like the one I sub in for sometimes, which are just groups of players who enjoy playing together and like to challenge content together. Mine raids for maybe a total of three or four hours a week, often less because sometimes people can't all be online at the same time. Half the time our raid times end up being a case of "Oh hey, all 8 of us are on, let's go for a little while." We still were able to down T9 in about a month. Now we're excited to get to try our hand at Final Coil.

What incentive is there to get to know other players and put a group together if everything is DFable right off the bat?

Even when the newest 8 man raid does inevitably become DFable, I wish it would be locked under at least 2 kills required to unlock in DF. This will prevent people going in blind causing wipes and headaches name calling etc. 2 kills is also to prevent the noobs that just buy clears. By the time anything hits the DF it should be easily farmable considering SE give it ample time to be beaten until they release it in the DF.

I wouldn't mind this 2 kills to unlock for EX-Primals as well.

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Originally Posted by DoubleD

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If you don't want to deal with this issue then just go in with a fully formed group.

The DF was mostly added so players who could not obtain a premade group to atleast have access to the content.

The solution you provide has plenty of backlash to it when Endgame content becomes outdated by a higher ilvl Endgame content and can lock plenty of people from accessing it because they could not find groups to help them.

If fcob went to DF, isn't that mean the loots will now be farmable since you can enter and clear it as many times as you want? I have a feeling that it will probably goes DF on 3.0 though.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

just go in with a fully formed group.

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This really goes both ways. Why don't they do learning on pre-formed groups? It's also a server issue. Even for farm parties, small pop servers have a very hard time forming pre-made. And I guess same could be said for forming pre-formed learning parties.

The big problem is not enough people even attempt to try it until it gets nerfed. Thus actually learning (or never learning until they actually get carried) the fights way way way after they were implemented into the game, which causes this huge rift of every 1 person to know the fight, being grouped with 2 or 3 who don't.

Once it becomes obsolete content, I figure the kill lockdown should also be unlocked. But theres gonna be a ton of people who can easily clear FCoB, and their weapon will not drop while its under a weekly lockout, and sadly will have to DF it with and deal with all the blinds.

And i'm not sure if there's an official statement anywhere, but judging how they stager releasing content in DF after making it pre-formed party only, I do think they designed it so that things appear in DF after they are considered easily farmable.

I use DF expecting to get clears, not having to write a guide.

The only exception is a legitimately new player starting the game and you can usually tell by their gear.

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

Who are you kidding, most DF groups will wipe to T10's trash

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Yes because most people who have cleared t9 are garbage.

Whatever makes you feel better.

With hunts giving i130 for free, coil has already been nerfed via gear upgrades.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Similar what we’ve done in the past for the previous Coil content, Final Coil will be added to the Duty Finder at some point in the future; however, I do not have a concrete time frame to share with you at the moment.

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Hold on a second :o "Similar what we’ve done in the past for the previous Coil content"...
Does it mean that you are going to nerf fcob for duty finder just like you did with scob? This is really outrageous O.O;

I'm so going to get flamed.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Yes because most people who have cleared t9 are garbage.

Whatever makes you feel better.

With hunts giving i130 for free, coil has already been nerfed via gear upgrades.

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The problem with coil in DF and why i'll never go back and try it is that people cant be bothered to at least watch a video first. They wait and hope they get carried through it.

Sorry, you're not breaking my back.

If you excuse for not watching a video is "I want to experience it" ... well then.. experience it with a preformed first.

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

Who are you kidding, most DF groups will wipe to T10's trash

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Not with a ninja. And even can get past everything except first group with any other job.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPuYysnbwGc

Apropos of nothing: S-E, please include a (Legacy) mode when FCOB is nerfed so that players who want to do the hard version like...can. Yes it'll probably be dead content, who cares because it doesn't really cost anything but a few instance servers to make.

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Originally Posted by SinisterIsBack

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This. They say they "want to experience it," and then after the first wipe and them not knowing any of the mechanics whatsoever, you end up having to spend 15 minutes writing a guide for them. It's not fair at all. Do you think I would have ever gone into T5 in df without knowing anything? Hell no. I watched several videos and even took notes. Going into coil blindly and expecting people to do all the work/explain everything to you is lazy and selfish. I've gotten to the point where if I'm in a DF coil and someone is completely clueless I tell them to take 10 minutes and watch a guide on youtube. It'll save us time in the long run.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

I honestly don't see a problem with having at least some content that requires a committed group working together. This is an MMO, not a single player game; there should be some things that have to be approached as a static group, not as a group of randoms.

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Yeah, that's nice and all until the game dies down and those "committed" players stay "committed" to their own groups and you'll be going "waaahhh, there's no one joining this group I formed in PF; waaah, no one in the FC is available; waaaahhh LFG is dead".

It would be nice to have this MMO implement a contingency plan now rather than later and to have the option (key word here) to group with friends and tackle hard content rather than it be forced to group with people you don't know because, let's face it, friends leave, FC's die and those "randoms" you look down on will be the only source of manpower you have for tackling that content.

I'm showing my age, but I made life-long friends in MMO's by grouping with them when I first knew them as "randoms". And unfortunately those friends move on to other MMO's, so it's a cycle. You haven't experienced it yet (doesn't sound like you have) so I wouldn't put my eggs all in one basket if you seriously want to play this game long time.

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Hold on a second "Similar what we’ve done in the past for the previous Coil content"...
Does it mean that you are going to nerf fcob for duty finder just like you did with scob? This is really outrageous O.O;

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Do you really have to ask?

Everything gets nerfed eventually. If BCoB and SCoB are any indication, FCoB will be no exception.

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Originally Posted by Krr

No one except the Bard did anything interesting for the first 3 pulls of T2 despite the entire trash gauntlet taking like 5 minutes and being at least half the encounter.

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I must have imagined running t2 as MNK and having to silence the ADS (same with t1) or when I ran as PLD having to silence, or using silence on SCH with Selene also. Good to know :P Theres very few fights in game which cant be done with 2xSCHs and thats mostly due to large party based damage, aka turn 13. Turn 12 is manageable with 2 SCHs, as the only real AE damage is rebirth which can be mitigated with Succor and Fey covenant. Turn 12 gives plenty of time to AE heal with 2xSCHs after nerve cloud.

Having the "optimal" set up does make it easier, but outside of needing a WHM and SCH for turn 13, everything else is doable without the perfect set up.

And tbhh, wouldn't surprise me if some managed to clear t13 with double SCH XD