FFXIV - A Step to P2W (My 2.45 Feedback)

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Originally Posted by lynyan

that wording doesn't even remotely say anything about gil or money though, it's just telling you the bare bones facts: trading the band isn't a violation of the tos. which is obvious.

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I doubt the person who sent a GM ticket didn't explicitely ask about people trading the bracelets to other people for a Gil fee. I know I wouldn't have wasted time waiting for a response if I had asked a stupid vague question like:
"is it authorized by SE to trade Wedding Bracelets" since herp derp it's written on the wedding page and MogStation that both people need one and that you can buy more than one and trade those ...

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Originally Posted by lynyan

wait you mean, SE didn't put all this into the game on purpose and the cash shop ISN'T the terrible game destroying monstrosity i thought it was? SORRY BUT THIS CANNOT BE TRUE *buries head in sand*

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It's just the most likely conclusion. Given that they don't deem trading the Bracelets a violation of the ToS (No idea on gil), we can safely assume that the Bracelets were intentionally set to be tradeable for the reasons I've stated above. I do think that the whole "selling for gil" issue was an oversight by the developers they weren't expecting. In short, it is the player that decides to sell it and it is the player that decides to buy it that is causing this whole pay-to-win fiasco that we are discussing about.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

we can safely assume that the Bracelets were intentionally set to be tradeable for the reasons I've stated above. I do think that the whole "selling for gil" issue was an oversight by the developers they weren't expecting. In short, it is the player that decides to sell it and it is the player that decides to buy it that is causing this whole pay-to-win fiasco that we are discussing about.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

I'd like to believe that the main reason why the the Bracelets were made tradeable was so that you could gift your friends that want to have a Gold or Platinum plan, but are unable to purchase it themselves, as a present and a sign of goodwill. What happened instead was the players selling them for gil instead. This is not a pay-to-win by standards, but it was made that way by the players.

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I don't think it is out of SE's skill to code a web page where you enter the name of your friend to gift him/her his/her Wedding Bracelet in game, via the Mog Post, and BOUND TO HIM. If that was really an oversight, there would have been statements and a hotfix already.

that's a canned response just saying exactly what is already stated: you buy the bands, and then you can trade them. the problem here is players found a way to exploit this and turned it into an rmt service. i HIGHLY doubt this was intentional, cool your jets friend.

Paranoid people are paranoid.

I definitely do not like the cash shop.

But come on, this is complete overreaction. Do you really think people are going to get rich selling dyes? You're reaching. RMT is always a problem, but i110 gear is not game-breaking.

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Originally Posted by Hyunckel

If that was really an oversight, there would have been statements and a hotfix already.

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There already was a statement. They only mentioned that it was not a breech of the ToS to trade the Bracelets, but they didn't mention about selling the Bracelets for gil. We can conclude that it was not their intention nor did they expect people to sell it for gil.

As for the coding, it's not as simple as you claim it to be. You have to consider how they're coding the page and how it communicates with their databases. Currently, we do not have any function of the Mog Station that can alter character data from another account. The Mog Station only works within your account, and it isn't unreasonable to expect that it can't access another account's data.

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Originally Posted by lynyan

I HIGHLY doubt this was intentional, cool your jets friend.

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Fair enough. I'm just explaining it further. xD

Come on... People... IT IS THE PLAYERS WHO DECIDE THIS, YOU SURE?....

If it shouldn't be there that possibility, players wouldn't decide it.... Think of it as if it would be a exploit in the game, that SE allows players to use, but, HEY! It is players decission to use that exploit, it's not like SE's fault for let that exploit exist!

Example of how absurd it is to say that it is player's fault:

Player: "Hey, I just found that if I click in one NPC of mor dhona and select option 'Give me my money' I obtain 5m gil, is this against the ToS?"
GM: "It's not"
Player: "Oh, cool! Going to spend some!"
Some people of this forum: "Hey! But it is the player's fault for accepting that gil! It's optional, nobody forces you to take it"

But well, let's wait for some developer answer and know if it was really an oversight of the team as you say, or all this P2W festival was just their tease.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Fair enough. I'm just explaining it further. xD

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ah i was responding to hyunckel, not you! ;w;

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

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holy shit calm down

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

Come on... People... IT IS THE PLAYERS WHO DECIDE THIS, YOU SURE?

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Like I said, it was an oversight by the developers. The cash shop only gives you the item. What you do with the item is by no means under control by the developers nor the cash shop. This was all created by the players themselves. It's absurd to blame Square Enix only, as part of the reason this is happening was because of something they did not predict; The players selling the Bracelets for gil. You can't deny that the players aren't one of the contributing factors, because they are in a sense.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Like I said, it was an oversight by the developers. The cash shop only gives you the item. What you do with the item is by no means under control by the developers nor the cash shop. This was all created by the players themselves. It's absurd to blame Square Enix only, as part of the reason this is happening was because of something they did not predict; The players selling the Bracelets for gil. You can't deny that the players aren't one of the contributing factors, because they are in a sense.

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You can't honestly believe that SE wouldn't know that people would sell these for Gil when people have been selling clears since launch.

SE should just allows us to vote on the Lodestone and sort this crap out once and for all.

Great, can we get the other cash shop items on the market board now please. I'd rather the regular subscription give you at least a theoretical chance to get everything the game has to offer rather than avoid some players speeding up a portion of their relic or getting carried through end-game content at all costs.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

You can't honestly believe that SE wouldn't know that people would sell these for Gil when people have been selling clears since launch.

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Nor can you say that they would know people would sell these for Gil. According to this response, they only mentioned about trading the Bracelet. Take note that they did not mention anything about selling it for Gil. This means that they may have expected people to trade it for the reasons I've already stated, but may not have expected people to willingly sell it and buy it.

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

But well, let's wait for some developer answer and know if it was really an oversight of the team as you say, or all this P2W festival was just their tease.

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There was a response, but it isn't an official developer response. Take note that they made no mention about gil.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Nor can you say that they would know people would sell these for Gil. According to this response, they only mentioned about trading the Bracelet. Take note that they did not mention anything about selling it for Gil. This means that they may have expected people to trade it for the reasons I've already stated, but may not have expected people to willingly sell it and buy it.

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You do know that they couldn't just blindly stumble into this situation. Examples of what players do with tradable cash shop items have been around longer then this game in any incarnation.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

There was a response, but it isn't an official developer response. Take note that they made no mention about gil.

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Let's wait for an official response, some developer, and to see what are they going to do at this, reveal their claws and maintain this hilarious situation and also make you know that you were wrong and SE really planned this? Or for the opposite say sorry about all this happened and that it was not their intention?... I guess which will be the anwser...

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Nor can you say that they would know people would sell these for Gil. According to this response, they only mentioned about trading the Bracelet. Take note that they did not mention anything about selling it for Gil. This means that they may have expected people to trade it for the reasons I've already stated, but may not have expected people to willingly sell it and buy it.



There was a response, but it isn't an official developer response. Take note that they made no mention about gil.

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Come on... They're game designers... It's part (no, it's the essence) of their job to predict what players will do with the content they create and how they will try to abuse it.
Why? Because they try to maintain balance with patches and I can't think they didn't predict what we see here... It's a way for them to sell extra Bracelets to players who try to abuse the game.

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Originally Posted by Taliph

You do know that they couldn't just blindly stumble into this situation. Examples of what players do with tradable cash shop items have been around longer then this game in any incarnation.

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Hence why I used "may", and "possibly" in my posts. I'm not saying that they did intend for it, but I'm saying that it's likely that they didn't prepare for it.

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Originally Posted by Mattiux

This is the definition of pay to win.
With my retainers i earn my dyes, i have to try to get it with low rng and i have to pay my ventures with grand company seals earned changing item rolled in dungeons or with fate grinding.

In that way i can simply pay to get it. i.e: Pay to win.

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You can't sell any of the metallic dye

Scenario proved invalid, thread can be closed.

Yeah... The cash shop didn't really bother me until this popped up. I've seen it in other MMO and it really didn't have a huge effect of them overall from a gameplay and meta perspective. It kinda blows, though; I really wish they hadn't done it - the game is no longer self-contained in its own world.

They should have just made it so that there was a shared turn-in window for the 2 bracelets for the quest, with either player putting in anywhere from 0-2 bracelets for a combined total of 2.

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

You can't sell any of the metallic dye

Scenario proved invalid, thread can be closed.

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errr...yes you can?
Player A trades player B a non-bound item.
Player B dyes it with the dye he bought from the CS.
Player A gives X ammount of gil to player B.
Player B trades back the non-bound dyed item to player A.

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Originally Posted by Cristal

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If you read what I've said, I only proposed that they likely did not predict that players would sell them for gil.

Still, we haven't considered this topic from every angle. What we're discussing is the pay-to-win aspect of people selling these Bracelets. Do they benefit the people who sell and buy them? Yes, from what I can see, both benefit from this. Players have previously complained that they would prefer to buy this using gil instead of buying it because they can't or don't want to. Isn't this a good alternative? People who can't afford to buy it directly can pay for it with gil.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

If you read what I've said, I only proposed that they likely did not predict that players would sell them for gil. Still, you haven't considered this topic from every angle. What we're discussing is the pay-to-win aspect of people selling these Bracelets. Do they benefit the people who sell and buy them? Yes, from what I can see, both benefit from this. Players have previously complained that they would prefer to buy this using gil instead of buying it because they can't or don't want to. Isn't this a good alternative? People who can't afford to buy it directly can pay for it with gil.

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And then it affects the whole server economy. With easy gils, players won't think before buying overpriced items and then, players that don't get easy gils will have to farm more to buy highly demanded items.
No it's not a good alternative.

(And no, you will never make me think they didn't see this. If an item is trade-able, it can be sold for gils. They can feign ignorance all they want but it's impossible to not predict this. Ever. period.)

So what the point of having gil in this game then if your not allowed to purchase anything without Gil being labeled know as p2w for using it, should it be only for aesthetic purpose only know in this game is the auction house now p2w? If SE did predicted every out come of how a player could/would abuse gil, rmt, and cash shop items, the rules and lockout they implement later would overly extreme with a healthy dose of borderline paranoid schizophrenia on their part.

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Originally Posted by Squa11_Leonhart

You can't sell any of the metallic dye

Scenario proved invalid, thread can be closed.

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Actually you can.
Just trade the item(not bound) you want to dye to the seller.
The seller will dye it for you and trade it back for gil.

The point still stands. Your poor arguments not.

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Originally Posted by Cristal

(And no, you will never make me think they didn't see this. If an item is trade-able, it can be sell for gils. They can feign ignorance all they want but it's impossible to not predict this. Ever. period.)

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I'm not asking you to change your opinion. Please read what I said carefully. Just because they made it tradeable, doesn't mean that they intended to destroy the server economies. They may have intended it to be tradeable for gifting purposes. Who knows? We don't. And conjecture like what you are saying will get this topic locked and deleted. Furthermore, it isn't impossible to not predict this as well. Human error is still a possible suspect. You can't ignore the possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Cristal

And then it affects the whole server economy. With easy gils, players won't think before buying overpriced items and then, players that don't get easy gils will have to farm more to buy highly demanded items.
No it's not a good alternative.

(And no, you will never make me think they didn't see this. If an item is trade-able, it can be sold for gils. They can feign ignorance all they want but it's impossible to not predict this. Ever. period.)

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It's not "easy gils".
The gils don't magically appear from nowhere. They just go from a Player A to a Player B in exchange of a service (which is to make Player A able to have an Eternal Bond ceremony without using his/her credit card... in short terms: something completly ok. Same goes for the dyes).

In absolutly no way the global economy of the server is affected. The overall amount of gils within the playerbase remains exactly the same.

Plus, this way of getting gils completly falls under the demand/offer competitive market, like everything else tradable in this game. In a few days/weeks, the market will drastically slow down and the prices will hit their lowest point. Like they always did for anything new.

So, in short terms, this doesn't affect the global economy at all, and is not an infinite magical source of making gils.

The cash shop items won't sell if no one can afford them, buying cash shop items to sell for gil doesn't make more gil it only moves existing gil around.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

I'm not asking you to change your opinion. Please read what I said carefully. Just because they made it tradeable, doesn't mean that they intended to destroy the server economies. They may have intended it to be tradeable for gifting purposes. Who knows? We don't. And conjecture like what you are saying will get this topic locked and deleted. Furthermore, it isn't impossible to not predict this as well. Human error is still a possible suspect. You can't ignore the possibilities.

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Yeah, they wanted to introduce a gift option (wedding proposal) but you can't release an item like that, trade-able with no control and say after "oops, sorry about that. We didn't intend to do that."

And it's not like a speedrun path, glitched ai or something like that. It's a really, really basic problem that everyone can see coming but you're right, "Human error is still a possible suspect".

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Originally Posted by Fyce

It's not "easy gils".
The gils don't magically appear from nowhere. They just go from a Player A to a Player B in exchange of a service (which is to make Player A able to have an Eternal Bond ceremony without using his/her credit card... in short terms: something completly ok. Same goes for the dyes).

In absolutly no way the global economy of the server is affected. The overall amount of gils within the playerbase remains exactly the same.

Plus, this way of getting gils completly falls under the demand/offer competitive market, like everything else tradable in this game. In a few days/weeks, the market will drastically slow down and the prices will hit their lowest point. Like they always did for anything new.

So, in short terms, this doesn't affect the global economy at all, and is not an infinite magical source of making gils.

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It's easy gils for Player B and not for Player A if he didn't sell bracelets too. Gil value will be different between A and B. B will think: "I just have to sell one bracelet for X millions." / A will think: "I have to spiritbond / craft / shard farm / whatever Y for Z amount of time."

P2W is not you can pay to win, it is you have to pay to win.
Why would you care if some guy cheats his way to High End contents ?
He already did in FFXI or others games without cash shop by buying characters and virtual money.

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Originally Posted by Cristal

It's easy gils for Player B and not for Player A if he didn't sell bracelets too. Gil value will be different between A and B. B will think: "I just have to sold one bracelet for X millions." / A will think: "I have to spiritbond / craft / shard farm / whatever Y for Z amount of time."

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/comfort
You can buy the bracelet too, only keep your gils under the mattress and you would buy one

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Originally Posted by XNihili

P2W is not you can pay to win, it is you have to pay to win.
Why would you care if some guys cheat his way to High End contents ?
He already did in FFXI or others games without cash shop by buying characters and virtual money.

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And "NO PAY TO WIN" is "you don't have to pay to win (but you can)" or "you cannot pay to win (even if you wanted)"?

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Originally Posted by rappa

/comfort
You can buy the bracelet too, only keep your gils under the mattress and you would buy one

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I don't care about the bracelet at all. I care about its implications on server economy (and game's future too but that's another topic...)

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Originally Posted by Cristal

And "NO PAY TO WIN" is "you don't have to pay to win (but you can)" or "you cannot pay to win (even if you wanted)"?

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Depends if it's NO(Pay to Win) or (No Pay) to Win ;)

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Originally Posted by Cristal

It's easy gils for Player B and not for Player A if he didn't sell bracelets too. Gil value will be different between A and B. B will think: "I just have to sold one bracelet for X millions." / A will think: "I have to spiritbond / craft / shard farm / whatever Y for Z amount of time."

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By that statement, you assume that Player B have an infinite amount of real money and never had to work for it.
You are also assuming that Player B will be able to sell an infinite amount of these item with no limit in time.

Both of these are false.

Besides, you have absolutly nothing to say about the choice for Player A to use his/her "hard earned gils" to buy access to the Eternal Bond ceremony instead of using real money.
The value of gils for Player A is his/her own and his/her own only. Nobody here have the right to tell someone how to use the time that person spend on getting gils.

So, again, no, the global economy won't be affected at all.

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Originally Posted by Cristal

And "NO PAY TO WIN" is "you don't have to pay to win (but you can)" or "you cannot pay to win (even if you wanted)"?

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That first one is by definition, pay-to-win, and a lot of people will agree. xD

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Originally Posted by Fyce

So, again, no, the global economy won't be affected at all.

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I agree with that, but this still is a way to pay for a boost. in that case a boost of gils that lead to a boost of gear.
Again i ask to Answer to my question:

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I can deal with some optional item in cash shop. Minion,mount etc. but you HAVE TO make it untradable. If you want it just for fun and vanity why complain if they don't allow you to earn in game benefits (like gil) ?

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Originally Posted by Cristal

I don't care about the bracelet at all. I care about its implications on server economy (and game's future too but that's another topic...)

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Are you sure? Because each patch notes the mb was dead and rezz again :D

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Originally Posted by Mattiux

I agree with that, but this still is a way to pay for a boost. in that case a boost of gils that lead to a boost of gear.
Again i ask to Answer to my question:

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That's the point.
The fact is: global economy won't be affected at all.
The real subject is: is it okay for someone to be able to get the gils of someone else in exchange of a real money service?

That said, the answers to the real question can't be considered as facts. They'll just be mere opinions of people ok or not ok with it.

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[SUBJECTIVITY]

I'll give mine as an example:
I think that since FFXIV is not a competitive game, It's not very important if a single individual suddenly has access to something he/she wouldn't have normally. Would it be some 110HQ gear or a house or whatever gils can buy.

This game only has two competitive aspects: PvP, for which gils are worthless, and "First Time HL raid". For the latter, I'm pretty sure that the amount of gils within these hardcore gamers pocket is irrelevant.

So, in short terms, someone who suddenly has access to a lot of (-someone else-) gils, won't affect my playstyle at all. That person is just spoiling his/her own experience with the game, and I don't really care if that person is willingly doing so.
Plus, like I said, this is very much a temporary thing and the market for Eternal Bond plans will die quite rapidly.

[/SUBJECTIVITY]

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Yep, that's pretty much my own opinion. I don't really care.

But again, that's just a mere subjective opinion, and I understand that someone can be frustrated to see another player getting something expensive without much effort (if you consider that getting real money doesn't require "much effort") when they had to spend hours farming or whatever to get the same thing.
But heh, the frustration someone might have is also completly subjective.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The real subject is: is it okay for someone to be able to get the gils of someone else in exchange of a real money service?

That said, the answers to the real question can't be considered as facts. They'll just be mere opinions of people ok or not ok with it.

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"Our Definition of RMT: RMT is defined as the selling and buying of virtual assets for real-world money. Virtual assets can include, but is not limited to: Accounts, Characters, In-game Currency (Gil), In-game Service, In-game item." - from the Square-Enix support site

Party Finder entry: "WTS Gold/Plat bracelets for 20m"
Simplified: "WTS $10/$20 bracelets for 20m"

I'm sorry, but it looks like all the information needed is there. Is this really still able to be considered opinion at this point?