Isn`t just vanity. Is 2 diferent experiences and thats why is bad.

the thing about eternal bond; regardless of if you pay real money or not, you can do it. what people are angry about is that they get nothing free besides the base items for the bond. this brings up a question tho. in what world do you get something for free for getting married?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

the thing about eternal bond; regardless of if you pay real money or not, you can do it. what people are angry about is that they get nothing free besides the base items for the bond. this brings up a question tho. in what world do you get something for free for getting married?

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In what world can you not pay for things with cash earned in that very same world?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

the thing about eternal bond; regardless of if you pay real money or not, you can do it. what people are angry about is that they get nothing free besides the base items for the bond. this brings up a question tho. in what world do you get something for free for getting married?

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You don't get anything for free. PERIOD. We all pay monthly for this game. That's the point. Our monthly fees don't entitle us to the full experience, apparently. And I suspect that will be the growing trend.

I've seen people wonder if this game will ever go F2P. No, it won't. They'll just apply the F2P model ON TOP OF the subscription fees. Best of both worlds for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akuryu

You don't get anything for free. PERIOD. We all pay monthly for this game. That's the point. Our monthly fees don't entitle us to the full experience, apparently. And I suspect that will be the growing trend.

I've seen people wonder if this game will ever go F2P. No, it won't. They'll just apply the F2P model ON TOP OF the subscription fees. Best of both worlds for them.

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thats my point. and people are mad about that. not me tho.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

thats my point. and people are mad about that. not me tho.

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I think you missed Akuryu's point entirely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akuryu

You don't get anything for free. PERIOD. We all pay monthly for this game. That's the point. Our monthly fees don't entitle us to the full experience, apparently. And I suspect that will be the growing trend.

I've seen people wonder if this game will ever go F2P. No, it won't. They'll just apply the F2P model ON TOP OF the subscription fees. Best of both worlds for them.

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That's just horrifying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riepah

I think you missed Akuryu's point entirely.

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not really. im indifferent to some of the things that are being added to cash shop. i think the point you think i didnt get was the whole sub not getting us the whole experience. it doesnt.

...pssshh....nothin personnel kid....

Anyway, this divide in experiences is even more clear in ARR especially due to the way its endgame content is structured, which leans heavily towards the vanity side.

Major raid content: only 4 Coil turns every 6 months, with a weekly lockout on the entire raid itself, lockout removed 2 patches later. Drops sets of most recent and most relevant item level gear.

Secondary raid content: 1 raid that's part of FF3 CT saga with a weekly loot lockout, lockout removed a patch later. Drops sets of gear 10 item levels below Coil and tome gear, drops gear enhancing items some in between patches later.
Major boss fight content: 1 featured primal fight of the patch, drops weapons and sometimes specific accessories of varying item levels below Coil and tome gear.
Dungeon content: 1 new dungeon, 2 dungeons using existing assets from the previous iterations of them. Only purpose is farming tomes, vanity gear, gear to turn in for GC seals or desynth, mats to craft more vanity and vanity minions.
Weapon forging content: ever evolving relic quest.
PvP content: Frontlines, Wolves' Den, provide gear of varying item levels below Coil and tome gear and the fun of PvP.

Side content: Chocobo training, Gardening, Housing, Crafting, Gathering, Hunts, maps, minions, mounts, Beastmen dailies, retainer ventures, Hildibrand quest and trials, challenge log, sightseeing log, the long and increasing list of old and outdated endgame content like dungeons, trials, CT/ST, old Coil turns etc. All provide mostly vanity and very little in terms of progression.

While DoH/DoLs might be full fledged classes, their progression is almost entirely vanity oriented. Hunts has a small exception amongst its mostly vanity oriented rewards due to Alexandrites and the relic quest, and the gear enhancing items being offered in an accessible way through them, until other even more accessible venues for these items open up. On the dailies side Ixalis are also an exception and that's only because they were introduced halfway through the 2.3 patches instead of at the patch start like all previous dailies, and also because 2.4 doesn't have a featured beastmen tribe because their current stories ended with the Ixali, so they had to find a way to still make them relevant.

So not only is there the existing and admittedly typical divide between hardcore and casual content, there's now a divide between that divide, with the bigger vanity side which constitutes a substantial part of this game taking the bigger hit monetization wise. How long until the hardcore side/PvE-PvP side takes a hit and gets divided and monetized upon too, despite the promises that it'll never happen or at least "no P2W"? The same sort of promises made about having CT at launch, housing prices, etc.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

not really. im indifferent to some of the things that are being added to cash shop. i think the point you think i didnt get was the whole sub not getting us the whole experience. it doesnt.

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I'm pretty sure that Akuryu's point was, that the post, your post, which they quoted, made no sense. You claimed that people were mad because they get nothing for "free besides the base items for the bond."
Said "base items for the bond" already aren't even free, though, as there's a monthly free required to even play this game at all. So, no, people aren't mad because they aren't getting stuff for free - they're mad because they're expected to pay twice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riepah

I'm pretty sure that Akuryu's point was, that the post, your post, which they quoted, made no sense. You claimed that people were mad because they get nothing for "free besides the base items for the bond."
Said "base items for the bond" already aren't even free, though, as there's a monthly free required to even play this game at all. So, no, people aren't mad because they aren't getting stuff for free - they're mad because they're expected to pay twice.

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ok, i see what you mean. i was taking out the sub fee because that is something people already expect to pay.

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Originally Posted by Senliten

For all we know, we could be redirected to the lil EB website SE is making and have a pick and choose sorta thing, but nah, lets all just go on ahead and play the gloom and doom of FFXIV card.

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That's all ppl wanna do it seems idc my self how SE dose this but i like the cash shop idea

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

If this was happening to Raids it would be the same.

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If this was happening to Raids we were bait & switch - Raids drive progression in this game to an extent. Making all raids cash shop items in a P2P game is definitely going down shady waters and would never happen unless it's a Freemium or F2P/B2P game.

Actual game content vs a Wedding that largely does nothing is on two different levels.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Actual game content vs a Wedding that largely does nothing is on two different levels.

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No, because that is "actual game content" just the same. Just because it's content you don't personally care about doesn't mean it isn't content.

EDIT:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

So in your words:

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What I said in my words is written in my post, clear as crystal - how you came to your strange conclusion of what you think my words were is beyond me.

You said "Actual game content vs a Wedding that largely does nothing" -- but that wedding IS actual game content. Vanity is content, fluff is content, minions and mounts are content. Not only raids and item level matter in games.
Why ask if the game would survive with "only the wedding system in it"? That is quite a silly question. Counter question: Would the game survive with only raids, if you remove all vanity and fluff from the equation? Would people raid if every gear set looked the same?

I should have leveled via wedding system, you say. That's cute - do you mean to imply, then, that anything you can't level with isn't content? Last I checked, you can't level via raiding. You also can't level via PvP.

I'm not sure what you mean by "asumption that someone "doesn't care about"", that seems like an incomplete sentence. In any case, the Eternal Bonding system will still be relevant in a year. Will the next tier of Crystal tower matter in a year, or coil, when we're long level 60?

On the slides it actually said three versions.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

No, because that is "actual game content" just the same. Just because it's content you don't personally care about doesn't mean it isn't content.

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So in your words:

Hundreds of thousands (or the 2 million as SE says) of people signed up to play XIV strictly for a wedding system? Tell me: Would this game survive with only the wedding system in it? Wedding is a system that yoshida even said they didn't fully think about some features such as couple skills (like almost every other MMO has), so it's not main content in the game. Raids actually progress your character. Same with doing content like Primals and ST/CT - Why did you level to 50? You should have stayed at level 1 and leveled via wedding system.

You also made the asumption that someone "doesn't care about" - EB doesn't do much for the game compared to the next introduction of end-game content and Crystal Tower. Or are we to believe that's incorrect?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

So in your words:

Hundreds of thousands (or the 2 million as SE says) of people signed up to play XIV strictly for a wedding system? Tell me: Would this game survive with only the wedding system in it? Wedding is a system that yoshida even said they didn't fully think about some features such as couple skills (like almost every other MMO has), so it's not main content in the game. Raids actually progress your character. Same with doing content like Primals and ST/CT - Why did you level to 50? You should have stayed at level 1 and leveled via wedding system.

You also made the asumption that someone "doesn't care about" - EB doesn't do much for the game compared to the next introduction of end-game content and Crystal Tower. Or are we to believe that's incorrect?

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To back up this comment further (taken from one of the many other bloody threads about this topic):

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Originally Posted by Xairos

At any point in this game did you battle, level up, collect gear and weapons? Because if you boil this game's concept down, The language that this game uses for "Power" is gear stats and weapon stats and character level. So unless you logged in and sat in the starter zone saying "I dont want to fight, I just want to collect", you have and are playing this game and participating in the "Win" condition of this game.

It is fallacious and dishonest to claim that the new "Win" condition of this game is to collect minions and mounts and pass that off on the forums as a perceived form of "Power".

Even if you convince yourself that your form of "Power" is collecting minions and mounts and clothing to jazz yourself up, you can not re-write the code of this game's definition of "Power". SE is not selling power.

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Mainly to say that SE will never sell anything related to raid content (ie. gear, removing weekly lockouts) since it impacts gameplay, and the "Win" condition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Meshico

One thing from this whole thing, and then I'll be on topic. Yoshida-san, and team. Showed a Lalafell on top of Slephnir in a picture quite some time ago, someone with more time than me can surely find it, so the Slephnire "mount" was in the game in some shape or form. People even asked about it and said could we have that? I am paraphrasing here "It's just a developer having fun, we probably should not have shown that" or something to that effect.

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This one?

People are acting as though everyone is outraged over the cash shop and premium features. Fact of the matter is people most often only comment on something if they have something negative to say. It doesn't matter how much positive stuff happens in this game, you don't often see it praised on these forums (or anywhere for that matter). People just shut up and enjoy the content.

Most people I know either don't care or support these features. Only the ones who have a chronic case of complaining about everything imaginable have something negative to say about it. I can see why some people are upset about it, but in reality it's a very trivial matter. They said there won't be any pay to win and what they are doing is no different from what nearly all of their competition is already doing.

If you don't like it, don't use it. Your only option.

Edit: Additionally, people are blowing this entirely out of the water in regard to the concept of "double-dipping". You're paying what, $12 a month or so to play a game? Wow, really looks like you're busting your bank accounts for that one. If you wanted even a fraction of the vanity content this game has in F2P games you can expect to spend over $100 a month on some other games. What's an additional $20 every few months (if that) to support a developer for a game you enjoy a lot? Surely you can put aside a couple of McDonalds meals to do that. You might even get a bit healthier! Stop complaining.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Actual game content vs a Wedding that largely does nothing is on two different levels.

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You know that beating T13 actually 'does nothing' too right? Your life isn't somehow better because you can claim 'I beat T13' Sure, you might feel personal accomplishment, and your character might get some new shiny's but the SAME can be said of accomplishing anything else in this game, another game, or really anything else you could do with your free time. Furthermore, the same sense of accomplishment/growth you gain from something like raiding, others in this game might get from other activities, such as growing and building a successful FC w/ a house....or leveling all their classes to 50 and being a master gatherer/crafter...or roleplaying...or really anything. And it IS a MMORPG...so having some folk who their sole focus in the game, and enjoyment is based on Roleplaying is not only abnormal....but part of the initial intention behind these types of games. I mean, isn't the great-granddaddy of most of these types of games basically Dungeons and Dragons...that was all roleplay/imagination. Sure, you can skip the roleplay aspect , and many of us do, but it doesn't make it 'lesser' because many overlook it....by that logic, less focus should be on endgame/coil because so few actually participate in it/care to. (Seriously, it'd be interesting to see the stats on how many players consider themselves Roleplayers/enjoy roleplaying vs. How many even currently have access to Final coil...I suspect, more roleplay).

So back to the 'just because it's not important to you' thing.

But really, all that can be shown for your time spent in this game is maybe some personal relaxation and sense of accomplishment....nothing tangible actually ever happens...ever. Nothing that could actually carry over to your real life.

Now really, is it a big deal that you have to purchase the 'Premium' Wedding package?

Well...maybe; maybe not.
First, it depends on the cost.
Then, it depends on what that extra money actually gets you/what opting out of it doesn't get you.
Then it also depend on how long you'd have to wait in order to use the service once you purchase it. Currently, if you buy something of the Mog Station, you actually can use it right away...but it sounds like Bonding Ceremonies are likely going to need to be scheduled...days, if not months in advance. This leads down a tricky path of 'what happens if...' problems... Like what if I buy the Gold Plan, but my wedding can only happen 6 months later and my partner is by that point stationed oversea's w/o access to the game. (this will happen to someone...I can already hear these posts).

And then there's the 'what exactly does our Sub entitle us to?'/Why is x something considered 'extra' and sold on the cash shop but not 'y'
I'm not necessarily disagreeing that some of the items supposedly offered in the 'Gold' package shouldn't cost more....as player bonding shouldn't only happen because someone wants a cool mount. But why sell it as part of the bonding at all...why not just sell the darn mount for people to purchase, why tie it to the bonding? I mean, if we're 100% honest about things, there are likely folk who'd happily slap down the money for this mount who DON'T want to be bonded...so SE would actually stand to make more money off of it, and likely angered less people (because patch 2.4 at least got most of the anger over selling mounts/minions out of the way).

The clothing options, they probably should have been somehow a part of the game...either as a rare craft/map drop...or even you can pay a lot of in-game gil for them if you so desire (SE keeps saying we need gil sinks).

Lastly, I think why some people are up in arms is because, this is borderline 'selling content'. As it is sounding like, those who purchase a wedding package also gain more customization options outside of dresses/mounts and a minion. And to some, sure, this happening for a virtual wedding isn't a real big deal, but if it becomes more normal...it could be.

Like what if they started selling the hildibrand questlines?
Or what if they started selling access to the Savage versions of coil?

Neither would be 'pay to win'...they can control the actual 'pay to win' stuff with drops by making sure that the drops from this content are the same/only vanity (because again, it sounds like your side thinks 'vanity is okay' to sell)

But since, Hildibrand technically only drops what a minion? and Savage Coil mode currently drops the exact same stuff normal mode does, it wouldn't be a far stretch, if this whole 'sales of Gold Plans' goes well for SE to consider other types of 'Premium Side content' to market in such a manner....or for them to include a basic version in game...but for the real experience, give us more money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Like what if they started selling the hildibrand questlines?
Or what if they started selling access to the Savage versions of coil?

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What if? What if? What if?

You could "what if" anything. Here's what's happening now: None of that. What's happening now is they are offering premium vanity content which does not affect access to content whatsoever. All of these strawmen ripostes I keep seeing are extreme what if scenarios if SE decided to block access to content and make such stuff premium. Okay, if they did that you can complain about that. But they're not doing that and it is very unlikely they will be doing that. So stop bringing up such crazy arguments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rjain

Edit: Additionally, people are blowing this entirely out of the water in regard to the concept of "double-dipping". You're paying what, $12 a month or so to play a game? Wow, really looks like you're busting your bank accounts for that one. If you wanted even a fraction of the vanity content this game has in F2P games you can expect to spend over $100 a month on some other games. What's an additional $20 every few months (if that) to support a developer for a game you enjoy a lot? Surely you can put aside a couple of McDonalds meals to do that. You might even get a bit healthier! Stop complaining.

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Yeah, I have the money.

But lets see, 12ish dollars a month for the sub...just from me=$144 a year.
In addition to that, my husband also plays (and since we're talking player bonding...and bonding takes 2, this is true of ANYONE consuming this specific content), so there's another 144 a year.... so now we're up to $288 a year, just to sub to the game.
Maybe, that's all we're willing to pay...when that same money could also be invested in other things...such as a long weekend camping trip, or 5 console games, or my Child's entire haul from Santa etc.

So yes, when you look at it as a monthly thing, it's not so bad....but when you consider that you pay every month...and we don't get new content every month this game starts to get pricy...quick. Furthermore, we're just one household....multiply out the 144/year x the amount of people playing and it doesn't take a genius to realize they are making enough to more than cover the development and staffing costs of this game.

But, here's the other thing to consider.

We all pay roughly $12 a month in subs. So buying lets say, the Odin mount...just a mount=2 months of game subs. Really? A Mount? I could be 1/2 way to buying a new console game for that....or take my child to the museum.

Now obviously, I didn't buy the mount. Because I think it's about 22 dollars overpriced for a pretend pixelated pony. And if others want to buy it...well, they can waste their money how ever they want.

But a pony isn't content.
A minion isn't content.

A wedding ceremony, albeit an 'upgraded package' starts being 'buying content'
And what's more disturbing, is if it's successful will it open the door to more content being treated in this manner?
Because first it was account services (fine), then a couple extra mounts/minions (little less fine but still /meh), now 'upgraded content package' (which if all it is is a mount+minion+ dress still /meh)

More on point: If a simple mount was 24 dollars, then a Mount+Minion+clothing (even if that's all the 'gold package' is), is likely closer to 40-50 dollars....that's the likely cost of the expansion.

...but SE also has a history of telling us one thing....and then drastically changing the plan. So no one trusts them to be upfront with everything.

When they sold the Thancred minion on the cash shop, everyone knew that was the only thing people were getting. And no one expects that 6 months from now, those that bought Thancred will get a special teleport or something. But the marriage thing is more vague. Since it has already been stated that some additional perks are being planned for Player Bonding...it is reasonable to question 'will those perks be in the 'standard' plan or only upgraded versions' If I only do the standard...and if those options are later added only to the 'cash shop' versions, can I upgrade if I desire or am I stuck?


Basically, this time around, they aren't selling something as cut and dry as a minion/mount or player service such as a world transfer. As 'Player Bonding' is actual playable content...there are questions as to how this all actually will play out/implications down the road if additional perks/content is added to this content etc. Also, everything else sold on the Mog Station up until this point was as simple as: buy it>log in>check Mog Mail> use item. This package, by its very nature is more complicated in that. Do both players have to buy it or one? Do you have to tell SE whom you're sharing it with? Do you need their acct info to do so? How long do I have to wait for my package/ceremony if I pay? What happens if we decide not to go through with the ceremony...do we keep the items? If I have multiple characters on my account do the items apply to all my characters? (as have some Mog Purchases in the past), or do I have to pick a specific one?

It's just a much more complicated mess than 'Here is a cute Thancred, for 3 dollars you can have him' And typically, the more complicated something is...the more likely SE is to overlook key details or screw it up. Yet another reason, many simply don't trust them.

The only thing that baffles me about payable in game content in addition to a subscription fee is why some people think it's ok to pay extra for it, and actually WANT to. Why don't you want to get the most possible for your money? Isn't what you work hard for every day worth anything to you, or is it just http://33.media.tumblr.com/878b87347...5drao1_400.gif?

The payable marriage option topic has indeed been beaten to death in this forum. I think it's ridiculous to give us watered down content in an attempt to extract yet more money from us each month because they want to prey on the people who enjoy the social aspects of this game, not just raiding. I'll see how far they decide to go with it and if its a continuing trend I'll unsubscribe. Money is the only thing they understand. If they enjoy killing off the people who enjoy the social aspects of this game it'll leave a much leaner base to maintain their subs, and good luck with that.

They've just gone too far in my book.

My subscription ends in 9 days and I will NOT be renewing.

People keep saying they're ok with cash shop as long as it's not pay to win. Define 'win'. Winning in an MMO is different for every player. Winning to me would have been collecting all of the vanity gear, making furnishings for a house so I could constantly rearrange it, getting married and having a 2 person mount for me and my sweetie. So for me, this is already 'pay to win'. And I'm done.

The never-ending gear treadmill, the personal housing farce, the paid retainers to begin with and now, marriage.

Nope. Nope.

"They only pay attention to subscriber numbers" Ok
"If you don't like it, unsubscribe." Ok.

Unsubscribing, see ya.

P.S. For those of you who are totally in favor of a cash shop, do me a favor? At the end of a year, total up the money you've spent on this cash shop and take at least a full minute to think about whether or not it's really been worth it.....

@OP I hit like on your comments to start this thread and I agree with what you have said. I support this thread.

how many threads are you going to create on this topic? Quit flooding the forums with this stuff because you have said your peace more than 10 times already. Enough is enough.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

Winning in an MMO is different for every player.

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False. Every game, be it a board game, a video game or an MMO, is designed with specific, set conditions for 'winning.' You can argue "but this is winning for ME" all you want, but that doesn't make it true. Heck, you could say that 'winning' for you in chess is going around the chessboard in a certain pattern. The vast majority of people who play chess (and those who make the rules for the game) aren't going to agree with you.

In FFXIV's case, 'winning' has a very clear definition: progression in the story. Note how many aspects of the game are gated behind story content and how you can't even access them until you have reached certain parts of the story. You can't arbitrarily change the definition of 'winning' that was decided by the game's creators when it was first developed because that isn't how YOU play the game.

They have kept their word: there is no P2W content in the cash shop.

As for whether or not it's been worth it for me... let's see. I've spent $5 on a ghost costume so far. That's less than most drinks from Starbucks, and you only get to enjoy those for 15-20 minutes at most. I can play around with the ghost costume as much as I want whenever I want. Seems like a pretty good value to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

They've just gone too far in my book.

My subscription ends in 9 days and I will NOT be renewing.

Unsubscribing, see ya.

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What will we do without you? :( ..... No one will miss you.

Btw not for or against the shop. I'm also not dramatic enough to leave because of it, I assume you're 12 years old to be acting like such a baby. See ya

It's like I just read a typical bad Sonic edgy fanfic condensed into a single two line post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

Unsubscribing, see ya.

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Most likely will follow the same path, except I have about 3 more months left, probably won't return until a ways into the expansion. Seeing the direction the game is going towards I wouldn't be surprised if it goes F2P a couple of months after the expansion launches, so win/win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

<o>

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I must disagree. Almost everything in an MMO can be considered a challenge or endeavor and in that meaning, a victory to it, or defeat. Beating Ifrit means you won, perhaps getting married means you won, perhaps collecting every mount means you win, collecting every minion is its own victory, unlocking all the achievements in one category could be seen as a victory as well. Clearing the coil of Bahamut, a win. Clearing all of Crystal tower, a win. Clearing the main story, also a win. There are many wins in an MMO, as each victory is its own.

Winning by definition just means you claim victory, if your challenge is to get all the mounts, by doing so you are victorious and win. An MMO doesn't really follow the "Theres a beginning and end" that normal games follow, they're designed to continue and be played for the forseable future, if you want to argue that completing the storyline is "Winnig" the game, or argue beating coil is "winning the game", I'll argue those are tangible goals and indeed completing those is a victory and a win, but they are not the only ones.

And for the final nail so to speak, the most common definition of "Win".

Quote:

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acquire or secure as a result of a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavor.

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I would consider gathering all Mounts or Minions something you can secure after an endeavor, or the act and challenge of collecting them all, an endeavor. and I'd definitely consider marraige an endeavor. What a person considers the end result of these things is up to the individual, for instance... after marriage some might find divorce to be the victory, look before you leap...

P.S does this mean i think the cash shop, as it stands now, is Pay to Win in the way its commonly considered? No, most people define pay to win as simply paying to gain an advantage over other players. However, I must consider that for a player whos goal is to obtain all vanity or mount/minions, the cash shop would provide an advantage over them.... But I do not believe winning is so narrow as you would imply. That is my only real debate on this post. Victory has many conditions and is as vague as fun.

I think everyone is overreacting over this whole Eternal Bond system. We have very little information to go on from about the actual system and how it plays out. For all we know, the Gold Plan would just give you the mount and minions through the Mog Mail! It's fairly early to assume that both plans would be significantly different from each other, and it is also too early to assume that it won't. However, going through the information we do have, it may be safe to assume that the giant cake and the details on the clothes themselves are different between plans. There is also a good chance that the mount and minion are also possible gifts for going with the gold plan, but again, way too early to assume.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

Snip

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And now here's my problem with this mentality:

Let's say someone wants to eat every single burger in the world as that's their life's enjoyment, do you think they somehow have the right to complain if in order to do that, they have to buy plane, bus tickets and boat rides to every single burger location in the world? Or if they are a sports car enthusiast and they want to take a picture of every single car, from extremely common to undeniably rare, they have the right to complain that they would need to pay for the best picture camera and the expenses to be able to find these cars?

That's the issue that I have with people who complain about the minions, mounts and other vanity item collectors: They did not complain when they had to buy Squenix Merch outside of the game to get the minion or mount(DO NOT tell me that it's different, it's not nor will it ever be, you still have to buy something outside of the game to get it). If you are aiming to get something that will take time and dedication, if something as bad as actually PAYING for something gets you, yet you had no issue buying outside merch to get it otherwise...I think your priorities are incredibly skewed and you don't even notice it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

...

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With games, there are intended goals as set by the creators, and then there are personal endeavors that a player can set for themselves outside of the main goal of the game. For instance, some people do low level challenges in single player games. Was the game made with the intent of clearing it at as low a level as possible? No, but the player set that personal goal in addition to the intended goal of completing the game.

Likewise, the target of getting all of the minions or mounts is not necessarily an intended goal but merely a personal endeavor. A player that started playing now with either of those endeavors would already fail before they began. Two of the mounts in-game (the legacy chocobo and goobbue) are restricted to 1.0 players and cannot be earned even through the cash shop. For minions, the wind-up dalamud was unlocked with a code from the Before Meteor soundtrack which is out of stock, and the code must be redeemed by the end of this month. The wind-up Thancred & Minfillia minions were part of the 1 year anniversary and are no longer obtainable.

Well, this is what you get when you support the cash shop. It may seem fine to you "as long as it's not pay-to-win," or "as long as it doesn't include things I like."

This is only the beginning. We have the Triple Triad card game to look forward to, which has already been announced to award exclusive cards based on what you unlock in your phone app. I fully expect additional purchases there. Then there's the upcoming Gold Saucer -- it boggles my mind, to think of the money-grubbing horrors the company that invented All The Bravest can come up with. That's in addition to any future minions, mounts, gear, etc.

At this point, I already don't even want to hear about new mounts or minions. I just naturally assume they are all to be bought in the cash shop, because, why the heck wouldn't they be? "No news is good news" isn't really the feeling you want to be inspiring in your customers, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

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Your own personal definition of winning does not trump the definition that was set by the creators of the game, plain and simple. You can set your own goals within the game, but you can't expect SE to consider those goals to be as important as what they have instated as the intended goals of the game. What SE intends is for players to progress through the story.

FFXIV is not Pokemon. You may enjoy playing it that way (and that's fine), but that isn't why it was created, nor is it a playstyle that SE considers to be the main purpose of the game.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Your own personal definition of winning does not trump the definition that was set by the creators of the game, plain and simple. You can set your own goals within the game, but you can't expect SE to consider those goals to be as important as what they have instated as the intended goals of the game. What SE intends is for players to progress through the story.

FFXIV is not Pokemon. You may enjoy playing it that way (and that's fine), but that isn't why it was created, nor is it a playstyle that SE considers to be the main purpose of the game.

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Except nowhere in the game nor in the Lodestone or really anywhere else does it state clearly "this is the only and main condition to win the game, once you've fulfilled it you've beat the game". Most MMOs are built around a series of objectives with multiple win and lose conditions, even in this game with few relevant PvE and PvP endgame content there are many objectives to accomplish, that's also why there are so many achievement categories in the first place.

Are you saying DoH and DoL classes and players whose main focus is crafting and gathering can't ever win the game because they aren't fighting anything? PvP oriented players (yeah I know) can't win either because they aren't progressing through the Coil storyline because their main focus is PvP? Or how about 1.0, I guess only around 100 players beat the game because they were the only ones to beat Nael Hard and get White Ravens, the hardest challenge in the game.

You are doing exactly what you're telling others not to do, you are projecting your own personal definition of what winning this game means. Good thing you aren't an SE dev or representative to declare and set in stone what the definition of winning this game actually is.

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Originally Posted by Rjain

What if? What if? What if?

You could "what if" anything. Here's what's happening now: None of that. What's happening now is they are offering premium vanity content which does not affect access to content whatsoever. All of these strawmen ripostes I keep seeing are extreme what if scenarios if SE decided to block access to content and make such stuff premium. Okay, if they did that you can complain about that. But they're not doing that and it is very unlikely they will be doing that. So stop bringing up such crazy arguments.

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people said, what if extra retainers leads to a cash shop
people said, what if fantasia was the start of a cash shop
The defenders of eorzea stepped in and said HALT, why say what if lets focus on the now. Now peoples prediction were right! GAASSPP!!!

The community is to blame everyone who bought into fantasia and extra retainers only help set the precedent for this. SE will push until it pushes too far and with this community they can push pretty far. They have a lot of what the f2p community refers to as "whales" here. So they get to double dip and why wouldn't they want to take peoples money, one person buying sleipner is two months of anything sub. They can stand to lose players on this decision because there gains are so great. gamers reap what they sow, and to those that stood stead fast, I'm sorry your experience is brought down by these players its pretty unfortunate, but thats why I've unsubbed.

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Originally Posted by Roris

Are you saying DoH and DoL classes and players whose main focus is crafting and gathering can't ever win the game because they aren't fighting anything?

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Why do you think you can't start the game as a DoH or a DoL class and must instead wait until you're level 10 in a DoW/DoM class to unlock DoH/DoL? If those were meant to be the main purpose of the game, you would be allowed to start as those classes right from character creation... but you can't. Not only that, but a large number of ingredients for crafting classes are enemy or dungeon drops.

It's hardly "my own personal definition" when the game itself forces you to engage in at least a minimal amount of combat even for those classes.

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

They've just gone too far in my book.

My subscription ends in 9 days and I will NOT be renewing.

People keep saying they're ok with cash shop as long as it's not pay to win. Define 'win'. Winning in an MMO is different for every player. Winning to me would have been collecting all of the vanity gear, making furnishings for a house so I could constantly rearrange it, getting married and having a 2 person mount for me and my sweetie. So for me, this is already 'pay to win'. And I'm done.

The never-ending gear treadmill, the personal housing farce, the paid retainers to begin with and now, marriage.

Nope. Nope.

"They only pay attention to subscriber numbers" Ok
"If you don't like it, unsubscribe." Ok.

Unsubscribing, see ya.

P.S. For those of you who are totally in favor of a cash shop, do me a favor? At the end of a year, total up the money you've spent on this cash shop and take at least a full minute to think about whether or not it's really been worth it.....

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Hm...

What I think the dev had in mind when they said it's not "pay to win", they were refering to PvP/PvE content, where you "can win". How? Let alone if it's easy, hard, mindless, overcomplicated, whatever. You can win by... clearing the dungeons, raids and PvE content in general. You have a lockout system to hold the gear that is given to the players. So, let's start with this, YOU HAVE A LOCKOUT. They are already controlling the gear you can get/week.

The better the gear, the easier the content. If you can get that gear, without grinding for weeks to get one chest piece, you're "paying your win". You receive something by clearing the content, you "win" stuff like titles, achievements, KNOW ABOUT THE STORY (Guys, the T12+ cutscenes are... amazing), gear which is the main goal of doing PvE and the experience of doing said content. It doesn't matter if the gear system is not the best, the game rewards you with gear by doing PvE content and other stuff.

Same for PvP, you grind it for wolf seals. Granted, the PvP gear only works in Wolf's Den, but for people doing that, it would be just plain unfair to see someone decked out in cash shop gear. This game doesn't have a competitive PvP, which is the dev's decision. It's hard to see people hardcoring their way with it. But the same thing applies here.

Now, let's talk about minions. You receive a minion. Does it give you an achievement, can you show off all the minions you have? That guy over there has that one minion that you can't get because it's paid. So? It's your personal goal to get them all, the game doesn't reward you by getting them but by GIVING them to you as a reward for doing other stuff. You're not losing or winning anything because the more minions you have, you get nothing in exchange! It doesn't benefit you on anything! Same applies to mount and it's even more limited because you can't even use them in main cities.

TL;DR: PvE/PvE is content where you can have a "pay to win" because they reward you if you clear it, things like minions and mounts don't give you nothing in exchange and they don't benefit you. They're not pay to win. It's subjective to think the opposite, because it's your "personal goal", but nothing else. It's not hard to understand.


Edit: This includes DoL and DoH and fall into "pay to win" if you can buy something that benefit such classes, because they have a direct impact to the game.

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Originally Posted by LunaHoshino

Why do you think you can't start the game as a DoH or a DoL class and must instead wait until you're level 10 in a DoW/DoM class to unlock DoH/DoL? If those were meant to be the main purpose of the game, you would be allowed to start as those classes right from character creation... but you can't. Not only that, but a large number of ingredients for crafting classes are enemy or dungeon drops.

It's hardly "my own personal definition" when the game itself forces you to engage in at least a minimal amount of combat even for those classes.

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Legacy players didn't have to unlock them if they already had them leveled and 1.0 allowed you to start as them so there's that, but sure, new ARR players do have to unlock them like they have to do with every class by getting their starter class to 10 through quests and combat. However, once unlocked DoH/DoLs can technically progress without ever setting foot in battle as they can sustain themselves solely with the profits they make from both those disciplines combined, and then buy the mats they need with them. Sure the combat requirement might be minimal and is one of the many aspects towards progression in this game, yet it's also not the main condition to win the game as a whole as there are many win and lose conditions and objectives.

Going by the same logic, a PvE only oriented player can't also ever win the game because DoH and DoL's are full fledged classes with their own progression paths and an integral part of the game, as "optional" as you may or may not consider those classes. I guess people who don't level up all the classes be it through combat or other means can't also ever win because the game tracks your progress towards them.

Besides if the mount and minion collection aspect isn't important, then why were they featured for so long and so prominently in the very first page of a player's Lodestone profile? I don't think you could even hide those back then when you can certainly adjust the privacy settings on the other tabs like Achievements. Before tabs were implemented to tidy up those pages, I'm pretty sure mounts and minions were even displayed above a player's leveled classes, meaning they had a higher importance at least in page hierarchy. Even after the changes they are still listed under the main Character tab, meaning they are considered an important aspect of a character and a player, as important as their GC/FC, gear, stats and levels.

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

Edit: This includes DoL and DoH and fall into "pay to win" if you can buy something that benefit such classes, because they have a direct impact to the game.

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Extra paid retainers allow players to gather more mats in ventures, not just quick ventures which are also an extra gamble chance on their own, to craft more items, and also give them up to 40 additional Marketboard slots to sell more of those items make even bigger profits. If that isn't borderline P2W, I really don't know anymore.