Could have SE unknowing set FFXIV to fail....

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Originally Posted by Tawm

I wouldn't be able to enjoy group content if they removed the holy trinity.

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Dunno if its sarcasm, but i kinda agree with this. I love Tanking. I've been a Tank in any MMO or game that had the Role.

@ Tupsi "You won't get anywhere with a Black Mage acting as a healer."

Thats a pretty biased argument because the job was never intended to be a healer. RDM had the ability to do all those things because that is what it is marketed as. I doubt we will get something with the array of equips and spells RDM had (RDM main here), and that sucks. However, I do agree that there needs to be more break away from the trinity simply because it gets boring from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Trinity' works because MMOs CAN'Twork any other way, currently.
For as long as combat is auto target DnD dice rolls with stats, we can't break away from it.
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I don't think we'll ever see an MMO without the trinity system in some form.

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Going slightly off topic here, but since this is only my second mmo and my first mmo was Lord of the Rings Online, I'd like to point out that I hadn't even heard of this trinity stuff before this game. LotRO had solid classes and pretty much all of them had primary and secondary roles.

I would write about the classes here, but I doubt anybody would be interested and I have difficulty to keep it short and sweet. x') But the point is that the game pretty much plays even with 'full support classes' and you could do dungeons without a pure tank/healer as long as you used careful coordination, crowd control and minor support heals. It was one of the things that really made the game fun. You weren't restricted to play certain roles or classes to complete dungeons or raids, you just needed to have a good plan. And you could really make the classes your own! In this game you're "doin' it wrong" if you don't play in a certain way and use certain rotations, but in LotRO you could constantly improvise and try out different things.

The sad thing is that I've pretty much lowered my expectations when it comes to dungeons in this game. It's always the same old. It doesn't help that you play the classes the same way in every encounter.

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Originally Posted by Haprimac

LOTRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.[/I]

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This guy gets it.

What you say is true, but as always only to a certain degree. A Captain (which was a full blown support class like FFXI BRD) could solo heal lower tier content (3-6man) with the right setup of other Classes. Guardian (optimal for a tank) could be a full on DPS if it equipped a Greatsword and other gear fitting for the role. Conversely, the Dual Wielding Champion could just equip a shield and now its a tank. I even tanked on my Hunter when the level cap was 65.

All of these cute ideas got thrown out the window when it came to raiding. You would never bring a champion to tank Sammath Gul or have a Captain solo heal in OD. Possible, yes, but only by completely outgearing the content from top to bottom.

That game was awesome ; ;

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

If you honestly think that's fine and that doing substandard DPS while providing pretty much nothing else to your group, literally being completely outclassed by both other melee jobs is acceptable because "with enough gear anyone can do anything!" then I'd like to hear your thoughts on removing all of Bard's songs and how viable/important he is to a group comp anymore.

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To be quite frank, the mobility at a range gives BRD a significant survival boost compared to other ranged, minus songs. Not to mention the DPS.

WAR just sucked because the abilities were bad, no amount of tuning the old abilities could have made that balanced. I'm not disagreeing with you, but you can't compare 2.0 WAR to current patch DRG. DRG just really needs some numbers tweaked and the stupid flank on Heavy thrust removed. Providing NIN with a raidwide damage buff was a mistake also, that basically seals a raid spot for a NIN. I never said it was optimal, but DRG -can- do it...you just have to be more careful.

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Originally Posted by Schizm

This is more of comparing the job system within FFXIV. The one thing I liked about FFXI was even against heavy odds, people found ways to beat the tank-healer-dps system. Players were given tools to make soloing, even though difficult, possible.

With dungeons and end game content, it's so dependent on tanks that a DPS player could not survive soloing and end up being driven down like a nail in wet soil. There's no way that I can see a party of Bards or Black mages making grounds in content.

Funny thing I always mention is in the strategy guide for Ninjas for FFXI, they said it was a hard sell in the subjob area. Who knew what it became when people figured out ways to use it as a subjob.

Could they break the Tank-Healer-DPS system? Would it be too powerful if they did?

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Op play gw2 then and u'll see the horde of QQs regarding all class can heal effectively and 5 tanky guardians steamroll everything in pve

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Originally Posted by Asierid

but you can't compare 2.0 WAR to current patch DRG.

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I can agree with that. WAR had other problems besides the gear discrepancy vs PLDs - I experienced many of them first hand. :P I do think DRG is in an unfortunate situation, which is really disappointing for me since DRG is my only DPS job I have leveled and I really enjoy playing it. DRG certainly can do it, but it's similar to WAR's situation where you had to play around their weaknesses to make it through the fight... which isn't how it should be. I think they definitely deserve a buff, I don't even care about the damage just +MDEF and +Utility would be more than enough for me. We are getting way off topic though, I think, so I'll just shut up now.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

(Protip: no job was excluded, just people bad at x job which is why people didn't want to take the job, for example people said Blue Mage and Corsair were worthless end-game.)

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My alter ego back in 2008 would like to have a word for you as I was a Galka WHM in the 3X range that seeked a party for EIGHT HOURS in a single day without one. single. bloody. tell. looking for EXP. It eventually came to a point where I just took things into my own hands and used Besiged and Campaign from 3X to 54 so I could join ToAU parties and even then, WHMs were scorned upon in EXP parties during that time frame.

While it was possible to get invites, your chances of getting those invites were directly related to what job you were trying to level at the time. Got a SAM? Enjoy that free ride all the way to the top. NIN? Same deal. BRD or RDM? HELL YES!

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

and mostly everyone else just tell the newbies to level Bard or go home lol.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Yeah...that hasn't been true since 2003.

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Hate to say it but this is true. With the way XI gearing dynamic has become, it's actually the easiest to become "raid ready" as a support job (with BRD being the most popular choice) and then diversify your jobs from there. Since being raid capable requires you to complete raids for raid gear, it's that vicious cycle that keeps repeating. Most support classes can circumvent the gear check in XI that to a degree as long as they have a solid fundamental understanding of their job and have key pieces of their gear sets that were generally easy to acquire. This is in contrast to DPS slot where it was difficult to break into because your DPS is nothing compared to the DPS of another player who has access to high tier equipment.

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Originally Posted by Schizm

Players were given tools to make soloing, even though difficult, possible.

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This is definitely one aspect I miss about XI. The challenge of taking on content not designed to be handled by one individual - was quite the thrill.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I'll just shut up now.

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Im in the same boat as you. Long time DRG fan in FF series so I leveled it up and geard it out.

Conversely, id even trade in utility for more spike damage. The hallmark of DRG is jumps. They do way too little damage IMO. There is some math out there I think in this thread that states the DRG reduced CD on jumps increases DPS by 1%... why not go ahead and raise the potency on that so its up to even 3% or dare I say 5%? The tradeoff would be that they have no utility besides boosting BRD dps. I think thats fair.

MDEF needs to go up though, everyone agrees on that.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Myself alter ego back in 2008 would like to have a word for you as I was a Galka WHM in the 3X range that seeked a party for EIGHT HOURS in a single day without one. single. bloody. tell. looking for EXP. It eventually came to a point where I just took things into my own hands and used Besiged and Campaign from 3X to 54 so I could join ToAU parties and even then, WHMs were scorned upon in EXP parties during that time frame.

While it was possible to get invites, your chances of getting those invites were directly related to what job you were trying to level at the time. Got a SAM? Enjoy that free ride all the way to the top. NIN? Same deal. BRD or RDM? HELL YES!

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Hate to say it but this is true. With the way XI gearing dynamic has become, it's actually the easiest to become "raid ready" as a support job (with BRD being the most popular choice) and then diversify your jobs from there. Since being raid capable requires you to complete raids for raid gear, it's that vicious cycle that keeps repeating. Most support classes can circumvent the gear check in XI that to a degree as long as they have a solid fundamental understanding of their job and have key pieces of their gear sets that were generally easy to acquire. This is in contrast to DPS slot where it was difficult to break into because your DPS is nothing compared to the DPS of another player who has access to high tier equipment.

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This is definitely one aspect I miss about XI. The challenge of taking on content not designed to be handled by one individual - was quite the thrill.

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This post is all true. 100% sums up FFXI (a game I loved as well)

This will always be a problem in theme park mmo's that follow a 'trinity'

When your game revolves around raiding and gear stats of course there will be optimal rotations and classes people want. FFXI was a different breed because it didn't follow the same old song and dance most games have been following since the release of WoW, which is what made FFXI such an amazing and unique MMO.

I'm one of those rare ones who really really enjoyed the support roles. I loved bard very much..but it looks like in this game each job has the ability to break their mold even if it's very minor in some way.

I do feel if they do not want to put in a dedicated support role then they need to boost the support abilities for certain jobs to make them stand out, but you can't make one so powerful that it is a requirement for the fight. Then again if they add a support role job like bard from 11 in there with minor DPS but enough pt boost to be useful..I'll put down my SMN book and my nightlight egi's in a heartbeat.

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Originally Posted by Rocco

This will always be a problem in theme park mmo's that follow a 'trinity'

When your game revolves around raiding and gear stats of course there will be optimal rotations and classes people want. FFXI was a different breed because it didn't follow the same old song and dance most games have been following since the release of WoW, which is what made FFXI such an amazing and unique MMO.

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There was not a trinity in FFXI but a quadrality with Tank/Healer/DPS/support and it's not better, only worse because instead of the 2 choke point (tank and healer) you had 3 choke point (tank, healer and support).
The only thing that people could try to be innovative with is how people would assume the role like for example the tank : could be the DRK/NIN, the PLD/NIN, the RDM/NIN, the BRD/NIN or ... the NIN. And that's only for the best raid team, normal ones just copy the best teams strategies.
If you try to tank as a RDM/WAR in an XP party, people will laugh at you.
Though in merit party the tank has been removed because the mobs die too fast.

and there are even more viable options than that. I think what most of the player base is asking for is even a fraction of what we were able to do "outside the box" in FFXI

Well... FFXIV isnt a D&D game... thats for certain!
What do you expect? :)

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

This guy gets it.

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But ... What you describe (and from a brief visit to youtube) LOTRO had the Tank/Heal/DPS Trinity that every other MMO has. On that Raid boss, there was someone holding the attentions of said boss while someone else healed him. That .. Thats the Holy Trinity.
You may be thinking of something else, like classes having multiple Roles (Like WoW, example the Druid. Depending on spec and gear it could Tank/Heal/Magic DPS/Melee DPS)

We don't have that. But i think it works better than the multi role system, as with a multi role system, half to a third of a class' skills cannot be utilized for the chosen Role.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

and there are even more viable options than that. I think what most of the player base is asking for is even a fraction of what we were able to do "outside the box" in FFXI

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There's not real need of "outside of the box" thinking in the way the game is played.
And if you want to specialize your job into healer/tank/dps as the need arise it will :
- confuse the Duty/Party Finder with PLD and WAR DPS unless a massive change.
- it will change nothing as people playing DPS won't play tank even if their job can specialize in tanking.
- you'll need to lot any and every equipments in the off chance that you may need to change role.
And to be honest, the "outside of the box" thinking is mostly laughed at in FFXI unless you manage some great achievement (and SE doesn't decide to nerf it like the BRD/NIN). Who remember the infamous WHM/THF ?

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

Stuff

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Originally Posted by Haprimac

stuff[/I]

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The only difference between lotro and FF meta was that they had a support class with healing capabilities in captain. It had the exact same trinity that exists in XIV Tank/Healer/DPS. Endgame raids at the time like ToO/erebor required pure tanks/healers before they completely broke the system with HD and stopped producing any new raids...not to mention LoTRO is in heavy decline. But going back to XIV, dungeons like AK have been completed with 4 DPS at 2.0, and I'm sure if people were willing to put in the time current dungeons could also be completed without pure tank/healer. However similar to LoTRO without pure role classes, time spent completing a dungeon will take longer.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

stuff

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Read my post about LOTRO and I said the exact same thing as you, and its the same in all games... in middle/intermediate content all of these outside the box things work... try it in a true endgame situation and they will rarely work.

As an aside, Captain was different in that the 3 specs truly did different things... it had a healer shell but buffed different things in different specs.

On topic... Ive done WP as a WAR w/ 3 BLMs. Ive tanked Low Level dungeons on WHM and BLM (purposely). I've DPSd as a PLD. I've DPSd as a WHM. Ive tanked as a DRG. All on purpose, all with a game plan in mind. I would never dream of doing any of those things at all endgame.

FFXI permitted things like that to happen end game. There was a boss(es?) that were much easier with a BRD tank... the game allowed it to be so. Id like a fraction of that present in FFXIV at the end game level.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Misinformation? You yourself just ignored what they wrote. This is why I have a good feeling you don't do end-game, because it's become common knowledge FCs are excluding DRGs for the higher coils, especially the final 2.

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Its not common knowledge, just blind speculation by a small % of the playerbase with no basis in reality. The fact is no job is excluded at endgame. I've personally never seen a good DRG be excluded from a group. Maybe a PUG, but a PUG hardly counts. No FC worth its salt excludes jobs. They only care about skills.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Its not common knowledge, just blind speculation by a small % of the playerbase with no basis in reality. The fact is no job is excluded at endgame. I've personally never seen a good DRG be excluded from a group. Maybe a PUG, but a PUG hardly counts. No FC worth its salt excludes jobs. They only care about skills.

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Meanwhile none of the first clear Final Coil groups used Dragoons, I just all their Dragoon players were just that bad or didn't exist before patch 2.4.

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Originally Posted by Massterchef

The only difference between lotro and FF meta was that they had a support class with healing capabilities in captain. It had the exact same trinity that exists in XIV Tank/Healer/DPS.

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No. LotRO uses a four role system with Tank/Healer/DPS/Support, and the game is structured so that the Support role is every bit as vital as the other three. (In fact, you ideally want two Support classes in a group, one focusing on buffs and another on debuffs/crowd control, so it could be thought of as five roles, though two of them fall under the category the game just calls "Support".)

Each class there also has a more versatile set of abilities, so it will be really good at one of those four roles and passable for simple or intermediate content in a second role. The ability to take on a secondary role is replaced here in this game with the ability to simply switch to a different class or job when you want to play a different role (something you can't do in LotRO except by switching characters completely, as each character can have only one class).

There isn't really a replacement here in FFXIV, however, for the missing Support role that LotRO uses. Instead, SE just tacked a few random support abilities onto classes that need to be primarily filling one of the other three roles. I see that as the biggest weakness in FFXIV's battle system, as it eliminates the most dynamic of the parts we could play.

I just wonder if SE would do a seasonal event, like BYOP (Bring your own party) or "Show me some Class", and have events that is strict one class driven but balanced to what the jobs are. An example would be, survival modes, clear rounds of mobs but everyone is the same job. People might learn seeing how other people play the same job while attacking mobs or stationary targets, after a few rounds then the mobs would attack.

Either that, would SE create content to adjust to the party make up, IF you have a SMN then mobs would have pets also or BLM then mobs would AoE magic. That would create a counter effect that patterns would develop but everyone would go in blind with DF and see what comes out. If it's just for bonus seals and not held to something that forced players to complete to continue the story line, some people might take to it. Hell, if people take PvP seriously, maybe the survival mode could fit in.

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Originally Posted by Schizm

I just wonder if SE would do a seasonal event, like BYOP (Bring your own party) or "Show me some Class", and have events that is strict one class driven but balanced to what the jobs are. An example would be, survival modes, clear rounds of mobs but everyone is the same job. People might learn seeing how other people play the same job while attacking mobs or stationary targets, after a few rounds then the mobs would attack.

Either that, would SE create content to adjust to the party make up, IF you have a SMN then mobs would have pets also or BLM then mobs would AoE magic. That would create a counter effect that patterns would develop but everyone would go in blind with DF and see what comes out. If it's just for bonus seals and not held to something that forced players to complete to continue the story line, some people might take to it. Hell, if people take PvP seriously, maybe the survival mode could fit in.

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That's a bit too much work. A good idea in theory or on paper, but either an absolute nightmare to get working properly or impossible to implement. Even if it were to happen, there are two prevalent concerns. That being that it simply means that people would exclusively do speed runs with the ideal group set up only (e.g. no BLMs invited to avoid AoE wipes or SMN to save on time and avoid killing pets) and refuse to partake in other jobs that prove detrimental to progress. Likewise, with a BYOP, it's essentially going to always be an "easiest" and "fastest" approach to it. Going all healers, for example, will never happen if it's possible to defeat content with heavy DPS only. This mentality, which is the only way things generally play out, completely defeats the purpose of having multiple jobs and roles.

In regards to the trinity setup though, the players are the ones who work with what they have to do that which wasn't intended (solo). FFXI was NOT solo friendly and was never intended to be that way, at least not in a way that was worth doing, until after WotG. The only way it became a soloable game was due to players doing things that were unintended. Running as BLM/NIN to survive pet exp kills (which wasn't much of an option until new zones appeared that had more BST job mobs).

In FFXIV, we could technically do this sort of thing now, the problem being the restriction we have with it being mandatory to use DF and queue. I have personally soloed several low lvl dungeons as SCH, for example, after asking some FC members to queue with me and drop after. There's video of low-man t5, primals, all/mostly SMN parties, etc. We can do these things that break the mold now, but SE makes it difficult (be it for legit reasons or not) to do so.

Speaking as someone who loves to solo or under-man content that was not intended to be done that way, the content design MUST be without considering the possibility to solo. That's not to say they have to actively prevent it, but rather that it's just not a concern. If things are designed to be soloed, we get brainless content (e.g. daily quests). This defeats the purpose of soloing such content, as part of the reason we do it is for the e-peen and bragging rights... not to mention the clear challenge and being able to bypass the people we hate encountering.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2574974

Yes.

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On Balmung, no Dragoon has been excluded yet and is still a pretty popular Job. FCs on Balmung value skilled players more.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

This is definitely one aspect I miss about XI. The challenge of taking on content not designed to be handled by one individual - was quite the thrill.

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I wish SE would give us a chance to see this game mechanics in FFXI world.

Say like a seasonal event, give us FFXI dunes, level sync it to proper level and see what happens.

The days of running for the zones, healers bail first, tanks last.
If you got mobbed, you were dead. One goblin was a fight, a second would destroy the party.

The only way I can explain it to someone that has played FFXIV and not FFXI, imagine doing primals where you could aggro another primal in the middle of the fight. Like Titan HM? Imagine if two or more titans could just random aggro the party.

I also liked FFXI for trying weird stuff, in the end I was doing SAM/DNC or RDM/SCH. It was even more funny to me when I thought a job/subjob would be awesome and just got beat down. Even at those fails I would laugh at.

We wouldn't have discovered that Dragoons literally can't survive partywide magic attacks in T13+ without including them in our parties.

Jussayin'.

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Originally Posted by Schizm

I also liked FFXI for trying weird stuff, in the end I was doing SAM/DNC or RDM/SCH. It was even more funny to me when I thought a job/subjob would be awesome and just got beat down. Even at those fails I would laugh at.

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FFXI is really good for that. I only had WHM leveled in it but I tried a whole bunch of off-the-wall things with WHM like /BLU for massive defenseness, /SAM for staff-fun, /PLD just for Fenrir because of that stupid Dispel, /WAR for random Fencer TP bonus while using Dagan + Gambanteinn, I was getting /MNK leveled until they nerfed Counterstance, lol. Ah well. Fun times, fun times.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Misinformation? You yourself just ignored what they wrote. This is why I have a good feeling you don't do end-game, because it's become common knowledge FCs are excluding DRGs for the higher coils, especially the final 2.

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You should stick to topics you are good at like white knighting everything to do with XI. You're very good at jumping in every thread hopelessly indignant that people dare not like your favourite video game ever but not so much at commenting on end game balance. There are DRGs who are likely further in final coil than you, there isn't many because not many people at that level play DRG and in any case its not so much the presence of a DRG that is a real handicap in these groups but when they are there in absence of a monk on t13. The other turns that you may or may not have passed are too much of a joke for it to matter.

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Originally Posted by Rocco

This will always be a problem in theme park mmo's that follow a 'trinity'

When your game revolves around raiding and gear stats of course there will be optimal rotations and classes people want. FFXI was a different breed because it didn't follow the same old song and dance most games have been following since the release of WoW, which is what made FFXI such an amazing and unique MMO.

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FFXI was different, yes. In that players demanded optimal jobs with the correct FOTM sub jobs, optimal abilites and optimal gear with optimal gear for gear swaps,

FFXI was a lot more limiting on what you could do due to the players bias to a limited number of jobs. Then again, balance was a joke between jobs in FFXI.

If raid leader orders you to switch jobs or GTFO. Then are they really the kind of people you want to spend time with to make threats like that?

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

FFXI was different, yes. In that players demanded optimal jobs with the correct FOTM sub jobs, optimal abilites and optimal gear with optimal gear for gear swaps,

FFXI was a lot more limiting on what you could do due to the players bias to a limited number of jobs. Then again, balance was a joke between jobs in FFXI.

If raid leader orders you to switch jobs or GTFO. Then are they really the kind of people you want to spend time with to make threats like that?

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You could always make your own group. Then again you're probably someone who never played FF XI and is just talking out their ass, discrimination already happens in this game - stop acting like it's some magical thing exclusive to XI. It's a behavior present in MMO players, not XI's design.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

FFXI was different, yes. In that players demanded optimal jobs with the correct FOTM sub jobs, optimal abilites and optimal gear with optimal gear for gear swaps,

FFXI was a lot more limiting on what you could do due to the players bias to a limited number of jobs. Then again, balance was a joke between jobs in FFXI.

If raid leader orders you to switch jobs or GTFO. Then are they really the kind of people you want to spend time with to make threats like that?

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You just sorta described everything that involves setting up and preparation. Video games, sports, jobs, projects, school, etc. There's practically no difference in how the players acted in FFXI, compared to how people in general act.

I will agree that the balance was ridiculous in FFXI. I strongly disagree with the limitations though, even when imposed by fellow players. There were optimal setups, like anything else in life, but most LSs did not refuse participating in content just because every single player wasn't a BLM, MNK, or whatever was FOTM. What strongly proves that it was not a limiting game was due to the fact that you were free to do as you pleased. For example, you could attempt to solo or underman content without being restricted or limited in doing so. It was possible to utilize your class and your personal player skills in ways that you may not even realize possible. It was an open world dictated primarily by the players, rather than the devs... it was "free".

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Originally Posted by Prototype909

You could always make your own group. Then again you're probably someone who never played FF XI and is just talking out their ass, discrimination already happens in this game - stop acting like it's some magical thing exclusive to XI. It's a behavior present in MMO players, not XI's design.

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Where did I say it was limited to XI?

Thought not.

End game FFXI was a lot more limiting than FFXIV based on limitations imposed by the players, I'm not talking about lowmanning content you overgear/level. I'm talking Seekers of Adoulin expansion.

Holy god that thread title.
Probably not though.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

You just sorta described everything that involves setting up and preparation. Video games, sports, jobs, projects, school, etc. There's practically no difference in how the players acted in FFXI, compared to how people in general act.

I will agree that the balance was ridiculous in FFXI. I strongly disagree with the limitations though, even when imposed by fellow players. There were optimal setups, like anything else in life, but most LSs did not refuse participating in content just because every single player wasn't a BLM, MNK, or whatever was FOTM. What strongly proves that it was not a limiting game was due to the fact that you were free to do as you pleased. For example, you could attempt to solo or underman content without being restricted or limited in doing so. It was possible to utilize your class and your personal player skills in ways that you may not even realize possible. It was an open world dictated primarily by the players, rather than the devs... it was "free".

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When you have to farm for a full week for pop items, have to buy reraise 2 necklace, super duper expensive food and cap XP for the umpth times because you die too much last time, and if you are the leader you have to coordinate a bunch of 32+ people (and kill dramas before it happens), you don't want to waste one night for nothing. You really don't want that.
It's why FFXI endgames LS are very cranky.

Farm groups for POP items on Mon/Tues depending how well they go. Dynamis on Wednesdays. Sky on Thursday. Sea and HNMs on Friday. That is what I remeber of XI. I left before they raised the cap from 75. Jobs I HAD to use were PLD, DNC and SAM. It wasn't fun after a while.