Simian Thrash ENHANCED!

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

All hail the Anarchic Commune of Sexylvania!

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Makes me want to ride naked bareback on a my little pony

They should just add a skill that lets you "evade the targets next attack" with a 100% activation rate. Then pairing that up with simian thrash would be much easier, and because we have that potency increase, makes it useful.

I don't mind the counter type skills, it applies some form of strategy where players have to watch the flow of battle to initiate specific skills. I'm not sure if it already does this or not, but does simian thrash light up in the action bar when you've met the requirement(Evade)?

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

They should just add a skill that lets you "evade the targets next attack" with a 100% activation rate. Then pairing that up with simian thrash would be much easier, and because we have that potency increase, makes it useful.

I don't mind the counter type skills, it applies some form of strategy where players have to watch the flow of battle to initiate specific skills. I'm not sure if it already does this or not, but does simian thrash light up in the action bar when you've met the requirement(Evade)?

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That wont help cause the move is still useless in group play...cant evade whats not hitting you

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Originally Posted by Firon

That wont help cause the move is still useless sin group play...cant evade whats not hitting you

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This. You're winner!

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Originally Posted by SydeBeheln

They should just add a skill that lets you "evade the targets next attack" with a 100% activation rate. Then pairing that up with simian thrash would be much easier, and because we have that potency increase, makes it useful.

I don't mind the counter type skills, it applies some form of strategy where players have to watch the flow of battle to initiate specific skills. I'm not sure if it already does this or not, but does simian thrash light up in the action bar when you've met the requirement(Evade)?

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I'm all hoorah about strategy and all, but a lot of times a PUG is not tanking and if they are they use jarring strike. And Lancers, I mean where's the tactic in Chaos Thrust?

Now that I'm back from work, I can actually type without the crappy Iphone typing.

If they don't want to take away the evade, at least let us do Hammertime after we kill the mob that we used Simian Thrash on.

yo bey could we please get a response on this issue it really sucks we can't use our strongest move in party combat

Definitely /signed on this one. SE can increase the cooldown on it if they feel that it'd make us too strong (lol). Also, its a damned shame that simian thrash has such a great animation, but it is completely blocked by the purple sun of seizure inducing death so you can see little of it. I want to see my punches connect!

I like the op's post.

I think the evade trigger should be removed. Every class should be allowed to do their "strongest" move if TP is allocated and the cooldown is up on the move.

Lancers have Chaos Thrust
Archers have Bloodletter
Marauders have Maim
Gladiators have Rage of Halone

Another alternative would be to BUFF Victimize. NEW ANIMATION, BUFFS IT DAMAGE MORE.

Either fix Simian Thrash or Redo Victimize, otherwise pugilist will be the kid on the short bus imo.

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Originally Posted by Shyd

I like the op's post.

I think the evade trigger should be removed. Every class should be allowed to do their "strongest" move if TP is allocated and the cooldown is up on the move.

Lancers have Chaos Thrust
Archers have Bloodletter
Marauders have Maim
Gladiators have Rage of Halone

Another alternative would be to BUFF Victimize. NEW ANIMATION, BUFFS IT DAMAGE MORE.

Either fix Simian Thrash or Redo Victimize, otherwise pugilist will be the kid on the short bus imo.

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Yep, PUG definitely is the kid on the short bus, at least till they decide to address this, but right now, Victimize is better use use than Simian Thrash, but it makes me want to headbutt the pointy end of a pencil when I see the animation. At least make it a "This is Sparta!" type of kick action, then, I would be pleased.

Given the amount of time it takes simian thrash to perform, they should really buff the damage. Oh, and get rid of that stupid evasion pre-req and make it so it doesn't consume all of your TP. Then we'll be happy campers.

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Originally Posted by magenta_taco

Given the amount of time it takes simian thrash to perform, they should really buff the damage. Oh, and get rid of that stupid evasion pre-req and make it so it doesn't consume all of your TP. Then we'll be happy campers.

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Yep, because with how it is now, it stands as Skill Point Slot -5

Since 1.18a, Simian Thrash is considerably stronger than Victimize II given the same circumstances. Unless Chaos Thrust at 3k TP with mob <20% HP hits harder than that, Simian Thrash has become the strongest WS in the game. It's justified due to the evade requirement.

Only thing I feel needs to change with it is to remove the little purple ball and leave only the cherry blossom effect. Also speed up the hits leading to the jump.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Since 1.18a, Simian Thrash is considerably stronger than Victimize II given the same circumstances. Unless Chaos Thrust at 3k TP with mob <20% HP hits harder than that, Simian Thrash has become the strongest WS in the game. It's justified due to the evade requirement.

Only thing I feel needs to change with it is to remove the little purple ball and leave only the cherry blossom effect. Also speed up the hits leading to the jump.

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Given the circumstances, though, Simian Thrash is mostly useless unless you're tanking in a grind group, otherwise, it's a waste of slot points.

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Originally Posted by Gath

Given the circumstances, though, Simian Thrash is mostly useless unless you're tanking in a grind group, otherwise, it's a waste of slot points.

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It's essentially limited to when you're tanking.

If they removed the evade requirement, they'd essentially have to nerf the damage on it again, which basically makes it a Victimize II with a long animation.

I'm all for more awesome, but Simian Thrash is unique as is. With 1.18a PGL got the buffs necessary to DPS better, but Simian Thrash being another 3k TP WS would be redundant.

Evade > Simian Thrash goes right along with what PGL is:

An awesome solo class and an offensive tank.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

It's essentially limited to when you're tanking.

If they removed the evade requirement, they'd essentially have to nerf the damage on it again, which basically makes it a Victimize II with a long animation.

I'm all for more awesome, but Simian Thrash is unique as is. With 1.18a PGL got the buffs necessary to DPS better, but Simian Thrash being another 3k TP WS would be redundant.

Evade > Simian Thrash goes right along with what PGL is:

An awesome solo class and an offensive tank.

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Not often a PUG solo's unless he is farming @R50, and not often will a PUG take the bit of DMG over a stun if they're tanking in a group. It just keeps Simian Thrash as a less needed ability when compared with Jarring Strike, and as far as I'm concerned, Stun from evade > DMG from an evade.

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Originally Posted by Gath

Not often a PUG solo's unless he is farming @R50, and not often will a PUG take the bit of DMG over a stun if they're tanking in a group. It just keeps Simian Thrash as a less needed ability when compared with Jarring Strike, and as far as I'm concerned, Stun from evade > DMG from an evade.

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Sure it is situational. More often than not the stun is preferred. Hell I keep Haymaker, Jarring Strike & Simian Thrash on bar. Most of the time when tanking I will use Haymaker > Jarring Strike on an evade but given the TP and the desire to do damage Simian Thrash is a very viable option.

Making it just another WS, like I said earlier, makes it another Victimize II with a long, flashy animation. It takes away any unique aspect it had to it.

In my opinion, situational high damage counter > long animation Victimize II.

Also, when compared to Jarring Strike II, Simian Thrash adds more than just a "bit of damage."

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Sure it is situational. More often than not the stun is preferred. Hell I keep Haymaker, Jarring Strike & Simian Thrash on bar. Most of the time when tanking I will use Haymaker > Jarring Strike on an evade but given the TP and the desire to do damage Simian Thrash is a very viable option.

Making it just another WS, like I said earlier, makes it another Victimize II with a long, flashy animation. It takes away any unique aspect it had to it.

In my opinion, situational high damage counter > long animation Victimize II.

Also, when compared to Jarring Strike II, Simian Thrash adds more than just a "bit of damage."

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Well, I know it can be situational and all, I'm just stating the preference that most of the player base has when comparing Jarring Strike and ST, though, I do love to use Victimize, though, if they made it a bit flashier, I would like it a bit more, but that is actually just staying on topic with my OP, I said Victimize was boring and they should change ST because it looks fancy/has the potential to. I also just think using ST 1 out of 10 times is a bit stupid.

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Originally Posted by Gath

Well, I know it can be situational and all, I'm just stating the preference that most of the player base has when comparing Jarring Strike and ST, though, I do love to use Victimize, though, if they made it a bit flashier, I would like it a bit more, but that is actually just staying on topic with my OP, I said Victimize was boring and they should change ST because it looks fancy/has the potential to. I also just think using ST 1 out of 10 times is a bit stupid.

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The idea is atm Simian Thrash has its own use.

The minute you remove the evade requirement as you suggest it simply becomes a flashy version of Victimize 2 that costs more Action Points. That sounds less useful to me.

Simian Thrash being a move you use 1/10 times may be stupid, but for its purpose it does what it's supposed to do better than any other skill.

Making it a Victimize II with more flash, which you pay for with a higher slot cost, is much more stupid and useless. If the proposed change is this, then I assure you Simian Thrash will never have a place on my bar as Victimize II will always beat it out.

Simian Thrash is fine as is. It can be better. It can be much better. The idea of simply removing the evasion requirement does not make it any better though. Unless you somehow think that they will remove said requirement and still keep it just as powerful - which essentially breaks the balance between 3k TP weaponskills and makes Victimize II useless.

I prefer options, not redundancy for the sake of flash.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

The idea is atm Simian Thrash has its own use.

The minute you remove the evade requirement as you suggest it simply becomes a flashy version of Victimize 2 that costs more Action Points. That sounds less useful to me.

Simian Thrash being a move you use 1/10 times may be stupid, but for its purpose it does what it's supposed to do better than any other skill.

Making it a Victimize II with more flash, which you pay for with a higher slot cost, is much more stupid and useless. If the proposed change is this, then I assure you Simian Thrash will never have a place on my bar as Victimize II will always beat it out.

Simian Thrash is fine as is. It can be better. It can be much better. The idea of simply removing the evasion requirement does not make it any better though. Unless you somehow think that they will remove said requirement and still keep it just as powerful - which essentially breaks the balance between 3k TP weaponskills and makes Victimize II useless.

I prefer options, not redundancy for the sake of flash.

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Yet, at the moment, Simian Thrash offers NO viable options other than doing DMG when you solo, and when you solo Concussive Blow is a must, so that's 3Ktp, which, for a PUG is nothing, then the need/want for Jarring Strike. Victimize is left last in between Jarring Strike after evades.

EDIT:
Actually, if you want to make things fine and dandy trhat would make ST useful, take the evade off of Jarring Strike and offer a longer CD on it, then you can spend your evade on ST.

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Originally Posted by Gath

Yet, at the moment, Simian Thrash offers NO viable options other than doing DMG when you solo, and when you solo Concussive Blow is a must, so that's 3Ktp, which, for a PUG is nothing, then the need/want for Jarring Strike. Victimize is left last in between Jarring Strike after evades.

EDIT:
Actually, if you want to make things fine and dandy trhat would make ST useful, take the evade off of Jarring Strike and offer a longer CD on it, then you can spend your evade on ST.

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You seem to be under the impression that the Stun is amazing - so amazing that doing 3x the damage of Jarring Strike II on a counter is not worth it without the Stun.

From what I can tell the Stun is most useful in interrupting the mob's WS. Otherwise you basically slow him down just a bit - and that's assuming you evade so often you effectively keep him unable to do anything. For that purpose, when tanking in a party, I don't see how it is much better than Shock Spikes being cast on you.

The Stun from Jarring Strike is very useful - more useful for certain battles (ie. vs Deepvoid Slave) and when soloing - but I wouldn't say it negates Simian Thrash entirely.

Simian Thrash does more damage than any current WS. It is an effective tool to use when you reach 3k TP. If you use Invigorate II when tanking on PGL like I do, then you will gain 3k TP even with liberal use of Jarring Strike II on evades. Then firing off a Simian Thrash will make quite the dent on the enemy.

Simian Thrash has a purpose: massive damage as punishment to the enemy. Removing the evade requirement removes the purpose.

Also, doing the same to Jarring Strike II will have a similar result. They will increase the TP cost to 1k and up the CD on it considerably. Spamming a Stun move is broken. Certain awesome skills are only that awesome because they require awesome evasion.

Evade a mob 8x in a row (which is awesome btw) and you can keep his ass stunned all the way. I've done this. It feels great.

I'm all for creative changes. Removing the evade requirement is not creative. It simply makes it into another boring WS.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

You seem to be under the impression that the Stun is amazing - so amazing that doing 3x the damage of Jarring Strike II on a counter is not worth it without the Stun.

From what I can tell the Stun is most useful in interrupting the mob's WS. Otherwise you basically slow him down just a bit - and that's assuming you evade so often you effectively keep him unable to do anything. For that purpose, when tanking in a party, I don't see how it is much better than Shock Spikes being cast on you.

The Stun from Jarring Strike is very useful - more useful for certain battles (ie. vs Deepvoid Slave) and when soloing - but I wouldn't say it negates Simian Thrash entirely.

Simian Thrash does more damage than any current WS. It is an effective tool to use when you reach 3k TP. If you use Invigorate II when tanking on PGL like I do, then you will gain 3k TP even with liberal use of Jarring Strike II on evades. Then firing off a Simian Thrash will make quite the dent on the enemy.

Simian Thrash has a purpose: massive damage as punishment to the enemy. Removing the evade requirement removes the purpose.

Also, doing the same to Jarring Strike II will have a similar result. They will increase the TP cost to 1k and up the CD on it considerably. Spamming a Stun move is broken. Certain awesome skills are only that awesome because they require awesome evasion.

Evade a mob 8x in a row (which is awesome btw) and you can keep his ass stunned all the way. I've done this. It feels great.

I'm all for creative changes. Removing the evade requirement is not creative. It simply makes it into another boring WS.

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Lol everything you said is wrong, your existence is wrong...just saying.
Anyhoo....When you have a lot of other abilities that take priority over ST, when you eventually get to where you can use a damage filler, people just use Victimize II.

My 1 gil is worth more than your 1 gil.

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Originally Posted by Gath

Lol everything you said is wrong, your existence is wrong...just saying.
Anyhoo....When you have a lot of other abilities that take priority over ST, when you eventually get to where you can use a damage filler, people just use Victimize II.

My 1 gil is worth more than your 1 gil.

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I don't know I'd definitely say it is situational. Victimize II's main advantage is that it can be used in a BR, after 1.19 that won't be the case so I think Simian Thrash would be a much better full TP move because it does better damage.

I already use it when soloing, but I could easily fit it into my DD setup or tanking setup. Being our highest damaging ability, and given how fast we are capable of generating TP it isn't really filler. Just maybe a more advanced move to pull off, but all/most classes in the game have this. You just need to know when/how to use it.

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Originally Posted by Murugan

I don't know I'd definitely say it is situational. Victimize II's main advantage is that it can be used in a BR, after 1.19 that won't be the case so I think Simian Thrash would be a much better full TP move because it does better damage.

I already use it when soloing, but I could easily fit it into my DD setup or tanking setup. Being our highest damaging ability, and given how fast we are capable of generating TP it isn't really filler. Just maybe a more advanced move to pull off, but all/most classes in the game have this. You just need to know when/how to use it.

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Lol, well not using Jarring strike instead of ST makes you very inefficient when you solo. Same with tanking, why not negate the potential damage and save the healer some time. So, yeah as a damaged filler, Victimize II is a much more sound option, but that's after you apply 3 stacks of tue concussive blow debuff.

Agreed with the OP. It's lame that the strongest Pugilist attack can really only be used if they're soloing or being a tank, while other "ultimate" weapon skills such as Chaos Thrust have no such requirement.

From what I recall from the whole class balancing thing Yoshida said he's gonna make Pugilist into more of a pure DD class, so maybe it'll change.

Luls "ultimate" ability talks, I feel bad for MRD!

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Originally Posted by Keftenk

Luls "ultimate" ability talks, I feel bad for MRD!

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Well Marauder gets screwed ten ways from Sunday anyway, they need a LOT of fixing come the class rebalance.

Yea, but SE is terrible at balancing, it'll never be made into what it should be.

I think they will have PUG and MRD balanced out, they know MRD needs tweaking, at least I hope they know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOhHrqHdv-8

this ability? idk about the evade part since i dont have this ability yet but i dont understand everyones problem with the way it looks.... it looks just like every other flashy effect from FFXI-FFXIV.
the game is horribly subdued as it is, you want the spell/ability effects even more subdued than they already are?
so far this is the only ability that ive seen that isnt as boring as LNC effects.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOhHrqHdv-8

this ability? idk about the evade part since i dont have this ability yet but i dont understand everyones problem with the way it looks.... it looks just like every other flashy effect from FFXI-FFXIV.
the game is horribly subdued as it is, you want the spell/ability effects even more subdued than they already are?
so far this is the only ability that ive seen that isnt as boring as LNC effects.

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I'd agree with the OP and say it is unnecessarily orbish, random clouds of smoke/explosions would look a bit funkier.

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Originally Posted by Gath

Lol, well not using Jarring strike instead of ST makes you very inefficient when you solo. Same with tanking, why not negate the potential damage and save the healer some time. So, yeah as a damaged filler, Victimize II is a much more sound option, but that's after you apply 3 stacks of tue concussive blow debuff.

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First off, what Murugan said about ST bein situational is 100% correct, but even as such it has it's use. You seem to be under the impression that Jarring Strike is better than ST in any circumstance when tanking - which actually leads me to believe that evading is something relatively rare for you when you tank on PGL.

I'm curious what you have your evasion and DEX at, because honestly you should be evading often enough to not feel like you messed up unless you use Jarring Strike II as your counter of choice for the opportunity.

If I have near-max HP and 3k TP when I evade, in most situations I will go for Simian Thrash because I have no trouble building TP or evading.

I'll repeat again: I'm not exactly arguing ST is perfect as is. I simply disagree with the notion that removing the evasion requirement will make ST better - unless of course they decide to keep the damage buffed as it is now, effectively ignoring any measure of class balance.

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Originally Posted by Firon

That wont help cause the move is still useless in group play...cant evade whats not hitting you

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You can taunt to make the mob hit you once in party play. Taunt gives only a small amount of enmity , the debuff on the mob makes it attack you.

I do hate the purple sun though.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

First off, what Murugan said about ST bein situational is 100% correct, but even as such it has it's use. You seem to be under the impression that Jarring Strike is better than ST in any circumstance when tanking - which actually leads me to believe that evading is something relatively rare for you when you tank on PGL.

I'm curious what you have your evasion and DEX at, because honestly you should be evading often enough to not feel like you messed up unless you use Jarring Strike II as your counter of choice for the opportunity.

If I have near-max HP and 3k TP when I evade, in most situations I will go for Simian Thrash because I have no trouble building TP or evading.

I'll repeat again: I'm not exactly arguing ST is perfect as is. I simply disagree with the notion that removing the evasion requirement will make ST better - unless of course they decide to keep the damage buffed as it is now, effectively ignoring any measure of class balance.

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I evade more than often enough, but still, if you can get a stun off at any time it takes away POTENTIAL damage, and when you're tanking/soloing then ridding yourself of any damage, even if it is potential is more efficient, as of right now, Victimize II is close to ST in damage, so why not save the evade ability for a stun if a damage ability you can use at any time is just as viable, and I say this because Victimize II is piercing damage, and at this point, piercing damage outweighs the damage of other types of damage, be it slashing or blunt.

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Originally Posted by Gath

I evade more than often enough, but still, if you can get a stun off at any time it takes away POTENTIAL damage, and when you're tanking/soloing then ridding yourself of any damage, even if it is potential is more efficient, as of right now, Victimize II is close to ST in damage, so why not save the evade ability for a stun if a damage ability you can use at any time is just as viable, and I say this because Victimize II is piercing damage, and at this point, piercing damage outweighs the damage of other types of damage, be it slashing or blunt.

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In my testing I have done 900-1k+ damage on enemies that took 650-700 damage from a vic2 (including 3+ enfeebs on target.) I assure you, if the damage amount ST has on Vic2 was not significant I wouldn't be discussing this here with you right now. However, as it stands, when ST out-damages Vic2 it out-damages Vic2 quite drastically.

Not to mention one can argue ST not only has generally better accuracy, but also does not require enfeebs on the target to compare. One can argue in most situations the target should have enfeebs anyway, but when soloing you may find yourself in a situation where ST really calls out to be the proper choice.

Besides, if you evade enough and build TP properly anyway you'll have more than 250 TP and be ready to stun the target again real soon.

From what I can tell, people just want a nice shiny ultimate skill they can use whenever they want like other classes instead of being limited to a condition. Only reason I can think of them not seeing that in Victimize II and looking for ST to be made free to use is because Vic2 doesn't have a fancy, pink animation. Really?..

Also, ridding yourself of potential damage is not always more efficient when soloing/tanking. Again you have to think of this in a much more broad window. Many times, especially in soloing, a solid offence is the best defense.

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Originally Posted by Sylkis

You can taunt to make the mob hit you once in party play. Taunt gives only a small amount of enmity , the debuff on the mob makes it attack you.

I do hate the purple sun though.

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That is something very stupid to do that one taunt could wipe your while pt.... Taunt ogre and he uses cone attack and kills all of your mages yeah.. great idea....

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Originally Posted by Gath

I evade more than often enough, but still, if you can get a stun off at any time it takes away POTENTIAL damage, and when you're tanking/soloing then ridding yourself of any damage, even if it is potential is more efficient, as of right now, Victimize II is close to ST in damage, so why not save the evade ability for a stun if a damage ability you can use at any time is just as viable, and I say this because Victimize II is piercing damage, and at this point, piercing damage outweighs the damage of other types of damage, be it slashing or blunt.

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I would also like to Add Gath that Victimize 2 will heal you more also cause of Bloodbath

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Originally Posted by Firon

I would also like to Add Gath that Victimize 2 will heal you more also cause of Bloodbath

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I actually never tried that with Bloodbath, if that's the case the more formt he heal would make it better for survivability. With soloing survivability is what you want, eh?

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Originally Posted by Gath

I actually never tried that with Bloodbath, if that's the case the more formt he heal would make it better for survivability. With soloing survivability is what you want, eh?

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yeah when i solo with pgl I almost never have to use Cure cause i rotate between Bloodbath and Second wind. I usually get 600-750 heals from bloodbath solo.

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Originally Posted by Firon

yeah when i solo with pgl I almost never have to use Cure cause i rotate between Bloodbath and Second wind. I usually get 600-750 heals from bloodbath solo.

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Yeah, that would keep you up quite well. Also can be used quite often. Again, helps with survival.