Please reconsider phase changes that heavily disadvantage players

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

I get needing to save cooldowns; I get needing to choose targets to burst; I get having to watch aggro; I don't understand why any part of the fight should require people to stand around doing nothing in order to not wipe. . .

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You're wasting your time here, some of these people are used to XI's trash combat system, where tanks had no proper tanking tools and people had to sit around to not get aggro.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Most groups don't have the option to push that hard.

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Then that's their problem.

See you say high DPS is getting punished but I can say slow DPS is getting punished for not pushing fast enough so the second bee doesn't spawn. It's all a matter of how you look at it. That's why I said that pushing phases at the wrong time is what punishes you not neccesarly only high DPS because if your group really had high DPS you wouldn't even have this problem.

Straight up if you are still getting a second honey when most people are in i110 your DPS is bad and you are getting punished for bad DPS not good DPS. I have not seen a second honey for at least 4 months. Same with t7 we just go full throttle and find that the phasing works out fine.

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Originally Posted by DishSoap

The problem isn't paying attention and dodging things, the problem is being punished for doing something to well.

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Nope - This is the problem with purely scripted encounters that reacts purely on a script rather than some randomization or letting the AI decide "for itself" rather than scripted %.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

You're wasting your time here, some of these people are used to XI's trash combat system, where tanks had no proper tanking tool

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Yeah, you never played XI this pretty much confirms it lol. The tanking and enmity system in XI was quite different, some tools weren't even tank specific but a party effort as well, e.g Thief SATA early days, Scholar's enmity control spells, Paladin's Weaponskills, Reprisal, and (depending on content), shadows/provoke. Ninja wise was their debuff spells and damage. Dancer wise was their survivability and heals. Blue Mage wise was their mitigation and damage.

In comparison XI had more tools than XIV does because no one else in your party can help you with tanking (making encounters not purely up to the tank or healer alone like it is in XIV, can't hold hate or cure? That's it.)

Yes, you are being punished for not playing your job right. Damage management is part of the job, knowing how to efficiently deliver max damage, but not so much that you overtake the tank in threat (4mans and the Death Dancers in T7 come to mind) or cause a phase change at the wrong time (T6, T7). This has been the basic definition in MMOs since the beginning, including WoW. I guess this is the complainers first MMO?

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Originally Posted by Alukah

You're wasting your time here, some of these people are used to XI's trash combat system, where tanks had no proper tanking tools and people had to sit around to not get aggro.

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Wut. Ok, you do know that was a thing in WoW too before Blizz made it impossible to take aggro off a tank cause "threat management" was toooooo haaaaaard, right? Case in point: Onyxia (the 40 man). During phase 2 she flew around so only range DPS could attack her. This caused the tank to lose threat and DPS to overtake, so when she landed in phase 3, players had to slow down or stop dps in general so the tank could retake aggro.

In BWL, Vaelastrasz's whole strategy was a balancing act between threat management and DPS. Players on the top of the hate list (besides tanks) would get "Burning Adrenalin" which gave them instant cast on all abilities as well as a damage buff, easily out aggroing the tank. They could go balls out, but then cause the boss to aggro them and wipe the raid. So they had to watch threat to make sure they didn't over aggro.

But I guess that game too had a "trashy system", right?

My personal opinion is that this entire problem (which is a recurring theme going back to 2.0), is because they decided to replace the party responsibilities that damage dealers and controllers usually have with an increased complexity to their rotations and positioning. It forces the damage dealers to pay more attention to their action bars and footing than to the actual battlefield, which is in stark contrast to when aggro management, crowd control, and situational abilities are emphasized.

That can seem like an odd thing to say, since wouldn't paying attention to your position be paying attention to the battlefield? But in practice, paying attention to the battlefield means keeping track of a lot of different things outside a given player. I'm equally skilled at playing scholar, paladin, warrior, and monk, but the monk gives me noticeably more trouble than the other three when it comes to doing Rafflasia.

In short, don't put all the blame on the damage dealers when the system emphasizes complicating their basic function in place of strategy. It's not that they're impossible to play as the currently are, but when difficulty requires tight coordination it shows.

But that's the thing, damage isn't complicated. This game is so much easier to read enmity than XI ever was. There's that incredibly convenient 'red light, green light' icon in the enemy list that practically holds your hand in controlling personal enmity. If it's turns yellow you might want to start adding a second or two between rotation actions. Orange, might want to stop the rotation and let auto-attack hold you till it drops back to yellow or green. It's not that hard. In XI you had nothing to tell you when you were pulling hate except the mob's deathly gaze as it turned around. And yet, for all of XIV's tools, few seem to be able to do just that, control their enmity.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

But that's the thing, damage isn't complicated. This game is so much easier to read enmity than XI ever was. There's that incredibly convenient 'red light, green light' icon in the enemy list that practically holds your hand in controlling personal enmity. If it's turns yellow you might want to start adding a second or two between rotation actions. Orange, might want to stop the rotation and let auto-attack hold you till it drops back to yellow or green. It's not that hard. In XI you had nothing to tell you when you were pulling hate except the mob's deathly gaze as it turned around. And yet, for all of XIV's tools, noone seems to be able to do just that, control their enmity.

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They aren't comparable. FFXI's combat system is much, much slower than FFXIV's. Faster cooldowns and more buttons to press means they will inevitably spend more of their time looking at their action bar than roles that do not have that disadvantage. Healing requires a player to be paying attention to other's health bars, but they don't need to press their keys in a specific pattern to max out healing. Tanks have simple rotations and focus almost entirely on the battlefield due to their responsibility. Damage dealers, on the other hand, are there to max out damage which requires increased focus on their own character and action bars. That will have an adverse effect on their performance as team coordination becomes more tight.

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Originally Posted by Magis

-Sip-

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He's just attacking the game and people who played it like many here tend to. He's admitted to never playing it and just "reading" about it, because for example when you just "read about" FFXIV ARR you'll read it's the most amazing MMORPG to ever exist and has nothing but unique content, amazing itemization and fantastic battle encounters. But when you actually play it...you'll realize it's still steps behind XI and WoW in many areas when it takes steps forward in some.

Since XI and WoW/WoW Babies like ARR are completely different systems, it makes sense things flow differently, but ARR's system is actually "trash" compared to many other MMOs simply because the Armory system cornered the developers.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Since XI and WoW/WoW Babies like ARR are completely different systems, it makes sense things flow differently, but ARR's system is actually "trash" compared to many other MMOs simply because the Armory system cornered the developers.

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I figured as much, since he doesn't sound like someone who'd know the combat system in XI. Also it's a dumb point saying tanks "didn't have the tools", it's just how the game was designed. ARR doesn't have a "I WIN" button that instantly kills all mobs in a 10meter radius, I guess it must be a dumb game for not giving you the proper tools.

I think the armoury "cornered" the devs cause it was turned into something that it wasn't meant to be. From what I heard, the original was built so you'd cross-class abilities to create a new "class", which got changed later into more rigid "jobs". If anything, it should have been redone from the ground up rather than slapped on ontop of a totally different foundation. What really made the problem worse was creating rigid lines between class roles and boxing yourself in with the trinity.

I actually like having phases that can overlap if you dps too hard/not hard enough. It makes the fight feel more organic and forces players to be more aware of their party members. Of course this tends to identify the players in your party who aren't really pulling their weight but it wouldn't be a problem if ARR had more collaborative utility actions. As others have mentioned, you are pretty cemented into your role and don't really have ways to help others with theirs.

Its hilarious to see some people trying to bash the OP by saying that they can't hold their dps or aggro. If you can clear the fight, holding dps is nothing but a minor annoyance. Right now for t7, we're spending more time waiting for voice to go off at 80% than we are bringing her down from 100% to 82%. As players get more geared, the time waiting will increase.

It's more irritating than a "mechanic" that will wipe you if you are stupid enough not to watch your aggro bar, not to mention that this phenomenon is a consequence of a badly designed fight. There are many games out there with bosses that phase change that don't run into this problem

There is a big difference between holding aggro because you are surpassing the tank in threat and holding aggro because the boss uses an instant wipe ability at the wrong time.

People complain about fights being just mindlessly knocking out their rotations.
People complain about fights punishing them for mindlessly knocking out their rotations.

But-t.. but.. mah deeps!1

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

Coil 2 punishes you greatly for being over geared.

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I beg to differ. Coil 2 becomes -much- easier when you overgear it. Echo will make it even simpler.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

He's not wrong. Fights are not all about maintaining the maximum amount of DPS your class can dish out from start to finish. Raiding is about controlling the encounter via various mechanics and if one of those mechanic requires you to tone down your DPS, then that's what you do. Fight mechanics are not meant to be advantageous to everyone nor be something people even like. Heck, if people would have their way, we'd have mostly Patchwerk-esque encounters.

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^ Exactly what the person I quoted said.

Have you seen the videos of the full party of Black Mages burning Moogle (Hard) in about 2 minutes (and it lasted that long because of how the first phase work, if not that instance would have lasted 15 seconds.) These "annoying" checkpoints will ensure that no matter your ilvl, you respect the design of the encounter and learn the fight instead of pushing through it with an overgeared character.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

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Your post can be pretty much summarized by the want of mechanics that people can enjoy while being challenging. The thing is this: what people enjoy and what is considered fun is entirely subjective. Halting or slowing down DPS is a mechanic that's been in MMO for a long time and honestly, it's not a half bad mechanic because it prevents people just zerging specifics encounter to bypass other mechanics therefore making the fight entirely trivial. It's not that big of an issue either. Just wait a little, transition correctly, then continue to DPS.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

You're wasting your time here, some of these people are used to XI's trash combat system, where tanks had no proper tanking tools and people had to sit around to not get aggro.

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Yeah, I don't say that often but I agree with Tupsi here. You have no idea what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Would be more believable if "control the fight" didn't translate directly into "artificially limit your dps."

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Let's say a BLM engage the fight with a triple Flare, thus doing his maximum DPS, getting aggro from the tank immediately and dying as a result.

Would you say he's doing "well" and that "artificially limiting his DPS" is a bad thing ?

In Turn 5, by DPS at the right time, you can synchronize conflag with death sentence, so that the tank can dodge everyone of them. That's something to impove the fight.

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Originally Posted by Edli

That's why I said that pushing phases at the wrong time is what punishes you not neccesarly only high DPS because if your group really had high DPS you wouldn't even have this problem.

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Eh, it's more like having weird dps that kills you. Like, values 1-50 are good, 51-70 kills you, and 70-100 is good again. I'm just asking for some other type of mechanic to force DPS to pay attention, because I don't find standing around making sure we hit the safe zone to be fun. >_>

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Halting or slowing down DPS is a mechanic that's been in MMO for a long time and honestly, it's not a half bad mechanic because it prevents people just zerging specifics encounter to bypass other mechanics therefore making the fight entirely trivial.

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Except they can:

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Straight up if you are still getting a second honey when most people are in i110 your DPS is bad and you are getting punished for bad DPS not good DPS. I have not seen a second honey for at least 4 months. Same with t7 we just go full throttle and find that the phasing works out fine.

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I mean, that's kinda the problem. If your dps naturally falls into one of the safe bands, you'll never even notice the mechanic. Most people won't see it until they start getting either better gear or more comfortable with the fight/rotation/whathaveyou. And then at some point they'll realize they can blast straight through the mechanic without caring again.

I mean, I complained about Levi X having an HP% enrage when it came out, but at least there's no dps number high enough to blast past his enrage.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Let's say a BLM engage the fight with a triple Flare, thus doing his maximum DPS, getting aggro from the tank immediately and dying as a result.

Would you say he's doing "well" and that "artificially limiting his DPS" is a bad thing ?

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I could've sworn I'd already cleared up that letting the tank establish aggro is cool, but apparently I haven't in this thread. So, let me do that now:

Slowing dps so your tank can establish hate is what any good dps should be doing. If you don't, I'm going to ask the healer to let you die. >_>

That being said, you're using one mechanic to defend a vastly different mechanic. . .

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Originally Posted by Obysuca

>_> Oh no, you actually have to pay attention and not just bash buttons? See my sig

There's a thing called "stop attacking when it gets around the %" not "keep beating on it and complain when you wipe"

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This x1000. Phase changes happen at specific healthbar percentages, if you need to stop DPS, then stop the DPS. Blaming SE because you can't be bothered to tell the group to hold damage seems like a misdiagnosis of the issue.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Eh, it's more like having weird dps that kills you. Like, values 1-50 are good, 51-70 kills you, and 70-100 is good again. I'm just asking for some other type of mechanic to force DPS to pay attention, because I don't find standing around making sure we hit the safe zone to be fun. >_>

I mean, that's kinda the problem. If your dps naturally falls into one of the safe bands, you'll never even notice the mechanic. Most people won't see it until they start getting either better gear or more comfortable with the fight/rotation/whathaveyou. And then at some point they'll realize they can blast straight through the mechanic without caring again.

I mean, I complained about Levi X having an HP% enrage when it came out, but at least there's no dps number high enough to blast past his enrage.

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Except that it isn't a problem. It might not be fun to throttle but it is necessary to a degree in certain encounters. A couple of people not finding a certain mechanic fun doesn't inherently mean that it should be changed. It means that these people should just get over something that trivial.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Slowing dps so your tank can establish hate is what any good dps should be doing. If you don't, I'm going to ask the healer to let you die. >_>

That being said, you're using one mechanic to defend a vastly different mechanic. . .

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Knowing when to DPS is what any good DPS shoud be doing, regardless of "why".

Knowing when to hold DPS, by saving damage boost for precise timing is also what any good DPS shoud be doing.
In fact, I'm sure we can find a lot of situations where "doing maximum" is not the same as "doing well"

After all, a PLD needs to know when he has to save his CD skills, thus taking more damage for some phases, and holding his WS when he needs to pop a quick Stun.
A healer needs to know his healing potency, so that he don't overheal and thus waste his precious MP.

Do you see them complaining about how they can't mindlessy mash buttons ? No.
Only the DPS have the right to not pay attention...except they don't.

There simply isn't a "doing too well"

Example Twintania. If you know, your damage output is that high, that a phase change can happen during conflags there are three solutions.
1) Slow down dps a nodge
2) Push out more damage that the phase change even hits earlier
3) Cope with it

I did 1 and 3 several times. 1 goes against the nature of a lot of players because they want to hit faster and harder without thinking.
Solution 3 damands a group without rage quitters and "you so bad /point" people, and the luck that the target of the dangerous ability isn't someone important for the next phase.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Let's say a BLM engage the fight with a triple Flare, thus doing his maximum DPS, getting aggro from the tank immediately and dying as a result.

Would you say he's doing "well" and that "artificially limiting his DPS" is a bad thing ?

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Awful example because triple flare on (I assume you mean literally) engage is wasteful of Raging Strikes and screws over all of the other DPS, because the default reaction to "mob out of control" is to stop hitting it. It's not even explicitly a DPS gain on single target. Nobody opens with triple flare on a single target boss.

Artificially limiting your DPS is when you literally have to have 6 players AFK for a minute while Ifrit EX gets far enough in his rotation to spawn final nails. Otherwise you enrage him and kill yourselves. This is terrible design and you can't argue that it isn't.

Nobody is saying that they should be able to continue mashing buttons as they get better gear and suffer no ill consequences. But that is different from being killed with little-to-no warning BECAUSE your damage is too good.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

A couple of people not finding a certain mechanic fun doesn't inherently mean that it should be changed. It means that these people should just get over something that trivial.

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Until enough of them say "If this isn't fun, why am I doing it?" >_>

I'm not saying I'm going to leave over this. Heck, I've barely touched second coil. I'm just saying there are plenty of more engaging ways to make us throttle dps. Even Blighted Bouquet from the same fight is more engaging than waiting for bees. >_>

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Knowing when to hold DPS, by saving damage boost for precise timing is also what any good DPS shoud be doing.
In fact, I'm sure we can find a lot of situations where "doing maximum" is not the same as "doing well"

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And I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm disagreeing with mechanics where I can zone out in the middle of the fight until the raid leader calls for dps again. Why should the dps be allowed to alt-tab when the other players can't?

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Artificially limiting your DPS is when you literally have to have 6 players AFK for a minute while Ifrit EX gets far enough in his rotation to spawn final nails. Otherwise you enrage him and kill yourselves. This is terrible design and you can't argue that it isn't.

Nobody is saying that they should be able to continue mashing buttons as they get better gear and suffer no ill consequences. But that is different from being killed with little-to-no warning BECAUSE your damage is too good.

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Pretty much exactly my point.

The main issue is gear is more or less equating to more work(or less work because you have to put away your weapon and wait) for the statics to re learn fights based on there item level and higher level of skill, which is rather counter productive.
Should dps pay attention yes! Can slowing down DPS as a mechanic be a cool feature yeah! Is slowing dps because youve reached max ilevel and you are good at your class because of poor fight structuring no!

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Artificially limiting your DPS is when you literally have to have 6 players AFK for a minute while Ifrit EX gets far enough in his rotation to spawn final nails. Otherwise you enrage him and kill yourselves. This is terrible design and you can't argue that it isn't.

Nobody is saying that they should be able to continue mashing buttons as they get better gear and suffer no ill consequences. But that is different from being killed with little-to-no warning BECAUSE your damage is too good.

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When an encounter is designed, it's designed with an average item level that's meant for progression in mind which means that people overgearing the encounter/having the encounter of farm status isn't the biggest factor taken into account. The example you gave is one where people overgear the instance by a higher item level than it was designed for which leads to result you've described.

Honestly, I think this is a petty issue since it barely make the affected encounters that much longer.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Until enough of them say "If this isn't fun, why am I doing it?" >_>

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Which is an extremely small amount of people, therefore a non issue.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

When an encounter is designed, it's designed with an average item level that's meant for progression in mind which means that people overgearing the encounter/having the encounter of farm status isn't the biggest factor taken into account. The example you gave is one where people overgear the instance by a higher item level than it was designed for which leads to result you've described.

Honestly, I think this is a petty issue since it barely make the affected encounters that much longer.

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That is a terrible excuse. People were running into "kill self on enrage Hellfire" when i90 was still the highest ilvl. Which is also before Echo existed for that fight. Echo and increase to i110 only made the problem more widespread.

The ilvl for Ifrit EX is what, i70? At what point do you personally consider that you've "outgeared" the fight then? My static personally was having this problem when we were all around low to mid i80s with i90 weapons. And we were still punished for a fight that was supposedly tuned to be current content.

No really, how can you defend this in any way?

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Which is an extremely small amount of people, therefore a non issue.

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Come back after you've wiped 5+ times on Ramuh EX because of bad phase changes.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

That is a terrible excuse. People were running into "kill self on enrage Hellfire" when i90 was still the highest ilvl. Which is also before Echo existed for that fight. Echo and increase to i110 only made the problem more widespread.

The ilvl for Ifrit EX is what, i70? At what point do you personally consider that you've "outgeared" the fight then? My static personally was having this problem when we were all around low to mid i80s with i90 weapons. And we were still punished for a fight that was supposedly tuned to be current content.

No really, how can you defend this in any way?

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The mechanic itself isn't inherently broken. It's the fact that the content was released with people already overgearing it which is something quite common in this game and something that I hope Square Enix fixes in the future.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

Come back after you've wiped 5+ times on Ramuh EX because of bad phase changes.

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If you can't control your phase changes after 5+ wipes, that's a PEBKAC issue.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

The mechanic itself isn't inherently broken. It's the fact that the content was released with people already overgearing it which is something quite common in this game and something that I hope Square Enix fixes in the future.

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Yes. It is. There is any number of ways they could have made Ifrit not just outright kill you for getting his HP% to an arbitrarily low threshold. Here's one: Ifrit takes 0 damage until nail phase ends.

When you literally have to have your tanks put their weapons away because even that much damage is going to enrage, you have a poorly designed fight.

Ifrit is not even the only fight to have an arbitrary pseudo-enrage for not throttling DPS: Haukke Manor HM's final boss works much the same way. A fucking 4-man dungeon boss.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

If you can't control your phase changes after 5+ wipes, that's a PEBKAC issue.

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Have you beaten Ramuh Extreme? You have your achievements on Lodestone blocked.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

Have you beaten Ramuh Extreme? You have your achievements on Lodestone blocked.

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I have and adds come at 64% and you want a thunderstorm to occur before the last add is killed for a proper tank swap.

So yes, you can avoid the wipe by doing the above.

Even if you do get double chaotic strikes, someone should be able to free them of fear before the next Ramuh aoe.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Yes. It is. There is any number of ways they could have made Ifrit not just outright kill you for getting his HP% to an arbitrarily low threshold. Here's one: Ifrit takes 0 damage until nail phase ends.

When you literally have to have your tanks put their weapons away because even that much damage is going to enrage, you have a poorly designed fight.

Ifrit is not even the only fight to have an arbitrary pseudo-enrage for not throttling DPS: Haukke Manor HM's final boss works much the same way. A fucking 4-man dungeon boss.

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And that's entirely your opinion. The mechanic serves a purpose, which is to have a certain control over the encounter and you hating doesn't mean that it's broken mechanic, it just means you hate the mechanic.

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Originally Posted by reality_check

Have you beaten Ramuh Extreme? You have your achievements on Lodestone blocked.

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That's not relevant because:

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Originally Posted by Psykotsu

I have and adds come at 64% and you want a thunderstorm to occur before the last add is killed for a proper tank swap.

So yes, you can avoid the wipe by doing the above.

Even if you do get double chaotic strikes, someone should be able to free them of fear before the next Ramuh aoe.

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Not doing a good transition is not an issue of luck or bad design, it's an issue with your lack of control over the encounter and you're punished for it.

See though, Ramuh Ex, Turn 5, Turn 7, and Turn 8 are all examples where you can push phases at awkward or inopportune times, and it can cause problems that result in deaths. And I have 0 problem with that.

Because none of them are an instant "you lose".

My hating Ifrit/HMHM's mechanics does not mean they aren't also broken.

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Originally Posted by Psykotsu

I have and adds come at 64% and you want a thunderstorm to occur before the last add is killed for a proper tank swap.

So yes, you can avoid the wipe by doing the above.

Even if you do get double chaotic strikes, someone should be able to free them of fear before the next Ramuh aoe.

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No, Ramuh can start new phases immediately with a Thunderspark. So, if you have chaotic strike go out, then a phase change, he will sometimes immediately begin the next phase with a Thunderspark, often killing your two charmed people immediately. He will also "phase change" again at 29% when he spawns his adds. If you push Ramuh EX from 30%->29% immediately after a chaotic strike, he will immediately thunderspark and kill your two charmed team members.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

And that's entirely your opinion. The mechanic serves a purpose, which is to have a certain control over the encounter and you hating doesn't mean that it's broken mechanic, it just means you hate the mechanic.

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Similarly, though, saying that it's well designed is entirely your opinion. >_>

You're saying that the mechanic makes us control our dps and the pace of the fight. We're pointing out that 1) this isn't necessarily true (see SarcasmMisser's post) and 2) there are other ways this can be accomplished.

I can understand why you would defend having a mechanic to throttle dps. I don't understand why you would defend this one in place of an alternative. >_>

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Similarly, though, saying that it's well designed is entirely your opinion. >_>

You're saying that the mechanic makes us control our dps and the pace of the fight. We're pointing out that 1) this isn't necessarily true (see SarcasmMisser's post) and 2) there are other ways this can be accomplished.

I can understand why you would defend having a mechanic to throttle dps. I don't understand why you would defend this one in place of an alternative. >_>

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I never stated that my point of view wasn't an opinion either. And I am not saying that an alternative is not feasible because, it is but that doesn't necessarily mean that I can't defend this type of mechanic either.

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I would pay money to see these kids play XI, I really would.

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Did we play the same game?

XI doesn't have the "team jump rope" mechanics XIV has. Nor were there stupid enrage timers and "LOL EVERYONE DIE AOE" outside of a handful of NMs. I can think of one fight offhand that punished you for DPSing too fast (Celestial Nexus battle) and even then it was predictable.

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Originally Posted by Alyko

Did we play the same game?

XI doesn't have the "team jump rope" mechanics XIV has. Nor were there stupid enrage timers and "LOL EVERYONE DIE AOE" outside of a handful of NMs. I can think of one fight offhand that punished you for DPSing too fast (Celestial Nexus battle) and even then it was predictable.

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It wasn't as much of a " punishment". The NMs/whatever would just gain TP faster and seemed to use it more liberally. what made it scarier was the lack of orange circles and extra debufs that got tossed around by spells. If your group paced itself you ran into far less AoE or didn't trigger nasty moves. I think there were even a few bosses that would only use their worst stuff if they took too much damage over time or were hit by certain spells.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

but that doesn't necessarily mean that I can't defend this type of mechanic either.

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If it were this or nothing, I'd probably take this.

Between this and some of the other mechanics we have, though? Not so much.

At any rate, I think we've both pretty much said our pieces on this topic, eh?