Question 18 of XVII Q&A Live Letter

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

You'll have more people leave if they can't play with the people they want than the people who have the money to afford to buy wins from coil.

It doesn't take a lot of thought to see the it to be true, when lots of linkshells and FC have disbanded because of the lock out causing them to form statics.

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You've been saying this for the better half of a year but here you are, still playing. Until you leave you're just proving yourself wrong lol.

One loot per week works in Crystal/Syrcus Tower because its one continous dungeon whereas Coil is split into 4 mini dungeons, one for each turn.

So, one roll per week on loot, would that be per turn or the whole coil? If it's per turn then you just spam one turn till everyone has a drop, move onto the next and repeat upto the last turn where you just spam it over and over until everyone has their HA weapon. Leaving no reason to enter, or at least maybe one more time to get the second drop for BiS on turns that have 2 BiS items. So 2 weeks to finish.

Once per coil? After you get your drop, theres no reason to do any more turns that week, so you end up spamming t1 one week, t2 2nd week, t3 3rd, 4th week all done.

ST, for one job lasts minimum 6 weeks.

Thats why ST/CT one loot per week wouldn't work for coil...

Or just wait for 2.4 and unlocking of 2nd coil.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Oh noes 1% of the population will sell clears to 3% of the population. Clearly worrying about less than 5% of the population is a reason to not implement something that will be of great benefit to the other 95%. Merc runs have been in every game ever, and will remain.

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What games? I've never seen the like outside of Final Fantasy XI and XIV. If it's in "every game" like you claim, why havn't I seen it before yet played numerous MMOs starting with EQ1 in '99?

SE balance based on numbers able to complete added content, selling runs throws that out by carrying players who would not be able to clear otherwise. If SEs expected figures for turn 9 are 15%, and the actual numbers, not counting sold carries are 12% then SE may make changes, if sells increase completion percentage to 15% then, according to figures, SE are on track and nothing needs to change and content will be created the same.

nb: figures are just for example, not accurate in any ways.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

What games? I've never seen the like outside of Final Fantasy XI and XIV. If it's in "every game" like you claim, why havn't I seen it before yet played numerous MMOs starting with EQ1 in '99?

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Um, numerous guilds in WoW sell things ranging from Heroic Seige of Org to challenge modes.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13733553234

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13203360558

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/12674207498

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/12673847907


I could find plenty more. Selling has been around for a while. And it's always going to happen. So yeah :c

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Originally Posted by Woona

Um, numerous guilds in WoW sell things ranging from Heroic Seige of Org to challenge modes.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13733553234

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13203360558

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/12674207498

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/12673847907


I could find plenty more. Selling has been around for a while. And it's always going to happen. So yeah :c

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So WoW and Final Fantasy.......

Always thought there was more than 3 MMOs out there. (sarcasm)

There are more but considering the biggest MMO right now doesn't give a flying monkies butt if people sell hmm -shrug-

If people wanna throw their gil at other people for gear and a clear who cares. I'd throw so much gil at yoshi for better big fish rng D:

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Originally Posted by Woona

There are more but considering the biggest MMO right now doesn't give a flying monkies butt if people sell hmm -shrug-

If people wanna throw their gil at other people for gear and a clear who cares. I'd throw so much gil at yoshi for better big fish rng D:

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The only people that don't care are those that are selling runs themselves or those not at the cusp of end game raiding. If you can't see how selling runs will massively tilt the balance of the game should it become the norm, then I have no words for you.

Im thinking on buy at least T5, cause i know the fight, but i cant find ppls that are good too, most wipe in divebomb and it makes me so mad .-. . I think its the only option i have.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

The only people that don't care are those that are selling runs themselves or those not at the cusp of end game raiding. If you can't see how selling runs will massively tilt the balance of the game should it become the norm, then I have no words for you.

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Again, how is a small portion of the population going to "massively tilt the balance of the game"? You also act like every carry is a terrible player, which they are not.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Again, how is a small portion of the population going to "massively tilt the balance of the game"? You also act like every carry is a terrible player, which they are not.

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Because those "small portion of the population" actually are the ones who release strategies and guides for others to follow, those are the ones who balance the economy from having access to certain raid drops and selling those, and most importantly those 5% that you mentioned were ironically the targeted audience that you designed the content for in the first place. This would remove a lot of motivation for things like world's first and achievements.

make it one clear per week - after one clear you cant loot anymore but can still enter - yes this will encourage selling coil runs and probably rmt, but I guess that's the minority compared to the people who can truly benefit from this. the good will weigh more than the bad. the community will be really happy.

or the safe route. create a practice coil with the same fight, no story(remove all cutscenes), no loot but anyone can enter.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

You've been saying this for the better half of a year but here you are, still playing. Until you leave you're just proving yourself wrong lol.

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I am still playing, I did take a break, and made a rage quit thread. it from an extreme lack of things to do when I am not out, or trying to work on a comic production, or working the overnight at security.

And I am sure there are plenty of other people who have quit and are never coming back over this issue of not being able to play with the friends they made.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

Because those "small portion of the population" actually are the ones who release strategies and guides for others to follow, those are the ones who balance the economy from having access to certain raid drops and selling those, and most importantly those 5% that you mentioned were ironically the targeted audience that you designed the content for in the first place. This would remove a lot of motivation for things like world's first and achievements.

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It sounds like you have no idea about who participates in selling runs. Nobody popular releases bad guides to make players fail so they can sell them runs, so I have no idea what kind of point you're trying to make.

Selling runs is what we do when we ran out of content to do for the week, and really it's a chance to play with my group of friends rather than strictly my static before it is a vehicle to make money. This has no effect on pushing for world first, etc.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

It sounds like you have no idea about who participates in selling runs. Nobody popular releases bad guides to make players fail so they can sell them runs, so I have no idea what kind of point you're trying to make.

Selling runs is what we do when we ran out of content to do for the week, and really it's a chance to play with my group of friends rather than strictly my static before it is a vehicle to make money. This has no effect on pushing for world first, etc.

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Okay let me put it another way. When I talk about selling runs, its not about the previous tier of content (i.e. T1-5) but at the current tier (third coil in 2.4). If content can be cleared more quickly through selling runs/carries when it is first released, it would reduce the motivation of people going for world's first since everybody can play catch up quickly. In turn, they are less motivated to clear content as fast resulting in slower guides/videos which in turn has a snowball effect on less hardcore raiders and all the way down to everyone. So in effect, it is much more than the 3-5% you are saying. Also, since coil was intended to challenge end game players, should they not have priority over the rest in terms of how they design it?

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

People who buy runs aren't going to go for world first or write guides.

This entire game is built around playing catch up every other major content patch. The people pushing for world first know this, and this doesn't change with selling a few people clears.

I reiterate my point that you have a completely flawed view on the situation.

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It's obvious you have no idea what motivates end game raiders. It pointless continuing this conversation.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

No one getting carried is going to be getting a world's first. Those carries you are worried about don't happen till long after the world's first down and then the other FCs proceed to learn and farm. No world's first FC is going to give even the slightest bit of thought or concern to people being carried a month down the line! They will do what they always do because they want to do it and be the first. Some idiot a month down the line paying gil to to win isn't going to phase them at all. lol

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So you are saying with a one loot per lockout system, those groups won't be selling their runs to anybody stupid enough to throw gil at them?

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Not that we are against the lock out (though I have no idea what this argument is even about anymore) but if anything the lockout is great for both raiders and sellers since it keeps things competitive for the short while that it is relevant and restricts supply making carries insanely profitable.

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This pretty much. The reason why sells are worth so much gil and so highly sought after is because of the lockout. Though it still happens, the lockout restricts this to a great extent, making it so that those who really want the clear have to fork out a huge amount of money. As yoshi mentioned, only 2000 players have cleared T9 so far, so even though its been more than 4 months after its release, its still a highly prized commodity. Making it able to be farmed repeatedly with different people either by carrying or selling would devalue it to something not much different from hunts. And as mentioned, the lockouts will always be removed once the new tier is released.

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Selling is indeed the main issue that would crop up - Also there is no 'good system' in place, the only system in place is to keep the content relevant until 2.4, that way you don't "run out" of things to do.

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Here's an idea why dont they make real relevant content? Everything is 8 man dungeon there really isnt much content other than coil the 2 towers and the ex primals and to be honest im sick of seeing primals, time for something completely new.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

Okay let me put it another way. When I talk about selling runs, its not about the previous tier of content (i.e. T1-5) but at the current tier (third coil in 2.4). If content can be cleared more quickly through selling runs/carries when it is first released, it would reduce the motivation of people going for world's first since everybody can play catch up quickly. In turn, they are less motivated to clear content as fast resulting in slower guides/videos which in turn has a snowball effect on less hardcore raiders and all the way down to everyone. So in effect, it is much more than the 3-5% you are saying. Also, since coil was intended to challenge end game players, should they not have priority over the rest in terms of how they design it?

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People who buy runs aren't going to go for world first or write guides.

This entire game is built around playing catch up every other major content patch. The people pushing for world first know this, and this doesn't change with selling a few people clears.

I reiterate my point that you have a completely flawed view on the situation.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

If content can be cleared more quickly through selling runs/carries when it is first released, it would reduce the motivation of people going for world's first since everybody can play catch up quickly. In turn, they are less motivated to clear content as fast resulting in slower guides/videos which in turn has a snowball effect on less hardcore raiders and all the way down to everyone.

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No one getting carried is going to be getting a world's first. Those carries you are worried about don't happen till long after the world's first down and then the other FCs proceed to learn and farm. No world's first FC is going to give even the slightest bit of thought or concern to people being carried a month down the line! They will do what they always do because they want to do it and be the first. Some idiot a month down the line paying gil to to win isn't going to phase them at all. lol

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Originally Posted by skaterger

It's obvious you have no idea what motivates end game raiders. It pointless continuing this conversation.

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So I don't know what my own motivations are? My group had one of the earliest clears of T9 on the server and is working on Savage coil (which, by the way, only rewards a title!). My sell LS is comprised primarily of 3 statics that have a combined 40+ T9 clears. I think I'm in a very good position to talk about what motivates the top tier raiders.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

So you are saying with a one loot per lockout system, those groups won't be selling their runs to anybody stupid enough to throw gil at them?

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I never said they won't sell, after they learn and farm the turns to their hearts content they will most definitely start to sell runs. But selling those runs will have no impact on them or the world first clear groups. Its no different then when players sold X Primal runs.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

So I don't know what my own motivations are? My group had one of the earliest clears of T9 on the server and is working on Savage coil (which, by the way, only rewards a title!). My sell LS is comprised primarily of 3 statics that have a combined 40+ T9 clears. I think I'm in a very good position to talk about what motivates the top tier raiders.

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I was server first T9 and T8 on the server of that person you are replying to, and our FC covers every server first since 2.1 andwe are also the only FC that sells T9 carries so take that as you will. Not that we are against the lock out (though I have no idea what this argument is even about anymore) but if anything the lockout is great for both raiders and sellers since it keeps things competitive for the short while that it is relevant and restricts supply making carries insanely profitable.

No one who is actually competitive cares about who is clearing since well before 2.3, and we need money for melds.

Agree with the OP. I really would like to not have enter lockouts in Coil. Crystal Tower system would be good for me. This lockout have nothing to do with player skill, but only makes it harder to find enough people to do it with. I like helping others and playing with friends for just the fun of doing it, rewards are an addition. I don't mind really run sellers, if there are people willing to buy its their decision. The argument that it makes a bad players who cant play skillfully and by that spoil others play experience do not persuade me. You could say that 7 friends or LS/FC helping you for free makes the unskilled player of you too, which I think is not true.

*Off topic*
Although I read forum a lot I`m not an active poster. I got the feeling that English and Japanese communities are extremely different in not a good way.
On my JP server there are no problems with hunts being an argue and community spoil seed, we do roulette a lot so there is no problem in not being able to go to any dungeon, we help strangers not wanting anything in return, there are close to none dungeon pranks and we clear difficult content in DF. Fun to be here! I do not play on EN servers but I would like for you guys to have the same nice relations on your servers like I have on mine. Happy play for you all! ヽ( ﾟ 3ﾟ)ﾉ

The coil lockout... Interesting topic... Plenty of solutions have been already proposed (how many threads were opened in the forum about this?). But no, "we haven’t been able to find an alternative system to take its place". Bullshit. Carrying for money is an excuse. It already happens anyway. I know many players who stopped the game because of this stupid lockout. The same 8 players static is too restrictive. I was close to stop the game, because I cannot raid with my friends (night working hours). With a different lockout, I would had been able to do it during the weekend. Since I cannot progress, I am changing server, to play with people with the same playing hours than mine. So I have to say goodbye to my friends to be able to play. Great...

If you want a way that we can't get the ultimate gear in one fight. Do what you do with weathered gear and sands. Get the gear from normal gear, and get upgrades items from savage level.

This way people just can't get the best gear so quickly. It still unrestricted yet not every will be able to get the best gear. So people can do it at their own pace and the gear isn't directly handed to them. Everyone wins.

Make it so people can do Savage once & Normal once.

Only one lot.

Done.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

They don't want 7 people sitting there selling coil runs to someone who has no chance at beating coil otherwise.

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Say´s everything..

I could see one way to do lockout... only lockout the people that actually got loot not the loot itself. So if you go in with your static on t6 and you get 2 loot drops then hurrah for you but you can not do that turn for the week anymore. The rest now need to grab someone else(or an alt) if they want to keep farming that turn. That could include more people even new ones. That doesn't disrupt the current system and allows to still help others in FC/LS/PF etc... This also doesn't disrupt the idea that someone can get 2 drops for their job in a given turn.

As for selling runs I've seen 2 types of sells... one is the pure carry... - we don't care if you die we don't need you the other is... I need a group of 7 competent people that will do this with me I know the fight but lack the manpower to do it on my own(I have seen people selling such runs and I have seen atleast a few PFs going I will pay each person that helps me clear this N amount of gil).

I do not mind people selling carries or help runs - does it disagree with my own norms yes - but that's because I want to beat a fight on my own and my team's merrits.

And for those that need statics... here's a general idea on how to do it sans FC/LS(from a LS around it though it helps in communicating).
Start a PF for the fgiht you want but also add that you are looking for people to form a static and take your pick from the people that join and that you see in action - either you like them for one reason or another, either they are good at learning the fight or they actually want to join the static etc...

I don't understand why SE, and people's problem with buying runs is. Is it not the same for someone to receive the win by 7 people helping the win for free?

The only difference between the two is one pairs for it while the other is free.

But that's what makes an MMO, playing with others. Restricting people from playing with the friends they made is never a good idea. Yeah, you could find a static of your own, but then what is the point of ever having a link shell or free company.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

I don't understand why SE, and people's problem with buying runs is. Is it not the same for someone to receive the win by 7 people helping the win for free?

The only difference between the two is one pairs for it while the other is free.

But that's what makes an MMO, playing with others. Restricting people from playing with the friends they made is never a good idea. Yeah, you could find a static of your own, but then what is the point of ever having a link shell or free company.

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The gear and other rewards that come from the higher end content is intended to be for the people who can actually clear it. Free or Selling doesn't matter in that regard, they both cause people who wouldn't normally be able to clear the content to clear it anyways. To go with that, the content is designed around a certain amount of people being able to complete it before it gets nerfed. People selling runs or carrying people in general skew those numbers. It may not be something you care about, that much is obvious, but that doesn't mean it's not important at all.

Even if people disagree, the game is designed to appeal to many types, and content like this is meant to be for a certain group of people, at least until newer content comes out and such. To give those players a challenge, and a reward to go with said challenge. So, again, making it easier to sell or carry people, even if you personally would not, messes with that.

They'd ban selling runs if they cared so much about it.

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Originally Posted by ispano

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You say it\\'s for people who can clear it. Well what does it mean if some who has the skill to clear it but doesn\\'t have the people to do it.

If you didn\\'t want it cleared like that then it shouldn\\'t be made in the first place. Cause it\\'s an mmo, even just regular rpgs, you can\\'t stop that.

Example is that dead island game. Your friend can power level you through the
game.

Even if you can stop it, which Se is doing with current restrictions. It irritates and ruins portions of the community. You\\'d lose less buy allowing everyone to just go at it. Cause most people will be able to to it with friend at that point not strangers.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

You say it\\'s for people who can clear it. Well what does it mean if some who has the skill to clear it but doesn\\'t have the people to do it.

If you didn\\'t want it cleared like that then it shouldn\\'t be made in the first place. Cause it\\'s an mmo, even just regular rpgs, you can\\'t stop that.

Example is that dead island game. Your friend can power level you through the
game.

Even if you can stop it, which Se is doing with current restrictions. It irritates and ruins portions of the community. You\\'d lose less buy allowing everyone to just go at it. Cause most people will be able to to it with friend at that point not strangers.

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What's stopping you from finding friends that play at the same time as you and forming a group with them? The friends I play with are usually close friends who I know in real life. If you want to play with every tom and harry that you meet online throught DF or what, that's an unrealistic expectation. And guess what, you can still run dungeons, primals and ST with these friends who always play at a different time than you.

And yes, these restrictions are in place to prevent run selling and carries. And comparing a single player game and an mmo proves you know nothing about how an mmo works. And if you want to talk about powerlevelling, you can still do it in ffxiv, there's nothing stopping you. Powerlevelling through end game content is a total different story. The way you mention powerlevelling clearly means that you want to be carried through raids and I'm glad that SE doesn't cater to people like you.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

What's stopping you from finding friends that play at the same time as you and forming a group with them? The friends I play with are usually close friends who I know in real life. If you want to play with every tom and harry that you meet online throught DF or what, that's an unrealistic expectation. And guess what, you can still run dungeons, primals and ST with these friends who always play at a different time than you.

And yes, these restrictions are in place to prevent run selling and carries. And comparing a single player game and an mmo proves you know nothing about how an mmo works. And if you want to talk about powerlevelling, you can still do it in ffxiv, there's nothing stopping you. Powerlevelling through end game content is a total different story. The way you mention powerlevelling clearly means that you want to be carried through raids and I'm glad that SE doesn't cater to people like you.

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Wow, just wow.

I don't want to be carried through the wins. Let's get that straight right now.

What stops me from making more friends? Easy, my normal life. I work overnights full time, The people I play with do stay up late, but generally when I have a day off when I would be working low ane behold not a lot of people play at the time. And what few do are already either cleared the weeks coils leaving me to only do dungeons.

I don't like power leveling either. I loved the old way to level up grinding with people and getting to know them. Oh look something SE did away with so there's even less interaction with more people. I only want to play disciples of magic, OH LOOK AT THAT. All of them are leveled.

So don't dare label me as a person who wants an easy win. And what people do with the money THEY pay to SE is none of your business. I can't do things because of my time availability and I want SE to have a little consideration to let me play with the few online friends I can play with.

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Originally Posted by Jinrya-Geki

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So just selfish? For your own personal benefit. Like I mentioned, you can still do every other content in the game with them. Coil is locked for a reason, and a good one.

I really don't think the selling runs thing is the problem as most on this thread seem to think. It's all about time it takes to gear up. There's a limit to how quickly SE can put out new raid content. If loot was done CT style then after 13-14 weeks everyone would be fully geared in their BIS and sitting around waiting for another 14 weeks with nothing to do. CT doesn't have this problem because it's not BIS gear, so those who finish CT generally can move on to coil. IIRC Yoshi even said in an interview they intended for CT to be a soft nerf to coil by making better gear more easily available. The only alternative I've really seen to the weekly lockout is the ffxi style super low drop rates on mobs, which favors hardcore players even more than what we currently have in the game.

Social lock is silly imo.

If they care so much about win selling, then ban it. There are other systems that can be used to set a max speed of gear in the game without socially locking (removing the social lock will probably have more people gearing up (since people can not worry about having to be on at exact times every week, setting a "game" schedule- or not being kicked out of the FC dedicated group because john has 2 more dps than you and they can only get a win once), but importantly the max "speed" is still a controllable value).

If carries is an issue (not selling, just helping friends or what not) then make gear level sync so it is always a challenge until the content is turned into DF, if 7 people gear synced down can carry one person then they could do that with anyone.. not much you can do to stop this except telling them to stop playing like beasts. That'd be silly to try and stop.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

They'd ban selling runs if they cared so much about it.

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I don't think SE cares as much as some players do. What SE will care about is the backlash from the players if run selling became a rampant thing.

it's a lot easier to turn a blind eye to it when it's not happening that often. when people start seeing it everyday everywhere and the complaints start rushing in they will really care then.

A potential solution may be to make it so Coil is open for everyone but if even one person in the group of eight has cleared that turn for the week, no loot will drop in that turn for anyone. Have it so this doesn't count towards their clear for the week too so they can potentially meet with other like minded individuals and work together to actually getting a "loot" clear for the week. This way people can still go with friends to witness content and get practice without having worries about selling loot aspect of the argument (though I guess selling T9 clears might still be a thing for people setting up for 2.4).

Additionally, add another prompt to the Coil entrance so people realize they're entering a "non-loot" run and participating to help friends or for the enjoyment of coil and they can respectfully decline if required.

I imagine this would be harder to program, but it is a thought for it.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

So just selfish? For your own personal benefit. Like I mentioned, you can still do every other content in the game with them. Coil is locked for a reason, and a good one.

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No, it no longer has a good reason to be locked. Hunts destroyed what little reason SE may have once had to keep coil locked.

I agree that mercs in this game are disproportionate. There are a LOT of mercs, way more than I ever saw in XI, ever. Way more than I ever saw in WoW, ever. Every time I open PF there are 3-4 ads for mercs, a guy in my FC still runs with his merc team (he joined them for a while then came back to us for reasons unknown), half the duties I join there are people talking about either mercing or buying a merc'd run, it's rampant. If SE does not want this method of gameplay they need to crack down on it at the source, not artificially lock out content like coil. That does nothing to curb the mercenary activity.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

No, it no longer has a good reason to be locked. Hunts destroyed what little reason SE may have once had to keep coil locked.

I agree that mercs in this game are disproportionate. There are a LOT of mercs, way more than I ever saw in XI, ever. Way more than I ever saw in WoW, ever. Every time I open PF there are 3-4 ads for mercs, a guy in my FC still runs with his merc team (he joined them for a while then came back to us for reasons unknown), half the duties I join there are people talking about either mercing or buying a merc'd run, it's rampant. If SE does not want this method of gameplay they need to crack down on it at the source, not artificially lock out content like coil. That does nothing to curb the mercenary activity.

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It's not the mercing itself. It's the fact that people are getting carried. This is the main issue, even if you don't agree.

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Yoshida: Do you mean as a helper?
In that instance, my worry is the breaking down of the hierachy when players who are unable to clear content overly rely on those who can and begin getting powerful items. Though I also understand that this concern is purely from a management and development point of view. This is a hard question to answer and is why we've decided to nerf contents incrementally.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

No, it no longer has a good reason to be locked. Hunts destroyed what little reason SE may have once had to keep coil locked.

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There are 2 (likely) reasons Coil is locked.

1 - Keep raiders subbed to get the last of their gear they will need to make the next Coil less painful
2 - High Allagan is reserved for players who can complete the hardest content the game has to offer
2b - Hunts doesn't allow one to get the strongest weapon, although some non-HA weapons can get close.