Why are Healers allowed to be insanely overpowered?

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Originally Posted by Skeet

I know you didn't ask about it, I'm just saying that they aren't as "interrupted-prone" as you make them out to be.

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Then obviously healer ISNT your best class.

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Originally Posted by Gor

i am geared in all ilvl 100 rank 40 pvp gear with no healing jewelry, all fending.

http://i.imgur.com/ni39wrV.png

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Why are you wearing Wolves Den gear in Frontlines?
All that Morale could be another stat instead of wasted.

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Originally Posted by Sarahx3

Then obviously healer ISNT your best class.

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Isn't my best class, but clearly superior to most of the cry-baby healers in this thread ;)

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

/snip...


If you want to see examples of properly developed PvP, you need to cast your eyes on rival games. Guild Wars 2's World VS World brings brand new mechanics to the fold, building and applying siege weapons to destroy or to defend strongholds. I've probably over-used that example, but it's a good one. It shows that you don't need to rinse and repeat the vanilla game to get a strong PvP experience. Bringing something NEW to the table is preferable over doing the same stuff in a different setting.

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GW2 brought brand new mechanics with WvW? You mean the system they ripped off of DaoC. They also did it much worse than Daoc did. In addition to that, class balance in GW2 was a complete joke. Over-buffing/nerfing classes in oblivion while only attempting to fix it every 6 months. Meanwhile FF has actually managed some very respectable balance between all classes and has shown that they are willing to tweak and tweak until the acheive the balance they are looking for, instead of swing the nerf-hammer around blindly. Honestly, don't bring GW2 into the discussion if you're going to say "WvW" was unique, and definitely not in a thread originally about a class' balance.

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Originally Posted by Logo

Why are you wearing Wolves Den gear in Frontlines?

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because Frontlines is full of noobs that I would steamroll over even naked. not trying to sound cocky but really, that's what happens when i go in there. there is not some force to be wreckened with in there. i barely die as it is and i can keep my team up so i may as well flaunt my rank 40 bragging rights while doing it. after all i grinded months to get it.

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Originally Posted by Logo

All that Morale could be another stat instead of wasted.

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and this is where players go wrong for listening to what everyone is saying rather than researching the differences for themselves and determining if it is in fact big loss or just a minor loss. r40 pvp may be bad for some classes but for myself, the difference between wearing my pve to pvp gear is not ground-shattering. my primary stat is mind and because both sets are ilvl 100, i have the same amount of mind no matter which set i wear. as a secondary stat, some SCHs like to stack det but i prefer crit in pvp to increase my chances of getting critical Adloquium heals so Galvanize damage nullification gets doubled and i can get more heals in without being interrupted. the only thing i lose between the sets is 57 crit and its barely even noticeable when healing.

I think healers have lot stronger aoe healing than any other mmo and that is the problem for pug groups because everybody hit different target. But once u have coordinated team and you can swap fast between targets that should not be the problem anymore. I suggest using "/mk attack1" macro for marking and "/ta <attack1>" macro for targetting ur opponents once that is marked so u can do fast swaps.

People calling healing OP need to learn something.
A healer SHOULD outheal at least a couple people, otherwise he is basically a wasted spot. Why would you want a healer if he can't outheal at least a couple people over a dps? It should take a coordinated effort (chain cc's, run around a cornor, attack a couple targets at the same time) to kill a healer or someone near him.
A healer is not a master in dps (altough cleric stance is a nice boost) so having him nerfed in healing removes him from the game before it starts.

Just coordinate in your party or at least look at what is happening around you and see how you can best get rid of that pesky robed bastard in the back.
Yea i know its scary to think about working together but this is team pvp.

Healer are a bit "OP" because there is this iSync, they heal "almost" the same amount while you deal around 30-40% less damage since you don't have moral and lose around 50-70 main stat. Healers are design for PVE and they are fine in PVP without iSync restrictions

Problem is in Frontline you can be playing VS 3-4-5 or more heal at the same time, you have to OVERFOCUS one, and sleep / stun / Bump others and most of the time you are not playing as a full premade, focus is not that good,there is no CC or every CC is break etc...

PVP is fine actually, community is not :-(

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I think healers have lot stronger aoe healing than any other mmo

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you're reaching. if you ever played PvP in WoW, you would have experienced the annoying aoe heals from a Resto Druid's Tranquility, a Resto Shaman's Chain Heal or even worse, a Mistweaver Monk's Renewing Mist. Nothing like almost winning a flag only for one of those classes to show up and heal every gd thing back to full in one or two casts. then you have to kill everything all over again, including the healer(s) that seem to be immortal along with their healing totems that are one shottable but the healer can just recast them infinitely or hide them somewhere where its not immediately visible but it still heals their group. on top of that WoW PvP doesn't have the alliance party restrictions on healing like FFXIV does. it heals everyone and everything on the team. the aoe healing, and healing over all, in FFXIV is much much weaker than WoW for that reason on top of having almost every damn spell on an internal global cooldown when WoW doesn't have IGC's on many spells when you need an o-shit button. in fact that was my first thought when i started playing FFXIV that the healing classes overall were so weak and omg everything i need for an emergency is on a global cooldown. I played a Discipline Priest in WoW for 8 years which has weak aoe heals but it's Holy Priest counterpart could out-aoe-heal a WHM or SCH in this game with its pinky toe.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

People calling healing OP need to learn something.
A healer SHOULD outheal at least a couple people, otherwise he is basically a wasted spot. Why would you want a healer if he can't outheal at least a couple people over a dps? It should take a coordinated effort (chain cc's, run around a cornor, attack a couple targets at the same time) to kill a healer or someone near him.

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exactly. usually i don't die fast at all, but last night i went to Manor and Adder had an entire team of all ranged. I saw 4 bards and 4 blms. a warrior stunned me and they all focus fired me at once and i was damn near 1-shotted in seconds and there was nothing i could do about it. so yes, it takes a coordinated effort but it aint hard taking out a healer. the problem is pugs don't do that, they rather try to 1v1 some irrelevant class like a brd and leave the damn healers up and bich about things not dying and healers being op.

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Originally Posted by Caly

Problem is in Frontline you can be playing VS 3-4-5 or more heal at the same time, you have to OVERFOCUS one, and sleep / stun / Bump others and most of the time you are not playing as a full premade, focus is not that good,there is no CC or every CC is break etc...

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just like any other game with pvp. why should Frontlines be any different?

p.s. easy solution. use common sense. you should not be at a flag trying to verse 3-5 healers. when you see that, go to that same team's other flags because that means there are 1-zero healers there thus making it an easy capture; there are 5 other flags on the map you can take. its a no-brainer.

All this talk about people that don't know how team pvp works is making me consider trying to find a group to get a true premade rolling.
Would prolly utterly destroy the frontlines tough unless they meet another one.

IMO there is nothing wrong with Healers in PVP, i think the balance is more about having balanced team more than a balance between individual classes.
If they nurf healers in pvp nobody would play them!
If they had the ability to DPS high numbers as well as Heal then i would agree but they don't.

Oh and this is coming from someone who plays DPS classes in PVP.

allways the same fail with MMO : people want to have every class balanced while playing as a team ^^
I think SE had a great idea to put some restriction on arena setup, having 1 heal / 1 tank / 1 melee and 1 range give some "balance" in wolve's den, at same amount of stuff (with iSynch or not) it's all about experience and skill, even more since they reduce every single CC ^^

without setup restriction everyone would be playing with 2 healers and 2 smn x)

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Originally Posted by hours

Healers have insane numbers on the roster at the end of a match because overhealing counts towards the sum, does it not? I can easily get 200k worth of healing done by spamming Medica II in the two minutes before the match starts. Every heal registers as a full heal regardless of how much HP the target is at whereas DPS actually have to do damage to something to register any numbers.

So, if you're only looking at the chart's numbers to determine how overpowered healers are, well............

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If this is the case, it really, really needs to be fixed. The whole point of the chart is to give an idea of someone's contribution to the team, and overhealing is obviously not contributing a damn thing.

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

If this is the case, it really, really needs to be fixed. The whole point of the chart is to give an idea of someone's contribution to the team, and overhealing is obviously not contributing a damn thing.

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The charts are useless. What'd be more applicable is a listing of each party's total contribution of points from flags they've capped, drones/nodes destroyed, and points from their total combined kills.

It's never about the individual.

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Originally Posted by Gor

just like any other game with pvp. why should Frontlines be any different?

p.s. easy solution. use common sense. you should not be at a flag trying to verse 3-5 healers. when you see that, go to that same team's other flags because that means there are 1-zero healers there thus making it an easy capture; there are 5 other flags on the map you can take. its a no-brainer.

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Its funny that the solution to fighting 3 healers is run away.

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

If this is the case, it really, really needs to be fixed. The whole point of the chart is to give an idea of someone's contribution to the team, and overhealing is obviously not contributing a damn thing.

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Honestly the only thing those charts do is promote bad play.
People will go after others just to get higher damage even if it at the cost of the overal game.

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Originally Posted by Logo

Its funny that the solution to fighting 3 healers is run away.

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Did you miss the second part of that post?
Also its called picking the battles you can win. strategy, tactics, that kind of stuff.
Btw, you can win against 3 healers, but it does require some coordination and working together. If you are to incompetent for that, yes run away.

Healers are not OP. Every time I see someone complaining about healers..it's usually when it's more than two healers in a party. Of course they will be difficult to kill..but that doesn't make them OP. Healers already suffer enough in pvp. The tiniest poke will interrupt their cast. Catch a healer alone? You have a pretty big chance of downing them..just due to that.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

Catch a healer alone? You have a pretty big chance of downing them..just due to that.

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If people are playing their jobs right, you can't 1v1 a healer.

Really though, healers aren't OP it's just new players lacking experience. But I would say if anything has pushed healers closer to being, OP it's the reduced stun times. It's making things far, far too easy on healer now. I pretty much never die on whm due to it.. it just gives you so much more breathing room... that and new players making you stun immune within 10 seconds of engaging combat :lol:

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

Really though, healers aren't OP it's just bads being bads. But I would say if anything has pushed healers closer to being, OP it's the reduced stun times. It's making things far, far too easy on healer now. I pretty much never die on whm due to it.. it just gives you so much more breathing room... that and noobs making you stun immune within 10 seconds of engaging combat :lol:

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I think it's more attributed to bad melee who are like HURR DURR I SPINESHATUR DIVE U NOW right off the bat and occasionally PLDs who don't know how to set up their stun locks. That said a proper PLD stun lock is still the bane of a healer's existence. It's nice that they gave healers so much more room for error though, I really felt for them in the Den.

I also was thinking just so.
Healer has the role of healer and tank in the frontline.
Making it the result of healer deprive the role of the tank.

Healers are not tanks. Once our cd's are up or in a crucial moment Eos dies, we're dead. If a healer is alone, and at least 4 dps who don't diminish return out stuns, and has a tank stunning on them, they're dead. A tank can blow defensives and keep on tanking through all of that. So please stop saying healers are tanks. We have emergency abilities to keep us alive when the shit hits the fan, but we are not immortal gods. Every mmo I have ever played, healers are the same way. I can recall plenty of times in World of Warcraft of me on my Disc Priest carrying the flag from one end of the map to the other with an entire team of enemies on me trying to nuke me down and they never did and i capped the flag.

Or when the enemy team came to kill me in the flag room but I was stacked with 2 other healers and we just kept healing each other up and none of us died and that game has wayyyyyy more dps than this game because in that pvp, majority of the time its only dps and healers on the team, no tanks. sometimes, its even only dps and no healers. The only difference between this community and other mmo communities is that this one whines about it by demanding a change to the game code rather than dealing with the situation. but then again, there are much better pvp'rs in WoW than in FFXIV, hmm wonder why. maybe its because Blizzard encourages player development while SE encourages player baby-sitting. man up.

I hate spending my time running in a circle against Healers. Well actually any caster (I'm a DRG). But hey, if we're playing a ring of roses then it's just a matter of time till the cds are back up ;)

I'm OK with some imbalance (operative word being "some"). I think it keeps it interesting. That said,

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Originally Posted by Gor

Healers are not tanks. Once our cd's are up or in a crucial moment Eos dies, we're dead.

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What do you think tanks use for added survivability? CDs. When they're down, the tank is done. Vit/Parry probably buys them a few more seconds, but tanks keel over like any DPS once buffs are off. SCH in danger? Just Lustrate and reapply Adlo while Eos tops you off and continue kiting, often indefinitely. Pretty sure this almost inexhaustive combo often times makes you a better tank than tanks.

The argument to "just keep adding more resources until you can overcome them" is weak. I don't think anyone is claiming healers are "immortal". One of the chief complaints is that healers require too many resources to handle. I tend to agree to a point - you probably shouldn't need 5 people (according to your own post) to take down a solo SCH.

I certainly feel awfully tank-ish with Regen, Medica II, and Attunement up while a getting FF'd.

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Originally Posted by Kaisha

If people are playing their jobs right, you can't 1v1 a healer.

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You can if you can stunlock them....or if their PvP cooldowns are down. We don't ALWAYS have all our skills up and ready....maybe that healer just finished soloing 1:1 and now needed time to rest but didn't get it....maybe that healer was pressured and ran 'back to safety' only to find their team not there. Stuff happens.

Still, if the other person also plays their role right, it's a 50/50 who will win. People just get eaten by a healer and automatically think 'OP' ....because the healer didn't lay down and die...you're not going beat down EVERY healer...if you did, then your role would be 'OP'

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

People just get eaten by a healer and automatically think 'OP' ....because the healer didn't lay down and die...you're not going beat down EVERY healer...if you did, then your role would be 'OP'

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people wont be satisfied until healers are nerfed down to just that ... squishy healers. then they'll be right back on these forums complaining about they can't take down a base because they keep wiping since their healers die too fast and they can never stay alive. people will never be satisfied.

what's that saying about the grass being greener?

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Originally Posted by Gor

people wont be satisfied until healers are nerfed down to just that ... squishy healers. then they'll be right back on these forums complaining about they can't take down a base because they keep wiping since their healers die too fast and they can never stay alive. people will never be satisfied.

what's that saying about the grass being greener?

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I find the only issue with healers is that they can easily all camp the middle and spam AoE healing. Locking one down is relatively easy but it's perhaps a little problematic when they have 4 healers. But at the same time as this, once you get the point that's it they aint getting it back easy. Perhaps the problem is that people focus way to much on healers, and leave BLMs and maybe SMNs alone which obv you're gunna get wasted which makes loads of healers look good.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

You can if you can stunlock them....

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Would have to be a handy stunlock, since WHM always has repose as a backup to recoup (assuming Fluid Aura was on CD), and SCH always has their pet to deal with, in which case trying to stunlock both as a PLD would leave you no room to DPS.

Most situations you'll see a healer solo are when they're holding a flag, which is when they'll be sitting with full buffs. If you catch one after they just killed another person trying to claim the flag, you can bet your bottom that their team already has a couple members otw to assist.

People are complaining because healers have an incongruent amount of utility compared to pretty much everything else.

On Scholar I can heal competently, DPS competently, and tank a respectable amount, to the point where I cannot think of a single matchup 1v1 that would make me retreat, beyond a melee DPS having limit, which is something of a cheat to begin with. Granted solo battles should not be a common occurrence, but they do happen, and I know several people that just straight up won't even bother if they see a Scholar manning an Outpost they are trying to ninja, whereas they would attack it against most anything else.

And their PvP abilities are probably the best grouping out of any class. Assuming I am facing a Black Mage or Summoner/Scholar, Focalization is like a second Virus. Aetheric Burst is like Slow for any melee class, making getting off casts easier, especially with Shadow Flare up, Mana Draw is a second MP restorative, Attunement can be compounded with Rouse on Eos, to give you a ten second breather as she sits there healing you, and Equanimity is 15 seconds of unfettered casting, as long as you don't get Stunned or Silenced. With its own natural repertoire, and PvP abilities, you're something of a one man army. You more or less have an answer to everything.

But despite that, they are obviously killable. Stack 3-4 people on one Scholar, they're going down. But that happens with any class. The fact that the Scholar will most likely live longer than anyone else is the concerning part, because in a party with 3 healers, which in my opinion is the optimal healer count for a group that can self sustain while also killing the other party, it's a grueling task to kill one, and then keep them down, because Divine Breath is so good. I remember a couple weeks back my group met another group with 3 healers, and after we finally got them all down, I glanced at the duty duration, and that single goddamn fight from start to finish was a solid 8 minutes, and I don't mean Eorzean minutes. I can only imagine how futile it would have felt if we didn't have the optimal group with good players, or not coordinated over a voip like Mumble or Teamspeak.

Scholar, and to a slightly lesser extent, White Mage, is the vanilla Street Fighter IV Sagat of Frontlines. Beatable certainly, but prepare to work your ass off trying to beat lesser skilled players than you, and if you meet a good one, well, better bring your friends as back up.

What if heals cost more mana? Or took longer to cast? The blatant issue is that healers don't have either to consider. They can just spam Physick and CureII on themselves or their teammates.

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Originally Posted by Jasiwel

What if heals cost more mana?

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Then SCHs will just use Energy Drain and Mana Draw and WHMs will just use Shroud to get mana back and carry some mana pots. So what's your point?

every class has pros/cons in pvp. i personally stay away from healers unless theres a lb up on my party, then i find the nearest whm/sch and blast him down to the dirt lol if theres no lb i just go after bards/eos and drg jump all over em till they die.

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Originally Posted by Kaisha

If people are playing their jobs right, you can't 1v1 a healer.

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I've killed people as a healer..and I've been killed as a healer in 1v1's. So yes, it's very possible to 1 vs 1 a healer.

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Originally Posted by Nomad-phx

every class has pros/cons in pvp. i personally stay away from healers unless theres a lb up on my party, then i find the nearest whm/sch and blast him down to the dirt lol if theres no lb i just go after bards/eos and drg jump all over em till they die.

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It could be hard, or very hard for some classes, but not true fo all.
For example as monk your can really make them cry, but you havent to DPS them randomly thinking "I'll try to do the highest DPS" you have to proprely attak him in order to interrupt, debuff when he buff etc...
Up to me is really hard to beat a SCH 1v1, up to now only a Marauder killed me as SCH and it was probably my fault, but up to now I saw only a monk that removed me Attunement or other buff, usually people try to just do more DPS than me and so they die.

Anyway as SCH I saw that if people focus u, and REALLY focus u, you can do really few things if other healers don't heal and protect (Stoneskin/galvanaize).
Infact usually I suggest to my party to subdivide all the healers among 2 or 3 designed DPS (usually bard) in order to interrupt, and the rest of the party will focus 1st marked.

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Originally Posted by Nomad-phx

every class has pros/cons in pvp. i personally stay away from healers unless theres a lb up on my party, then i find the nearest whm/sch and blast him down to the dirt lol if theres no lb i just go after bards/eos and drg jump all over em till they die.

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Mhm, I'm a DRG too and I generally priortize like this BLM > WHM/SCH (that isn't being cc'd or attacked to stop costs) > SMN then it's completely dependent on what's happening with my team. DRGs though just rip black mages apart in a fetter ward.