Please Remove (or raise) the 10 rank SP cap

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Originally Posted by Physic

problem with using the highets level in the party, is it screws up your sp a lot if you got one 55 and 4 50s,

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Not necessarily.

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

As it is now, killing higher rank mobs does not require more skills, it requires more healers or more cure spamming...

Maybe with the new battle system reform there will be skills involved in battles, so until we see how that changes and how it affect how strong a monster we can fight without being 1-shotted, there is no point in asking to remove/raise that cap.

Edit: this is what I meant

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it requires a real tank, who can either dodge damage effeciently or reduce it enough that a healer wont run out of mp before the fight (which is longer) is done, which in turn means the healer may have to use better mp management skills (spirit bind) well timed siphon mps(to make sure it can get better mp when the monster dies). It requires that the healer remove skills like paralysis (because the tank is actually using abilities to tank well) It requires DD who know how to avoid the dangerous weapon skills which are more of a threat to them than the tank because they arent built to take damage.

i played before the SP change, i think some of you people think people are making this up. A gladiator has a HUGE difference in damage reduction, which effects are multiplied with dlevel. they actual use active skills to achieve this, like guard, obsess, various shield skills.
and the difference between a mage who looked at a piestes eyes, and started casting paralyzega in anticipation of the incoming paralyze was often the difference between life and death.
the archer who turned the pieste with too much hate(and was poorly positioned), killed the whole backline with sandbreath.

Incapacitating a skeletons head changes the WS at its disposal, breaking a toads legs makes it fail gut press. you guys really have no idea the mob planning that at this point is all but wasted because you are fighting the equivalent of decent challenge mobs in ffxi with an 8 man team.
Its not just about increased damage. seriously go fight something 20 levels higher, you ll find you tank needs to be on point, your cross class weapon skills will tend to miss, you will need people to get debuffs off the tank as soon as they happen, you will have enough time for dots and long casting skills to pay off. its a totally different battle.

It was totally different, and the monsters didnt change

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Originally Posted by Lerris

There's the real problem.
In a theoretically perfect game, you would be forced to play well to simply defeat an opponent of equal level. An opponent 10 levels above you should steamroll you. In FFXIV as it is, levels don't mean the same thing for mobs that they mean for players.

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Exactly. We shouldn't be able to fight things 10 levels higher than us. The cap is merely a lazy fix for a sloppy out-of-whack level scale.

This is the real issue that needs to be addressed.

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Originally Posted by Physic

it requires a real tank, who can either dodge damage effeciently or reduce it enough that a healer wont run out of mp before the fight (which is longer) is done, which in turn means the healer may have to use better mp management skills (spirit bind) well timed siphon mps(to make sure it can get better mp when the monster dies). It requires that the healer remove skills like paralysis (because the tank is actually using abilities to tank well) It requires DD who know how to avoid the dangerous weapon skills which are more of a threat to them than the tank because they arent built to take damage.

i played before the SP change, i think some of you people think people are making this up. A gladiator has a HUGE difference in damage reduction, which effects are multiplied with dlevel. they actual use active skills to achieve this, like guard, obsess, various shield skills.
and the difference between a mage who looked at a piestes eyes, and started casting paralyzega in anticipation of the incoming paralyze was often the difference between life and death.
the archer who turned the pieste with too much hate(and was poorly positioned), killed the whole backline with sandbreath.

Incapacitating a skeletons head changes the WS at its disposal, breaking a toads legs makes it fail gut press. you guys really have no idea the mob planning that at this point is all but wasted because you are fighting the equivalent of decent challenge mobs in ffxi with an 8 man team.
Its not just about increased damage. seriously go fight something 20 levels higher, you ll find you tank needs to be on point, your cross class weapon skills will tend to miss, you will need people to get debuffs off the tank as soon as they happen, you will have enough time for dots and long casting skills to pay off. its a totally different battle.

It was totally different, and the monsters didnt change

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Indeed. Those battles require skill, are very fun, and are the reason I play this game. I can still fight them, but am not rewarded any more than an 'easy prey' mob. It's a shame really.

Discussed the possibility of removing the SP cap with Matsui. Due to balance issues this could be extremely risky, so we're not currently planning to do this.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Discussed the possibility of removing the SP cap with Matsui. Due to balance issues this could be extremely risky, so we're not currently planning to do this.

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I'm assuming in that case, this leaves open the possibility of re-examining raising the cap after the current balancing issues have been worked out?

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Discussed the possibility of removing the SP cap with Matsui. Due to balance issues this could be extremely risky, so we're not currently planning to do this.

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hmmm well if you dont make battle more challenging, no amount of changes to the battle system will matter. So if your not raising the caps, prolly going to need to go back and make monsters with 10 levels more challenging, and probably raise sp gains, or lower tnls to accomodate the sp loss.

Battle system wont matter if the fights are zerg, zerg doesnt favor pure tanks, or pure healers.

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Originally Posted by Honz

Removing the cap would influence power leveling where a higher ranked character can kill a high ranked mob and the low ranks would just follow for large chunks of SP. Not saying this is a terrible idea but probably something SE is trying to avoid.

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just calculate it in a different way and the really low people in the party don't get the xp, can't be that hard, works just fine in other games. And on the other hand. SE can't keep focusing their decisions only around RMT and preventing powerleveling. but powerleveling can be prevented much easier.

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Originally Posted by Physic

hmmm well if you dont make battle more challenging, no amount of changes to the battle system will matter. So if your not raising the caps, prolly going to need to go back and make monsters with 10 levels more challenging, and probably raise sp gains, or lower tnls to accomodate the sp loss.

Battle system wont matter if the fights are zerg, zerg doesnt favor pure tanks, or pure healers.

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Precisely. This is discouraging news. There is no reason to fight 'hard' monsters currently. They give the same SP as those that are 10 ranks above you. At 10-ranks above mobs are extremely easy and can be disposed of quickly.

Sounds like they need to nerf all classes to even make combat challenging.

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Originally Posted by Physic

hmmm well if you dont make battle more challenging, no amount of changes to the battle system will matter. So if your not raising the caps, prolly going to need to go back and make monsters with 10 levels more challenging, and probably raise sp gains, or lower tnls to accomodate the sp loss.

Battle system wont matter if the fights are zerg, zerg doesnt favor pure tanks, or pure healers.

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if fighting higher monsters is what you want for a challenge, nothing is stopping you from doing it

the ammount of extra sp you get shouldnt dictate you going to do it if the challenge is really what this is about.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

...if the challenge is really what this is about.

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it's about being rewarded for the effort, not just the effort itself.

How is balancing difficult.......... anyone who passed highschool math can figure out a balanced system.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Discussed the possibility of removing the SP cap with Matsui. Due to balance issues this could be extremely risky, so we're not currently planning to do this.

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Please tell Matsui that this can be balanced properly and shouldn't be that risky. If they're serious about rewarding skill, then this is one of the things they will have to do.

Otherwise, they just need to make monsters a lot stronger than they are currently.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

if fighting higher monsters is what you want for a challenge, nothing is stopping you from doing it

the ammount of extra sp you get shouldnt dictate you going to do it if the challenge is really what this is about.

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the reason people say battle sucks in this game is because the monster difficulty doesnt make you use any skills, the reason people say there is no class uniqueness is because at 10 level difference your best team is always a hybrid tank, powerfull DD and a hybrid DD/healer.

a Whm class will be totally useless in this game unless they dont give anyone anything but cure 1, and heck even without a cure, 8 man team can steam roll monsters while just spamming buttons, which later on equals let AA play.

there is no need for any specialized playstyles with the current monster difficulty. think about it, why would you ever need a pld? monsters die in 20 seconds. why would you ever need a specialized healer, monsters die in twenty seconds.
Basically think what colibri parties did to whm, plds, and even ninjas. at 10 levels, everything in this game is a colibri party.



its not about challenge really, its about making people think battle isnt boring, and needing more than
2 types of classes.

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Originally Posted by viion

How is balancing difficult.......... anyone who passed highschool math can figure out a balanced system.

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Cool let me know when your releasing your MMO.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Discussed the possibility of removing the SP cap with Matsui. Due to balance issues this could be extremely risky, so we're not currently planning to do this.

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It's funny that the dev team says they want to give players challenging game play, and reward them for it, but they don't want to adjust the 10 rank sp cap for those players that look for greater reward.
Why don't you tell yoshi to just lower full parties down to 4 since content for 8 man parties is such a %@!*ing joke.

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Originally Posted by Physic

the reason people say battle sucks in this game is because the monster difficulty doesnt make you use any skills, the reason people say there is no class uniqueness is because at 10 level difference your best team is always a hybrid tank, powerfull DD and a hybrid DD/healer.

a Whm class will be totally useless in this game unless they dont give anyone anything but cure 1, and heck even without a cure, 8 man team can steam roll monsters while just spamming buttons, which later on equals let AA play.

there is no need for any specialized playstyles with the current monster difficulty. think about it, why would you ever need a pld? monsters die in 20 seconds. why would you ever need a specialized healer, monsters die in twenty seconds.
Basically think what colibri parties did to whm, plds, and even ninjas. at 10 levels, everything in this game is a colibri party.



its not about challenge really, its about making people think battle isnt boring, and needing more than
2 types of classes.

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you speak my mind. So true

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

Me personally I would prefer if they made Mobs of the same Rank as your own an actual Even Match so they would be a challenge this would make a Mob 10 Ranks above your own impossible solo and you would need a full party. They of course would have to make adjustments to SP/EXP to all world mobs to make up for this. However if you are crying over them removing the cap then you definitely wouldn't want my option.

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For the love of God, yes please. Even in WoW, fighting something 10 levels above you can be considered suicide, given the amount of resists/misses you'll get. Being able to solo things 10 ranks above me without much trouble (that is to say, there's an actual element of danger to it, but death would only happen if I got a lagspike or something) seems wrong as hell.

But barring that, capping it at 10 ranks just screws groups up. If I can solo ITs, why would I ever group for one?

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Originally Posted by Physic

hmmm well if you dont make battle more challenging, no amount of changes to the battle system will matter. So if your not raising the caps, prolly going to need to go back and make monsters with 10 levels more challenging, and probably raise sp gains, or lower tnls to accomodate the sp loss.

Battle system wont matter if the fights are zerg, zerg doesnt favor pure tanks, or pure healers.

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Well they were supposed to be going back and adjusting all monster stats with/after battle adjustments, as well as distribution, so hopefully that'll factor in as well. Its supposed to be a total revamp aside from just auto attack and class /animation revamps.

So very, very happy to see that SE can, in fact, say No to the forum mob occasionally.

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

At 10-ranks above mobs are extremely easy and can be disposed of quickly.

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I actually think this is the bigger issue. Players are too strong. I can solo rank 64 mobs with ease, how on earth are you going to balance party play when players are that strong? Fight rank 75-80 mobs in party and get 1200 SP per mob? Oh wait, mobs that high two shot you at 50, not the best party mob any more when AoE goes off. The game should be optimised around the +10 situation.

Anything over 50 should be a challenge to solo while parties aim to kill mobs in the upper 50s during their 40s. Solo SP is soon to become leve based anyway, even with current over powered characters it's just not worth grinding solo. But they could boost the SP given for a soloer fighting difficult mobs which are now closer to their own rank.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Discussed the possibility of removing the SP cap with Matsui. Due to balance issues this could be extremely risky, so we're not currently planning to do this.

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This is a huge mistake and it's extremely discouraging to hear. I would seriously think twice about continuing to play the game when the level cap is raised from 50 if it's going to be more of the same +10 rank SP cap. This system encourages anyone not satisfied with leve SP (and quest SP when they implement SP rewards for those) to go mindlessly fight trivial enemies for hours on end while they watch TV to progress. That's completely unacceptable.

Think about DoW/DoM SP compared to DoH and DoL:

DoH: Max SP recipes are DIFFICULT to complete and carry a significant chance of failure.
DoL: Max SP nodes are DIFFICULT to gather from and carry a significant chance of failure.
DoW/DoM: Max SP enemies are EASY to defeat and carry virtually NO chance of failure, even solo.

It shouldn't be like this at all, and there's no excuse for it to be.

I don't understand why this is important.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

I don't understand why this is important.

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Are you serious? This is an important step towards making battles fun. Easy mode mobs are not fun, difficult mobs are.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Are you serious? This is an important step towards making battles fun. Easy mode mobs are not fun, difficult mobs are.

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Then fight difficult mobs.

They're there and it can be done.

its important because currently all mobs 60+ are absolute useless, if you want to fight them its just for shits n giggles but you'll never get anything worthwhile, thus trying to convince people is tough since its all about gain!

I mean it isn't hard to work out balance, a levelling curve is defined by the possible gains over time, so if you extend the time, you extend the game and it evens out.

Eg (currently)
- Kill mob 10 seconds whos 10 levels higher get 10 SP
- Kill mob in 20 seconds who's 20 levels higher get 10 SP (its capped)
- kill mob in 40 seconds who's 40 levels higher get 10 SP (again, capped)

Even if you made it so you got 40 SP from the 40 levels higher mob, its identical to what you can currently do if you fight 4 mobs who are 10 levels higher. So dont talk this nonsense about "Balance" when it isn't rocket science to balance it out.

If Matsui is seriously worried about balance in this and cant do the math in his head, then he seriouslt needs to be let go and a proper professional put in place. But I don't think he's that dumb and the excuse is probably a cover up for something else.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

Then fight difficult mobs.

They're there and it can be done.

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There's no point to that since they give the same SP as easy mobs.

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Originally Posted by viion

its important because currently all mobs 60+ are absolute useless, if you want to fight them its just for shits n giggles but you'll never get anything worthwhile, thus trying to convince people is tough since its all about gain!

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So doing something for S's and G's isn't worth it?
To some people that's plenty.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

There's no point to that since they give the same SP as easy mobs.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Are you serious? This is an important step towards making battles fun. Easy mode mobs are not fun, difficult mobs are.

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So gaining sp is an indicator of how much fun you have?

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

So doing something for S's and G's isn't worth it?

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Nope, not worth it.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

To some people that's plenty.

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But that's no way to make a video game that is supposed to reward skill.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

So gaining sp is an indicator of how much fun you have?

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No, gaining SP is an indicator of how much you are rewarded for killing harder stuff. Right now, you are rewarded the same for killing hard mobs as much as you are rewarded for killing medium mobs.

There should be a dlvl cap, but 10 is way too small.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Nope, not worth it.

But that's no way to make a video game that is supposed to reward skill.

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Playing a game that has no real value to your life isn't worth it.
Skill in a video game... don't get me started.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

No, gaining SP is an indicator of how much you are rewarded for killing harder stuff. Right now, you are rewarded the same for killing hard mobs as much as you are rewarded for killing medium mobs.

There should be a dlvl cap, but 10 is way too small.

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So then kill medium mobs and get your sp efficiently.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Right now, you are rewarded the same for killing hard mobs as much as you are rewarded for killing medium mobs.

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This is totally wrong. You're rewarded LESS because it takes longer to kill the hard mob, so your SP/hr goes way down.

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

Playing a game that has no real value to your life isn't worth it.

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That doesn't mean that I haven't killed difficult stuff for S&G.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post199780

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ockup-Included

http://i.imgur.com/wPGPL.jpg

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=171597


One of the goals in an RPG is to grow your character via SP. The devs have stated that they wish to reward skillful play. Capping the SP gain at dlvl 10, within the current design of the game, does not fulfill those 2 objectives.

If you dont care, why are you hear? We want the change, its not like you're even against it you just dont care so why are you here?

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

So then kill medium mobs and get your sp efficiently.

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That does not fulfill the stated design objectives like I mentioned in the previous post. It does not create a consistent reward vs risk curve.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

This is totally wrong. You're rewarded LESS because it takes longer to kill the hard mob, so your SP/hr goes way down.

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I'm talking in terms of SP per kill, not SP per hour, since that's how the question was framed.

I know that SP/hr when killing harder mobs is less.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

That doesn't mean that I haven't killed difficult stuff for S&G.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l=1#post199780

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ockup-Included

http://i.imgur.com/wPGPL.jpg

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...entry?e=171597


One of the goals in an RPG is to grow your character via SP. The devs have stated that they wish to reward skillful play. Capping the SP gain at dlvl 10, within the current design of the game, does not fulfill those 2 objectives.

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So currently you can't grow you character via SP?

And they don't reward skillful play? Currently, sure. But what's planned in the future that we're all looking forward to isn't a cap increase.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I'm talking in terms of SP per kill, not SP per hour, since that's how the question was framed.

I know that SP/hr when killing harder mobs is less.

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I knew what you meant, I just wanted to use the opportunity to raise the point that even if we wanted to kill higher rank stuff "for kicks" we're actually penalized for doing so in our SP/hr.

Also, I can't reconcile BloodLotus's posts with... himself:

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Originally Posted by BloodLotus

Also yes for a more interesting grinding experience for all classes.

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If you want a more interesting grinding experience, then why wouldn't you want more stimulating fights?

Its not fun just beating up the same mobs day in day out in order to get the best SP gain, i wanna fight orge's but there is absolute no point, it reduces your SP gain so you could go fight one for shits n giggles, but no one will EXP on them, so i have to go back to the same old stuff.