PLEASE, stop teaching/telling new healers to DPS

When I was leveling my Scholar DPS'ing was the only thing that made running instances fun since my pet pretty much did all the healing. Granted I healed a lot in WoW so I'm not exactly new to it but still, it helps the run go faster.

Why are so many people hating on OP? I agree 100% with him/her. If you're just starting to learn about healing make sure you're 100% confident in healing before you start DPSing. Healing is your first concern, only when you have become confident in that aspect should you expand by DPSing. OP isn't saying healers shouldn't ever DPS, he's saying don't DPS if you end up slacking on your heals.

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Originally Posted by Psychosamm

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It's because of the way he presented his issue. Instead of bashing the players who haven't managed to get a grip on heal DPSing, he's telling us to stop giving the advice at all. If some idiot overexercises and passes out from exhaustion or dehydration, do you tell people to stop saying exercise is healthy? It's not the advice that's at fault, it's the players not following the advice properly.

Keeping people alive comes first, always. But only playing your class at half it's potential is just as bad imo.

How else is a Healer suposed to learn and understand when it's OK to DPS and when you need to focus on healing if people with experience don't teach them? or if they don't try it out themselves and fail a few times to learn?

I understand what th OP is trying to say, but it just sounds like he got stuck with someone who was still learning and he got frustrated because they failed... get over it and help the healer help you by giving him/ her some advice on how to do better next time. The only thing you're going to get if you whine at the healer for this is a pissed off healer, a frustrated group, and quite possibly a waste of time if the healer just up and leaves.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

It's because of the way he presented his issue. Instead of bashing the players who haven't managed to get a grip on heal DPSing, he's telling us to stop giving the advice at all. If some idiot overexercises and passes out from exhaustion or dehydration, do you tell people to stop saying exercise is healthy? It's not the advice that's at fault, it's the players not following the advice properly.

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Entirely different beast.

What the OP is saying is "stop asking new combat medics to also shoot at the Nazis, they get so distracted our wounded are not healed properly"

If someone overexercises, the advice would be to reduce the amount of effort spent in one session. In "exercise" field, the equivalent would be someone who's doing yoga but also practicing kickboxing at the same time.

A true master can do both, but for newbies, you better start getting good at one first

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Originally Posted by Raestloz

A true master can do both, but for newbies, you better start getting good at one first

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Which still doesn't make the advice wrong.

And no, that is not how the OP came off to me. Here's the exact quote.

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Originally Posted by omniwaink

If you can't do it while keeping the tank’s health above 50% at all times, just stop. And at lower levels, you don’t have the Lustrates or Divine Seal Regens that make it easier to do at higher levels.

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I'm perfectly fine with this qualifier, except it's immediately followed up with an absolute:

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Originally Posted by omniwaink

As a community, you guys have to stop spreading this message that healers should be attacking or they aren’t playing their class to their full potential.

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If healers aren't attacking when they can be, they aren't playing their class to their full potential. Fact. And I'm not going suddenly say it's false because a few dummies don't know the basics.

IMO, if i am healer and i am comfortable with DPS-ing, sure why not. If i am not, i can always just focus on healing only. I am a healer and as long as i fulfill my primary duty as a healer, no one can fault me.

No one can tell a healer that they absolutely should DPS, it is like telling a SMN that they should heal just because they have physick or a PLD that they should stoneskin just because they can cross class. Yes, it is nice if healers help out in DPS whenever they can, but if they don't and the party wipes, due to not enough DPS, then blame the DPS for not doing a good job even when that is their main role instead of bashing your healer.

And to healers out there, just because you are not a DPS and you can be lazy, doesn't mean that you cannot help out and add value to your class.

Finally to OP, you are just bad luck meeting a healing that cannot estimate and prioritize his/her mana usage.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Which still doesn't make the advice wrong.

And no, that is not how the OP came off to me. Here's the exact quote.


I'm perfectly fine with this qualifier, except it's immediately followed up with an absolute:

If healers aren't attacking when they can be, they aren't playing their class to their full potential. Fact. And I'm not going suddenly say it's false because a few dummies don't know the basics.

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I saw the title "new healer" and assumed that the OP was, talking about new healers getting brainwashed with "noob, go dps" and things go hectic because they're distracted. I did not think that OP was talking about experienced players there.

Perhaps you see things differently than I do.

my first time healing was running ak a long time ago for my relic before most people had relics, even then all it took was a regen and you can cleric stance for at least 10 seconds

A new player of any class should be trying different things and finding out what works for them. That's what the early levels are for. Nobody should be discouraged from finding their own play style.

Whether or not I DPS generally depends on how the very first pull (or the first few pulls) of the dungeon goes. It will pretty much lay the ground-work on who I'm dealing with. There have been dungeons where I've barely had to throw a cure... and then the next run of the same dungeon, I will have a group of people that are either new to the game (which is cool) / rocking low gear (which is cool if you're new :P) / or the whole group is just sucking for whatever reason, some groups have no cohesion, some people are being derps, what have you.

Point is, in the latter circumstance, we will do the first pull and I will normally find out almost immediately that this group is taking more damage than others or that we have agro problems or what have you, and I need to focus on observing health bars closely otherwise we're probably going to die. I do not have time to muck around with dancing in and out of Cleric Stance to DPS just because someone thinks watching health as a healer is "lazy".

On the flip side? I am not going to stand there and watch someone's full health bar fight after fight just waiting for an opportunity to toss a cure. If the fights are going that smoothly then I am definitely gonna do something with my time, which generally means DPS.

This sort of thing is all about knowing what you can and cannot do within the confines of any given group. Observation and reassessment is key at all points.

There is no such thing as "A healer should always DPS"
There is no such thing as "A healer should never DPS"

Get over it.

I have a level 42 SCH, and a level 35 WHM.

on my sch, I dot up an enemy, spread the love to his friends and then focus on keeping everyone near 100%. I prefer to see full health bars :3 and use a combo of SS and AD as damage mitigation just for slow server response/I wasn't paying enough attention. I use Selene to augment the party's output. I only cast ruin after SS/AD drops, then reapply.

on my WHM, I fire stone once for the debuff, then aero straight after, then focus on healing for the rest of the pull. I just don't feel /quite/ so reactive as my whm, probably cause Eos/Selene might manage to save 'X' player's bacon by a few hp just long enough for my psycik/AD to get through.

I use quick-cast on both classes because it is a god-send to us~ usually used for 1second rezzing

If i have only healed i feel i would wipe the party a lot of times:
t5: fast conflags, throw instant burst in cleric, poison, stone 2: never seen them blowup after that, tank never had issues dying knowing when to stoneskin and heal tank in death sentence.
Twisters: Dreadnight about to kill pt member if i dont stone1, then good chance death would happen, seen a lot of close calls. Again only thing im worried about is death sentence which i know is not inc yet, even if it would i can cast ss and slow dreadnight.
Last phase everyonce dying and im raising and healing everyone, good recovery.. or not, very close to downed, cool, enrage gg.
Last phase: Close to enrage, obviously going to cleric, not even going to bother healing anyone except tank unless its just regen if they are really low.

Now everyone is i90 so t5 is easy, however if this was before i would be compelled to throw dots, i.e running from twister: cleric throw dot, can still ss tank even in cleric.
Titan ex almost dead, half pt fell, im forced to dps before superbombs dps check,

t4 Dreadnaughts: dps is too low, if i dont dps we will wipe for sure, so i dps every dreadnaught and keep tank alive, gg we win,

A lot of times feel im making a calculated risk to dps, forget cleaning the run faster, however just to improve our parties chances, even in trash, i can holy aoe stun, mitigating tanks damage taken since , mobs are stunned and tank has regen on so i dont have to heal.

If i didnt develop these skills in low lvl dungeons it would be hard to do this in end game, however when i do a raid i want to play my class the best i can play it, therefore making the best decisions in the fight.

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Originally Posted by wildgalax

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I believe the OP is talking about new healers, which probably also means that they aren't doing raids...much less Twintania.

What you do in Twintania probably doesn't have a lot of bearing on what a new healer does in Toto-Rak. Most, if not all, groups can survive without a newbie healer DPSing.

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

I believe the OP is talking about new healers, which probably also means that they aren't doing raids...much less Twintania.

What you do in Twintania probably doesn't have a lot of bearing on what a new healer does in Toto-Rak. Most, if not all, groups can survive without a newbie healer DPSing.

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First new healer's shouldn't be told how to play, especially when the advise isnt that good. Second healing is always a juggle, idk why any player would want spells in their hotbar that should just be discarded, especially when they can be ultilised very well.

My point was simply how long dpsing can go, by first getting into the habit of cleric stancing in dungeons, its a great place to start since the overall dungeon is not very hard. Even if your just cleric stancing for 1 dps move and back and getting a feel for it. Which is what i did from the first mob in the first dungeon till it became second nature, hence my example. Incase you missed it, thats not just for raids, however for dungeons, where you are doing your group a favour to throw some dps. e.g last boss in ak a while ago, i wiped 2 times in a row at 1% cause the party stricly told me not to dps ever, guess it would be no issue to throw some dots, even 1 and have the tank healed, tank just died to the same catastophe. Similar to op's sentiments, which i dont find very helpful to new players, that is all.

Whenever I see, "my group wiped at X% because I didn't dps as a healer" it shows to me that your team was either not good at their classes or their gear was not right for the instance and they shouldn't be there.

WHMs I understand a bit more the limitations on DPSing. However, when I see SCHs just standing there and not even keeping shields up, im like wtf, then realise i'm a bad ass SCH ^^
but seriously, if you find yourself twiddling thumbs when healing you should dps.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Which still doesn't make the advice wrong.

And no, that is not how the OP came off to me. Here's the exact quote.


I'm perfectly fine with this qualifier, except it's immediately followed up with an absolute:

If healers aren't attacking when they can be, they aren't playing their class to their full potential. Fact. And I'm not going suddenly say it's false because a few dummies don't know the basics.

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If people aren't working when they can be, they aren't live up their full potential.
So, did u live up ur full prtential?? It's a game, stop taking it as a second job_(:з」∠)_

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Originally Posted by Krisstina

If people aren't working when they can be, they aren't live up their full potential.

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More like are you doing only what's on your desk and sitting around for half the day because you technically did what you were supposed to do? Good luck ever getting a promotion.

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Originally Posted by Krisstina

It's a game, stop taking it as a second job_(:з」∠)_

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The irony is that I'm one of the more casual players who spends more than half the day crafting. Still have 0 myth items, cleared only turn 1 of BCoB, and have almost all of the new primal and dungeon quests still unfinished.

I simply try to do my job well.

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Originally Posted by tOnni3

as a scholar, bind Embrace <f> to all atk spells and dps all day long :)

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The <f> is focustarget I'm guessing. What would be the macro for that?

Even as a SCH I don't have enough MP to DD consistently in the lower instances. People are just missing too many tools:

>No overgearing
>Tanks lacking cooldowns
>No Lustrate
>Many times capped at 2 Aetherflows

I sometimes get lowish on MP just from healing alone. Trying to DD in anything below 50 is dumb, IMO.

How I DPS while I heal

Tank going to live for the next five seconds without giving one of us a heart attack(predictable spike damage/ low damage incoming) cleric stance, stoneII, Aero, back to normal, spam cure to full.

Not enough time for all that? lock tank, tab to boss during cure cast, aero, back to tank.

Otherwise: heal tank, assume DPS have their heads not planted firmly in their own ass and therefore me doing DPS will save us seconds at best so just make sure to top everyone off so no one panics and does something stupid.

In other words: if you can do so without the tank dipping past 50%(and therefore entering OH**** POP ALL CD'S mode) then sure, DPS a bit. otherwise? Trust the DPS, it's like their entire job description.

You can summon Eos, set yourself to /follow on the tank, walk out of the room and come back when the Dungeon is complete. I'm not saying you should do this, I'm just saying you could. Eos or Selene hold their own during most non-raiding, non primal encounters.

I actually did this for the first boss of Amdapor Keep with my Company while I went to make coffee. It's pretty funny, though I wouldn't advise doing this with people you don't know. There is a lot of switching back and forth as a White Mage, but Scholars have it easy when it comes to healing and doing DPS at the same time; and they should take advantage of it.

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Originally Posted by Darksword

Even as a SCH I don't have enough MP to DD consistently in the lower instances. People are just missing too many tools:

>No overgearing
>Tanks lacking cooldowns
>No Lustrate
>Many times capped at 2 Aetherflows

I sometimes get lowish on MP just from healing alone. Trying to DD in anything below 50 is dumb, IMO.

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I've been leveling almost solely off of dungeons and I've been DPSing all the way up to Cutter's Cry. Eos can solo heal pretty much anything below that point, so either you're not microing your faerie or you're doing something terribly wrong.

With that said, SCH is my second class so I'm more than likely judging unfairly. If you're not comfortable with it, then don't, but know it's very much possible.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

That pressure comes primarily from speed runners and is not representative of general attitudes. But if you are sitting at close to full MP with Shroud/Aetherflow up with a Regen or shield on the tank and you're just standing around and twiddling your thumbs, you're not using your time wisely. Plus Holy actually saves you a bit of healing because of the stun.

Again, the OP's issue is with bads being bads. If you're playing a healer and you prioritize DPS first, you're bad and you signed up for the wrong job. End of story. To say otherwise is the equivalent of telling people that exercise is good for you, some idiot overdoing it and passing out from exhaustion or dehydration, and then telling people to stop saying exercise is healthy (see how ridiculous that sounds?).

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Eww. Did you really just say that Holy saves you some heals? Ewwwwwww. Stahp. Too expensive and the dmg output is so crappy now the only time I use holy is in Garuda EX. Saves heals. At a ridiculous cost.

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Originally Posted by Thunderz

I killed Twin

your still wrong

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What's he wrong about? And what does killing X boss give you over every other healer in the game? What, you killed one of the end-game bosses and all the sudden you're the foremost expert on all things healing? What does his post have anything to do with your retort?

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Originally Posted by Ashira

At the same time; a healer that does DPS and heals, without running out of MP is better than the healer that only heals. A healer doing DPS can in some cases be the difference between a clear and a wipe; notable cases are Titan's heart, Turn 4 and Garuda Extreme plumes. Any encounter with an enrage where every last drop of DPS is required is a time where your DPS could make the difference.

Nobody is saying DPS is more important than healing; a healer should NEVER compromise their healing for DPS; but when they are able, they would better the group to do so. This is the difference between bad healers, good healers and outstanding healers.

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I DD all the time as a healer. I don't think I am outstanding. I hate it when I HAVE to DD to cover the slow or crappy DD butts. It makes me want to punch something, so I do. I go cleric mode, cast Stone II/Aero II/ Aero I/ Holy and punch stuff. Healers get so much grief over this stupid debate. It's the only class for which elitism exists beyond the class:

"You're a great healer if you heal and DD, you're okay if you heal, you're bad if you can't do either up to X standards."

You never really hear so much elitism spewed about tanks and DD. You're a great tank if you cureII spam and SS on yourself. You're a great DD if you self-heal and heal the party to help the healer out while they are DDing. Meh.

Do it if you can. You're not better or worse for doing so or not. If your party needs your DD to clear, get a new party.

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Originally Posted by Maku

I have never seen someone say "if a healer doesn't DPS they are not doing their jobs". What most of us have said (because it is simply true) is a healer who can properly DPS while healing and MP managing makes the difference between an average healer and a stellar healer.

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Plenty of posts to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Nalou

I'm still a low level healer (35 whm). I try to dps while in dungeons, not because I don't want to heal, but because I think the whm job is designed with dpsing included in it, since we have Cleric Stance, dots and a couple nukes.

However, I don't really understand that design.
I consider Cleric Stance more an annoyance than an asset.
I need cleric stance to put dots on, but it sucks to hinder my reactivity to be able to perform a basic task like dotting.
And I don't need nuking, I do it because I have to go into Cleric stance for dots.

If I just ignore cleric stance in dungeons, I'll spend some time... doing nothing.

Cleric Stance is easy to use when everything goes right and pretty much wipes the party when something goes wrong.
I feel it punishes me too hard if I make a mistake or if someone else makes a mistake... yet I have to use it because the job is build around it.

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I disagree. I think it was set up for leveling. Could you imagine leveling with just healer stats? Sure, it can help pass time in boring dungeons, and give you something to do besides simple whack-a-mole (ever run through AK just healing with SS/Regen in cleric stance because your tank was highly padded?), but to indicate that the class is designed around it is to indicate that the mechanics require it, and that is patently wrong. IMHO.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Stoneskin is full potency during cleric stance too. Sch is the master of cleric stance healing XD. Whm is much better for WP speed runs due to holy.



As healers get more confident in their abilities they will start to dps more.

My static tank said to me . That he notices that good or experienced healers will often let him fall to low hp but bad or new healers will keep him 100% all times.

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I let my tanks fall to 10% all the time because I get the flow of the fight and know what and when to start casting stuff most of the time. Healers that keep a tank to full are not bad (maybe new or scared to do anything but heal). That's a bad attitude to have.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

If healers aren't attacking when they can be, they aren't playing their class to their full potential. Fact. And I'm not going suddenly say it's false because a few dummies don't know the basics.

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Ugh. False. We place such ridiculous burdens on healers in this game, and when someone speaks to the contrary, the counter-argument goes something like:

"Well, uh, if DD don't use their DD CDs for burst, and if the durka durrrrrr tank doesn't use his prot CDs for incoming mega damage, then they fail, so if all players durrrrrrrrrrr burp play like you (slacker healer not DDing) then hurrr-durrrr you're a bad healerrrrrrrrrrr derp."

No. Just no. Stop. Not true. Telling a healer to assume two roles while managing your health and their mana perfectly is not "playing to full potential," and does not compare (not that YOU argued this, but most people do) to the full potential of a DD class doing damage or a tank mitigating it. If you're maxing DD, you're doing it right. If you're holding hate and mitigating damage, you're doing it right. If you're keeping everyone alive (within the confines of their ability to avoid stupid damage), you're doing it right. Doing anything more than that is just an added bonus and should be praised not demanded.

Your sentiments are exactly what OP was addressing, BTW.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Whenever I see, "my group wiped at X% because I didn't dps as a healer" it shows to me that your team was either not good at their classes or their gear was not right for the instance and they shouldn't be there.

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This all day this. Nothing in this game is designed around the healers spamming damage. Nothing. Sorry, nothing.

I was in Garuda EX today, and had bard yell at me to "moar holy haz mana song" and I was like... dude, stop attacking the plumes I am killing (a) and (b) I shouldn't *have* to DPS, but I will because I can. But if I don't and we wiped, it was not my fault. And they never accept that point. Never.

Just like people who think you have to build LB on Titan, and that healers should be DDing heart phase.

Talk about people wanting to be carried.....

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Eww. Did you really just say that Holy saves you some heals? Ewwwwwww. Stahp. Too expensive and the dmg output is so crappy now the only time I use holy is in Garuda EX. Saves heals. At a ridiculous cost.

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Thanks for taking it out of context. Want to see how ridiculous your posts sound if I do the same?

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Do it if you can. You're not better or worse for doing so or not. If your party needs your DD to clear, get a new party.

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If they need you to clear the encounter, you're right; the DPS are probably undergeared or dead too often to make a difference. You are however helping your DPS out by doing DPS as a healer, which is a good thing; which makes you better than those that don't. If you're slacking as a healer in order to DPS, then you're doing it wrong, but if you're able to do both at the same time; great!

Garuda Extreme comes to mind often when I talk about this. Even post nerf, no other DPS comes close to matching up with Holy AoE DPS; and it takes out those plumes in no time, so that they can concentrate on the Satin Plume. Do you need to use Holy? Of course not. Does it help the group? Yes.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Thanks for taking it out of context. Want to see how ridiculous your posts sound if I do the same?

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Took what out of context? It was a direct quote. You said that. I disagree. The expense isn't worth the so-called benefit for the most part. The stun isn't anything to write home about either.

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Originally Posted by Ashira

If they need you to clear the encounter, you're right; the DPS are probably undergeared or dead too often to make a difference. You are however helping your DPS out by doing DPS as a healer, which is a good thing; which makes you better than those that don't. If you're slacking as a healer in order to DPS, then you're doing it wrong, but if you're able to do both at the same time; great!

Garuda Extreme comes to mind often when I talk about this. Even post nerf, no other DPS comes close to matching up with Holy AoE DPS; and it takes out those plumes in no time, so that they can concentrate on the Satin Plume. Do you need to use Holy? Of course not. Does it help the group? Yes.

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I don't disagree with trying to do all you can. Then again, now that I am leveling a tank and DD, I can state that most healers don't have a clue how to heal (which I can also say just from healing experience with another healer). I just prefer we not give people labels based on the extra extra stuff they do. Soon enough it becomes expected. Fine for me, I do the extra stuff. Bad for community, imo.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Took what out of context? It was a direct quote. You said that. I disagree. The expense isn't worth the so-called benefit for the most part. The stun isn't anything to write home about either.

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You can spam Cures on your tank all day in a WP SR or you can spam Holy and DPS down the mobs faster while not having to worry about the heals because they're all stunned. Take your pick. Or was that not part of "context" to you?

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No. Just no. Stop. Not true. Telling a healer to assume two roles while managing your health and their mana perfectly is not "playing to full potential," and does not compare (not that YOU argued this, but most people do) to the full potential of a DD class doing damage or a tank mitigating it. If you're maxing DD, you're doing it right. If you're holding hate and mitigating damage, you're doing it right. If you're keeping everyone alive (within the confines of their ability to avoid stupid damage), you're doing it right. Doing anything more than that is just an added bonus and should be praised not demanded.

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That's because healer is the only role that has the potential to stand around and not do its job for periods of time. If a tank grabs aggro and just stands there (and assuming he doesn't lose it), he's still tanking the mob. DPS is, well, always DPSing. If people are topped off and not taking much damage, what are you going to do? Just stand there and watch until someone's hp drops to 75%? Note that I'm not talking about all fights as this obviously isn't the case but there are a number of fights that are not healing intensive; one regen and/or one medica II is enough to keep everyone happy. Not only that, but just standing around is boring. As I like to say, healing is boring when no one is dying.

And in case you don't read about the other roles, people bash on the same things. A BLM that doesn't use a proper rotation to maximise DPS will get flak for wasting potential. A tank that's far ahead on aggro and doesn't SS spike damage is wasting potential.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Holy takes out what, like 2% of each mob's health?

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Do you even SR?

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

You can spam Cures on your tank all day in a WP SR or you can spam Holy and DPS down the mobs faster while not having to worry about the heals because they're all stunned. Take your pick. Or was that not part of "context" to you?

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My reply was in context. Holy takes out what, like 2% of each mob's health? I had a group the other day for WP run, and they pulled large, and I was dancing between cures and cleric SS and Holy spam. Drank my mana, and with like 7 holys, I felt like there was no point. Not worth it.

Now, again, Garuda EX plumes, 3x holy = plume down. Fine. Do it then. But that's about the only time. You're better off having solid AOE for those other runs and then casting Stone II/Aero on single targets. Oh, you CAN and SHOULD holy the adds on 2nd WP boss. 3x holy there = most/all adds down. Fine. But that's not the norm.

I still had to dance cures and holys. So, no, 7x holy in a row (a) doesn't effectively mitigate damage with the stun and (b) doesn't do enough damage to get excited about and (c) drinks WAY too much mana. Not worth it IMO.

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Originally Posted by omniwaink

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I believe multiple post already answered you OP

People are learning

sh-- happens you wipe, learn and move on

I DPS and healed from the starter dungeon to Endgame

I made a ton of mistakes while doing it but now I know my limits and how far I can push my MP pool

with that being said don't tell me or anyone how to play a game

I do what I like

This is one of the many reason why most players choose to be DPS instead of tanks or healer roles. Tank or healer gets blamed most of the time for wipes. Doesn't matter what MMO you are playing, tanks and healers are in short demand because of the pressure and the thankless jobs they do.

Everyone makes mistakes, just have to be patient with people while they learn the game and their roles. So what a healer goes OOM, he will learn next fight or next dungeon. But if people belittle a healer for a bad job, well guess what maybe that healer will just quit that role and play another stupid DPS. And we all know that everyone loves to play a low-pressure class as a DPS.

People need to encourage up and coming healers and tanks as well.

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Originally Posted by MagicWand

Doesn't matter what MMO you are playing, tanks and healers are in short demand because of the pressure and the thankless jobs they do.

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I wouldn't call it thankless, I only ever get commendations when I'm playing either a tank or healer.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

That's because healer is the only role that has the potential to stand around and not do its job for periods of time. If a tank grabs aggro and just stands there (and assuming he doesn't lose it), he's still tanking the mob. DPS is, well, always DPSing. If people are topped off and not taking much damage, what are you going to do? Just stand there and watch until someone's hp drops to 75%? Note that I'm not talking about all fights as this obviously isn't the case but there are a number of fights that are not healing intensive; one regen and/or one medica II is enough to keep everyone happy. Not only that, but just standing around is boring. As I like to say, healing is boring when no one is dying.

And in case you don't read about the other roles, people bash on the same things. A BLM that doesn't use a proper rotation to maximise DPS will get flak for wasting potential. A tank that's far ahead on aggro and doesn't SS spike damage is wasting potential.


Do you even SR?

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You kinda reinforced my point. You said if a tank grabs aggro and stands there, he is still tanking (and that's okay). Well, he should be maximizing DPS in your formula to be a full-potential tank. He should also be casting SS and heals on himself (PLD) to be just as pro.

BLM maximizing dps is a part of the BLM role. BLM healing himself and/or tank, and having other useful--but not really mandatory--spells and perks up would make him maximize his potential.

Those are relevant arguments. Doing stuff outside of your general function to "be all you can be." You're simply applying that logic to a healer then giving a tank a grace of being all he can be by keeping aggro and DPS being all they can be by maximizing damage. Not parallel to my counterpoint.

I probably don't SR since I have no idea what that is. Is that bad?

Shop 'round?
Share raspberries?
Send r-rated texts?
Save rabbits?
Store rhubarb?

I must know what this is so I know if I am doing it or need to be.

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Originally Posted by Darksword

Even as a SCH I don't have enough MP to DD consistently in the lower instances. People are just missing too many tools:

>No overgearing
>Tanks lacking cooldowns
>No Lustrate
>Many times capped at 2 Aetherflows

I sometimes get lowish on MP just from healing alone. Trying to DD in anything below 50 is dumb, IMO.

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I can think of literally one instance pre-50 where healing is so intensive that you need to occasionally care about healing: Stone Vigil, and only for certain pulls. Assuming people aren't getting hit by AoE they're not supposed to be getting hit by.

The attitude that SCH DPS pre-50 is so hard is pretty funny, since you should still almost never be running out of MP.

Hello level 50 and ilevel 90 Warrior and 50 Paladin here, healers that use cleric stance and help get everything over with are cool. Well, I hope this helps!

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

I can think of literally one instance pre-50 where healing is so intensive that you need to occasionally care about healing: Stone Vigil, and only for certain pulls. Assuming people aren't getting hit by AoE they're not supposed to be getting hit by.

The attitude that SCH DPS pre-50 is so hard is pretty funny, since you should still almost never be running out of MP.

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You're right that healing is a joke in almost all pre-50 content. However, it is possible to run out of MP, if pulls are coming too quickly for MP regeneration. Of course, the tank and DPS would also be out of TP, because the TP/MP meters regenerate in roughly the same time (not to 100% MP but to a battle-ready level of ~33-50%).

As a tank I am guilty of chain-pulling in low level dungeons to the point where the healer runs OOM even if they are only curing.

So, it is possible, but this situation is not intended or ideal.

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With that said, if a healer (and a SCH, at that) is running out of MP within the course of 2-3 continuous pulls, then something else is horribly, horribly wrong. This is especially so since all Aetherflow charges go towards Energy Drain.

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Originally Posted by MagicWand

This is one of the many reason why most players choose to be DPS instead of tanks or healer roles. Tank or healer gets blamed most of the time for wipes. Doesn't matter what MMO you are playing, tanks and healers are in short demand because of the pressure and the thankless jobs they do.

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This is an issue. The efficiency of a dungeon run depends on DPS knowing how to maximize their damage output. If a tank runs out of abilities or a healer MP, then that can also partially be the fault of ineffective DPS.

Having used Duty Roulette for quite a while now, I've encountered plenty of DPS who will insist on several things:
1. Having the tank mark and number targets, and proceed to burn down enemies one at a time.
2. Sleeping adds.

The reality is, the most time-efficient manner of clearing a group of enemies is to apply DoT abilities (Fracture, Bio, etc) to each enemy and use AoE abilities when there are 3 or more targets. Instead, I consistently encounter DPS who will spam their standard, single-target rotation on one enemy at a time, even though DoT abilities yield more DPS, are more TP-efficient, and draw less enmity.

Dungeons appear to be tutorial zones where a class/job can improve their skill and expose themselves to new mechanics over time. With this in mind, the healer should undergo various degrees of self-improvement as they level within these dungeons.

(Step 1) :: Becoming acquainted with your skills and which buttons they are located (or placing skills by category so they are more easily accessed), particularly the cure/physick button, then gradually improving reaction time when a tank's HP lowers enough for a heal to actually cure for it's full value without wasting MP.

(Step 2) :: Begin making use of macros, "T" key(Target of Target key --> for me it's the "F" key), TAB, Focus targeting, etc. for switching between the tank and it's target (preferably a numbered target), making use of DPS skills like Aero, Bio, Miasma, etc. It's important to keep an eye on the MP gauge during this phase so that a healer can understand just how much MP they use over time when both healing and using DPS skills.

(Step 3) :: Once a healer can: a) gauge damage taken by a tank, b) is accustomed with the button location of their skills, and c) understands their MP usage over time, the healer may then enter cleric stance and begin "focus downing" the numbered targets and then break out of cleric stance when the tank's HP drops below a specific threshold (based on a healer's heal potential), then immediately switch back to cleric stance and begin DPS'ing when it's safe to do so.

(Step 4) :: The next level of improvement involves making use of special skills such as Virus, Repose, Aqua Fluid, Stone (for it's gravity), etc. Such skills can greatly reduce the amount of damage a tank/party receives if they are used at the right times. Take Aqua Fluid in a pre-LV20 dungeon for example. This skill causes a 2-3 second knockback, then a 6 second bind, and followed by a 2-6 second run-back (longer if stone is used prior to knockback). That's 10-17 seconds of the tank not receiving additional damage and is a wonderful form of Crowd Control pre-repose/sleep. This also reduces the number of cures required by the healer, thus lowering over all enmity generation, and also allowing the CNJ/WHM to deal more damage by this same virtue. **I only recommend this particular strategy when there's 3 or more targets on the tank (use this on target number 3 or greater), they are numbered, and the tank has at least flashed/overpowered once; make sure your party knows that you wish to use this strategy at the start, otherwise the tank may break the bind**

(Step 5) :: Consider all the previous steps each time you as the healer encounters a new dungeon or trial. After level 35, dungeon difficult begins to scale up drastically, meaning your comfort zone in one dungeon may not apply in the next (I'm looking at you Stone Vigil/Arum Vale). Take each instance one step at a time and use prior knowledge to improve one's skill further.

These are the steps I process when encountering any form of new content as a healer. Hopefully someone will find this useful.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

More like are you doing only what's on your desk and sitting around for half the day because you technically did what you were supposed to do? Good luck ever getting a promotion.

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LOL, so u likely to get a promotion by cleaning up the floor and fill coffee for ur colleague beside the work on ur desk?? I dont think so.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

The irony is that I'm one of the more casual players who spends more than half the day crafting. Still have 0 myth items, cleared only turn 1 of BCoB, and have almost all of the new primal and dungeon quests still unfinished.

I simply try to do my job well.

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Crafting all day and not getting much things done have nothing to do with casual~
Back to the topic. Having a healer who can and willing to DPS is a gift, not a must. They fulfilled their role, that's good enough. We dont againt what u trying to do with ur character, it's all up to u,but the infamous "I can do this and u should do the same" childish.

hahaha, its a learning proces, i have a macro to cleric stance, aply dots, cleric stance also, as a scholar i use lustrate while in cleric stance and eos keeps healing with the same potency, the title of the trhead shold be, learn to prioritise healing and not dps

oh, i forgot, also theres a tank in another post that said, please dps if u r not healing hahaha, wtf with u guys if u dont like the way a healer plays the role, make your own party, dont expect that people in DF is thinking the same way u r or that u will find always pro people in DF