Thief>Ninja/Dancer Class/Job

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Originally Posted by Duelle

We're talking about one of the mainstay jobs and one of the starter Final Fantasy jobs, to boot.

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Which is why I'd say that they're most definitely going to include it in some way. The question is whether they're going to include it as a job, which is basically going to mean that they're not adding NIN because they're not going to double up on the same fundamental role/archetype, or they include it as a class, which would lead into NIN. We're never going to know until they do it though. It's all conjecture at this point, and it's not like they've really given us much to go on in the interviews (beyond explicitly saying that we're going to get new classes before an expansion comes out and that we should expect it in 2.2 or 2.3).

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Options -or lack thereof- may have a hand in it, but it isn't the sole reason behind people wanting to DPS.

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It's not the sole reason, not that I was even suggesting that, but it has an impact.

Still waiting on rogue/thf/assassin/w.e -_-;

THF should be a job not a base class, imo due to how Thieves essentially (in my brain) get to be Thieves.

Someone who has become a thief has learned over a period of time how to operate as a thief, learning the skills, knowing when to strike, the art of stealth, etc... In regards to this game a level 1 character is an inexperienced noob who knows nothing, so it wouldn't make much sense for a level 1 character to be a thief. They could be a "thug" or whatever (highwayman, cutpurse, Scout, etc...) and at level 30 they get a calling card from the Thieves Guild, which then trains them on the iconic abilities.

Ninja could be the second job that comes from the Thief base class.

One would be DPS and the other could be support. Example: Ninja is essentially a Monk with 1-2 positionally required attack chains but with mid range attack options with shurikens/ thrown weapons and some "ninja magic/ abilities" (ninjutsu/ ninpo) to allow for greater movement in a fight. Thief would cripple the enemy by stealing items/ weapons, planting items that cause debuffs like a poison smoke bomb or something, kidney shots, blind powder, etc... with the positional requirement of "not in the enemy line of sight" (behind or beside) to execute the iconic abilities that thematically require stealth or subtlety. You could reverse the roles and have Ninja have abilities similar to the FFXI ninja with all of the debuff "spells," and have the Thief be a DoT dependant melee job with poison attacks that have positional requirements.

Not to bring it up again, but FFXI did a pretty good job in differentiating between two jobs even though they essentially do the same thing. Example = Dark Knight and Samurai and Warrior. All of them swing big ass two handed weapons to deal damage primarily, but DRK had black magic that augmented their abilities, Warriors just hit harder, and Samurai's were able to use their special moves more often. The same could be done here, where THF and NIN would probably play very similarly to MNK with positional requirements, but it's the small changes that really give the class it's flavor that draws people to it, like a THF with a steal item/ use item ability, NIN with a mid range attack option, stealth being added to either one and having it be a requirement to execute some of their attacks...there are lots of different options to give a similar class enough of a different flavor to attract a different crowd and fulfill a different role.

i have read a lot of nice stuff, but some people seems to miss the main trouble about thief being a jobs... the crystal... the jobs crystal are often used for bring the capacity of lost art.... and exept if i'm stupid...you have a ton of thief in Uld'ah.
people argue about how class must be something generic and that thief is iconic... thief it's iconic because it exist in soo many game.... and why that? because thief are something commons. not ninja, that fall directly into secret and lost art of the armory system.

about the dancer, i see it more coming from the pugilist than thief, mostly because it will be more something made on the body mouvement than being sneaky.

finally, what the thief>Ninja can bring? a debuffing class! actually FF14 ARR suffer of something horrible... the lack of true specialized dps. every dps put debuff and dot and deal damage... indeed, arcanist/summoner/scholar use mostly dot, but we still lack of a class/jobs that will simply cripples the enemy and help the group to kill faster.

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Originally Posted by Katchii

Someone who has become a thief has learned over a period of time how to operate as a thief, learning the skills, knowing when to strike, the art of stealth, etc... In regards to this game a level 1 character is an inexperienced noob who knows nothing, so it wouldn't make much sense for a level 1 character to be a thief. They could be a "thug" or whatever (highwayman, cutpurse, Scout, etc...) and at level 30 they get a calling card from the Thieves Guild, which then trains them on the iconic abilities.

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Your do realize that none of jobs have Guilds, right? Guilds are the sole providence of classes, not jobs, not to mention that Guilds exist as a training ground. The only organizations that any of the jobs tie you to are the Swordsworn (as PLD). Job quests are basically your Guildmaster admitting that you have eclipsed their own skills and have nothing left to teach you and, as such, you need to go in search of great legendary powers. The only *organization* that any job actually joins is the Swordsworn, for the PLD, and that's an explicit organization of "we're the best of the best".

Unless you see a Thieves' Guild as some super secret elite organization that encompasses all of Eorzea and only allows the most famous/infamous thieves into its august ranks (which doesn't really make much sense since a successful thief is one that *isn't* famous) as opposed to a group of experienced thieves who decided that they'd rather not run around the streets anymore and instead decided that it would be better for them to grab up street urchins, teach them the basics of thievery (which, seriously, not as hard as you think), and take a cut off of the top for their own purposes.

Also, you've got a pretty glamorous idea of what a thief is, especially compared to every other class out there. People become thieves and train themselves in what to do all the time. People don't tend to become thieves because they elected to join the brotherhood; people become thieves because they *have* to, mainly because the ratio of risk to reward is skewed heavily towards the risk category unless you've got a lot of experience.

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Not to bring it up again, but FFXI did a pretty good job in differentiating between two jobs even though they essentially do the same thing.

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FFXI is, quite possibly, the worst example you could ever come up with when discussing good game/class design. It's even *more* redundantly stupid given that it ignores how the combat and ability systems in ARR work which is the primary problem that gets brought up when trying to compare the two.

The point is that you *can* differentiate the two, if you're willing to take one or both of them operate in completely different directions than what people actually expect/want out of them, but the simpler and more elegant solution is to just have THF lead into NIN and design them such that NIN is basically THF with kewl ninja magic (they're both stealthy backstabby types that use dirty tricks) tacked onto it, which is what jobs are: the base class with some kewl lore and abilities tacked on top.

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Originally Posted by Katchii

In regards to this game a level 1 character is an inexperienced noob who knows nothing, so it wouldn't make much sense for a level 1 character to be a thief.

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you realize that the iconic skill for the thief is...steal? more important something that bother me a looooot, Higwayman, cutpurse, thug.... are simply another name for thief.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

FFXI is, quite possibly, the worst example you could ever come up with when discussing good game/class design. It's even *more* redundantly stupid given that it ignores how the combat and ability systems in ARR work which is the primary problem that gets brought up when trying to compare the two.

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As I've said before, regardless of what someone's opinion of FFXI is, it still exists as a proof of concept that THF and NIN can be thematically and functionally different from each other; THF doesn't have to be an inferior NIN, and NIN doesn't have to be a superior THF. Obviously, it would be foolish to say that the abilites of those classes from XI should be carried over into XIV, because the combat systems are so vastly different from each other; ergo, the task of differentiating the two would go to the people who actually get paid to do this kind of thing and are probably a lot more creative about it than you or I.

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The point is that you *can* differentiate the two, if you're willing to take one or both of them operate in completely different directions than what people actually expect/want out of them

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Let's be fair, here. BRD comes out of ARC, which is something I doubt anyone saw coming, and SMN comes from a DoT-focused class (SCH I can't use as an example, since SCH really doesn't have an identity like BRD or SMN). It's very reasonable to have jobs that don't quite function as they've always done, and still have it work.

the trouble is that you are too focus on FF11...
thief are commons in Eorzea... they are far to be a lost art... people can argue for hours... but you have a high probability that thief will be a class more than a jobs... (rogue is the same thing only with a different name)
what you will do as class for thief? scout? ohh great you use dagger and learn to be elusive and.... that all... you need to bring mechanic in a class... and personally i don't see what can bring Thief as jobs... steal? we can't steal item or gils from monster or it will be a huge trouble for them economy. sneak... no sneak nor invisibility for the player. (outside the one gained in the quest for do it) if you look like this...the thief will be a really really poor choice as jobs... don't hope too for treasure hunter passive, since the treasure hunter it's a mini game. as i see it... the thief don't have a lot for him.

finally, this is final fantasy 14, not final fantasy 11-2...

I say no to del being used as the healing stat.

If arcanist are forced to choose between Scholar or summoner then all other classes who spawn more than one job also better have to make similar Sacrifices.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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Scout or Rogue (or Performer, in the case of the idea I had); both are terms I've seen thrown around when it comes to a class for the THF job. The idea is that the class is your general training in your combat style, while your job is more your specialized training (typically given by joining an exclusive organization). You could be a Rogue who does some of the typical thief things, but then get invited into the by-invitation-only group of Thieves, where you get specialized and/or expanded training.

Thematics aside, I did say that it'd be foolish to try and straight-port the abilities and traits from XI and bring it into XIV; the combat systems are just too different from each other to make it work. Making abilities and traits that work and still retaining the feel and flavor of the classic FF job would be a task given to the developers, people who get paid to do these kinds of things and are probably a LOT more creative about it than us.

the trouble about the thief as jobs is the lack of new capacity that will not look like a thing ninja will use....
outside of the steal capacity, thief haven't generally a lot of stuff.

bravely default one of the most recent game using the jobs system from SE, the thief as action have 5 skill... all the rest is passive.
- steal, you obviously steal an item
- life steal, you steal hp
- mug, you steal an item while attacking (25%)
- Godspeed strike, you attack really fast (like a ninja) an enemy
- shake down, steal item at every enemy (25%)

indeed bravely default is not called final fantasy but still is part of it and we can argue that it's a solo game. but you can check every Final Fantasy before, that about what the thief get each time... the class is here for age, but it's more because it's something commons... do it deserve it own jobs in FF14 ARR? no, clearly no. since we can't steal stuff nor gil, the only stealing left are HP (already used by the marauder and dragoon) or steal stats (it will lead to some trouble, but still possible)

it's why i think that the thief have no place as jobs... it will have no mechanic really interesting or unique.... and finally it don't enter in the lore of the jobs crystal that something extremely rare. (ok not that rare with the number of player hahaha)

ps: we can argue too that warrior is something commons, but it's more a mix between a berserker and a viking more than a warrior.

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ps: we can argue too that warrior is something commons, but it's more a mix between a berserker and a viking more than a warrior.

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You can't argue Warrior since Warrior only existed in a single game prior to FFXIV; FFXI. Viking is the same only existed in one game altogether.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

You can't argue Warrior since Warrior only existed in a single game prior to FFXIV; FFXI. Viking is the same only existed in one game altogether.

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Final fantasy 1, 3, 9, 10-2, 11, 12 revenant wing and naturally 14
warrior is too in Final fantasy tactics advance, A2
and a couple of other final fantasy game... (like dimension)

before post something be sure of it

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Warrior_%28Job%29


ps: while checking for the warrior (i prefer double check before post something) i have notice that the ninja is more often present than the thief in the Final Fantasy games

Okay, I've had this kicking around in my head for a while now, so I just figured I'd drop my idea for how Thief could be a viable Job rather than a base class, partly because if Thief winds up being relegated to something I forget all about the instant I hit level 30, I'm probably going to wind up breaking something.

So, with that said, here's my idea, starting with how I think Steal would be set up:

Steal: Deals mild damage and is then replaced by another ability, appropriate to the target (IE, a bit of slime from a Flan, a handful of feathers from a Raptor or Bird, perhaps a buffing potion from a humanoid enemy). This ability can be used once, and is only available until Steal's internal cooldown ends, but either damages and/or debuffs the enemy or heals and/or buffs you. Whether the ability is used or not, Steal has a 1 minute cooldown. May be traited to give the temporary ability gained a second use or something.

With that taken care of, the Thief's job abilities:
Sneak Attack: Stance that gives most (if not all) On-GCD abilities positional requirements for extra damage.
Mug: Moderate damage, and does something related to Steal. It may instantly end the cooldown, it may have a chance to provide a weaker version of the stolen 'item', it might boost the power of Steal's next 'replacement'. I might actually come back to this later, if I feel like it. 2.5 minute cooldown.
Steal Heart: Target is CC'd. Ideally, this would inflict Charm or Confusion, but it could also just be a glorified Sleep, the idea being that it's something to keep unwanted adds out of a fight for a while, provided the fight mechanics allow that. If it causes Charm or Confusion, it'd have a 2-3 minute cooldown. If it causes sleep, no cooldown, just like Sleep and Repose.
Steal Essence: Target deals 10% less damage while the user deals 10% more damage, both effects decaying over the ability's duration. Probably a 3-3.5 minute cooldown.
Trick Attack: The next ability (specifically the next ability, as in it won't activate if you make an auto-attack between using TA and whatever your massive damage attack is) deals double damage OR is a guaranteed crit. Not really sure how that'd work, but if used properly would give a sizeable spike of damage. Probably a 3.5-5 minute cooldown, depending on how big the boost is.

Random notes:
-The base class would be something that can deal lots of little hits, but is also capable of throwing out the occasional large spike of damage.
-Steal is intended to work in such a manner that basically nothing you get from it is useless, won't ruin the economy by letting people get rare drops more easily, and is at least semi-tactical in its use.
-Steal Essence comes from me seeing people trying to figure out how to make Steal Aura relevant. In the end, Steal Aura is just a combination Debuff/Buff, right? Well, that's what Steal Essence does.
-Steal Heart was at one-and-the-same-time both the most annoying and the most awesome ability Thieves had in Final Fantasy Tactics, particularly when it managed to stick on a powerful opponent. I just think it'd be fun to see this ability come back in FFXIV...
-As you can probably tell, Thief is sort-kinda a "Support DPS" class, though less on the support side, considering most of its skills are intended to support itself, though Steal/Mug, Steal Heart, and Steal Essence do have the side-effect of benefiting the group as a whole, obviously.
-If I ever come back and refine this line-up of skills, it'll probably be with a full line-up of skills and traits for the base class too, and maybe even a second Job, which I doubt will be Ninja.

Anyway, there you have it. My 10-minute idea for how Thief could be a relevant job and not be demoted to "Class" status. Comment, criticize, whatever you want to do. This was just my two cents on this subject.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

ps: while checking for the warrior (i prefer double check before post something) i have notice that the ninja is more often present than the thief in the Final Fantasy games

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Maybe I'm completely misinterpreting the implication here (if any exists at all, and if none exists I apologies if I sound like a dick), but I really hope you're not suggesting that a job is only worthy of being a job and not a class in XIV because it meets some minimum number of previous titles it's showed up in. If such a criteria existed, Scholar would never have been picked for the healer class attached to Arcanist, as Scholar is relatively unknown compared to the Summoner, or White Mage, or Warrior.

I'm still a firm believer that Thief, as one of the most iconic jobs in the franchise, deserves to be a job and not a class. I've got nothing against Ninjas or the people that want them in the game, and I have hope that the developers are smart and creative enough that they can include both of these jobs, and not toss Thief under the bus by making it a class.

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Originally Posted by Nahara

I'm still a firm believer that Thief, as one of the most iconic jobs in the franchise, deserves to be a job and not a class. I've got nothing against Ninjas or the people that want them in the game, and I have hope that the developers are smart and creative enough that they can include both of these jobs, and not toss Thief under the bus by making it a class.

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The question arises once again: Do we want overlapping designs or not?

We don't have a specific niche to hide THF in (enmity transfer and lolTreasure Hunter), so your options are pretty much limited to standard MMO dagger class (WoW's Rogue class and Rift's Bladedancer soul would be excellent starting points for THF gameplay, IMO). Ninja, meanwhile, would have to be designed as DPS as well, and that's not even taking limits placed by their aesthetic. My gut tells me NIN is going to sprout from PGL; no way in hell they have PGL/MNK the Fuuma set and not keep that in mind.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The reason that it doesn't "deserve" to be a job is that THF and NIN are the same exact archetype: they're the stealthy, backstabby archetype. NIN might have some minor mystical associations, but, honestly, they're really not that different.

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you've never played FFXI, have you? Most ppl that want thf back is because of how awesome they were in ffxi. Also, nin and thf were very different in ffxi.

@nahara:
no, i was only surprise, i had always think the inverse actually ^^.

@duelle:
about the fuuma armor, i will only say this... one armor can be wear by more than one class and jobs. the healer, dd caster and tank are already using the same armor.

@neph:
ninja was really different because of how the player have used the class, at the base the dev never intended to make it a tank, that the player that have make it a tank. and i seriously hope to not see the ninja as tank... same thief was able to use sneak and steal or treasure hunter passive, but all of this haven't them place in FF14, mostly because the game are totally different.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The question arises once again: Do we want overlapping designs or not?

We don't have a specific niche to hide THF in (enmity transfer and lolTreasure Hunter), so your options are pretty much limited to standard MMO dagger class (WoW's Rogue class and Rift's Bladedancer soul would be excellent starting points for THF gameplay, IMO). Ninja, meanwhile, would have to be designed as DPS as well, and that's not even taking limits placed by their aesthetic. My gut tells me NIN is going to sprout from PGL; no way in hell they have PGL/MNK the Fuuma set and not keep that in mind.

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Keep in mind that Yoshida has already told of plans to introduce classes/jobs which serve in multiple roles as hybrid jobs. It doesn't have to be the case that a Job is either a healer, tank or DPS, but can fulfil more than 1 role depending on the situation. With that in mind, it's quite possible that future Jobs will overlap with current ones (and new ones) in their ability set/roles.

Here's the quote from the 2.1 patch interview (emphasis mine):

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Will it be divided up by light party/full party content?

Yoshida: Apart from the Crystal Tower which is alliance content, we plan for endgame content to be focused on a unit of eight players. For example, gathering Allagan Tomestones is good for a light party, but I feel like eight players is the smallest unit that should take on strong bosses.

Any reason in particular that you feel that way?

Yoshida: Yes, we want to make sure that there is space in the party for at least two people of each role. 4-6 players is a number which has been used frequently in recent MMOs, but I stuck with the figure of eight people since back in the design stage for the aforementioned reasons. You can have two each of healer and tank and four DPS in the present situation. Once we add the hybrid role (which serves multiple roles), you'll be able to have two players from each role, for a total of 8 people.

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Source

Perhaps that will give some means to further the discussion here.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

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Originally Posted by Exstal

You can't argue Warrior since Warrior only existed in a single game prior to FFXIV; FFXI. Viking is the same only existed in one game altogether.

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Final fantasy 1, 3, 9, 10-2, 11, 12 revenant wing and naturally 14
warrior is too in Final fantasy tactics advance, A2
and a couple of other final fantasy game... (like dimension)

before post something be sure of it

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Warrior_%28Job%29


ps: while checking for the warrior (i prefer double check before post something) i have notice that the ninja is more often present than the thief in the Final Fantasy games

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FFI: Warrior is actually named Fighter
FFIII: Warrior is actually named Fighter
FFIX: Steiner is a Knight
FFX-2: I missed this completely
FFXI: Given example
FFXII-rev wings: I've never even heard of this game
FFXIV: We know this

Just because it says "Warrior" doesn't make it so. Remember, it's based off what the >Japanese< call it. English tends to just take whatever is given to them and make it their own. So look at the original to see which is most correct. That being said, Viking only existed in a single game. FFXIV Warrior is closest to Beserker minus the only using attack.

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Originally Posted by Neph

you've never played FFXI, have you? Most ppl that want thf back is because of how awesome they were in ffxi. Also, nin and thf were very different in ffxi.

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FFXI was a bad game and should not be used as a basis for argument.

well i will not debat on the translation of the name between japanese, english and french
especially when the name in japanese was sen'shi せんし (that don't means fighter either) for final fantasy 1 and 3.

even the name of the class, in final fantasy 14 ARR, in japanese don't look like the one we use in english.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

well i will not debat on the translation of the name between japanese, english and french
especially when the name in japanese was sen'shi せんし (that don't means fighter either) for final fantasy 1 and 3.

even the name of the class, in final fantasy 14 ARR, in japanese don't look like the one we use in english.

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戦士 / せんし / senshi - war profession, commonly known as "Soldier". Warrior just "looks" fierce. Which, based on my opinion, is why it's named as such.

But here's the English definition of Warrior

- a brave or experienced soldier or fighter.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

But here's the English definition of Warrior

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Gogo synonyms!

Translation variations as well as the preferences of translators concerning choice of synonyms for a given word are exactly why you *can't* look at the name of a class in order to gauge what "class" it actually fulfills. You have to look at what the class/character actually does. WAR/warrior/fighter is a major deviation from the traditional FF mold, mainly because, in the mainline FF-series, you're not really *supposed* to have a large number of options for swinging your sword at your opponent (there's just "Attack" and maybe a few largely useless gimmick attacks); if you only looked for explicit "job" jobs to bring in, there wouldn't *be* a WAR in ARR because there isn't really a strong model for a purely martial, neutrally-themed (i.e. not samurai) fighter. The number of "real" examples of a WAR that you could find aren't really all that great (especially since a lot of them actually cover the ground that GLD and PLD are intended to cover). WAR really only exists because there needed to be a durable tank class for those people that *didn't* want to be a PLD and "angry guy with a big axe" is a common enough archetype in MMOs that it's perfectly fine to ignore whatever precedence the FF series laid previously.

Rather than looking at the names, you need to look at the actual capabilities of a given class/character. There are no real differences between Archer and Ranger; it doesn't matter *what* it was named because Archer does everything that Ranger has ever historically done (and, honestly, if you look at what ARC gets, it actually has more in common with the variants called Ranger than it does with those called Archer). In FFIX, Steiner wasn't a WAR or a PLD explicitly; he was a melange of pretty much every "knight" style class before (remember, he had Magic Sword, which is Mystic Knight, in addition to Sword Arts, which encompassed Dark Knight and a whole slew of other knight models, and was the best user of Cover which has been the PLD mainstay) so trying to choose a single class to refer to him as is an exercise in futility. Furthermore, it's not like you can just bring in that class's schtick exactly as it's implemented traditionally: THM uses its magic in a manner completely unique to the series because, rather than being a super powerful option you use in a resource-limited manner, it's the mainstay damage mechanism of an entire class (and, as such, shouldn't be as boring as just using whichever elemental spell the target is weakest against repeatedly).

It's more important to look at the defining ability of a historical job and look at how it could be applied *effectively* in an MMO, and, honestly, if the class's gimmick doesn't really work in an MMO (like Steal or Blue Magic), you've got to change it so that it does work (e.g. having Steal provide something other than additional loot or having Blue Magic be acquired in the same way as every other ability in the game). Either that, or you've got to abandon the historical convention entirely and go in a completely different direction that fits the theme of the class (like what was done with WAR).

I am really really hoping they add Samurai. It was one of my favorite classes in XI. There were theory crafters who practically made that job a monster of a class.

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Originally Posted by Themis

Here's the quote from the 2.1 patch interview (emphasis mine):

Source

Perhaps that will give some means to further the discussion here.

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And I'll continue to call that a mistranslation since the sentence in question starts with もし and ends with したら, which is a really long way of saying "if" in Japanese. Rather than "once we add hybrids as a role" being "if we add hybrids as a role".

Nevermind the mess it would make of party dynamics if they were to do something that stupid.

I'm also in the Thief gets it's own job boats. And no, they don't have to overlap so much theyre near identical. All it takes is some thought

1 - Thief could steal TP, HP, MP, aggro, etc. Doesn't have to be items. Thief and Ninja could be drastically different, stem from different archetypes/classes (I don't know much about weaponry, but wouldn't a Ninja be more apt to use like a pair of blunt objects like MNKs do rather than dagger like a THF would?) and do very different things.

2 - I think an evasion tank could work as long as you combine it with a parry tank. i.e. have the tank stance Parry EVERY attack and increase the % you parry to make the eHP PLD/WAR equivilent, then have all its "CD" abilities be evasion based. The main one being something like Kitru's Ninja had in a 3-5sec ability with a 30s CD that evades and counters (with extra enmity) every attack in that time frame. Any point that says "They can't do that because of Game_Mechanic_08" is invalid because they can break the rules of the game by changing it any time they want, and said that they would previously (i.e. changing enmity modifiers on tank classes to turn them to DPS). And don't hyperbole the crap out of that statement that I was using rhetorically, obviously they can't change certain things, but within reason they can do whatever they would like to do.

3. Corsair into Thief AND Muskateer.... eh? eh? EH!?

I'm seeing a lot of Lancer/Dragoon in the Thief/Ninja transition. I don't know if this was intentional or not.

The problem that comes up to me is, why bother making a copy of Lancer/Dragoon if Lancer/Dragoon already exists? I'm all for Thief (even that weird idea that made it a DoL class!), but this feels rather redundant.

My suggestion would be to move away from the positional DPS mechanic (Sacrilige! I know!) and more into a DoT heavy design like Arcanist. By focusing the class on the application and manipulation of DoTs you create something that is all together unique among the melee dps.

For flavor. I might also include some "teleport" style sneak attacks. Attacks where you instantly move behind your target and backstab them for enhanced dmg. throw in some debuffs to go with the DoTs and you've got something that feels very different.

As for Dancer. Assuming this is to be a melee range healer I think you'd do well to make it more passive than direct. The players attention with melee attacks, combos, DoTs and dodging is going to be taxed pretty heavily with target switching and healing thrown in. So having a "Regen Dance" that restores the groups HP every X seconds would fit well.

I would be remiss from mentioning though, that such a design would actually work better coming off pugilist than Thief/Lancer. The ability to enhance the effectiveness of Dances through stacking of Greased Ligtning and usage of Mantra fits a bit more. I didn't originally think of that connection, it just formed in my mind as I thought of ways to make a Dancer healer work in a melee setting.

I'd also suggest two different mechanics playing together for Dancer. Dances, which are constant effects, and "flourishes" which are instant one time enhancements to the Dances. For instance, a Dance that is Regening hp and a flourish that cures debuffs. One could actually change the effect of flourishes depending on which dance was active (if multiple dances were present and mutually exclusive), allowing the 5 job abilities to have a bit more diversity than one might initially think.

Something to hopefully help. Cheers.

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Originally Posted by Tzain

My suggestion would be to move away from the positional DPS mechanic (Sacrilige! I know!) and more into a DoT heavy design like Arcanist. By focusing the class on the application and manipulation of DoTs you create something that is all together unique among the melee dps.

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It's pretty apparent that the developers want the melee "gimmick" to be positional DPS, given how MNK and DRG, both classes that have *never* been positional in any other game or FF series, are positional DPS. The rogue/thief type has almost always been positional so I think it'd be really weird if they went away from that. As to the DoTs and DoT manipulation, I tried to do that with Eviscerate (it's a lot like Fester), though I think it might be interesting to see some further manipulation with Master Thievery (possibly regaining 1 stack of Ill-gotten Gains for each of your DoTs on the target; it fits with the "thievery" part of the name as well).

I think it should be mentioned, on top of this, that I'm adding an extra resource to juggle/manage, which is something that neither MNK nor DRG has to deal with.

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For flavor. I might also include some "teleport" style sneak attacks. Attacks where you instantly move behind your target and backstab them for enhanced dmg.

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I could see putting something like that on Master Thievery, but I couldn't really see it being put on anything else since it's more of a CD attack/utility and, unless I increase the number of abilities (which is probably fine; Pilfer and Gil Toss would probably best be gained at the same level, which would allow for an 18th ability) there's not space for it.

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As for Dancer. Assuming this is to be a melee range healer I think you'd do well to make it more passive than direct.

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It's not supposed to be a melee range healer. The only abilities that are melee ranged are those gained from THF, and, even then, those abilities that are required for healing purposes are ranged (Pilfer becomes a 20y range attack with Enhanced Pilfer). The only time that a DNC would be in melee would be if they are electing to attack instead of heal, which is effectively the same as a SCH/WHM turning on Cleric Stance. DNC is intended to operate at range because all of its heals are ranged (and they still have cast times); it's only supposed to close during those times when the other healers would be turning CS on.

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Dances, which are constant effects, and "flourishes" which are instant one time enhancements to the Dances.

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The only way you'd get dances as constant effects is if the class were turned into DPS/support like BRD instead of an actual healing class. There would need to be multiple dances to justify having them and DNC is *already* heavily restricted on the number of actual healing abilities. Healers have a very specific list of requirements and, no matter how you set it up, you'd run out of abilities *way* too quickly in order to cover those required functionalities. Furthermore, your flourish idea is dependent upon the DNC actively attacking as part of its primary role rather than actually healing full time, which is not what it is designed to do, nor would it be a balanced construct because you'd be getting a healer *and* a DPS whereas the other healers are simply healers (even if it was at a limited amount, you'd still be getting a constant source of damage). On top of this, by using your dances and flourishes, *everything* would become an AoE which is simply terrible for a healer as it becomes underpowered or overpowered (not to mention that some stuff just couldn't be implemented as such, like a rez or cleanse). If you elected to have certain effects automatically choose targets (re: targets person with lowest hp), you end up having a healer where you never have to pay attention to healing. It plays exactly like a DPS and gives the full benefit of healing without the player actually having to heal.

Basically, what you're suggesting is a melee BRD, with dances replacing songs, which is not what I designed nor is it what I would want DNC to be. Even then, if it *were* a melee BRD, it would be straight DPS and not a healer because the entire construct that you're going for doesn't work for a healer.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

1 - Thief could steal TP, HP, MP, aggro, etc. Doesn't have to be items.

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Enemies don't have TP or MP so the only things that a THF would be able to "steal" would be HP (which is just a 100% drain attack), which is just copying and giving a new face to abilities like Bloodbath and Life Surge. Stealing MP would be basically worthless as well since you need to be able to *use* whatever you're stealing. Stealing aggro would be completely worthless given the enmity model the game uses (and I've pointed this out earlier in the thread). Seriously, go read the thread.

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Thief and Ninja could be drastically different, stem from different archetypes/classes (I don't know much about weaponry, but wouldn't a Ninja be more apt to use like a pair of blunt objects like MNKs do rather than dagger like a THF would?) and do very different things.

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Once again, read the thread. We get into the entire discussion of why THF and NIN can't be done as completely different archetypes without making one or the other end up as something completely and totally different from what players would expect. The devs are only going to add classes/jobs to fill in where an existing niche isn't fulfilled. NIN and THF are both sneaky, backstabby, light weapon using classes; they fill the same niche within the game so adding one largely precludes the other unless you want to turn one into something the deviates from the core archetype (like turning NIN into a caster that uses ninja magic and is a ranged attacker).

Why do you think that a NIN would use fist weapons? In the entire FF series, NIN uses *swords* and daggers, not unarmed combat. Even in real life, ninjitsu focused *way* more on weapon use than unarmed combat.

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2 - I think an evasion tank could work as long as you combine it with a parry tank.

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We're not talking tanks here, so I'm not sure why you bring it up. Yoshi-P has explicitly said that it was absurd for ninja to be a tank in FFXI and that he will never do anything of the kind in this game. I get into the feasibility of design concerning an evasion tank here.

Everyone keeps thinking the new jobs/classes will be based off how they worked in Final Fantasy 11. Which is why it's assumed that Dark Knights will use Scythes, and Dancers will be healers, etc etc etc

You have to look at final fantasy as a whole, not by just one game. Dancers in all the other final fantasys were melee/front lines debuffers. Bards were always range/back row buffers. Look now at FF 14.. Bards are technically Back room/range buffers. I think dancers will be just like the genre uses them as in the past, melee debuffers. They will probably be based off monk, use fists as their weapons (again remember they used fists, fans, and purses as weapons in other games) and have the ability to enter dance steps/forms (like greased lighting and others monk does) and those forms will effect the monsters in a certain range from the dancer with debuffs, maybe slow, or 10% less damage, or paralyze.. and they only get these benefits if they can stay in the form.

Dark Knights, in 11 used scythes, in final fantasy x-2 used 2 handed swords, in final fantasy 4 sword and shield, final fantasy 3 (ds version) also sword and shield, I can't remember the remake of FFT what they used, but I know it wasn't scythes. So why is everyone so sure it HAS to be scythes. Odds are, dark knights will be sword and shield based off gladiator so they are opposite of paladins which is what the class is always represnted as, the opposite of light(paladin) and will be the gladiator dps class.

As for thief, I see it coming out in the next expansion as a new base class (probably from Ul'dah) as a dagger melee/stealth class (Yoshi stated he wants a stealth class), now remember WoW, their Rogue class can and does steal, but it's usually tidbits of gil and other worthless items, so odds are the thief will do the same here, they will probably also be a class does bleed effects, dual-wield daggers, raises evasion and party evasion, and maybe increase party drop/loot rate by 1%. They will probably also has the job class ninja based off them, and still be a dagger/short dagger/short sword fighter but now have access to some ninja spells, probably a range attack/immoblize attack (like say a smoke bomb for cc), but for a 2nd job, I haven't thought of one yet (possibly Samurai, but not sure how that will work out just yet)

There is of course other jobs, like Red Mage, Blue Mage(sorry I don't see them using Blue Mage), Sage, Time Mage(which actually could be 2nd job to Con, but make it a hot healer or even a dps healer? I had an idea of how to make it work based of Conjuror dealing with casting cure spells on the mob to do damage and the amount of damage you cause with them directly heals a party member, but haven't figured out how to make it work without making it overpowered.) and let's not forget Geomancers.. there are a lot of classes and jobs out there.. it's just how to make it work in this game in a 4 person party system without making another job obsolete... they need to make sure that the next healing class doesn't make sch or whm worthless.

if it had to come down to it, i'd much rather see a thief job and never see ninja since i just prefer the aesthetic of being a thief

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Originally Posted by Kitru

It's pretty apparent that the developers want the melee "gimmick" to be positional DPS, given how MNK and DRG, both classes that have *never* been positional in any other game or FF series, are positional DPS. The rogue/thief type has almost always been positional so I think it'd be really weird if they went away from that. As to the DoTs and DoT manipulation, I tried to do that with Eviscerate (it's a lot like Fester), though I think it might be interesting to see some further manipulation with Master Thievery (possibly regaining 1 stack of Ill-gotten Gains for each of your DoTs on the target; it fits with the "thievery" part of the name as well).

I think it should be mentioned, on top of this, that I'm adding an extra resource to juggle/manage, which is something that neither MNK nor DRG has to deal with.

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I didn't explain what I meant very well, that's on me. After some finetuning of the suggestion I figure I'd put them together in a way that makes a bit more sense for what I was trying to say.

3. Quick stab - 150 potency

4. Flurry - Flurry: 100 potency
Flank bonus: increase attack speed by 10% for 12 seconds
Combo Action: Quick Stab
Combo Bonus: 190 potency

6. Cheap shot: 100 Potency
Combo action: Flurry
Combo Bonus: 275 potency, X% chance of adding 1 Ill gotten gains
*What I wanted to do here was have a "main solo" combo which feeds into a way to apply DoTs at your desire.(see gil toss) when playing solo.

5. Backstab: 100 Potency
Back Bonus: Damage over Time, 25 Potency, Duration 18 seconds

7. Ambush: 100 potency
Flank Bonus: Reduce Target's resistance to piercing dmg by 10% for 18 seconds

8. Eviscerate: 100 potency
Back bonus: 75 additional potency for each Ambush, Backstab, and hemorrhage on the target. 20 sec cooldown.

9. Hemorrhage: 100 potency
Flank bonus: 35 potency, 18 second duration

12. Hamstring: 50 potency
Back bonus: 50% heavy, 15 potency, 18 seconds duration

*I've moved the DoT applications into being positionals, but not combos. I increased the durations to work more with solo play, but it's depending on the Ill gotten gains/Gil toss mechanic if they need to be tuned. I also think that upping the DOT potency and decreasing the combo potency may be valid.

10. Gil Toss: Off-GCD, doubles the duration of the next attack performed, consumes ill-gotten gains (1). Binds the target in the direction it currently is facing for 5 seconds.
*big deal right? The idea is that the gil toss is a distraction. It, similar to holmgang, locks the target in one direction allowing the thief to move to the flank or back for a positional.

Hope that makes what I was saying make a bit more sense.

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Originally Posted by Tzain

7. Ambush: 100 potency
Flank Bonus: reduce target's resistance to periodic damage by 10% for 30 seconds.
*I didn't think the overlap/compound effect of Thief + Lancer was healthy for balance. So upping the DoT dmg of anyone who uses one is a similar, yet different approach.

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The issue I see with this is that it benefits *too many* classes. The current resistance debuffs work because they only affect 2 classes: WAR only affects PLD and WAR, DRG only affects BRD and DRG, MNK only affects MNK, BRD only affects BLM and SMN (and, even then, it's of limited uptime), though this could *feasibly* be modified by adding "bleeding resistance" to the existing physical damage type suite that affects abilities like Fracture, Chaos Thrust, and Phlebotomize in addition to the THF DoTs. If the resistance weren't added, because there isn't a resistance attribute to tweak, it would need to be reworded as "increases damage the target takes from periodic effects by 10%".

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8. Eviscerate: 100 potency
Back bonus: 75 additional potency for each Ambush, Backstab, Katon, and hemorrhage on the target. (trait: Enhanced Eviscerate - Eviscerate has a X% chance to refresh DoT effects on target. Replaces Enhanced Hemorrhage)

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I wouldn't include Katon in the list (because it's a magic/fire DoT, not a bleeding DoT so it's not thematically appropriate) and including Ambush was actually a typo. I meant to put Cheap Shot there, since it was basically supposed to be a physical version of Fester. I have mixed feelings about duration reset procs which is why I didn't include it.

Also, I put Eviscerate as a t3 combo ability for a reason. The way you've got it written, all you'd do is apply DoTs (do t2 combo up to Flurry) then spam Eviscerate.

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*I've moved the DoT applications into being positionals, but not combos. I increased the durations to work more with solo play, but it's depending on the Ill gotten gains/Gil toss mechanic if they need to be tuned. I also think that upping the DOT potency and decreasing the combo potency may be valid.

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DoTs as positionals would render those abilities basically worthless while soloing which I was explicitly trying to avoid. None of the combos would be forbidden while soloing (because you can't do positionals while you have aggro on something). Your set up would basically have THF spamming your Cheap Shot combo over and over and over again because they wouldn't be able to actually *get* value from anything else. It's important to have positionals act as *bonuses*, not gatekeepers, because, if you have them act as gatekeepers, it simply isn't fun. Positional benefits should be a bonus for good play, not a requirement to actually get to play the class in the first place.

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10. Gil Toss: Off-GCD, doubles the potency of the next attack performed, consumes ill-gotten gains (1). Binds the target in the direction it currently is facing for 5 seconds.
*big deal right? The idea is that the gil toss is a distraction. It, similar to holmgang, locks the target in one direction allowing the thief to move to the flank or back for a positional. The double potency is to really crank up those positional DoTs. The effect is not subject to diminishing returns, but rarely works on group boss content depending on balance. The Double Potency on the other hand, works regardless.

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That would basically render Katon redundant while also being insanely powerful. It's set as an off-GCD attack for a reason: it's the *simple* Ill-gotten Gains consumer. It has a vanilla effects because it's supposed to have a vanilla effect. It's like Bane for ACN: it's not the ultra-amazing one that you have to wait until you get your job to get.

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The only remaining piece that I'd really like to see is a self heal. Melee DPS does well to have some recovery option. I think a way of turning DoT periodic dmg into a source of self healing would be fitting. like a counterpoint to Bloodbath. Maybe on Master Thievery?

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NIN would get Second Wind from PGL (it's a level 8 ability so you can't *not* have available). I don't see loading more functionality on Master Thievery as a particularly good idea. It's supposed to be a (big) burst damage IGG consumer (should probably increase it to 150 potency per, since, right now, it's no different than just chain dumping 3 Gil Tosses in a row). I could feasibly see reducing the baseline CD on Flee to 45 seconds and having Improved Flee heal you for 20% of your max hp or something similar. If it's *absolutely* needed for NIN/THF to have some kind of self-heal function natively, I could see getting rid of Fuujin (since Spinning Strike already serves as an acceptable AoE) and replacing it with a self heal (with an appropriate ninjitsu name) or adding a self-heal that consumes a stack of IGG (since the class should probably have 18 abilities so that you get 2 abilities at the level you get Pilfer such that it's not a worthless ability until you get your second).

I do think that an 18th ability is needed thanks to Pilfer basically *needing* to be provided at the same level as Gil Toss, but I'm not sure what is needed. I'd be open to ideas, possibly something on a long CD instantly provides you with 3 stacks of IGG immediately or an outright crit buff so that THF/NIN doesn't have to rely *solely* upon a CC ability for its +crit functionality.

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When looking at Ninja, I don't think any major changes are needed, though I also think that it's going to be constantly starved for ill gotten gains depending on how fast they generate. It may be worth exploring increasing the number of ill gotten gains you can store. Say it starts off with 2 and works it's way up to 6? Something to consider.

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I think you're underestimating how valuable Mug is going to be. DoTs and auto-attacks are both capable of scoring a critical hit. Given the sheer number of DoTs applied and the super fast auto-attack rate that THF/NIN is going to have (1.5 sec base attack speed brought down to 1.2 with Flurry), you're going to get a *lot* of chances at Mug proccing. With 3 DoTs ticking (Katon, Cheap Shot, Hemorrhage) every 3 seconds, a 2 sec GCD (2.5 * .8), and a 1.2 sec auto-attack speed (1.5 * .8), you're going to be averaging 5.83 attacks per (normal 2.5 sec) GCD. With a 20% crit rate (which is likely going to be higher with endgame stacking of crit rate) and Mug's 20% proc rate, you're going to be averaging one "free" IGG stack every 10.7 seconds. NIN also gets access to Internal Release, which is a 25% uptime 10% crit chance increase. Pilfer is only intended to provide "starter" stacks, and I've debated having it not trigger combat so that you can "preload" yourself with 3 stacks if you take the time. Mug is going to be your real IGG generator.

Edited previous post to keep things tidy.

I decreased the base duration of the DoTs (which I had previously extended) and changed Gil Toss to extend the attacks duration rather than double the potency. Should balance it out. (I still think an off GCD 120 potency has the potential to be crazy overpowered).

I reverted my change to Ambush, and removed the refresh effect from eviscerate. You're right. It's not needed. I did add a cooldown to it to avoid spamming. (which may be a bit on the long side)

I personally want Ninja to be a ranged DD job that throws kunai knives and other bladed weapons kind of how Thancred does in that one cutscene, and Thief to be a melee dagger backstab/steal job. I usually see Ninja's throwing things more than fighting close up in FF games, and their specialty in many games was the "Throw" ability (and sometimes their most powerful).

http://youtu.be/l7hPoZYv8qE?t=4m10s

This cutscene in FFXIV in particular. After seeing this I was hoping Ninja would be a agile ranged Job with awesome blade throwing animations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT12DW2Fm9M

More high flying ninja throwing blades from FF IV's opening cutscene.

Plus it would add another ranged DD job while allowing those who do enjoy the Thief to continue to play their favorite Job in the series. I personally like Thief aesthetically and visually and would be pretty sad to not see it become a job.

Not very many games have a throwing knife job either, it's a pretty unique archetype.

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Originally Posted by Calypsx

I personally want Ninja to be a ranged DD job that throws kunai knives and other bladed weapons kind of how Thancred does in that one cutscene, and Thief to be a melee dagger backstab/steal job. I usually see Ninja's throwing things more than fighting close up in FF games, and their specialty in many games was the "Throw" ability (and sometimes their most powerful).

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That would be kinda interesting, actually. Not sure what kind of class would focus on throwing daggers, but having NIN be a ranged DD like that would be rather interesting.

I always found their (Ninja's) melee attacks to be more effective than Throw more often than not. Less wasteful for sure.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

I always found their (Ninja's) melee attacks to be more effective than Throw more often than not. Less wasteful for sure.

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I feel otherwise, maybe because my favorite FF game was FFIII, Ninja's throw decimated Cloud of Darkness at lower levels, it's also pretty effective in a few other games. In that game you also have to buy arrows and shuriken for both Ninja and Archer though so it didn't really feel wasteful once you were used to buying arrows before getting Ninja.

Though in some games like VII, throw is incredibly wasteful. I guess it depends on the game.

I feel like if it was added in XIV, I doubt they would make it spend actual resources and just make it a staple ability thing they do. Kind of how Bards don't need to buy arrows.

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Originally Posted by Calypsx

I feel like if it was added in XIV, I doubt they would make it spend actual resources and just make it a staple ability thing they do. Kind of how Bards don't need to buy arrows.

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Exactly this. SE removed the arrow market specifically because they did not want to tie a class's entire value to a consumable. If a class came out that fought with throwing daggers/needles/shuriken/whatever, the "weapon" players would actually be equipping would be some kind of ammo pouch on their waists/hips (and the design of the daggers/needles/shuriken/whatever would change depending on what ammo pouch you equip).