Could MRD Possible Be The Best Melee DPS Class ? (Theory Crathing)

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Quote : Yoshida: in development environment devs are really strong with marauder


I wonder why he choose to say Marauder and not Warrior...maybe im reading to much into this.

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He also said in the same content, that we need to zoom out the camera... lol

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Your also not factoring in Chaos Thrust after Disembowel, which is the highest Potency ability Dragoon has, and it is always going to be boosted by 20% when it lands, so it's a 432 Potency attack by the time it's about to be refreshed.

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to be fair, chaos thrust is the highest potency attack in the game outside of limit breaks :p

the only single hit that does more damage is flare, and that's only because 3 stacks of astral fire add way more damage than heavy thrust + disembowel

i do agree though his 'theorycrafting' kindof ignored the fact that both the debuff application combo (impulse>disembowel>chaos) and the stand 1-2-3 combo (true>vorpal>full) are both higher average potency than the marauder equivalents of SE and BB combos

as an aside though, those 10% debuffs are effectively 11.111111111111111% damage buffs, lowering a mob's resist from 100 to 90 for that specific damage type (for you bards out there, a battle voiced foe requiem is a bigger damage buff than raging strikes for your mages)

I've been running over potency numbers, non-gcd attacks, buffs and what-not for DRG and MRD and I have to say it's really a very tough call. In some aspects MRD has an edge and others DRG has the edge, then when considering the mechanics for something challenging such as titan/coil it could play for or against either job, but I'll try and summarize it.

It seems like MRD has the advantage in three distinct aspects, one they don't have to worry about positional alignment, can maintain more buffs more consistently throughout the fight, and they don't need to defer from their main DPS rotation to maintain their buffs outside of a single Straight Shot every 20 seconds, however MRD lacks non-GCD moves outside of Brutal Swing, and if tanking loses some of it's DPS potential because they wouldn't be using Blood for Blood and/or swapping Cross Class abilities for defensive ones.

DRG has the advantage of 4 low-high cooldown non-GCD moves with much better potency than Brutal Swing and pretty much nothing else over MRD, this in itself is a major boon to DRG because it allows them to have extra attacks for good/decent damage with fair consistency and will probably usurp any advantages MRD has over the DRG in the long run (It's hard to judge how much advantage 40 more seconds of 20/50% boosts will play out on MRD without doing lots of calculations). However there is a catch 22 and that main catch is three of the four moves bind you in place during their long animations, if your not careful with your timing it can get you killed so having to hold back for timing's sake will reduce the overall effectiveness on this boon, but none the less will be a distinct advantage for DRG.

In the end this kind of falls back to the DRG vs MNK scenario, there are gonna be times one is gonna be able too outshine the other just based on the mechanics of the fight and nothing else, and I feel that's more than likely going to be the same case comparing these two.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

I wonder why he choose to say Marauder and not Warrior...maybe im reading to much into this.

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He also went back and said that they got that wrong, so it's not really your best piece of evidence.

If you want some straight up math, here goes.

The highest damage MAR rotation is BB>SE>BB>SE>Frac, or 2780 (630 + 610 + 630 + 610 + 300) potency over 13 GCDs, which is 213.85 potency per GCD. The only additional potency you're gonna get is from auto-attacks, which is 83.33, and Brutal Swing, which is 50 potency every 30 seconds for 4.17 potency per GCD. Totaled up, that gives you 301.35 potency per GCD on average (218.02 from special attacks; 83.33 from auto-attacks; this will be important later on).

The high damage DRG rotation is insanely long thanks to the CDs on a lot of unequal durations, so I'm not going to list it out and instead use straight up math: HS is 1 GCD out of every 8, CT is 3 GCDs out of every 12, Phleb is 1 GCD out of every 8, Frac is 1 out of every 8, and the rest is made up of Full Thrust. All of this adds up to 216.67 potency per GCD (1/8 * 170 + 3/12 * (760 / 3) + 1/8 * 290 + 1/8 * 220 + 9/24 * (650 / 3)). DRG also gets, off-GCD, Leg Sweep for 130 potency every 20 seconds for 16.25 potency per GCD, Jump for 200 (w/ 50% extra from Power Surge on half) every 40 seconds for 15.625 potency per GCD, and Spineshatter Dive for 170 every 90 seconds for 4.72 potency per GCD. The auto-crit from Life Surge is basically a free crit on Full Thrust, or 150 extra, every minute for 6.25 potency per GCD. Tack on the 83.33 for auto-attack and you get 342.8 potency per GCD (216.67 + 83.33 + 16.25 + 15.625 + 4.72 + 6.25).

For multipliers, MAR would get 20% from Maim, 11.1% (1/.9 actually) from Storm's Eye, 2.375% from Internal Release, 5% from Blood for Blood and 2.22% from Raging Strikes. Berserk adds 2.667% to special attacks and 8.89% to auto-attacks. DRG gets 10% from Heavy Thrust, 11.1% (1/.9 actually) from Disembowel, 2.375% from Internal Release, and 7.5% from Blood for Blood.

Put there together and we get these formulas:

MAR: (218.02 * 1.02667 + 83.33 * 1.0889) * 1.2 / .9 * 1.02375 * 1.05 * 1.022 = 460.8 potency per GCD

DRG: 342.8 * 1.1 / .9 * 1.02375 * 1.075 = 461.1 potency per GCD

Furthermore, compound this with the fact that DRG gets the STR traits, MAR doesn't get the job stat bonuses, and that the MAR gear is severely lacking on secondary DPS stats and DRG pulls away pretty quickly.

So, yeah. You wanted full on theorycrafting and I gave it to you: MAR isn't going to do more damage than a DRG and, at best, will likely get upwards of 85% of a DRG/LNC's.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

How are you able to do this as WAR ? Allagan Axe ? Str Potion ? Food ? What Mob was this on ?

Makes me even more excited to see our full potential.

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+1, i70 armor, Hero's belt, mostly i70 DPS accessories.

As mentioned before, we're always going to be calculating off of Maim + SE situations ha. Honestly I do BB>SE>BB>SE>BB>SE>etc to keep my damage as high as possible during encounters. Popping Unchained + Berserk + Inner Release on initial pull basically guarantees that I will have aggro for the rest of the fight. Other than surviving from that point on, the only other thing I can do is contribute to DPS, so I do. I only use STR potions under these circumstances:

1. Berserk is active
2. I remember to use them

I should definitely macro the pot into my Berserk ability but eh, I would only do this for content where the DPS is absolutely required since I would have to craft all of them.

My stats in a party are actually really low compared to most others:

407 STR
+30 DET from gear

Seeing as I get 25 STR if I went full i90 armor and ~25 more if I went full DPS Accs, I should see a 20% increase in DPS since I would also gain a decent amount of DET and CRIT.

I don't think the argument should be whether MRD or even WAR is better DPS than DRG/MNK or whoever else. I don't even know what the argument should be, really.

All I know is that on Titan (farm this every day) I consistently am able to compete with +1 i70+ DPSs who are T4+ experienced. Compete means within 15%. Under ideal situations, yes, you will be beaten every time. However, being able to stand in mechanics sometimes really helps when others have to move and cause disconnects. I make sure to tell my healers to not heal me during things like Titan or if I'm feeding slimes in T1. Through Bloodbath and using Storms Path (hate all you want) I get to DPS through mechanics that don't instantly kill people.

That's why my DPS is generally higher - Because I have ~99% connect time due to my ability to keep myself up. Communicate with your healers if you're trying to make this happen whether you're MRD or WAR. You can make it work but don't think that you are always the best option. I find more often than not, I end up popping Defiance>Provo>BB to pick up after a tank goes down and it has served me and my group(s) very well.

This is just my experience and should in no way be applicable to every other situation.

Sorry for the novel. Hope it helps anybody out.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

For multipliers, MAR would get 20% from Maim, 11.1% (1/.9 actually) from Storm's Eye, 2.375% from Internal Release, and 2.22% from Raging Strikes. Berserk adds 2.667% to special attacks and 8.89% to auto-attacks.

Put there together and we get these formulas:

MAR: (218.02 * 1.02667 + 83.33 * 1.0889) * 1.2 / .9 * 1.02375 * 1.022 = 438.8 potency per GCD

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It looks like you left out Blood for Blood in the Marauder Calculations, which would be an additional 5% overall (20/80 * .2). Thus the average potency per GCD should be:

(218.02 * 1.02667 + 83.33 * 1.0889) * 1.2 / .9 * 1.02375 * 1.022 * 1.05 = 460.78

Dragoon still has higher base strength, access to more secondary DPS stats on their armor, and doesn't have to worry about being threat capped, but potency per GCD looks to be nearly identical.

i could see them adding like a beserker job to the class. first ability would be a buff like defiance that lowers HP a bit and greatly reduces enimity while raises ones damage. you would still gain wrath but instead of having a self heal you would get a strong move that puts some kind of debuff on the mob. there would be a steel cyclone like move that causes either blind or stun. instead of unchained(which i love as WAR with berserk main and IR all in one) beserker should get a move that gives all dps in a certain range a damage boost.

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Originally Posted by Calib0s

It looks like you left out Blood for Blood in the Marauder Calculations

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Not entirely sure how I missed that, but yeah, you're right. MRD with all of those CDs simply matches DRG on potency per GCD and DRG is going to get more out of each point of potency thanks to higher STR and better secondary stats.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Not entirely sure how I missed that, but yeah, you're right. MRD with all of those CDs simply matches DRG on potency per GCD and DRG is going to get more out of each point of potency thanks to higher STR and better secondary stats.

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This also works out to be an impractical comparison because of the fact that it works with Butchers Block, which in itself will rip aggro from the tank on any encounter with more than 20 seconds worth of GCD's. So the true Damage Dealing capability of Marauder is still lower due tot he fact that they NEED to only use Storms Eye over and over again. VERY TP Inefficient, and lacking in overall Potency.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

This also works out to be an impractical comparison because of the fact that it works with Butchers Block, which in itself will rip aggro from the tank on any encounter with more than 20 seconds worth of GCD's. So the true Damage Dealing capability of Marauder is still lower due tot he fact that they NEED to only use Storms Eye over and over again. VERY TP Inefficient, and lacking in overall Potency.

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You know you can keep an eye on the aggro bars and cycle between both combo's right?

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Originally Posted by Kitru

So, yeah. You wanted full on theorycrafting and I gave it to you: MAR isn't going to do more damage than a DRG and, at best, will likely get upwards of 85% of a DRG/LNC's.

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It's MRD, not MAR. There's no real reason to include Maim/HT and SE/Disembowel, since they're bonuses shared by both jobs. They are both 20%. You have for some reason stated that HT is 10%; that is not correct. You also need to put the buffs together -- roll an actual rotation into it. Berserk + B4B + RS + IR every 180s alternated with Berserk + B4B + IR at 90s intervals will produce higher DPS than using them assuming no normal overlap. You'll get 20% more out of B4B by matching it to Berserk instead of using on CD, and the boost is larger the more you stack. Your math on Berserk is just flat-out wrong, for whatever reason. It's attack power, not determination; the difference between effect on weaponskill and autoattack is effectively negligible (1-2%) and favors weaponskills rather than autoattacks. Estimating them both at 40% damage boost is generally good enough, but as an example, Valk's formula with ilvl90 weapon, 420 strength, and 260 DTR predicts 41.61% increase in WS damage and 40.42% increase in AA damage -- so we'll say 41% overall (actually slightly more, won't really matter).

Taking your per-GCD estimates and ignoring the identical buffs (being lazy with DRG's IR use -- actually turns out not to matter, more or less), you'd have:

MRD: 301.35 * (2.223288*15/180 + 2.0304*5/180 + 1.692*5/180 + 1.85274*15/180 + 1*140/180) = 367.902 comparative per-GCD assuming perfect, instant clears of Pacification and instant use of abilities (not really true on either count)
DRG: 342.8 * (1*60/80+1.417*20/80) = 378.537 comparative per-GCD

All other buffs are the same. Both are going to be slight overestimates due to issues with DRG animation lengths, interrupts which cannot be used on CD, and so on. All told, though, it's something like a 3-5% lead in potency, then the big chunk of STR which extends a 10% lead on top of that.

//EDIT: I stand corrected. MRD has a 6.026% advantage before strength is taken into account. DRG has 42 more from base stats.

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Originally Posted by Grembo

You know you can keep an eye on the aggro bars and cycle between both combo's right?

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Yes I do! It's part of why I said what I said, and it falls under 2 issues.

1) Average Potency per GCD is automatically lower than what is being calculated due to the change up in Rotation, since you can't just "SE, BB, SE BB..."

and 2) The chances for a heavy high end Skull Sunder/Butcher Block Critical Hit to Spike you over enmity would force you to keep yourself terribly low on the enemy aggro meter. Something that can't be done if Marauder is in fact such amazing DPS. =P

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

You have for some reason stated that HT is 10%; that is not correct.

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Umm Yes it is. Heavy Thrust = 10% more damage dealt.

http://www.ffxivinfo.com/class/lance...y=heavy-thrust

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Umm Yes it is. Heavy Thrust = 10% more damage dealt.

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Well damn, I stand corrected. Welp, there goes basically the whole advantage that DRG had...

//EDIT: Yup, I've had it with Kitru's attitude problem. Ignorelisted, don't expect a response.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Your math on Berserk is just flat-out wrong, for whatever reason.

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The math I did on Berserk is specifically accounting for the Pacification debuff. I chose to go with 40% specifically *because* it's attack power rather than damage. Ignoring the Pacification massively overinflates the value of Berserk. As I said in my first post in this thread, you get 140% special attack damage for 20 seconds and 0% special attack damage for 5 seconds. Over the 25 seconds total duration of it, you're only doing 12% more special attack damage than you would have otherwise ((140 * 20) / 25). So, if you completely ignore the Pacification, you're bloating Berserk's contributions from 12% (what you'd really get) to 40%.

Basically, I already explained where I got those numbers from and explained them. The fact that you somehow completely missed those and elected to assume that I did something absolutely absurd like only factoring it on determination is your own damned fault.

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MRD: 301.35 * (2.223288*15/180 + 2.0304*5/180 + 1.692*5/180 + 1.85274*15/180 + 1*140/180) = 367.902 comparative per-GCD assuming perfect, instant clears of Pacification and instant use of abilities (not really true on either count)

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I enjoy how you throw in numbers without explaining them in the least. The only one that has any reference point is the one you took from me. I can only assume that you're looking at the stacked buffs layered on top of each rather than discretely factored, though you're screwing up the CDs something fierce by using a 180 sec cycle as your standard.

Let's try to break this down so that people that *aren't* you can actually understand what the hell you're trying to say.

Blood for Blood is a 20% increase in damage for 20 seconds every 80.
Berserk is (for you) a 41% increase to damage for 20 seconds follow by a reduction of potency to 83.33 for 5 seconds (you're explicitly choosing to ignore this which, as I've previously mentioned, massively inflates its actual value)
Internal Release is a 9.1% increase in damage for 15 seconds every 60 (assuming a 20% base crit chance)
Raging Strikes is a 20% increase in damage for 20 seconds every 180.
Maim is a constant 20% increase in damage, but you said that you're ignoring this

Your 2.22x is, I'm guessing based upon your uptime multiplier, your assumption for the full overlap of all CDs simultaneously (which is nowhere *remotely* close to realistic), which would be 2.215 (1.2 * 1.41 * 1.091 * 1.2).

I'm guessing, because IR has a 15 second duration whereas everything else is 20 and you gave it a 5 sec duration, that your 2.0304x is everything stacked except for IR, which would be 2.0304 (1.2 * 1.41 * 1.2).

Your 1.85 is, I'm guessing, is Berserk + IR + Blood For Blood, which would be 1.846 (1.41 * 1.091 * 1.2).

The 1.692 is like Berserk + BfB thanks to IR falling off, which would be 1.692.

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DRG: 342.8 * (1*60/80+1.417*20/80) = 378.537 comparative per-GCD

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Now for DRG.

Blood for Blood is 30% increased damage for 20 seconds every 80.
Internal Release is 9.1% increased damage for 15 seconds every 60.

Your 1.417 would have to be BfB + IR, which would be 1.418 (1.3 * 1.091). Of course, the overlap only lasts 15 seconds, so you'd need to pull that down to 15/180 and add a 5/180 that's a 1.3x.

Interestingly enough, this is actually realistic for for DRG since it's only layering 2 buffs.

MAR (I call it that because it's just turning the W in WAR upside down; it amuses me), on the other hand, would never actually be able to layer all of those buffs together. For each of those, you'd get a lot of partially buffed GCDs, which cuts down on the actual contributions.

Your 2.22x for 6 GCDs is really 1 GCD of only Raging Strikes, 1 GCD of RS + BfB, 1 GCD of Berserk + RS + BfB, and then 5 GCDs of all 4 buffs layered followed by 1 GCD of BfB + Berserk + IR and 1 GCD of Berserk. So, instead of the 2.22x for 15 seconds and 2.03x for 5 seconds (a sum total of .2414 for 20/180 that it's contributing to the total multiplier; 2.22 * 15/180 + 2.03 * 5/180), it's really more like this....

1.2 * 2.5 / 180 +
1.2 * 1.2 * 2.5 / 180 +
1.2 * 1.2 * 1.41 * 2.5 / 180 +
1.2 * 1.2 * 1.41 * 1.091 * 12.5 / 180 +
1.2 * 1.41 * 1.091 * 2.5 / 180 +
1.41 * 2.5 / 180

Total all of that up and you get .2639 for 25/180. Normalize the two value for a per GCD contribution and you get 1.207% with your numbers and 1.0556% with the corrected ones. Your math inflates the value of the stacks MAR CDs by 14.3%.

For the 1.69x and 1.85x portions of your math, the same inflation applies. You'd really get 1 GCD of BfB, 1 GCD of BfB + Berserk, 6 GCDs of all 3 stacked, and 1 GCD of Berserk, which looks like...

1.2 * 2.5 / 180 +
1.2 * 1.41 * 2.5 / 180 +
1.2 * 1.41 * 1.091 * 15 / 180 +
1.41 * 2.5 / 180

Total that up as well and you get .2136 over 22.5 seconds. Normalize the two values per GCD and you get 1.0055% with your numbers and .950% with the corrected numbers, which is a 6% inflation in real contribution.

So, let's put this all together for you. The two CD usage rotations last 25 and 22.5 seconds, respectively, which means that you've got 132.5 seconds of unmodified damage. Since we've already determined the additive contributions of the rotations to the end multiplier, we just add those directly, which gives us this formula for the total multiplier: (.2639 + .2136 + (1 * 132.5 / 180)).

Multiplying it through to the average potency per GCD gives us...

301.35 * (.2639 + .2136 + (1 * 132.5 / 180)) = 365.72 potency per GCD

(the number may be similar enough, but, if you want to criticize my methodology, do it right)

Keep in mind, we're *still* ignoring Pacification because you just didn't feel like including it even though it completely and utterly destroys Berserk's contributions, which happen to be the single biggest contributor to all of those multipliers. It's actually pretty easy to account for as well, unless you're so lazy you're willing to assume absurd cases like instant Pacification cleansing every time.

While you are Pacified, your potency per GCD drops to 83.33 since you're not getting *any* special attacks (and you've already said that we're ignoring the constant buffs). 83.33 is 27.65% of 301.35, so, to account for Pacification, we simply add in 10 seconds with a .2765 modifier taken out of the unmodified portion of the equation. This gives us...

301.35 * (.2639 + .2136 + (.2765 * 10 / 180) + (1 * 122.5 / 180)) = 353.61

Now, keep in mind, the math you did for DRG was actually applicable because it didn't have the problems that had to be corrected for MAR, but that doesn't mean that you can straight up compare the 378.54 that DRG gets to MAR's 353.61. Since you elected to ignore Maim and Heavy Thrust, we have to multiply those through, which gives us 416.40 for DRG and 424.33 for MAR.

If you want to include the 10% debuffs, you get 462.66 for DRG and 471.48 for MAR. My original math said 461.1 for DRG and 460.8 for MAR. Your corrections for stacking CDs netted DRG an extra .34% damage and MAR an extra 2.3%. Neither of those is anywhere close enough to change any kind of conclusion and serves no real purpose other than you trying to correct me for arbitrary reasons, which, you know, I guess was what you wanted to accomplish.

My original methodology is simpler to write out, easier for people to understand, and comes up with numbers that are close enough that it doesn't make any real difference. In fact, because I factored in Pacification while you did not, my numbers were actually *closer* to the truth than yours were. If you want to call me out for doing something wrong, at least make sure that, in trying to correct me, you don't do it even more wrong yourself.

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//EDIT: I stand corrected. MRD has a 6.026% advantage before strength is taken into account. DRG has 42 more from base stats.

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The fact that you couldn't even understand you own math to go back and correct it rather than doing some *really* simple baseline multiplication doesn't really lend much credence to your ability to understand what you're doing.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

This also works out to be an impractical comparison because of the fact that it works with Butchers Block, which in itself will rip aggro from the tank on any encounter with more than 20 seconds worth of GCD's. So the true Damage Dealing capability of Marauder is still lower due tot he fact that they NEED to only use Storms Eye over and over again. VERY TP Inefficient, and lacking in overall Potency.

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It's only a 10 TP difference between BB and SE combo, either way MRD will have access to Invigorate as well so that should handle any TP inefficiencies that MRD might have.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

//EDIT: Yup, I've had it with Kitru's attitude problem. Ignorelisted, don't expect a response.

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TO be frank, you're being just as bad as he is with that kind of response.

His loss really. Beat at his own game, can't be having that now.

I would have an 'attitude problem' too if someone was poking imaginary holes in my math or drawing conclusions from an over simplified basis and calling it good.

Don't fuck with math.

I'm slightly noob in regard to MRD/WAR and tank classes in general, I only played them in dungeons from 15 to 38 or so...that being said, I noticed some in this thread mentioned the enmity issue a few posts ago. Are we considering the lack of Defiance in all this theorycrafting? If a PLD or another WAR use their tank stance (Shield oath/Defiance), while the MRD devoted to DPS doesn't, shouldn't the MRD get considerably less enmity? Of course the other tank needs to be on par or have higher gear - a DRG with relic is going to steal a lot of aggro in AK runs with i60 tanks, so I can't even imagine how much harder would be for a MRD to leave the aggro to an undergeared tank. Again, I'm not really expert so it's more of a question rather than a debate. I came in this thread looking for advice on making MRD/WAR a viable DPS for titan HM while another PLD is tanking.

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

Threat issues

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Unfortunately the threat modifiers on either tanking stance does not make up for the damage loss (20/25%) for using the stance.

A tank outside their tanking stance will actually generate more threat than a tank using their stance.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

For multipliers, MAR would get 20% from Maim, 11.1% (1/.9 actually) from Storm's Eye, 2.375% from Internal Release, 5% from Blood for Blood and 2.22% from Raging Strikes. Berserk adds 2.667% to special attacks and 8.89% to auto-attacks. DRG gets 10% from Heavy Thrust, 11.1% (1/.9 actually) from Disembowel, 2.375% from Internal Release, and 7.5% from Blood for Blood.

Put there together and we get these formulas:

MAR: (218.02 * 1.02667 + 83.33 * 1.0889) * 1.2 / .9 * 1.02375 * 1.05 * 1.022 = 460.8 potency per GCD

DRG: 342.8 * 1.1 / .9 * 1.02375 * 1.075 = 461.1 potency per GCD

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No disrespect but as CaliBos Stated earlier, You didnt account for Blood for Blood for MRD in your equation and I know Straight shot is on GCD but the 20sec boost should not be ignored in your equation either. Also, theoretically this equation only works if Both classes are playing perferctly. Which is easier to do As MRD since: 1. MRD really have only 2 rotation to worry about, 2. you can macro buffs in between abilities easily, 3 dont have to worry about positions. and 4 dont have to worry about Jumps possibly taken up a CD.

But regardless, mathimatically you are right. But just because it works on paper, doesn't mean its always going to work like that. If that's the case, how do you explain BRDs out dpsing MNK and DRG when they have higher potency single target rotations, more attacks off gcd and things like Grease lighting ? They do because of Game Dynamics. Unless DRG and MNK are fighting a practice dummy, BRD will out dps them because of the games dynamics until bards are nerfed. No disrespect to MNK and DRG but numbers dont lie, every time im in a party with a mnk or brd or bard and drg, BRD is always above them unless the other significantly outgear them.

I will agree DRG has an avantage over MRD when it comes to gear with more dps stats tho. With that being said, i wouldnt be Shocked if they created a DPS JOB for the class because of the way their build. When that day comes I'm sure MRD will be a force to be reckoned with. We shall see.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

TO be frank, you're being just as bad as he is with that kind of response.

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I'm not going to entertain Kitru's incessant abusiveness. I came here for a video game, not to listen to someone append every sentence with a petty insult. If you cannot act civilly, then you will be expressly ignored.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

But regardless, mathimatically you are right

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no disrespect but that post you're quoting was already edited with the proper values (mostly)

...and the part you cut out was talking about the innate stat difference dragoon gets over marauder.. something along the lines of 40 strength

basically, a dragoon could unequip all of their jewelry and still outdps a marauder

when they actually wear equivalent gear the comparison isn't even close :\

more to the point, this thread seems to be dedicated to 'dragoon vs. marauder' when there's other dps classes out there.. and most of them look a lot better on paper than dragoon does.

tldr - no marauder is not the best, or second best, or third best.. they *might* have a shot at claiming 6th best dps class out there (but that's assuming we're only talking about single target, as both scholar and white mage outdps a marauder in any aoe situation.. along with every other dd class, they're really only better than paladins and gladiators at that point)

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Opportunity costs.

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The big issue with that idea is melee dps have essentially the same opportunity costs as each other. You or maybe someone else mentioned being able to take a better hit, but intentionally taking damage is a horrid idea as it will hinder your party. There is a reason why bad dps and red circles are intimately related. Only one fight comes to mind where positioning is not viable for melee dps, and that is demon wall. So yeah enjoy that.

Second since we are moving towards hypothetical and away from mathematical theory, how about the issue of finding parties as a mrd dps. I know I'd laugh you out of any of my parties if you joined as any base class for end game content, much less doing so as a tank class.

I'll just touch on aggro issues as all your focus on high dps will make you an aggro beast. The party loves it when a dps pulls aggro from the real tanks.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

...Both classes are playing perferctly. Which is easier to do As MRD since: 1. MRD really have only 2 rotation to worry about, 2. you can macro buffs in between abilities easily, 3 dont have to worry about positions. and 4 dont have to worry about Jumps possibly taken up a CD.

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You seriously need to stop using potential failures in the Dragoon's playing ability as a basis for your arguments. I could just as easily say that because Marauder's 2 rotations are so easy to play that they will die to simple game mechanics due to a lack of player knowledge and skill so they will never do any damage at all and thus they won't be better than Dragoon. It follows the same logic, albeit totally exaggerated.

We are comparing the best possible potential for each Class/Job, and figuring out which one is better, and in every case Dragoon wins, while being the bottom tier of the Melee Damage Dealers.

On top of all that, Warrior is subject to the same Mechanics as Dragoon, you have to assume at the least the same up time of attacking for both, and technically, Dragoon wins in that fight as well, because of Spine Shatter Dive, and Dragon Fire Dive being effective gap closers, which is a mechanic that Marauder/Warrior completely lack as a Melee DPS. (Monk has one also)

Finally Jumps INCREASE Dragoon damage, and any competent Dragoon is using them to boost their rotational damage, not stressing out about how to use them. ALL of them are not GCD attacks, and at the very worst increase DPS, at the very best, close gaps while dealing good damage. Either way, they help, not hurt a Dragoon.

So please stop using "unskilled" as a basis for why a Class/Job can or can not perform well. if that were truly a case, then nobody would be even bringing monks to Coil, because "they are too hard to play right".

heh, well... The Marauder would actually likely out-DPS a dragoon with no jewelry, but the comparison to Dragoon is only being made because the classes play very similarly and have very close average attack potency.

Marauder definitely isn't the best DPS, that's a ridiculous statement to make. There is no fight where a skilled Marauder will do more DPS than a skilled damage dealer.

But they can come within 10-15% of a pure DPS class' overall damage in actual play and have huge burst potential while still being quite sturdy. There are certainly applications for that.

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Originally Posted by Eightbit

I'll just touch on aggro issues as all your focus on high dps will make you an aggro beast. The party loves it when a dps pulls aggro from the real tanks.

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People keep forgetting MRD enimity is extremely gimp without Defiance. Matter fact, Go into a Level 50 Dungeon as a MRD or GLD and see how well you hold threat against othere jobs without your stance. I dont see MRD out dpsing BLMs (who are typically main tanks worst enemy when it comes to threat) any time soon. So unless they are spamming just BB Combo they should not be pulling threat off Main Tank. And Even Then it will be difficult for a MRD to do.

BLM, SMN and BRD can't just unleash without any concerns of threat, if they did, it will prolly get the whole party wiped. At the end of the day, Just like any othere class they will be limited of maximizing their DPS if the have to slow down because of threat.

Come on guys, some of you are taking this a lil too seriously, this is just theory. No one Said "MRD is top DPS, bow down to the King" lol. MRD have proved they are capable of great DPS, im just theory crafting how good they can be with best gear in game compared to other melee dps.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

People keep forgetting MRD enimity is extremely gimp without Defiance. [B]Matter fact, Go into a Level 50 Dungeon as a MRD or GLD and see how well you hold threat against othere jobs without your stance.[/B

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See, now you just totally validated my exaggerated example of Marauders being too easy to play and thus not teaching the player... Without Defiance, it is EASIER to hold threat, and there are a vast majority of players who will agree, myself included from personal experience.

The Damage penalty that is incurred from Defiance still averages out to give LESS enmity than just not using defiance in the first place. Paladins even have the same problem

So, If you are losing aggro to any other class out of Defiance, then this is clearly an indication of your skill and ability to lead a group being FAR below par, or you are playing with people who vastly out gear you.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

So, If you are losing aggro to any other class out of Defiance, then this is clearly an indication of your skill and ability to lead a group being FAR below par, or you are playing with people who vastly out gear you.

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My experiences completely disagree with you. I find it considerably easier to hold hate against well geared DPS with Defiance on than without. Butcher's block alone does dmg x 5 for enmity so the only way that turning defiance off equates to the same amount of hate is if I'm doing over 1000 damage every single time I do a butcher's block. Which I don't because that's impossible. There is no mathematical way turning off Defiance adds enough damage to outdo the threat modifiers when they are x3 and x5. You'd have to make up all that threat through raw additional damage that simply 25% more damage can not give us.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

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Grab another Warrior. Get naked. Wear the same weapon.

Go do Butcher's Block combo on something together - one in Defiance the other out of Defiance.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

My experiences completely disagree with you. I find it considerably easier to hold hate against well geared DPS with Defiance on than without. Butcher's block alone does dmg x 5 for enmity so the only way that turning defiance off equates to the same amount of hate is if I'm doing over 1000 damage every single time I do a butcher's block. Which I don't because that's impossible. There is no mathematical way turning off Defiance adds enough damage to outdo the threat modifiers when they are x3 and x5. You'd have to make up all that threat through raw additional damage that simply 25% more damage can not give us.

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False, tank stances do not x2 your enimty generation it's way lower than that.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

My experiences completely disagree with you. I find it considerably easier to hold hate against well geared DPS with Defiance on than without. Butcher's block alone does dmg x 5 for enmity so the only way that turning defiance off equates to the same amount of hate is if I'm doing over 1000 damage every single time I do a butcher's block. Which I don't because that's impossible. There is no mathematical way turning off Defiance adds enough damage to outdo the threat modifiers when they are x3 and x5. You'd have to make up all that threat through raw additional damage that simply 25% more damage can not give us.

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You should fix your gear up and test this out better yourself. You severely lack strength on your character from what the lodestone is showing right now. Warriors with only Vitality always find it much harder to hold threat, in and out of Defiance. I have tested this out many times, but in the end I hold enmity easier, and I rip off my Paladin friend (Better gear than I have) when I am out of defiance. Tanking AK is FAR easier to do (Enmity wise) when I am out of defiance as well.

Your character looks like your an accomplishing Coil Tank, but your 75 points of Strength below me. If you think that Enmity is based on a Multiplicative modifier, then clearly points into strength would exponentially help with threat. Being out of Defiance then, 25% more damage gets multiplied by 3 and by 5. Which amounts to 75% and 125% more damage worth of enmity in your example. (If that is how Butchers Block, and Skull sunder actually work.) So how would that ever make it harder to tank without defiance?

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Originally Posted by Phreak

False, tank stances do not x2 your enimty generation it's way lower than that.

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Correct, that was phase 3. More recent testing suggests a 1.5x modifier, which is an effective 1.125x total enmity when compared to no Defiance (neglecting impact of crit bonus). Exact numbers would require more testing.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

snip...

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First off I have no problems holding hate what-so-ever even though I'm full Vit, and I'm constantly having to watch myself so I don't pull off our PLD in the coil by accident. So lets just go ahead and put that one to bed since it was an assumption on your side anyway.


As for the numbers I was rushing at work so my previous post did have some incorrect info. Based on the info I have Skull sunder and Butchers block have a x3 and x5 bonus respectably when combo'd. There is a noticeable buff in hate generation when defiance is active. I've seen the info and some say it isn't x2 and some say it isn't, but the fact of the matter is to generate less hate than not using Defiance would require that threat buff to be below 25% in order to come in at less threat than the 25% damage bonus would give you. In my personal experiences I can not agree that this would be the case. I notice a distinct enmity boost when using defiance. Considering everything here is working in percentages that means everything scales appropriately to strength. Therefore you having more strength than I do means little to this discussion. It may not be 2x, but Defiance has clearly worked better for me in every instance. I may take the time to find another warrior and do some sort of "hate battle" with him, but that is also a pretty shitty way of measuring due to variances in damage and crit rates. Until someone can provide real numbers I'm going to go with my gut, and my gut tells me all those dungeons I've run and all those times I left defiance off I generated less enmity than those times I had it on. I think it, my war friends think it, and my party members agree. Without numbers we are all talking out of our collective asses anyway.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

Without Defiance, it is EASIER to hold threat, and there are a vast majority of players who will agree, myself included from personal experience.

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Who are you kidding .... you act as if your the only WAR to test this lol. I do agree the -25% damage gimp in defiance is counter productive on SE part for tanking, but there is still a clear avantage for having Defiance on. It May not be a x2 multiplier, but its still generate more threat in stance.

On my PLD However, I've tested Shield Oath vs Sword Oath and its hard to say which genorate more. But i definately notice on WAR in vs out of defiance.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Correct, that was phase 3. More recent testing suggests a 1.5x modifier, which is an effective 1.125x total enmity when compared to no Defiance (neglecting impact of crit bonus). Exact numbers would require more testing.

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Care to explain how that equates to 1.125?

Lets say I do my three hit combo and do 100, 200, and 300 damage on the three hits.

100 x 1 = 100
200 x 3 = 600
300 x 5 = 1500
= 2200 threat generated

Same numbers with Defiance

100 x 1 x 1.5 = 150
200 x 3 x 1.5 = 900
300 x 5 x 1.5 = 2250
= 3300 threat generated

3300 / 2200 = 1.5

I'm not seeing how you get that number.

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Originally Posted by ZDamned

You seriously need to stop using potential failures in the Dragoon's playing ability as a basis for your arguments. I could just as easily say that because Marauder's 2 rotations are so easy to play that they will die to simple game mechanics due to a lack of player knowledge and skill so they will never do any damage at all and thus they won't be better than Dragoon. It follows the same logic, albeit totally exaggerated.

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No it's a valid point, Jumps Bind the DRG into position which leave them open to being hurt so they can't just spam it whenever it comes up, and AoE happy mobs like Titan and Ifrit can screw with rotations if AoE's block off your positional WS's opportunities when they come up, and every time something like that happens your DPS takes a hit. In MRD's case they more or less can do anything unhindered, they don't require a special position and if they need to pull away from their main rotation from threat they only lose out on a mere 20 potency, it's a pretty distinct advantage MRD has over DRG but unless a scenario plays against DRG they probably won't be able to out DPS DRG's. The same can be said for MNK's too in most cases DRG isn't going to out DPS them, but anytime a MNK loses Greased Lightning (Titan Jumps for example) they lose a hefty chunk of attack/skill speed and have to spend time rebuilding it and it greatly affects their DPS numbers.