Legit Players Banned/Punished due to RMT *FOR DUMMIES: A GUIDE*

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

There is not enough /facepalm for this.

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Indeed, the undercutting is facepalm worthy.

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and if people are buying r.ingot at 1 mil when the tomestone items are at 70k, then they're stupid.

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According to you it's "not personal preference" though, huh?

I don't believe any of the people who are banned are innocent. I have been making good money on the market, and have not been banned "because some gil buyer bought my stuff". Your friends probably broke the rules somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

It's at least partially the seller's own fault for putting their goods up for ridiculously outrageous prices. People would be much less tempted to buy RMT gil if prices were reasonable.

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I'm not sure if you realize how terrible the logic you're using is, it's the classic blame the victim routine. Do you blame the victim of a carjacking for driving too nice of a car?

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Originally Posted by Tupsi

Indeed, the undercutting is facepalm worthy.

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only if the undercutting is so severe as make the seller become unprofitable (assuming that isn't his intended goal).

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According to you it's "not personal preference" though, huh?

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It isn't, do not confuse preference with stupidity. Even in Eve there are those who still cannot grasp the concept of opportunity cost and think the ores they mined are free.

people like you wouldn't survive a day in market systems in games like Eve.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

I'm not sure if you realize how terrible the logic you're using is, it's the classic blame the victim routine. Do you blame the victim of a carjacking for driving too nice of a car?

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I don't think you could have come up with a more terrible analogy. lol

Here's a real life one: If someone steals $1 million dollars from a bank and the authorities can track the stolen money, that money is confiscated from the people it was paid to. That's exactly what SE is doing here. RMT'd money is, for lack of a better term, illegal in the game and is thus confiscated.

As I have now said for the 3rd time, I agree that sellers should get the items that were bought with RMT gil back, but the gil is correctly being removed.

I remember when I use to read the xbox forums and all the people who claimed they didn't cheat/hack their achievements and trying to argue the fact on that specific account suspension thread and being shot down..Just because someone can defend a lie doesnt mean its still not a lie.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

I don't think you could have come up with a more terrible analogy. lol

Here's a real life one: If someone steals $1 million dollars from a bank and the authorities can track the stolen money, that money is confiscated from the people it was paid to. That's exactly what SE is doing here. RMT'd money is, for lack of a better term, illegal in the game and is thus confiscated.

As I have now said for the 3rd time, I agree that sellers should get the items that were bought with RMT gil back, but the gil is correctly being removed.

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Even if all the items were returned, it would just crash the market from the huge surplus of goods that would then be put up. I could even guess the value would be around 1% of the original selling price (even now the prices have dropped a bit without the returning of goods). I don't think that would actually solve anything.

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Originally Posted by BHolland

I remember when I use to read the xbox forums and all the people who claimed they didn't cheat/hack their achievements and trying to argue the fact on that specific account suspension thread and being shot down..Just because someone can defend a lie doesnt mean its still not a lie.

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Except for the fact that SE has already deemed these people innocent of knowingly being involved in RMT and reinstated their accounts, but took their gil away anyway..

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Originally Posted by Codek

Even if all the items were returned, it would just crash the market from the huge surplus of goods that would then be put up. I could even guess the value would be around 1% of the original selling price (even now the prices have dropped a bit without the returning of goods). I don't think that would actually solve anything.

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That's fine. Most items were marked up 100+ times what they should have been anyway. That's what tempted people to buy RMT gil to purchase them.

What's important is that the RMT gil was removed. You're not getting it back and there's no rational argument for why you should get it back. If you don't want the items back and would rather whine some more, I'll take them off your hands! :D

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Originally Posted by Schubalts

Except for the fact that SE has already deemed these people innocent of knowingly being involved in RMT and reinstated their accounts, but took their gil away anyway..

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The fact they were innocent of knowingly participating in RMT is completely besides the point. If gil was removed, it was gil that was from an RMT source. It's exactly what real police do when they track stolen money... they confiscate it. SE should give the items that were bought with it back, however.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

That's fine. Most items were marked up 100+ times what they should have been anyway. That's what tempted people to buy RMT gil to purchase them.

What's important is that the RMT gil was removed. You're not getting it back and there's no rational argument for why you should get it back. If you don't want the items back and would rather whine some more, I'll take them off your hands! :D

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I would just wish it to not crash the market, I like playing it right now!

Maybe a free house! Give those affected a free house in 2.1! or a car!

Better yet:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q3BDeDdkOb...oprah-bees.gif

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

I don't think you could have come up with a more terrible analogy. lol

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Don't blame me for your inability to properly comprehend what you read.

First, it was to counter your assertion that crafters were somehow to blame for the illicit activities of others, which is a question of morality, not legality. Inadvertent strawman is still a strawman, try again.

Second, trying to use RL laws and ordinances (which btw, varies depending on jurisdictions) is also terrible, as SE is not beholden to follow those in the slightest within the game world.

Note that I am not actually taking anyone's side here. In my own experience, this who cry foul generally turn out to be guilty in the end, though mistakes do occasionally happen (especially taking into consideration this is SE... gardening anyone?).

What I take issue with are the implications that crafters somehow have a duty to sell stuff as cheaply as possible to buyers, even at a loss, and that not doing so means they are to blame for people buying gil.

I have sold too many things for more than 50k, that's how I have my gil flowing and I have never been suspended. I don't think they will remove your gil if you are a legit player. However, the way RMT works so it's harder to detect could be something like this...

1. Player goes to the RMT website to buy gil.
*here, most of the time, they sign up with the same username and some times with the same password from the game*

2. Once they purchased the gil, the RMT gets online and transfers all the gil from all the gatherers, hacked accounts, etc to one character (hence they state "delivery within 10 minutes").

3. Now that one character has the amount of gil, the RMT then asks the buyer to put in the market X items for X amount of gil so it goes "undetected" or "harder to track". Once that's done then the RMT would ask the player's retainer name to track it and purchase the items the player set up in the market masking it as a "legit transaction".

However, since there are logs, and the player is obtaining so much gil in a short time it is easy to track down the transactions of the retainer, knowing who purchased the items and if several transactions were made to give X player 1-2 mil gil it is pretty much ok to think the player purchased gil, becoming into the suspension and a permanent ban to the account that transfered the funds. HOWEVER I don't think they do more tracking than what I just mentioned, leaving the spammers, bots and hacked accounts out of the map until someone reports those... making it a never ending story, the RMT just gets a new account or a hacked account to get in business again.

Note that hacked accounts IMO are sold accounts because there's no way to get hacked (as I understand), the account is blocked once it detects a diferent IP, happened to me once I gave my beta account to someone else and I was sent an e-mail warning that it was being accessed from a diferent IP and I needed to aprove it. Else, you got to get a new antivirus because most decent ones can detect most spyware, keyloggers, etc.

Also, NEVER register the same password on diferent websites, always on gaming use diferent passwords for each one of them.

I have never purchased gil, but this is how I think they work.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

What I take issue with are the implications that crafters somehow have a duty to sell stuff as cheaply as possible to buyers, even at a loss, and that not doing so means they are to blame for people buying gil.

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noone is saying this at all.

What is being said is that: normal players cannot reach 500k through normal play questing and such. There wasn't enough gil income in the game. Gil was being duped and there was a lot of gil on the market. Players started selling stuff that would normally would have sold for 10-30k for 70k. Crafters started buying that crap and selling the crafted items for 1-7 million. Gil buyers then in their laziness started buying gil to get the 20 million gil required to get that gear.

You were all in the cycle.

The gil had to be removed from the market. It was removed.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

The fact they were innocent of knowingly participating in RMT is completely besides the point. If gil was removed, it was gil that was from an RMT source. It's exactly what real police do when they track stolen money... they confiscate it. SE should give the items that were bought with it back, however.

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So 99% of all of those people's gil came directly from someone who bought gil? Exactly 99%? If the police have evidence that you unknowingly received stolen or counterfeit money, they don't clear out 99% of your bank account, they charge you with returning exactly the amount that was confirmed stolen or counterfeit (and you can even file to have goods sold unknowingly for that money returned to you).

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Originally Posted by Lucroarna

Yes, I'm not a huge alarmist, and I love SE, but this entire situation is really making me consider saying nevermind to this entire game. If I can't make gil, and I'm bored of grinding tomes, what is there for to me actually enjoy in the game? Very weird.

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Sadly im in the same situation as you. Ill be honest. I've only somewhat started the grind, and i dont want to do 53 runs of cm to get full df, so what else can i do? well i got crafting to 50 but i really cant net much of a profit out of that either, bots got the AH packed and overstocked on crap. I have to make gil to buy the materials or farm em, which is overbotted.

I guess i could fish?

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Originally Posted by ashikenshin

noone is saying this at all.

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This is from the last couple pages in this thread alone, nevermind others:

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Many items were utterly overpriced and those putting the prices (crafted armor mostly) knew what they were doing… they shot themselves in their own feet when they decided 1.5 mil was decent enough for a crafted lvl 70 item..

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When people are selling Sarngas for 500k-1mill on legacy servers a week after launch then claiming not to have suspected the people buying them were RMT strikes me as disingenuous

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It's at least partially the seller's own fault for putting their goods up for ridiculously outrageous prices. People would be much less tempted to buy RMT gil if prices were reasonable.

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That's fine. Most items were marked up 100+ times what they should have been anyway. That's what tempted people to buy RMT gil to purchase them….

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Come again?

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You were all in the cycle.

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Nope, Legacy here, let’s just say I started with a bit more than 500k, so did a crap ton of other players.

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What is being said is that: normal players cannot reach 500k through normal play questing and such. There wasn't enough gil income in the game.

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Sigh, this again… do not confuse macro with micro econ, the game economy as a whole, especially on non-legacy servers, have a general lack of gil coming into the system. That however, does not mean there is a lack of economic activity – people can still earn money from other players, they are not required to rely solely on pre-existing gil fountains.

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Players started selling stuff that would normally would have sold for 10-30k for 70k.

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I find it humorous that you can determine what the normal stable price of an item should be on a new server with a new economy.

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Crafters started buying that crap and selling the crafted items for 1-7 million.

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Where are people coming up with this 7 mil figure? Even on my legacy server the highest they got was a bit beyond 2 mil, which was completely justified given those were the 18-tomestone item recipes.

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Gil buyers then in their laziness started buying gil to get the 20 million gil required to get that gear.

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They, and they alone, are responsible for their action. They have always existed in every MMO, and they will always exist for a myriad of different reasons, “laziness” being only one of them.

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The gil had to be removed from the market. It was removed.

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Negative, the economy has to be balanced, something SE have done a terrible job at so far, even without the RMTs. How SE goes about it is up to them, but if these allegations are true, then they’ve taken one of the least PR/player friendly route.

I guess you don't know what overpriced means. English? hablas español?

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still no meaning of overpriced to be seen. So yeah you fail at english and economics. My economics are fine thank you

Just a theory, but if someone told me that the reason these sorts of threads were being deleted was because, much like the (same sex) marriage threads, they degenerated into a back-and-forth insult-fest and not because of some sort of desire to censor, I would believe them.

So is RMT are getting banned or is it just crafters being punished who get gil from RMT??

There's no sense of justice??

Sadly this shows how corporate dictatorship is shaping our real life's, your guilty until proven innocent, just look at how SE is handling this and also how corps deal with piracy, and sheep are now acting the same with the whole your guilty act, I would love to know if SE actually show evidence to the victims or just ignore pleas

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Originally Posted by ashikenshin

I guess you don't know what overpriced means. English? hablas español?

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I bet you thought you were witty didn't you? how cute.

now who died and made you the boss to determine what is overpriced? Just because you feel something is too expensive for you does not actually make it "overpriced".

As a producer of goods, an item is overpriced if the price point rises to the level where it pushes the demand low enough to negatively affect your total profit.

seriously, go back to school for some remedial classes, your econ teacher is crying.

These people who are blaming crafters for getting banned because they overprices their items are fucking retarted and need to stop. Its basic economics that they are forgetting completely.

Player A hits level 50 crafter first on te server. He makes some kickass armor and puts it for sale for 1mill gil. THIS IS WHERE THINGS GO WRONG. Here, what SHOULD happen in a healthy game, is no one buys it because no one has that money. Then, player B hits 50. He puts it at a lower price. So do playees c d and e. People can start affording to buy these items now so they sell The economy moves forward and stabalizes. Player A sells his things at market value. No one is in the wrong.

BECAUSE OF RMT AND THE PEOPLE WHO BUY IT, that never happens. Player A has tje only robe on the server for sale. Player Jerkface decides to buy Gil to buy it. Player A says cool that makes money! Puts more up. More players RMT to buy it. Market history is extremely overpriced. New crafters continue to sell at an inflated price. The marjet never finds its balance. There are craftes amd those that rmt and no one else can afford anything. The economy is fuxd.

Its not the crafters at fault. Its the gil buyers and sellers. THEY are to blame, and they sestroy the econony as we have all witnessed. Banning craftwrs doesnt fix anything except stopping legit players from playing.

typing on cell phones is fun

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Originally Posted by scaredchimp

Sadly this shows how corporate dictatorship is shaping our real life's, your guilty until proven innocent, just look at how SE is handling this and also how corps deal with piracy, and sheep are now acting the same with the whole your guilty act, I would love to know if SE actually show evidence to the victims or just ignore pleas

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By "corporate", you mean USA and Russia? Because Guantanamo Bay and the capture of political adversaries do speak a language.

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Originally Posted by ashikenshin

Good thing is no matter how much crying there is on the forums, the gil won't make it back. Duped gil is duped gil no matter how you got it. If you were stupid enough to convince yourself that selling crap for 2+ million of gil was awesome when there were countless "no way to make gil in this game" threads were on the forums then you are clueless.

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Shows that you didn't read these threads carefully, some were selling items for 10-15k and still got their gil slashed.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

When people are selling Sarngas for 500k-1mill on legacy servers a week after launch then claiming not to have suspected the people buying them were RMT strikes me as disingenuous. That's twice to three times what the average player completes the main storyline with.

It's harsh for the crafter, very harsh, but hopefully they only have to do this dragnet once or twice to cut RMT off at the root.

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When a Sarnga requires 9 sap at 40-50k each the crafter has already invested close to 500k just in mats to make that Sarnga. One DD class could have spent a day grinding out the tomes for that and in one single day made at least 500k, just selling mats to crafters to buy the weapon they wanted. You can't place all the blame on crafters; the market sets the price of the materials, and the crafters set their prices in part on what it costs to make something.

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Originally Posted by scaredchimp

Sadly this shows how corporate dictatorship is shaping our real life's, your guilty until proven innocent, just look at how SE is handling this and also how corps deal with piracy, and sheep are now acting the same with the whole your guilty act, I would love to know if SE actually show evidence to the victims or just ignore pleas

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United States of America only rules half of Northa America. A lot of nations' justice system is still adpoting guilty until proven innocent. Japan, South Korea, and many other south-east Asia nations are adpoting same logic.

Innocent until proven guilty? O.J Simperson's case, *cough

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Originally Posted by Vanidin

When a Sarnga requires 9 sap at 40-50k each the crafter has already invested close to 500k just in mats to make that Sarnga. One DD class could have spent a day grinding out the tomes for that and in one single day made at least 500k, just selling mats to crafters to buy the weapon they wanted. You can't place all the blame on crafters; the market sets the price of the materials, and the crafters set their prices in part on what it costs to make something.

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By everyone of the crafters same reasoning, if 40 to 50k for the material is too high then don't buy it. Go farm it yourself.

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

United States of America only rules half of Northa America. A lot of nations' justice system is still adpoting guilty until proven innocent. Japan, South Korea, and many other south-east Asia nations are adpoting same logic.

Innocent until proven guilty? O.J Simperson's case, *cough

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Yea, I bet you think it's better to execute 100 innocents than to let one get away right? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Sadebreth

By everyone of the crafters same reasoning, if 40 to 50k for the material is too high then don't buy it. Go farm it yourself.

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Oh god, not this again...

Opportunity Cost, go google it and learn what it means. Manually gathering the item yourself does not change the market value of said item.

Why would one gather 450k gil's worth of materials and then produce a product to sell at below that cost? You'd make more profit simply by selling the base material by themselves.

It is my sincerest hope that most of you do not ever attempt to operate a business, or your own retirement account for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

Yea, I bet you think it's better to execute 100 innocents than to let one get away right? :rolleyes:

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Pay attention to what I quote. Using this logic doesnt mean they are corporate dictator? :rolleyes: Japan and South Korea are using same logic, are you saying they are nation running by dictator?

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Pay attention to what I quote. Using this logic doesnt mean they are corporate dictator? :rolleyes: Japan and South Korea are using same logic, are you saying they are nation running by dictator?

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Apologies for not making myself clear, i was meant to aim my logic at corporate countries (this are the ones that value profit over human life's, Capitalism at its worse USA, UK the main ones) OJ Simpson btw was a special case due to celebrity and his colour, if he had been jailed there would have been riots stating racism, as this was before the whole profit mantra was norm, companies were still using the revenue is king approach meaning service was better and just grabbing your money at all costs (legal or corrupt governments) was not valued as high.

People who commit crimes always say they are innocent.......
FF11
Every Video of GM Jail or otherwise ................player/s say they are innocent.........
Xbox Live ..........achievement hack , everyone "I am innocent"
Goes on and on.......

Anyone playing MMOs can see how RMT work , heck they say it in shout.........
"Invite me to Flist...blah blah"

Player puts item on Market through Retainer for over priced number of Gil Bought ..........Gil Seller Buys it

Heck on STO , the only way you could transfer Money from your main to your Alt was by putting Garbage on Market for retarded over prices..

If you had your gil taken , its highly likely you were apart of some RMT trade one way or another.
Illegal Gil is Illegal gil .

Gil Buying seems to be doing well , as the spam is out of control......

Funny part is that only a very Small majority were effected by this , and yet there are still a vast Majority crafters/ gatherers walking around with Millions untouched by this ..........
Just seems like some earned theirs totally legit and others had RMT involved one way or another.

No one in Prison or Jail has ever said they were Guilty and deserved their fate .

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Originally Posted by Overon

No one in Prison or Jail has ever said they were Guilty and deserved their fate .

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What a load of garbage. So many guilty people admit to being guilty. And so many innocent people fight for their legitimate innocence. Just recently a load of people were released from prison because they were found innocent upon the revelation of newly acquired DNA evidence. You don't live in a black and white world, snap out of it.

I truly love these threads

I would love to know one person who ever cheated to own up to his/her cheating ?
Please someone come forth and admit you bought Gil and got caught and you should have been..............
^ This is not going to happen because in a world were we have criminals committing crime on a daily basis , no one ever admits to their crimes .........They are all innocent.

I will be waiting.....................................I really doubt anyone will but its a fact people are buying gil and they are making money .
They do not spam to waste time , they spam because they are making money to afford the time and effort to spam.

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Originally Posted by funkin

What a load of garbage. So many guilty people admit to being guilty. And so many innocent people fight for their legitimate innocence. Just recently a load of people were released from prison because they were found innocent upon the revelation of newly acquired DNA evidence. You don't live in a black and white world, snap out of it.

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Truth is, you need to either relax or quit this game. You are not getting your gils back in any mean. S/E clearly stated that gil invovled in RMT transaction are counterfiet. In real life, good luck to you if you try to claim counterfiet loss from a bank or government. Many business just put it to loss.

If gils are that easy to make as you claim they are. The time you spend on here complaining already let you to recover the loss.

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Originally Posted by funkin

What a load of garbage. So many guilty people admit to being guilty. And so many innocent people fight for their legitimate innocence. Just recently a load of people were released from prison because they were found innocent upon the revelation of newly acquired DNA evidence. You don't live in a black and white world, snap out of it.

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Again, no one admits to their crimes ..........They all call out "I am innocent"
Yet people are still getting robbed , killed ,and rapped .

Heck HLN and Court TV even show how the Guilty without a Doubt can claim innocence ..............even though everything points to their Guilt .
People cheat and its sad .

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Truth is, you need to either relax or quit this game. You are not getting your gils back in any mean. S/E clearly stated that gil invovled in RMT transaction are counterfiet. In real life, good luck to you if you try to claim counterfiet loss from a bank or government. Many business just put it to loss.

If gils are that easy to make as you claim they are. The time you spend on here complaining already let you to recover the loss.

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In real life if you have Counterfeit Money , ownership is 9/10ths of the law , those who have it are guilty of it no matter innocent or not .
I agree with everything you say ^^

Those who ended up with "Bought Gil" and just getting suspended and getting their gil gained by RMT taken , with them buying it or not .........

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Originally Posted by Overon

Again, no one admits to their crimes ..........They all call out "I am innocent"
Yet people are still getting robbed , killed ,and rapped .

Heck HLN and Court TV even show how the Guilty without a Doubt can claim innocence ..............even though everything points to their Guilt .
People cheat and its sad .

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There are guilty people who gets away.

There are also innocent people who are wrongfully convicted.

No system is perfect, and it is definitely not just one or the other, both happens on a daily basis, to claim otherwise is being purely delusional.

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Originally Posted by Sadebreth

So far this is what others in some threads that were deleted have admitted to. First to 50. Put high end stuff on the AH for prices that they knew no one would be able to afford except those that bought gil (we are talking in the millions). That is what I have gathered from most of the threads I have read on the issue.

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If the bolded statement is the case, then they're really accepting some blame in the process. I know you're paying me with dirty money, and then I'm surprised "the man" comes and takes it away? Hard to be sympathetic to that. I'd have to say it borders on being an accessory to the crime.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

There are guilty people who gets away.

There are also innocent people who are wrongfully convicted.

No system is perfect, and it is definitely not just one or the other, both happens on a daily basis, to claim otherwise is being purely delusional.

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No we live in a world where we break laws , by Reality or Imaginary(Fantasy/Games) and then when caught we go on rants claiming we are innocent .

I personally think MMO companies should itemize a List for all to see on every Banned/Suspended Character , that way we can all know what cheaters they are !

Edit: If we had that we could all look up So and SO "I am Innocent" and copy and paste their Skeletons and post them in threads like these !

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Originally Posted by Overon

I truly love these threads

I would love to know one person who ever cheated to own up to his/her cheating ?
Please someone come forth and admit you bought Gil and got caught and you should have been..............
^ This is not going to happen because in a world were we have criminals committing crime on a daily basis , no one ever admits to their crimes .........They are all innocent.

I will be waiting.....................................I really doubt anyone will but its a fact people are buying gil and they are making money .
They do not spam to waste time , they spam because they are making money to afford the time and effort to spam.

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I'm pretty sure that if you got banned, you can't post on the forums anyway.