#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by SamLeens

How do you know that? and your feelings don't count as proof.


Thats called "moving on". Not everyone wants to stay in the past.


You should move on too. I mean, who cares about ShB when we're all in Dawntrail. Well, maybe you're still in ShB.. who knows.


Where? When? How do you know that? And let's not dwell on the past for a change, but talk about the present.

it all sounds so deliberately malicious. if se is the villain, i wonder why you keep playing the villain's game.

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How do we know? BECAUSE WE WERE THERE. And why does SHB matter? BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T UPDATED HEALERS SINCE SHB.

Go troll somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Wow, so pointing out things that historically did happen is malicious now.

Ok, let's cancel history and not learn from the past!

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So you can't provide any evidence for your statements and are now switching to the topic of history. That's an evasive maneuver that you can do, but it definitely reduces the credibility of the statements.
As a german, i can confirm that history is important. But it's not about living in the past or comparing every aspect with the past. The past should not be forgotten so that it doesn't repeat itself. Not forgetting and living in it or relating everything to it are two different things.

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Originally Posted by SamLeens

So you can't provide any evidence for your statements and are now switching to the topic of history. That's an evasive maneuver that you can do, but it definitely reduces the credibility of the statements.
As a german, i can confirm that history is important. But it's not about living in the past or comparing every aspect with the past. The past should not be forgotten so that it doesn't repeat itself. Not forgetting and living in it or relating everything to it are two different things.

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If you wanted evidence, you could very easily read the patch notes.

It's not my obligation to dig through patch notes for hours just to convince someone on the internet.

You want to dismiss me? Go ahead. You're not the one that needs to understand the design issues, SE is.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poqu6p7F8S4
EX2 too with a PLD tank and 7 DPS.

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Looking forward to seeing everyone who is striking to clear with this comp :)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

1) the fact that square buffed MP regen on aetherflow/energy drain and said it was because a lack of MP on SCH, same as giving MP to draw, they specifically said the mana economy of those two was broken and the jobs didn’t function because of it. they also changed old sleeve draw specifically because they said it didn’t work

2) not everyone wants the modern job design either but apparently we don’t get a choice

3) because these problems from ShB still haven’t been fixed

4) DT BLM is an example, the ShB healers are another, 4.2 WAR is another, 5.0 MCH, 7.0 MNK, it actually happens relatively often

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Hello Aravell. I didnt know you had more than one account. It's nice that you found more than just "history" to justify your statements.

1) that doesnt confirm that they "never tested any of the changes".
2) "until SGE launched with the exact same obscene amounts of healing for free, then suddenly people are somehow ok with it" that's the point i was trying to make, and that's still called "moving on" or "growing." You change your mind about a lot of things throughout your life. That's normal.
It's weird playing an MMO and knowing it's a long-lasting game that changes things, but then wanting to play old classes instead. It's a contradiction in terms.
3)No, according to your text that was in the past. I don't see that it's a current problem either.
4) This is a list without sources. Its just as valid as the text before.

You want proof how about this then from the statements regarding job adjustments before 7.01 dropped. https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...6321a515d36909

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While it was our aim to preserve monk’s playstyle from the Patch 6.x series, several changes to their core abilities─stacks of Fury chief among them─have significantly changed how it feels to play the job.
We discovered certain actions had incorrect potencies, as well as an error pertaining to the requirements to apply stacks of Fury. We plan to address these issues in Patch 7.01, which should result in improved effectiveness of area-of-effect attacks. This will also necessitate minor adjustments to the job HUD. My apologies again for monk’s inadequate performance, which presently differs from what we previously announced.

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Before learning the action Umbral Soul, black mage has difficulty recovering MP. We plan to address this with adjustments in Patch 7.01, with plans to make further adjustments to action potencies in Patch 7.05.

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an issue compounded by the removal of damage from dark knight and gunbreaker movement abilities.

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Edit: yes they did fix these in 7.01 but the issue stands that two issues in particular, mnk aoe and black mage new mp regen on level prior 76. This didn't catch their issue.

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Originally Posted by SamLeens

Hello Aravell. I didnt know you had more than one account. It's nice that you found more than just "history" to justify your statements.

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You just lost all credibility the moment you stooped down to "Everyone who disagrees with me are alts of the same person".

How about you do your own research instead of hounding other people to do it for you, eh? It's not like you'll listen to other people anyway, since everyone who disagrees with you is the same person.

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Originally Posted by Isala

How do we know? BECAUSE WE WERE THERE. And why does SHB matter? BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T UPDATED HEALERS SINCE SHB.

Go troll somewhere else.

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Well, i was there too, by the way. It's not like it happened 90 years ago and only a few witnesses to the events are still alive.

Isn't it ironic that i show serious interest, ask for facts and then get called a troll?!

This reaction tells me that this is not a serious discussion, but a bubble in which only negative statements can be communicated.

> "I show serious interest"
> Gets a serious answer by someone.
> "Oh hi, you must be the same person because there's no way 2 people would disagree with me"

What a joke.

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Originally Posted by SamLeens

1) that doesnt confirm that they "never tested any of the changes".

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On this specifically, I think there is a point to be made about testing in that if SE did test it they really screwed it up with having jobs that were MP negative. Other issues we have seen are with little things like the 7.0 MNK launch having potency issues, DRK and GNB gap closers having no enmity when they removed potency, when SE buffed Glare in EW and made Afflatus Misery a DPS loss. It's just a concerning trend that SE is missing pretty obvious things that you would notice either through reading tooltips or testing it for a little bit.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

You just lost all credibility the moment you stooped down to "Everyone who disagrees with me are alts of the same person".

How about you do your own research instead of hounding other people to do it for you, eh? It's not like you'll listen to other people anyway, since everyone who disagrees with you is the same person.

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are we on the same forum? i mean it's really funny. i'm talking to you and then someone else is giving me the answers i expected from you. so i named them "aravell". and i still find it funny that someone feels like they almost have to speak on your behalf because you didn't say anything.

The sad thing is that, in addition to the technical aspect, you are also accusing Square Enix employees of things that you can't even justify.
You just make claims without any basis and when asked for more information, you change the subject or look for another reason to end the conversation.

These are real, living people that you are talking nonsense about.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

> "I show serious interest"
> Gets a serious answer by someone.
> "Oh hi, you must be the same person because there's no way 2 people would disagree with me"

What a joke.

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Where does the logic come from that i react like this when someone "doesn't agree with me"? Please don't judge others based on yourself.
The person answered the questions to YOU. That's not even a difference of opinion, that's called a conversation.

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Originally Posted by SamLeens

are we on the same forum? i mean it's really funny. i'm talking to you and then someone else is giving me the answers i expected from you. so i named them "aravell". and i still find it funny that someone feels like they almost have to speak on your behalf because you didn't say anything.

The sad thing is that, in addition to the technical aspect, you are also accusing Square Enix employees of things that you can't even justify.
You just make claims without any basis and when asked for more information, you change the subject or look for another reason to end the conversation.

These are real, living people that you are talking nonsense about.

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Real, living people that made mistakes. Mistakes which they admitted to. You would know this if you played the jobs when they were broken and if you read the patch notes.

Being human does not absolve someone of criticism. I also never said anything bad about the employees, I only said they're fine with releasing things in a broken state, which is a statement of fact, not an insult.

You should stop holding the dev team above criticism when you seem clearly ignorant of all the mistakes they've made and admitted to making.

That's why I brought up history btw, not to deflect or whatever you accused me of. The dev team has a clear history of making very bad changes with little thought about how it affects everything else, they've even apologised for some. Like how removing ED from SCH broke their resource generation and removing Hagakure broke SAM's loop. You can't seriously tell me those 2 changes were well thought out, considering thar they broke the job's gameplay loop.

Also, your little joke is unamusing, I didn't respond to you immediately because i have a life to live outside of the forum.

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Originally Posted by jdtuggey

I feel like that should be celebrated as an achievement ?

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Creates player perception and player perception is the hardest to balance jobs for. The game doesn't really need reasons to break intended compositions for real or perceived gains to then sprouts asking which job they should pick when moving after free trial because they are white mage and healers aren't used in whatever streamer, static they are fans of.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

On this specifically, I think there is a point to be made about testing in that if SE did test it they really screwed it up with having jobs that were MP negative. Other issues we have seen are with little things like the 7.0 MNK launch having potency issues, DRK and GNB gap closers having no enmity when they removed potency, when SE buffed Glare in EW and made Afflatus Misery a DPS loss. It's just a concerning trend that SE is missing pretty obvious things that you would notice either through reading tooltips or testing it for a little bit.

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I can completely understand what you are saying. I accept and agree 100%. Something has gone very wrong.

For me, there is just a big difference between saying "they never tested any of the changes" without providing any more facts, or saying "they screwed up somewhere, look into it" and then facts follow.

Thanks for the clarification.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Real, living people that made mistakes. Mistakes which they admitted to. You would know this if you played the jobs when they were broken and if you read the patch notes.

Being human does not absolve someone of criticism. I also never said anything bad about the employees, I only said they're fine with releasing things in a broken state, which is a statement of fact, not an insult.

You should stop holding the dev team above criticism when you seem clearly ignorant of all the mistakes they've made and admitted to making.

That's why I brought up history btw, not to deflect or whatever you accused me of. The dev team has a clear history of making very bad changes with little thought about how it affects everything else, they've even apologised for some. Like how removing ED from SCH broke their resource generation and removing Hagakure broke SAM's loop. You can't seriously tell me those 2 changes were well thought out, considering thar they broke the job's gameplay loop.

Also, your little joke is unamusing, I didn't respond to you immediately because i have a life to live outside of the forum.

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i read all the patch notes and played ast and drk first. That doesn't change what you said and the fact that you don't give me any answers and probably never will. You could have just said you didn't want to answer or ignored me. That would have been fine too.

So when you say "they never tested any of the changes" as if that was a fact and not just your interpretation, do you mean that in a positive way?

No, don't get me wrong. I don't care if it's about the developer or another player. Statements thrown out without facts as if they were true when in reality it's just what the person is feeling at the time are too often misleading.

Your first reaction was to talk about history. you decided what kind of text you wanted to write so i don't know what that has to do with your everyday life, but i'll just leave it as it is.

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Originally Posted by SamLeens

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You keep saying I won't give answers when in the first post which you quoted, I already gave 2 examples of jobs not working, indicative of a lack of testing. In a subsequent post, I gave one more example.

All 3 of those examples led to a change/reversion later on btw, so it's not a new direction they were going for.

There's also the very recent example in 7.01, where the dev team oversight led the MNK rotation to be DK>BS>repeat, that's something which the community caught in the patch notes but somehow the dev team didn't catch before release.

Also a very old example was that old unintended interaction where WAR got 100% critical heals from the back during RI, that also shows they didn't test thoroughly.

But you can also choose to pretend that I haven't given any answer, it's no skin off my back.

Here, I'll do it myself (from the Patch 5.05 notes):

https://i.gyazo.com/6b7e8a6e8bfa8e83...f01f24cf94.png

AST was so bad on SHB release, that some of its actions had to be doubled in strength AND doubled in how frequently they were up (looking at Celestial Opposition)

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Originally Posted by SamLeens

Your first reaction was to talk about history. you decided what kind of text you wanted to write so i don't know what that has to do with your everyday life, but i'll just leave it as it is.

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They left you to Google any of the expansions' x.05 or x.1 patch notes, which takes all of 3 minutes to scan the relevant sections of fully across ARR and every expansion since, seeing as you seemed unable to make use of the prior examples yourself.

You then used wording that would reasonably be taken as an accusation of sock-puppeting to dismiss the information granted you when someone did that for you, all because you needed the... what... satisfaction(?) of the same person asking you, in effect, to do your homework to then do it for you? And immediately, at that, as if they were obliged to be terminally online?

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Originally Posted by SamLeens

So when you say "they never tested any of the changes" as if that was a fact and not just your interpretation, do you mean that in a positive way?

No, don't get me wrong. I don't care if it's about the developer or another player. Statements thrown out without facts as if they were true when in reality it's just what the person is feeling at the time are too often misleading.

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To give an another example, see Bow Mage, which did not even work in the way they thought it did, and started off as a literal DPS loss because they hadn't accounted for the loss of auto-attack damage, something clear to players within a single run using it.

While "released without any testing" could already have been reasonable discourse in the vein of slight hyperbole (for "there was *seemingly*/"effectively" no testing"), there's also a few places to point at for decent evidence of it (where going untested would have been a less egregious error than having tested the fundamentally broken thing and thinking, even after that testing, that it was fine).

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Originally Posted by Aravell

You keep saying I won't give answers when in the first post which you quoted, I already gave 2 examples of jobs not working, indicative of a lack of testing. In a subsequent post, I gave one more example.

All 3 of those examples led to a change/reversion later on btw, so it's not a new direction they were going for.

There's also the very recent example in 7.01, where the dev team oversight led the MNK rotation to be DK>BS>repeat, that's something which the community caught in the patch notes but somehow the dev team didn't catch before release.

Also a very old example was that old unintended interaction where WAR got 100% critical heals from the back during RI, that also shows they didn't test thoroughly.

But you can also choose to pretend that I haven't given any answer, it's no skin off my back.

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Okay, wait. There were two things i was questioning.
1) how do you know that "they never tested any of the changes"?
and
2) where? when? how do you know that "they're perfectly happy with massively changing jobs with little to no warning"?

did i miss the answers to these questions? if so, i don't mind reading through both forum pages again. i'm going to take a little break soon anyway.

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Originally Posted by SamLeens

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1) Can you say with 100% certainty that they did test anything when there's been so many bugs and oversights?

2) If they haven't changed the job again, then it stands that they're perfectly happy with what they did.

Anything else?

It's so so weird how the people trolling and dismissing this strike are never healers, always tanks or dps, but are trying their darnest to keep healers in their sorry state.

I do wonder what their stances on social strikes or minority rights are in real life, truly a mystery, guess we'll never know...

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Originally Posted by Aravell

1) Can you say with 100% certainty that they did test anything when there's been so many bugs and oversights?

2) If they haven't changed the job again, then it stands that they're perfectly happy with what they did.

Anything else?

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1) Instead of not answering again, just say that YOU think this must be the case.

2) that is what you believe and is not based on any facts.

I'm glad we were able to clear that up.

have a great week and lots of fun in final. bye.

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Originally Posted by SamLeens

1) Instead of not answering again, just say that YOU think this must be the case.

2) that is what you believe and is not based on any facts.

I'm glad we were able to clear that up.

have a great week and lots of fun in final. bye.

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Ah yes, the strongest retort of someone who doesn't have a point to make: "That's what YOU think!".

I'm glad we could clear up that you're not here for any positive reason. Goodbye.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Ah yes, the strongest retort of someone who doesn't have a point to make: "That's what YOU think!".

I'm glad we could clear up that you're not here for any positive reason. Goodbye.

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Aha.. "Oh yes, the sharpest answer from someone who has nothing to say": Answer a question with a counter-question.
I would really be interested in your answer, but at this point it's a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poqu6p7F8S4
EX2 too with a PLD tank and 7 DPS.

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I was gonna post about this, but you (soundly) beat me to it.
I know people will go "it's top players" or "it's inconsistent"... but I still feel this should be impossible.
I actually went over the log and while the PLD did "sacrifice" himself a bit, casting 9 Clemencies, the RDM only had to cast 2 Vercures (so barely had to deviate from optimal).
It really shows how potent party mitigation is where it basically can replace two healers as long as people aren't stepping in bad.
I don't even think this is that hard in terms of execution, the bulk of the work is figuring out the mitigation plan- once that's down it seems to be fairly consistent, just going by their health in most mechanics.
I don't know how I feel about a game built around a trinity where one of the roles equates 11 gcds in a higher end fight...

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Originally Posted by SamLeens

Hello Aravell. I didnt know you had more than one account.

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Finally! A genuine genius has graced this thread.
After hundreds of pages and thousands of replies, you alone have discovered the great secret!
It's true.
We're all Aravell.

/wtfdidthatreallyjusthappen?

I’m still trying to figure out if I should be honoured or insulted that I’m apparently aravell

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Originally Posted by Sharawiwi

It's so so weird how the people trolling and dismissing this strike are never healers, always tanks or dps, but are trying their darnest to keep healers in their sorry state.

I do wonder what their stances on social strikes or minority rights are in real life, truly a mystery, guess we'll never know...

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Honest question - if you had a more complex rotation but did the same damage your currently doing - would that be acceptable?

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Originally Posted by Ayan_Calvesse

Honest question - if you had a more complex rotation but did the same damage your currently doing - would that be acceptable?

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Of course ? I've not seen anyone asking for healers to do more than their 8% of the boss (including raid buffs). Hell, I was happy with EW AST because I had to think with the card systems.

And personally, I'd like if SE stopped butchering every healers job identity to cater to the fabled casual who is stressed about any responsability, and for the sake of over simplification.
DT has made every healer into a watered down WHM (even WHM is the most bland it has ever been). The consequences of this are obvious and terrible, but many people here explained them already.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m still trying to figure out if I should be honoured or insulted that I’m apparently aravell

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How will this affect your ranking on the casual spreadsheet?

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Originally Posted by Sharawiwi

Of course ? I've not seen anyone asking for healers to do more than their 8% of the boss (including raid buffs). Hell, I was happy with EW AST because I had to think with the card systems.

And personally, I'd like if SE stopped butchering every healers job identity to cater to the fabled casual who is stressed about any responsability, and for the sake of over simplification.
DT has made every healer into a watered down WHM (even WHM is the most bland it has ever been). The consequences of this are obvious and terrible, but many people here explained them already.

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Admittedly a significant portion of the takes I am seeing really gives me "smizzard" vibes which is why I ask. I think the problem is that you need something for the more laid back players to play. As folks running the current 2 Ex's can attest there are lots of healers that struggle with just the healing itself without even considering the damage done into account - the problem is splitting the difference. I agree with the notion of giving healers something else to do during the fights - I cannot help but notice that the amount of Esuna-able debuffs in late game content is pretty much non-existant for example. I would like to see healers have means to have some sort of interaction outside of healing/damage given how tightly FF tries to balance that; thats why I am reluctant to support tweaking the DPS rotation because I feel healing support will generally suffer and open the door to demands to make healer essentially a RDPs that brings healing instead of party utility.

I mean...perhaps WHM having a means to provide mana...maybe making Astro cards have actual impact outside of being reskinned healing mechanics? Stuff like that; even stuff like a KB resist usable on others or some such. I wonder if scholar became more popular because of the fact that it simply has a run buff.

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Originally Posted by SamLeens

snip.

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Bruh what. The dev team has, on multiple occasions, come out and openly admitted they didn't calculate things properly/didn't calculate them at all (usually while also gaslighting the playerbase for using "unintended rotations").
I can add even more examples:
- Wrong NIN Aeolian Edge math (making skipping it better, I forgot which patch this was);
- Blizzard IV skip being optimal on BLM in 4.0;
- Bugged RDM mana penalty also applying on the melee combo, making it possible to use more melee combos than intended in 4.0;
- AST running out of mana and literally not having enough healing potency to heal through Gordias savage in 3.0 and 3.1 (people mathed it out);
- DNC stacking on BLM being optimal in 5.0;
- Abyssos 8S door boss being basically unclearable with some comps.
For DT, people have mentioned the MNK nonsense, but let's not forget PCT cancelling Aetherhues under subtractive to get more gauge. On most of these, especially the DT ones, the team came out and openly said it was an oversight and/or mistake. Either SE has no accurate process of testing these things, or their process is so broken they consistently make gross mistakes. This happens all the time, and they sometimes take months to correct it.
You're on some serious copium if you don't think healer numbers being off isn't likely to be a miscalculation/oversight on their part.
SE's balance process is a disaster area.

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

- Wrong NIN Aeolian Edge math (making skipping it better, I forgot which patch this was);

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Which one? Cause there have been a few instances where NIN had to be adjusted because player skill > dev testing.

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Originally Posted by Ayan_Calvesse

Admittedly a significant portion of the takes I am seeing really gives me "smizzard" vibes which is why I ask. I think the problem is that you need something for the more laid back players to play. As folks running the current 2 Ex's can attest there are lots of healers that struggle with just the healing itself without even considering the damage done into account - the problem is splitting the difference. I agree with the notion of giving healers something else to do during the fights - I cannot help but notice that the amount of Esuna-able debuffs in late game content is pretty much non-existant for example. I would like to see healers have means to have some sort of interaction outside of healing/damage given how tightly FF tries to balance that; thats why I am reluctant to support tweaking the DPS rotation because I feel healing support will generally suffer and open the door to demands to make healer essentially a RDPs that brings healing instead of party utility.

I mean...perhaps WHM having a means to provide mana...maybe making Astro cards have actual impact outside of being reskinned healing mechanics? Stuff like that; even stuff like a KB resist usable on others or some such. I wonder if scholar became more popular because of the fact that it simply has a run buff.

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I will answer honestly, but the first part of your message comes a bit as disingenuous.

You cannot cater the Level 100 Extreme content to the players who are "laid back", which too often means they don't have half their spells binded, nor anti kb, have 50% gcd uptime or less, never bothered to watch a single guide etc.

There is the need to be a walling content who isn't clearable by people who refuses to improve just a tiny bit, especially when said content is the latest, hardest (of DT), released one. It is impossible to make every fight clearable by the most "laid back" players, unless you want everyone enjoying challenge and difficulty to leave the game (which is happening already for the healer role), and it doesn't need to be.
There are multiple solutions SE could implement to make the laid back players confortable on any content (litteraly just release a togglable story mode option for duty finder), without them litteraly griefing others or whining about the tiniest shred of difficulty, and consequentially SE making the game boring.

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, no dosis bot SGE who hasn't unlock panhaima because they couldnt be bothered to do their job quests should be able to clear lvl 100 Ex (not knowing how to play your job in the most basic way at level 100 is griefing, remember that letargic play is against the ToS).


And regarding the healers personal mechanic, there is a million options available. SCH is seemingly popular I would guess because it can be leveled with SMN (often resulting in SMN player wanting an instant queue as healer, and not knowing anything about SCH)

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Originally Posted by Aravell

> "I show serious interest"
> Gets a serious answer by someone.
> "Oh hi, you must be the same person because there's no way 2 people would disagree with me"

What a joke.

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That guy is doing textbook sealioning, so it's probably best to thank him for the thread bump and ignore otherwise.

I think the lethargic gameplay point is too nebulous to gauge - I seen a similar argument as to why a tank was expected to pick up mobs when a DPS decides to run ahead and pull a 2nd pack; the question of baselines come up and I generally use the trust system as a crude gauge of a roles "expected" behavior in that group content - eveything beyond which is optional and thus why we do not have trusts for EX's/Savages/Ultimates.

I don't think a player should be expected to watch a guide for endgame content (in the notion of a EX) as I feel that should be a sort of intro where sub-par performance is not the difference between success/failure; you might know the class but you might just be slow to respond...have bad reflexes...get distracted easily etc etc.

I do feel if healers need more to do the answer is similar to scholars and abilities like expedience; a nice to have and a definite boon in more challenging content such as savage; but not a deal breaker in stuff like extremes. I think the "laid-back" players do need things to do late game to challenge themselves somewhat and then decide if they want to go higher or if that was tough enough for them. If a person wishes to step it up into savage then at that point I don't really give them a pass on effort; as you are choosing to take on that challenge.

I feel we are not so much in disagreement but rather have different notions of the solution - I am always concerned with tweaking DPS numbers and my concern with complicating a healers DPS rotation will result in potential issues where sub-par players will suddenly cause issues in entry content like Ex's; and if you fix that issue then you will have exceptional players trivializing it. So thats why I worry about tweaking that math - Perhaps the answer is a healer similar to WAR/SMN where the class can meet that bar with generally a modest effort.

Keep in mind there are lots of players and we want more players for more chances to engage in group content; so we generally do not want to deter folks from trying the content; but amoung those players there is a multitude of reasons why they might not be "good" outside of being lazy or not understanding the class.

Do you think expert daily (it has expert in the name) should be clearable by 0 mits single pack puller tanks, 1 button bot healers, or dps doing less damage than a LB ? I personally think not, and it is toxic to the game for it to be possible.

Why do you think looking up the most basic guide about rotation and ogcds (if you know nothing about your job) is too much to ask for extremes ? It's a level 100 content, in a 10+ years of game, locked behind either a humongous amount of hours or 45€.

They already feel too challenged by the MSQ dungeons (and this isn't a local thing, it's worldwide), why do they choose to go in even harder content, when they themselves say the MSQ is already way too hard ?
They choose to subject themselves to fights they know will be impossible for them, and then complain.

But there is already a easy healer, there has been since StB, it's the WHM, very easy to play, not punitive, works generally for any content. Why do every healers need to be like this ? Can you imagine if every dps was reworked like SMN ? Or every tank like WAR and stripped down of their dps rotations ?

I don't think we want 0 efforts babies (because they have been pampered in every way possible) to go in EXs. They need to be walled hard on a content, so they either choose to improve or play less difficult content (plenty of it, it is the vast majority of the game, by far).

I'm sincerely so confused by your posts, either very good trolling because I keep engaging, or sadly a bit disconnected from the situation (no offense, but have you played healer a lot in DT ? And before ?).

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Originally Posted by Sharawiwi

Do you think expert daily (it has expert in the name) should be clearable by 0 mits single pack puller tanks, 1 button bot healers, or dps doing less damage than a LB ? I personally think not, and it is toxic to the game for it to be possible.

Why do you think looking up the most basic guide about rotation and ogcds (if you know nothing about your job) is too much to ask for extremes ? It's a level 100 content, in a 10+ years of game, locked behind either a humongous amount of hours or 45€.

They already feel too challenged by the MSQ dungeons (and this isn't a local thing, it's worldwide), why do they choose to go in even harder content, when they themselves say the MSQ is already way too hard ?
They choose to subject themselves to fights they know will be impossible for them, and then complain.

But there is already a easy healer, there has been since StB, it's the WHM, very easy to play, not punitive, works generally for any content. Why do every healers need to be like this ? Can you imagine if every dps was reworked like SMN ? Or every tank like WAR and stripped down of their dps rotations ?

I don't think we want 0 efforts babies (because they have been pampered in every way possible) to go in EXs. They need to be walled hard on a content, so they either choose to improve or play less difficult content (plenty of it, it is the vast majority of the game, by far).

I'm sincerely so confused by your posts, either very good trolling because I keep engaging, or sadly a bit disconnected from the situation (no offense, but have you played healer a lot in DT ? And before ?).

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This is very well said, and I think it sums up a good deal of the arguments out there.

Honestly for my own part, I really feel that Experts should be separate from MSQ, essentially optional max level dungeons so you don't get a situation where easier MSQ dungeons become the expert, and the harder ones fall into the level 90 dungeons, and the difficulty of each roulette becomes all over the place. That does no one any favors.

As for why people go into those higher level fights despite being objectively terrible--they want the bragging rights and shiny gear/titles. Very few people do high level content because they want to enjoy the challenge and experience of progressive wiping. They just want to feel badass with none of the work put in.

I'm kinda sad to hear if the EXs didn't get the same difficulty spike as Normals tho. That might have gone a long way to satisfying most parties.

All fair questions - I enjoy the discussion.

Yes; an it is quite possible for a healer to simply spam high heal to heal the tank using a singular mitigation (versus no mits as I don't recall any case of even the worst tanks never using any mitigations) I think we've all seen DPS doing less damage then a LB in Experts (least I have)

I think your missing my point on the "easy healer" as by the suggested course of action; WHM would not work the way it does now - that's why I was offering as a solution that preservation of a accessible healer for content around the Expert difficulty range. I am not against this as long as your not suddenly pulling the rug out from under players who have been getting by as a healer to compensate for general lack of ability to do rotations. (generally I find Tanks are pretty simple rotations - but tankseity is a thing that scares folks from the role.) We generally try to teach some of the role functions in the form of role quests;

I do not feel that a player should feel obligated to research openers and concepts such as rotational drift; or understanding the 2 minute burst window. In fact we actually do have a DPS measure in game folks often never venture to (proving grounds) which I frankly feel passing should be a requirement to enter Savage content. I feel Expert/EX is at a decent level and that the notion of injecting difficulty will only overall hurt the endgame health by reducing the endgame population.

As to address the MSQ I think that is not a large portion of the population and almost certainly not the people that are stepping a single foot in EX.

To be fair I hate healing - I leveled up Astro through dungeon running and didn't enjoy the gameplay of healers so I am more then willing to hear out the complaints and have made efforts to try to understand the desire for changes - I did the role quests and jazz but am by no means speaking as a authority on healers. However I do think that your being a bit harsh in the notion that folks in EX are "0 effort babies" and I am not encouraging that - however I think the problem is that many of the far more content focused players seem to be unable to agree where the middle ground is. For a bit of background I recall a time when MMO's did not have detailed boss walk throughts you could pour over and timers on every boss mechanics. Combat was simpler and generally if you read what your abilities did and used them - you got by. I noticed around the arrival of the WoW scene that rotations started to become a thing and optimizations to engage in some content became a concept which I am a bit torn on because it ultimately results in developers making content that some of the player base will never encounter; but thats just the evolution of the thing I figure.

Ultimately though I think you do need harder content; not necessarily harder gameplay.