#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I mean, I am still healing and I see people dying to mechanics all the time that are DPS. I had a run last night where I had to rez the two dps about 15 times. It was a lot. Tank and I were the only one who didn't die.

Does that make them glue sniffers who are just playing DPS to strike, or...are there just bad (or learning) players of all types and it's the healers and DPS who get 2 shot now?

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I've seen a lot more bad healers lately than tanks and DPS by a long shot.
Also a lot more instances of tanks holding up the party to try and solo a boss.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

But here's the thing: Getting Venn diagrammed by a mechanic or knocked off a platform or what-have-you has nothing to do with the number of DPS actions at one's disposal or being bad at healing. It's just... needing to learn fight mechanics.

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DT dungeons, mostly the level 100 MSQ one (or one of the trials) are looking for where the safe ground will be, combine it with another attack, solve timing, and position. All of that while looking at the party list and also not always seeing the boss castbar. If I'm not top or close as a healer I can get one-shotted. When I'm a tank then whatever. If a healer wipes and there is no rez for him then it's pretty much a wipe unless the boss is low and it's not fun to wipe the party just because of such a mechanic. I just refuse to play such game.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

For in the end, the more who can have have a "good time" playing the better.
It's about the quantity and not quality apparently.

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The problem is, while new players might join the role due to these changes, veteran players leave due to those same changes. So, all you're doing is trading player for player, and the net result is that the playerbase of the role doesn't shift as much as predicted, while also suffering from a 'brain drain' as the players who are skilled at the role give up on it. Effectively, they're sacrificing quality for quantity, and not even getting the quantity they wanted to get. Making it a bad deal for them and for the players because eventually, those 'new players' will become veterans too, and then they'll be in the same position us current veterans are. Then does the cycle repeat? Simplifying the gameplay even more, to appeal to yet another lower rung of the ladder? Eventually SE will run out of ladder to pull from.

More sensible would be to design the healers to have depth to strive for, and to give the 'struggling' players aid via the design of the job, so that they can more easily output a larger amount of the job's potential.

An anecdote would be, if I can swim well, and someone else cannot, is it fair to remake the swimming pool to be more shallow so that the weaker swimmer can feel more 'safe' (but limiting my swimming ability because I'm tall), or is it more sensible to give the weaker swimmer some sort of swimming aid (eg armbands, pool noodles etc) so that they can swim in the pool together with everyone else, without their skill being an impact on everyone who's confident in their swimming ability? Because when I was younger, I was the latter person, I couldn't swim well. And the instructors kept me, and some 5 other pupils (when we were like 7) in the kiddie pool. I felt awful, that they were being kept from having fun learning in the 'adult size pool', because I couldn't learn. I even asked them to let my classmates progress, and leave me alone to my failure, but the instructors couldn't even let me have that. And the worst part was, because I was so tall for my age, I wasn't able to learn in that kid's pool, because it wasn't big enough to support someone of my height. The instructors thought they were keeping me safe. Little did they know, they caused me to never learn how to swim. I ended up teaching myself in high school (age 13ish), in a proper size pool where I could freely move my legs.

So, I resent the idea that SE should decide to hold a job's design potential back (eg healers having any variety in damage actions removed in SHB), because someone else might be 'less skilled'. I've been that 'less skilled' person.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

Hmm..
I'm not saying that I'm disagreeing with you.
But seeing how Yoshi during the Pre-EW interview when he talked a little about Healers and he said that they didn't want to give them more DPS skills as it could make it more stressful for newer healers, this story only makes it feel like Yoshi would double down on it.
As in your story, those who don't often play healers, or healers in learning, Idunno, are portrayed as they're lacking in performance.
So Yoshi would probably just try and make them even easier to play so people who do have "difficulties" can still perform at an optimal level.
And/or even boost Tanks self sustains even further as some healers might be lacking. So to take off some of that burden from the healers the tanks can survive even better on their own.

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The problem is that healers are always the easy out for bad players so they get targeted. A tank being bad at managing their defensives and dies, healers fault, DPS walks into an attack and dies, healers fault. Healer dies after getting overwhelmed due to everyone's mistakes, healers fault.
You will NEVER erase this. Healer blame still exists even in the current brainless troglodyte healer design. It will always have this stressful aspect.

Japanese developers need to learn this isn't a design problem it's a player problem. Some people in this game are still scared tanking in dungeons despite how brainless paladin and warrior tanking is. Making healers incredibly boring terribly designed healer bots for a game designed around damage healers at its core will never work. I don't care what JP thinks, I don't care what casual healers think, everything I have said is a fact.

The thing about the healer strike that confuses me, didn't healers have more DPS buttons to press back in the day like sch or had more things to engage with such as cleric stance and astro cards? Wasn't healing not as easy for the masses due to cleric stance, and tanks using dps accessories and tanking in dps stance so aggro was more of a group effort.

Overall the game had more engagement back in the day but didn't people complain? Healers complained how annoying it was to heal tanks in dps stance, astro complained how the card system was not engaging because it was just fishing for balance and the RNG did not feel good. Community complained sch would have have the fairy heal and end up letting people die? How cleric stance was unfun and clunky leading to unnecessary deaths cause it was just annoying to manage.

SE listened, and now people are upset SE is not listening? They gave the masses what they want a more streamlined experience.

Edit: I am not saying how the DEVS handled stuff in the past was perfect but they did try, and the community asked for the removal of stuff not the adjustment. Yet now they are upset when the stuff is gone? People even stated that we should be careful what we ask of the DEV's because often times things do not get replaced when they are removed.

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Originally Posted by GartredZW

I've seen a lot more bad healers lately than tanks and DPS by a long shot.
Also a lot more instances of tanks holding up the party to try and solo a boss.

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Or maybe it's more obvious because most of the time you get DPS that can't Rez, especially with Picto and Viper being so popular right now? My last 3 days of tanks in a row on Expert didn't mitigate and I had to cure 2 spam to keep them alive when EVERYTHING was down on W2W. Probably not noticable to anyone but me.

Honestly seeing sub-par players of all roles, because:

1. The expansion is new, and most people in the expert dungeons have only run them 0 to 3 times each.
2. Lots of people take long breaks before expansions as they get bored, and may be rusty in general.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

The thing about the healer strike that confuses me, didn't healers have more DPS buttons to press back in the day like sch or had more things to engage with such as cleric stance and astro cards? Wasn't healing not as easy for the masses due to cleric stance, and tanks using dps accessories and tanking in dps stance so aggro was more of a group effort.

Overall the game had more engagement back in the day but didn't people complain? Healers complained how annoying it was to heal tanks in dps stance, astro complained how the card system was not engaging because it was just fishing for balance and the RNG did not feel good. Community complained sch would have have the fairy heal and end up letting people die? How cleric stance was unfun and clunky leading to unnecessary deaths cause it was just annoying to manage.

SE listened, and now people are upset SE is not listening? They gave the masses what they want a more streamlined experience.

Edit: I am not saying how the DEVS handled stuff in the past was perfect but they did try, and the community asked for the removal of stuff not the adjustment. Yet now they are upset when the stuff is gone? People even stated that we should be careful what we ask of the DEV's because often times things do not get replaced when they are removed.

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Yeah not everyone who complains is correct. Just like how not everyone who complains is incorrect.

The devs have failed to find a balance in hearing complaints between ignoring, or pandering. Both results have laziness and incompetence in common.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

The thing about the healer strike that confuses me, didn't healers have more DPS buttons to press back in the day like sch or had more things to engage with such as cleric stance and astro cards? Wasn't healing not as easy for the masses due to cleric stance, and tanks using dps accessories and tanking in dps stance so aggro was more of a group effort.

Overall the game had more engagement back in the day but didn't people complain? Healers complained how annoying it was to heal tanks in dps stance, astro complained how the card system was not engaging because it was just fishing for balance and the RNG did not feel good. Community complained sch would have have the fairy heal and end up letting people die? How cleric stance was unfun and clunky leading to unnecessary deaths cause it was just annoying to manage.

SE listened, and now people are upset SE is not listening? They gave the masses what they want a more streamlined experience.

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This is exactly what happened. This is why the devs should not listen to the forums for feedback because the players who make these complaints are the overwhelming minority, notwithstanding they also have terrible ideas and only act in the present. Yoshi even alluded to this a few times in live letters that the players are insatiable in demands and constantly switch up on the devs. Just like how in EW pre DT, several people on the forums were saying how much they wanted to take a backseat and not be the "savior" after the Hydaelyn-Zodiark arc and were looking forward to just enjoying the scenery and taking a back seat...

Low and behold, devs give them exactly that and people complain lmao.

The XIV forums are a never ending cycle of memes.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

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I'm not agreeing with how things has been handled so far.
I too think that things are way off from optimal performances.
And sadly I got no real other comments at this time regarding it.
I was simply expressing that his story about the "glue-sniffers" healers might've not been looked upon by SE as a "oh, all the good players have left healing, we must do something to bring them back" and instead more of a "oh, the general performance of healers have dropped, what can we do to make it easier for them", considering Yoshi's earlier statements regarding how they vision the healer jobs.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Same on Chaos. Yesterday night was especially barren in the green slots-

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Same on Malboro

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

The thing about the healer strike that confuses me, didn't healers have more DPS buttons to press back in the day like sch or had more things to engage with such as cleric stance and astro cards? Wasn't healing not as easy for the masses due to cleric stance, and tanks using dps accessories and tanking in dps stance so aggro was more of a group effort.

Overall the game had more engagement back in the day but didn't people complain?

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I can't remember hearing any complaints about damage actions save for Holy taking a whopping 2 seconds for its stun to actually go off. That is, until Stormblood, when the first (comparatively small) wave of pruning came through. I can remember significant hype for the added damage actions in Heavensward, however.

As for Cleric Stance, it was bad as implemented. It was designed as a lock-in instead of an actual cooldown, frequently double-cast itself due to latency when attempting to cancel it, and offered only 1 GCD's more commitment than just... not having it at all.

But "clunky due to struggling with terrible netcode amid other oddities" does not make a "we want fewer DPS actions / less downtime engagement". Just like "we'd really like the arbitrary roundtrip ping cost to uptime and ability to double-press a mudra in combat removed so that anyone and everyone can actually weave these skills as intended, instead of only players playing on fiber from within Japan" does not make a "We want the majority of NIN's oGCD button-presses removed," nor "We want at least occasional reason for X job to be taken over the generally dominant job in its role" make a "We want homogeneity." At this point, the devs' job reworks have often required need a Wikipedia game's worth of efforts just to arrive at relevance to the details of players' complaints.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

This is exactly what happened. This is why the devs should not listen to the forums for feedback because the players who make these complaints are the overwhelming minority, notwithstanding they also have terrible ideas and only act in the present. Yoshi even alluded to this a few times in live letters that the players are insatiable in demands and constantly switch up on the devs. Just like how in EW pre DT, several people on the forums were saying how much they wanted to take a backseat and not be the "savior" after the Hydaelyn-Zodiark arc and were looking forward to just enjoying the scenery and taking a back seat...

Low and behold, devs give them exactly that and people complain lmao.

The XIV forums are a never ending cycle of memes.

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It's up to the developers to gauge feedback. All feedback everywhere in the entire universe of human civilization is given by a minority. It's impossible to poll an entire large population.
But a minority giving feedback doesn't mean it's incorrect any more than it means it is correct, or agreed or disagreed upon by the rest of the population.

Being put on a backseat is one thing, but taking a backseat can be done well or badly. People obviously wanted to take the backseat in a well executed manner. People do not seem to think DT put the player character in a backseat role well, so you can say it was hypocritical, but it's like saying you'd like cake and you are served cake but it's very bad cake with grainy texture, falls apart, isn't sweet, and gives you the runs.

This thread is kind of like a FF fans use your brain challenge. This isn't hard to understand nuance and judgement.
I suppose squex has been cultivating a fanbase of braindead fanboys for decades now though... It's important to keep standards low to continue developing with low quality.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

This is exactly what happened. This is why the devs should not listen to the forums for feedback because the players who make these complaints are the overwhelming minority, notwithstanding they also have terrible ideas and only act in the present. Yoshi even alluded to this a few times in live letters that the players are insatiable in demands and constantly switch up on the devs. Just like how in EW pre DT, several people on the forums were saying how much they wanted to take a backseat and not be the "savior" after the Hydaelyn-Zodiark arc and were looking forward to just enjoying the scenery and taking a back seat...

Low and behold, devs give them exactly that and people complain lmao.

The XIV forums are a never ending cycle of memes.

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Mm.. People are far too demanding on how they think things should be.
And most probably don't even think of what consequences it could bring but only seeing the "issue" before them.

Like healers back in the days complaining about not wanting to DPS, it's not why they are playing healers.
Sure it's not a healers job to act as a DPS. And it might've worked, in a different game.
FFXIV combat system is slow and pretty much any attack that isn't a single target is marked so people easily can avoid it.
So with such a slow, easy to avoid combat system, what does that leave a healer with not much to heal and not much to attack with while waiting for someone to make a mistake so they can heal some more.

Edit:
Heck, one didn't even have to ponder over the consequences, the signs were clear as day even then.
Healers who didn't want to DPS simply stood and did nothing, while waiting for something to heal. That was their way of protesting.
And this brought toxic interactions in parties where members complained to the healers for not DPS'ing when they have those skills and the Healers refused as they wanted to play the role that they were signing up to do.
And since this only brought more and more toxicity in the community SE probably didn't have any other choice but to take away offensive skills from the Healers arsenal.
That way people couldn't complain that they didn't attack as they didn't have such capabilities anymore and Healers could play the role they wanted to play, a Healer.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

Mm.. People are far too demanding on how they think things should be.
And most probably don't even think of what consequences it could bring but only seeing the "issue" before them.

Like healers back in the days complaining about not wanting to DPS, it's not why they are playing healers.
Sure it's not a healers job to act as a DPS. And it might've worked, in a different game.
FFXIV combat system is slow and pretty much any attack that isn't a single target is marked so people easily can avoid it.
So with such a slow, easy to avoid combat system, what does that leave a healer with not much to heal and not much to attack with while waiting for someone to make a mistake so they can heal some more.

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See I understand the point being made and I see the good behind it.

But I am also very clearly able to see the bad around it, which these forums tend to overwhelming ignore the very overt consequences of their suggestions. This is the problem with XIV forums. No one seems to suggest balanced takes. It's all several deep-end changes that outside of their own playstyle bubble, they refuse to understand how it effects the greater player base. Majority of the suggestions I've seen in this thread for example would decimate the Healer population in PF. This goes to show the average forum goer in their hyper optimized statics does not understand the situation in PF enough to know that asking anything more from Healers is a huge no go.

Things should change sure but in order to get the change that some people want, you'd have to change all roles, and overall the battle system of the game to disperse responsibilities throughout. An expansion worthy task. Come back in 2 years basically

I really, really hate the argument of "You healers asked for this, you got what you want, and now you're complaining!?", I have to keep reminding people that we are NOT a hivemind, most of us DIDN'T ask for this, most of us were AGAINST this, actually.

I've never seen a single healer main back then who asked for our entire kit to be gutted into the worst healer design in the history of games. I have, however, seen tank and DPS mains who complain about healers not healing them and getting antsy about sitting at 90% HP. Of course, SE has to heed their precious DPS players and destroy the healers for them, because apparently if you have a green icon, you're not allowed to have fun.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

Like healers back in the days complaining about not wanting to DPS, it's not why they are playing healers.

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Seriously? They didn’t dps at all? I would have voted to kick them on the spot. Thats beyond lazy for the amount of healing downtime this game has.

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Originally Posted by Naychan

Seriously? They didn’t dps at all? I would have voted to kick them on the spot. Thats beyond lazy for the amount of healing downtime this game has.

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Yeah, there were those who simply didn't do anything if there wasn't anything to heal.
Some were probably kicked due to it ofc.
But there were ofc those who argued against it, saying that kicking them would be an act of Prohibited Activities, like:

• Unjustified usage of Vote Dismiss --Kicking someone despite they're playing their role (Healer (not a dps))
• Expressions that compel a playing style --"I'm playing a healer not a Green DPS. You don't pay my sub!"
• Expressions that attempt to unilaterally exclude someone from the game or content/community, etc. --Keeping someone from progressing/partaking in the game.

There are probably more that could be used, but you get the drift.
FFXIV players are quick to bring stuff like this up whenever anyone has anything against someone pretty much.

And that was what Yoshi mentioned when speaking of not adding more offensive skills in that pre-EW interview. As it would put pressure on the healers from the other group members to use them, where from history that didn't really work out too well.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I can't remember hearing any complaints about damage actions save for Holy taking a whopping 2 seconds for its stun to actually go off. That is, until Stormblood, when the first (comparatively small) wave of pruning came through. I can remember significant hype for the added damage actions in Heavensward, however.

As for Cleric Stance, it was bad as implemented. It was designed as a lock-in instead of an actual cooldown, frequently double-cast itself due to latency when attempting to cancel it, and offered only 1 GCD's more commitment than just... not having it at all.

But "clunky due to struggling with terrible netcode amid other oddities" does not make a "we want fewer DPS actions / less downtime engagement". Just like "we'd really like the arbitrary roundtrip ping cost to uptime and ability to double-press a mudra in combat removed so that anyone and everyone can actually weave these skills as intended, instead of only players playing on fiber from within Japan" does not make a "We want the majority of NIN's oGCD button-presses removed," nor "We want at least occasional reason for X job to be taken over the generally dominant job in its role" make a "We want homogeneity." At this point, the devs' job reworks have often required need a Wikipedia game's worth of efforts just to arrive at relevance to the details of players' complaints.

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Cleric stance was fun for what it was. Could it have been implemented better sure, but we both know that is not what was asked or how people viewed cleric stance. People wanted it gone. It was far from perfect but it was something that was fun to as a causal healer to maximize. Added a sense of growth on my part even if it was kind of an illusion, I liked to see how I could each clear I would have higher overall DPS. It was fun. Reality is different many did not like it and complained and found it unnecessary. It led to many wipes I am 100% guilty of it myself. I killed many groups due to tunnel vision.

DPS would complain about tanks in dps stance but would not use their aggro dumps, healers would complain how tanks were annoying to heal because the HP was smaller since they used dps accessories, healers complained about having to do damage and just stood around. Every role has complained, and let us be real the "technical" issues barely impact cast majority of players. Hell most players are unable to even keep their GCD rolling, let alone double weave.

Track record of SE complain about something it gets gutted. I miss old smn not once did I complain about it, but alas the majority did and bam my main since HW was wrecked for me personally.

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Originally Posted by Naychan

Seriously? They didn’t dps at all? I would have voted to kick them on the spot. Thats beyond lazy for the amount of healing downtime this game has.

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Sadly, this was a thing.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I really, really hate the argument of "You healers asked for this, you got what you want, and now you're complaining!?", I have to keep reminding people that we are NOT a hivemind, most of us DIDN'T ask for this, most of us were AGAINST this, actually.

I've never seen a single healer main back then who asked for our entire kit to be gutted into the worst healer design in the history of games. I have, however, seen tank and DPS mains who complain about healers not healing them and getting antsy about sitting at 90% HP. Of course, SE has to heed their precious DPS players and destroy the healers for them, because apparently if you have a green icon, you're not allowed to have fun.

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Come on you know this is not true, many healers back in the day complained about how they spent more time doing damage verse healing and how they wanted more healing actions. The rolled healer to heal not dps etc... Also it was healer players that complained tanks were annoying to heal due to smaller HP cause of DPS accessory usage. Just like dps did complain about aggro because many did refuse to use their aggro dump even if it was ogcd. Sure cases like bard and stuff were annoying and possible to rip aggro off at the start of their opener.

Complaints come form both sides but it does make more sense to cater to the larger demographic. I say this as a SMN main since HW. I miss my old smn but majority did not like it so it makes sense to turn it into something more people will play. They are just doing the same with healers and unfort I bet their data will show the strike has not had a major impact to healer numbers.

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Originally Posted by Naychan

Seriously? They didn’t dps at all? I would have voted to kick them on the spot. Thats beyond lazy for the amount of healing downtime this game has.

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And that's actually reportable for abusing the report system. So you'd houdini yourself for toxic behavior. Congrats.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

And that's actually reportable for abusing the report system. So you'd houdini yourself for toxic behavior. Congrats.

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Wrong. The Dev team has gone on record saying that lethargic play is kickable.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

And that's actually reportable for abusing the report system. So you'd houdini yourself for toxic behavior. Congrats.

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See this at the core is what the debate back then looked like. Healers that did not want to do damage felt they were within their right if the content was cleared cause they performed their classes role. Always felt DPS was optional, while they other side felt it DPS was a core part of every role.

Even here yall cannot agree.

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Originally Posted by Isala

Wrong. The Dev team has gone on record saying that lethargic play is kickable.

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Iirc that was discussed back and forward amongst the community during that time and that SE affirmed it later on, or perhaps during the whole spectacle.
But at the beginning at least it wasn't and people could get reported for kicking them.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

Iirc that was discussed back and forward amongst the community during that time and that SE affirmed it later on, or perhaps during the whole spectacle.
But at the beginning at least it wasn't and people could get reported for kicking them.

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Think the common tactic back then was to silent kicks then quote difference in playstyle or something. Such a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Think the common tactic back then was to silent kicks then quote difference in playstyle or something. Such a long time ago.

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Now that you mention it, it does sound familiar that people spread such a "tactic" in a way for people to more "safely" kick Healers who refused to support the group outside of just healing.
Trick was to not say anything. If anything was said against the Healer, that would be used against you and the other group members who supported that vote.
Some didn't even dare to do a casual greeting at the begining simply because your name(s) would be in the chatlog then, so easy for the healer to remember and point out who was there.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

And that was what Yoshi mentioned when speaking of not adding more offensive skills in that pre-EW interview. As it would put pressure on the healers from the other group members to use them, where from history that didn't really work out too well.

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Now it's even more egregious when healers don't DPS. You have 1 button to press, you better never stand still it's so easy and accessible now.

Clearly they didn't think their strategy through.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I really, really hate the argument of "You healers asked for this, you got what you want, and now you're complaining!?", I have to keep reminding people that we are NOT a hivemind, most of us DIDN'T ask for this, most of us were AGAINST this, actually.

I've never seen a single healer main back then who asked for our entire kit to be gutted into the worst healer design in the history of games. I have, however, seen tank and DPS mains who complain about healers not healing them and getting antsy about sitting at 90% HP. Of course, SE has to heed their precious DPS players and destroy the healers for them, because apparently if you have a green icon, you're not allowed to have fun.

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I doubt that anyone really thinks that it was all healers who acted this way. But it's simply easier to use a general term when speaking of it, so the word "Healer" as a whole is simply used for the simplicity. Imo at least.
So yes, it was probably a minority of all healers who were like that.
But I can say the same for this Strike.
Not once since the strike began have I seen any mention of it ingame. And I've never seen any # of it in anyone's character profile either.

But hey, even if it might've been a minority who protested against using DPS skills back then and they got their way, maybe this strike, being a minority as well could bring yet another change.
I do however think that the defining difference between then and now is that back then it caused a much larger impact ingame where it was turning players against one another, people got kicked and so forth.
This strike, passive as it is doesn't have the same traction nor negative effects.
Hopefully something will come out of it non the less.

Like when I don’t heal or have my friends heal for me I get the most impressive glue sniffers as healers you can find (I’m pro healer strike so I find this not even bad it’s just amazing how bad these players are). Doesn’t matter what fight if it’s dungeon or even ex trials. The number of absolut bottom of the barrel healer has gone up by a mile.

And then I thought the content was fun again because no way In hell people struggle this bad and I started lvl and playing healer in the ex fights and it’s still as boring as before. I can watch doctor house and the boys with my friends while doing this content and brain afk. Also good lord my co healers in 90 % of these ex fight groups are these glue sniffer that deal under 6 k dmg and heal less then I do.
Also every party looks almost all the time for healers and sometimes p range cause they are not well liked also.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Come on you know this is not true, many healers back in the day complained about how they spent more time doing damage verse healing and how they wanted more healing actions. The rolled healer to heal not dps etc... Also it was healer players that complained tanks were annoying to heal due to smaller HP cause of DPS accessory usage.

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How nice of you to dismiss my experiences with your own.

No, I did not see any healers complaining about that. When I played back then, healers were pressured to turn OFF Cleric Stance, not turn it on. Parties were content with letting the healer do nothing but heal. Even when I was farming extremes, I was told to not turn on Cleric Stance at all.

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Complaints come form both sides but it does make more sense to cater to the larger demographic. I say this as a SMN main since HW. I miss my old smn but majority did not like it so it makes sense to turn it into something more people will play. They are just doing the same with healers and unfort I bet their data will show the strike has not had a major impact to healer numbers.

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The thing here is, you don't know that they're catering to a larger demographic, you're assuming that they are, but they've been known to make bad decisions before.

Also, the vast majority of players are silent for a reason, they likely do not care one way or another, so they'd play the jobs they enjoy no matter what. Why should these players be included in the discussion?

In the end, everything is going to be minority vs minority, there is no majority position here.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

I doubt that anyone really thinks that it was all healers who acted this way. But it's simply easier to use a general term when speaking of it, so the word "Healer" as a whole is simply used for the simplicity. Imo at least.
So yes, it was probably a minority of all healers who were like that.
But I can say the same for this Strike.
Not once since the strike began have I seen any mention of it ingame. And I've never seen any # of it in anyone's character profile either.

But hey, even if it might've been a minority who protested against using DPS skills back then and they got their way, maybe this strike, being a minority as well could bring yet another change.
I do however think that the defining difference between then and now is that back then it caused a much larger impact ingame where it was turning players against one another, people got kicked and so forth.
This strike, passive as it is doesn't have the same traction nor negative effects.
Hopefully something will come out of it non the less.

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the answers you seek are on the first page, and people are free to use the hashtag or not, nor is griefing by not healing condoned and those people doing so should be rightfully reported:

This strike is a protest. As such, it is not intended to disrupt the game or the players who have subscribed to FFXIV.
The message of the strike is a collective voice of those who are not happy with the state of healing and healers in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Complaints come form both sides but it does make more sense to cater to the larger demographic. I say this as a SMN main since HW. I miss my old smn but majority did not like it so it makes sense to turn it into something more people will play. They are just doing the same with healers and unfort I bet their data will show the strike has not had a major impact to healer numbers.

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larger demographic huh. just curious, in light of the upcoming Viper changes, which no one else seems to have complained about it being "busy" this doesnt seem to be a larger demographic pain point. in fact, no one knows where this idea comes from.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

the answers you seek are on the first page, and people are free to use the hashtag or not, nor is griefing by not healing condoned and those people doing so should be rightfully reported:

This strike is a protest. As such, it is not intended to disrupt the game or the players who have subscribed to FFXIV.
The message of the strike is a collective voice of those who are not happy with the state of healing and healers in FFXIV.

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Thank you, but I am well aware.
Henche why I added the part "passive as it is". Since I know it's not meant to be disruptive.
Which is the defining difference between then and now which might've been what tipped the scale back then for the change to even happen.
Hopefully I'm wrong on that part tho.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

I doubt that anyone really thinks that it was all healers who acted this way. But it's simply easier to use a general term when speaking of it, so the word "Healer" as a whole is simply used for the simplicity. Imo at least.
So yes, it was probably a minority of all healers who were like that.
But I can say the same for this Strike.
Not once since the strike began have I seen any mention of it ingame. And I've never seen any # of it in anyone's character profile either.

But hey, even if it might've been a minority who protested against using DPS skills back then and they got their way, maybe this strike, being a minority as well could bring yet another change.
I do however think that the defining difference between then and now is that back then it caused a much larger impact ingame where it was turning players against one another, people got kicked and so forth.
This strike, passive as it is doesn't have the same traction nor negative effects.
Hopefully something will come out of it non the less.

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So the current design of parties screaming at each other because the tank thinks it’s their god given right to solo the content isn’t creating friction in the party

The one time I decided to queue as a healer to help a friend the tanks explicitly tried to kill me on sphene because I was the only one besides them who survived clusterfuck phase (and I mean I did it right, they both survived with 4 vuln stacks)

We don’t need to attempt to actively disrupt other people (and we don’t want to because we value our accounts) the current game design already does it for us

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So the current design of parties screaming at each other because the tank thinks it’s their god given right to solo the content isn’t creating friction in the party

The one time I decided to queue as a healer to help a friend the tanks explicitly tried to kill me on sphene because I was the only one besides them who survived clusterfuck phase (and I mean I did it right, they both survived with 4 vuln stacks)

We don’t need to attempt to actively disrupt other people (and we don’t want to because we value our accounts) the current game design already does it for us

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Apparently 'tanks murdering everyone else and wasting everyone's time by taking 10 minutes to solo' is good friction and 'healers pressing the wrong button and someone dying' is bad friction.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

How nice of you to dismiss my experiences with your own.

No, I did not see any healers complaining about that. When I played back then, healers were pressured to turn OFF Cleric Stance, not turn it on. Parties were content with letting the healer do nothing but heal. Even when I was farming extremes, I was told to not turn on Cleric Stance at all.



The thing here is, you don't know that they're catering to a larger demographic, you're assuming that they are, but they've been known to make bad decisions before.

Also, the vast majority of players are silent for a reason, they likely do not care one way or another, so they'd play the jobs they enjoy no matter what. Why should these players be included in the discussion?

In the end, everything is going to be minority vs minority, there is no majority position here.

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I am sure SE has the data that supports the changes they make. I doubt they are making changes based off their on whims, I doubt we would have a game that is growing in population and popularity if they were doing that.

Let be fair the healers were pressured to keep it off were because people could afraid they were going to wipe the group, just like how people pushed some tanks to not use dps stance and stay in tank stance for aggro reasons.

In the end SE has the data and they will use that data to support their choices, their data must have supported the complaints or I doubt they would have changed it.

If anything the tanks inherent immortality is just increasing the stress on the healer for no benefit because the healer is the DPS only defence against the tank wasting everyone’s time but the healer has no engagement to go with this

And somehow the braindead DPS blame the healer for not surviving to keep them alive when they all end up stuck watching the tank when the question should be “why is the tank allowed to do this”

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So the current design of parties screaming at each other because the tank thinks it’s their god given right to solo the content isn’t creating friction in the party

The one time I decided to queue as a healer to help a friend the tanks explicitly tried to kill me on sphene because I was the only one besides them who survived clusterfuck phase (and I mean I did it right, they both survived with 4 vuln stacks)

We don’t need to attempt to actively disrupt other people (and we don’t want to because we value our accounts) the current game design already does it for us

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I don't think a tank should be able to survive a bossfight without the support of a healer so I do think that their self sustain should have a look over by the devs.
I've seen tanks try to solo a boss if the rest of the group dies early, sure.
But if the boss is at high HP more often than not do the tank suicide and we restart the encounter. No screaming and most of the times not even a word uttered.
I can't however recall to ever have experienced a tank trying to kill the other party members. That sounds like an abnormally to me.

So I can't tell from personal experience that I've ever felt it causing a friction in a party.
To me, what people talk about tanks trying to solo Bosses and trying to kill team mates doesn't feel very common.
I can't say that it is or isn't ofc. But I've never noticed anything ingame that would point towards it being so.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If anything the tanks inherent immortality is just increasing the stress on the healer for no benefit because the healer is the DPS only defence against the tank wasting everyone’s time but the healer has no engagement to go with this

And somehow the braindead DPS blame the healer for not surviving to keep them alive when they all end up stuck watching the tank when the question should be “why is the tank allowed to do this”

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For what it is worth I think many do feel tanks doing their 90 to 0 boss kills is extremely BM.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

I am sure SE has the data that supports the changes they make. I doubt they are making changes based off their on whims, I doubt we would have a game that is growing in population and popularity if they were doing that.

Let be fair the healers were pressured to keep it off were because people could afraid they were going to wipe the group, just like how people pushed some tanks to not use dps stance and stay in tank stance for aggro reasons.

In the end SE has the data and they will use that data to support their choices, their data must have supported the complaints or I doubt they would have changed it.

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You seem to be arguing from the position that SE has the data and so they cannot make the wrong decision.

We have seen that they have made a lot of decisions that were received very badly before, so just because they have the data still doesn't automatically mean they make the correct (or even the best) decisions.

The only difference here is that you have faith in SE, we don't.

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

I don't think a tank should be able to survive a bossfight without the support of a healer so I do think that their self sustain should have a look over by the devs.
I've seen tanks try to solo a boss if the rest of the group dies early, sure.
But if the boss is at high HP more often than not do the tank suicide and we restart the encounter. No screaming and most of the times not even a word uttered.
I can't however recall to ever have experienced a tank trying to kill the other party members. That sounds like an abnormally to me.

So I can't tell from personal experience that I've ever felt it causing a friction in a party.
To me, what people talk about tanks trying to solo Bosses and trying to kill team mates doesn't feel very common.
I can't say that it isn't or not ofc. But I've never noticed anything ingame that would point towards it being one.

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Tanks attempting to actively murder the healer to solo is definitely an anomaly (though one that wouldn’t exist if the tanks couldn’t solo the boss) but from all the listening posts I have access to the tank silently deciding to solo the boss has become a massive annoyance in DT that people aren’t happy with and it’s because the tank players aren’t actually better than anyone else, they just have an inbuilt 80% damage down that means they just tank mechanics that others die to then say it’s a skill issue