Tank healing is to high

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Originally Posted by Alzinor

i feel like in my opinion sage is the only healer who can keep a drk > 50% hp without burning his whole healing kit.

first make sure you always cast the barrier and not the healing on your drk.
Second, cast the healing potency up on cooldown.

that was the retard rotation i did for levelling and i never suffered to keep the drk alive.

meanwhile, as ast, i'm sweating a lot.

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Will try ty xd strangely for me its easier as whm or ast ah

I'm feeling like a lot of these threads are being pushed by certain youtube personalities at the moment. Tank healing being high in a PvE game isn't such a big problem that it detracts from enjoying the game and the same could be said for healers having an easier time, which for some reason Xeno has a dislike for (went and checked out what youtube personalities videos are currently going on about right now).

Guys, form your own opinions before jumping onto a band wagon. I think that he has good points, but he also likes to emphasize those points in a thick layer of satyr that is typical for the internet, and doesn't lend itself to constructive criticism of the subject matter.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

yeah tbh always prioritze any other barrier first not sure if it also prioritze though if its a cata from a crit alco sch/ differential diag from sge if some please confirm ty in advance

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What's probably happening when people see a shield take a hit even though both a shield and TBN are up is that the hit getting shielded from the non TBN barrier snapshotted the other shield and not TBN, meaning the DRK did not deploy it in time for the snapshot. Visually however it looks like TBN isn't getting it's priority when in actuality what happened is that the TBN was used too late.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

Honestly seeing how there are so many horrible healers out there now I’m glad tanks can sustain themselves. Now I’m not talking about the amazing healers we have so don’t come for me lol.

Playing through this expansion Omg I can’t tell you how many unnecessary deaths I’ve had and seen due to healers either just refusing to heal or just don’t know how to heal. I’m glad tanks can sustain themselves and others now. I’ve had some good tanks where the healer died and we killed the dungeon boss still. Yeah it might make the healer feel like crap but hey if you not gonna do your job then at least tanks can cover it to some extent.

I’m all for this tank sustainability. I hope SE doesn’t change it. Just my opinion.

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ITS A FREAKING MULTIPLAYER GAME. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DEPEND ON YOUR F***CKING TEAM/PARTY

cope harder lol

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Originally Posted by Pibz

ITS A FREAKING MULTIPLAYER GAME. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DEPEND ON YOUR F***CKING TEAM/PARTY

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Tanks despite being the best jobs in the game overall, are also stressful to play in dungeons. (By many, you get the hang of it and then you get hooked like me)
There’s really only 1 tank that you might consider self-heals too much and it’s really only 1 ability. And even then, if still nobody wants to tank, then it’s NOT too much.

The ff14 community want to be people-pleasing healbots more than they want to play tank.
That should tell you something about tanking.
Until more people are willing to put down the daggers and the staves and pick up a shield, then no tanks don’t self-heal too much

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Originally Posted by DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise

The ff14 community want to be people-pleasing healbots more than they want to play tank.

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The healer forums will burn you to the ground if you tell them that - they have been advocating for letting enemies do more damage so they can do something outside of using their 1 SINGLE BUTTON for 90% of the fight and majority of their toolkit being rendered moot.

Most of them want to be Support - do damage AND heal, to be useful and contribute to the party. Not many want to be gimped DPS, or they wouldn't have played healer. They want to heal and be rewarded for healing, but they don't want to be healbots that heals for the sake of healing.

Tank survivability is a good thing - tanks get to have fun with tanking.
Healers not having anything to do but play 1 button DPS simulator - that's a bad thing. Majority of your healing toolkit is rendered moot. You're back to playing your DPS rotation from ARR. So much for having 4 expansions worth of healing skills.

At this point, healers pretty much accepted the fact that the devs will never increase outgoing damage without adjusting tank's self-sustain & survivability higher to compensate, but the devs still made the healing toolkit as if healers were the only ones who affected HP in a vacuum. That's where all the complaints are coming from. That's why we have a 100+ page thread in General Discussion about healers wanting more engagement outside of healing. -- And the easiest solution is to add more DPS skills, as DPS skills will always have a use.

And in the end, no matter how much devs adjust outgoing damage -- the problem is just how gear and combat is designed. Encounter Design is not made to have a lot of unavoidable damage to heal, they test each individual player's skill by making them resolve the mechanic or take a vulnerability debuff / die. Downtime will always be present even when it gets adjusted - and will only grow when players become more familiar with the duty and get better gear. That will never change.

Tanking isn’t really fun though, even though you may say you can have your fun and tank.
I have to fall back to queue times to reliably identify what’s fun to play.

I don’t want to get into specifics, but tanking ranges from boring to stressful.
You take too much damage and you’re healer get mad. You take too little your healer get sad.
I can appreciate that you want to feel like a clutch necessity, but that’s exactly what I mean by people-pleasing. That IS people pleasing.
My recommendation to healers that want to feel needed, is play whatever the queue gods says is needed. (Notahealer)

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Originally Posted by DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise

Tanking isn’t really fun though, even though you may say you can have your fun and tank.
I have to fall back to queue times to reliably identify what’s fun to play.

I don’t want to get into specifics, but tanking ranges from boring to stressful.
You take too much damage and you’re healer get mad. You take too little your healer get sad.
I can appreciate that you want to feel like a clutch necessity, but that’s exactly what I mean by people-pleasing. That IS people pleasing.
My recommendation to healers that want to feel needed, is play whatever the queue gods says is needed. (Notahealer)

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If tanks take too little damage, it means they're doing their job right. If they're taking too little, it means healers have to fix their mistake. It's not a tank problem. The problem is a design issue with healers because they have nothing else to do in that vacuum when people play better. Not a tank problem. A healer problem. It's a lack of things to do the better the players get. You shouldn't be punished when you play better, you should feel rewarded. Tanks get to focus on DPS rotations the better they mitigate and make less mistakes. DPS who play better and avoid mechanics can focus on their DPS rotations more. Healers don't feel rewarded because there's nothing that builds into playing better. They just do less. That's the issue healers are having with the lack of engagement. Avoiding mechanics is something all jobs do. There's nothing there for healers to do to "play better" other than press that single nuke button over and over and over and over until the duty finishes after that.

The better you get, the more you press that one single button. There's no variance, nothing fun about it. No engagement beyond healing that isn't unique to healers.

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Originally Posted by AnotherPerson

If tanks take too little damage, it means they're doing their job right. If they're taking too little, it means healers have to fix their mistake. It's not a tank problem. The problem is a design issue with healers because they have nothing else to do in that vacuum when people play better. Not a tank problem. A healer problem. It's a lack of things to do the better the players get. You shouldn't be punished when you play better, you should feel rewarded. Tanks get to focus on DPS rotations the better they mitigate and make less mistakes. DPS who play better and avoid mechanics can focus on their DPS rotations more. Healers don't feel rewarded because there's nothing that builds into playing better. They just do less. That's the issue healers are having with the lack of engagement. Avoiding mechanics is something all jobs do. There's nothing there for healers to do to "play better" other than press that single nuke button over and over and over and over until the duty finishes after that.

The better you get, the more you press that one single button. There's no variance, nothing fun about it. No engagement beyond healing that isn't unique to healers.

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Yeam man I get taht, and trust me I understand, despite being a tank main now I was healer main before EW. For me though, it was pretty rare that things got too boring. I was AST healer main before.
My playstyle is not with statics of any kind and very rarely have I ever been bored to tears playing healer. Usually somebody make mistakes and require special attention.

The plight of the healer is boredom when everyone plays perfectly. Like you said thats a healer problem not a tank problem. I don't really want to get into it, but if you tempt healers with dps anymore than they already are.. well lets just say they are already dereliction of duty in some cases..

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Originally Posted by DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise

Yeam man I get taht, and trust me I understand, despite being a tank main now I was healer main before EW. For me though, it was pretty rare that things got too boring. I was AST healer main before.
My playstyle is not with statics of any kind and very rarely have I ever been bored to tears playing healer. Usually somebody make mistakes and require special attention.

The plight of the healer is boredom when everyone plays perfectly. Like you said thats a healer problem not a tank problem. I don't really want to get into it, but if you tempt healers with dps anymore than they already are.. well lets just say they are already dereliction of duty in some cases..

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Tempt healer DPS? Dereliction of duty? And how is that a problem? You already have tanks who don't mitigate when they focus too much on their DPS rotation or neglect their mitigation entirely until a boss fight. You already have DPS who don't dodge mechanics when they focus oo much on their DPS rotation. You already have healers who sometimes forget to look at everyone's HP bars because they fall asleep pressing the single same button over and over again. You already have healers who make a mistake, fail the mechanic, and die. Other roles work to cover for that mistake by using their mitigation, healing, or raising utility in response. Players make mistakes, and they will learn from them. A healer is prone to error just like the rest of the players until they are familiar with the fight encounter and familiar with their job's skills to play it by muscle memory. This is nothing new.

Just because there are worse players in a role, it doesn't mean the whole role should be dragged down because of them. If these players are such a big problem, then SE should get rid of all the tank DPS skills and remove all interactive DPS toolkits just so the tanks and DPS can "focus on the fight" instead of not mitigating properly and dying. Taking damage from avoidable mechanics is never part of their job description. Wiping the party by falling the mechanic and causing everyone in the group to die was never part of their job description.

The reason those DPS skills aren't removed is because tanks and DPS will be boring otherwise. Who wants to sit and wait every 10+ seconds until the boss attacks, knowing that they're not going to do need to react or move until 7+ seconds later while mindlessly spamming the same button as they wait? No, that's why DPS and tanks have their own DPS resource skills to build up in the meantime. That's the added layer of complexity which results in fun when the player gets it right.

Yeah I don’t really care if healers get more dps buttons and forget to heal, not usually my problem anymore. (Thankfully)
Now it’s usually the rest of the group eating dirt cause due to a double warm glow that the sage wasn’t prepared for.

I guess my point is, temp healer dps rotation with a burst window or a combo and it’d be tempting to not stop their rotation and heal the raid damage.
Unfortunately even though dereliction of duty is a user error, square will usually design around potato heads.

AST cards for example. Sign and card optimization is the least important thing an AST could focus on. For non-potato heads there’s no problem. Just don’t concern yourself with signs/cardfaces unless there’s nothing else to process. And then when things are boring you can focus on yugio getting your royal flush.
But no! AST too busy!
The fact that square still thinks AST is too busy in EW should dash any hopes that healers won’t be boring when group plays well.
But again I don’t care if healers get more dps buttons as long as tanks don’t get nerfed.

Welp. HERE WE ARE. PLD got heals attached to their Confiteor Combo. As if we didn't need MORE healing for PLD in particular...this just creates a higher stigma for the "Tanks are healing too much" argument. It goes from 4 healing Attacks to 8, but doesn't put them on level with WAR's healing yet. DRK getting healing attached to their LD helps alleviate healers, which is a much needed fix. This basically makes it so that you don't die in packs as much as you used to in dungeons, and makes you basically top off during raids for PLD.

Man, I love it. People cry about tanks having their own sustain, and SE proceeds to bump PLD's self-healing up to WAR levels. ...Well, on single target. I'd say it's safe to assume WAR still wins hands down on AoE because of the way Bloodwhetting works. The LD change is equally hilarious, although it's probably going to create as many problems as it addressed.

Why be salty over tanks not needing much healing? The DPS still do.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Why be salty over tanks not needing much healing? The DPS still do.

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one regen ogcd or gcd, every time there is a scripted boss aoe isnt really much healing needed

"Tank healing is too high" feels like an argument that means nothing anymore. This is why I'm in favour of making healers more like PvP kits, making them more utility oriented and their healing being a limited resource. The devs said they wanted PvP to feel like healers aren't needed, but currently PvE barely feels like healers are needed.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Man, I love it. People cry about tanks having their own sustain, and SE proceeds to bump PLD's self-healing up to WAR levels. ...Well, on single target. I'd say it's safe to assume WAR still wins hands down on AoE because of the way Bloodwhetting works. The LD change is equally hilarious, although it's probably going to create as many problems as it addressed.

Why be salty over tanks not needing much healing? The DPS still do.

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I don't think people are salty, I think people think it is stupid. Cause it is pretty stupid and goes against Yoshi P role ideology 10 fold, which was healers are meant to heal not dps. Not to mention with all the added healing to PLD it makes there less of a purpose to even have clemancy (which no one used). I get tanks having a bit of sustain, but being capable of full sustain through out a dungeon or even some end game content it very bad design.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

I don't think people are salty, I think people think it is stupid. Cause it is pretty stupid and goes against Yoshi P role ideology 10 fold, which was healers are meant to heal not dps. Not to mention with all the added healing to PLD it makes there less of a purpose to even have clemancy (which no one used). I get tanks having a bit of sustain, but being capable of full sustain through out a dungeon or even some end game content it very bad design.

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Clemency is and has always been an emergency tool, and it's far better for it now that it doesn't break combos. Not everything has to be in standard rotation.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Clemency is and has always been an emergency tool, and it's far better for it now that it doesn't break combos. Not everything has to be in standard rotation.

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The problem has never been Clemency or that tanks have healing tools. The problem is that encounter design doesn't take into account that tanks have healing tools (and so do some dps outside of SW) and so does an entire role called "Healer".

Content design does not match healer toolkits. So either it should or so should the healer's kit. That has always been the problem and until SE wakes up an address it, it WILL ALWAYS BE the problem.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

The problem has never been Clemency or that tanks have healing tools. The problem is that encounter design doesn't take into account that tanks have healing tools (and so do some dps outside of SW) and so does an entire role called "Healer".

Content design does not match healer toolkits. So either it should or so should the healer's kit. That has always been the problem and until SE wakes up an address it, it WILL ALWAYS BE the problem.

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Clemency is the least anti-healer-synergy tank heal though, as 99% of the time you should not be using it as long as the healer isn't KO'd. It is a very powerful tool in clutch situations, but it does not step on healer toes in your average runs.

And yeah, I agree the healer design vs. encounter design is the most glaring flaw in the game.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

The problem has never been Clemency or that tanks have healing tools. The problem is that encounter design doesn't take into account that tanks have healing tools (and so do some dps outside of SW) and so does an entire role called "Healer".

Content design does not match healer toolkits. So either it should or so should the healer's kit. That has always been the problem and until SE wakes up an address it, it WILL ALWAYS BE the problem.

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Ok, WHY do tanks have healing tools at all then? They don't need them to do their job - which supposedly is to hold agro while the healer heals them. Seems to point to a basic design problem with tanks....


The problem is that most people here think healers are in the game to make sure the tank/dps can continue playing the game as they like. Its the healers job to babysit, not be an equal member of the game.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Ok, WHY do tanks have healing tools at all then? They don't need them to do their job - which supposedly is to hold agro while the healer heals them. Seems to point to a basic design problem with tanks.....

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That is not a tank's role in FFXIV. The tank's role in this game is that of blue DPS. You are expected to output optimal damage output at all times. You are also expected to be able to survive by and large without heals for extended periods of time while the healers deal damage and/or babysit injured DPS. This has been the case since ARR.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

The problem is that most people here think healers are in the game to make sure the tank/dps can continue playing the game as they like. Its the healers job to babysit, not be an equal member of the game.

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That's their job in practically every MMO ever made. Here healers are at least expected to output as much DPS as possible while still seeing to their babysitting duties. There is no "healing" role here. They are green DPS. That's just the way it is. Just like tanks are blue DPS that have slightly more responsibility in that they prevent the party from getting murdered, healers are green DPS with slightly more responsibility in preventing the party from getting murdered.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

That is not a tank's role in FFXIV. The tank's role in this game is that of blue DPS. You are expected to output optimal damage output at all times. You are also expected to be able to survive by and large without heals for extended periods of time while the healers deal damage and/or babysit injured DPS. This has been the case since ARR.



That's their job in practically every MMO ever made. Here healers are at least expected to output as much DPS as possible while still seeing to their babysitting duties. There is no "healing" role here. They are green DPS. That's just the way it is. Just like tanks are blue DPS that have slightly more responsibility in that they prevent the party from getting murdered, healers are green DPS with slightly more responsibility in preventing the party from getting murdered.

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If healers are "green dps", why is there rotation literally 1 button. Every healing job, its 1 friggen button (with a dot every 30 seconds).

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

If healers are "green dps", why is there rotation literally 1 button. Every healing job, its 1 friggen button (with a dot every 30 seconds).

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Every healer main within a 50 mile radius on their way to repeat what they've been saying on every thread:
https://c.tenor.com/Dex8iJnROeYAAAAM/nigga-runing.gif
Jokes aside, it's because the devs think healers should only heal even though there's often nothing to heal.

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Originally Posted by deadman1204

Ok, WHY do tanks have healing tools at all then? They don't need them to do their job - which supposedly is to hold agro while the healer heals them. Seems to point to a basic design problem with tanks....


The problem is that most people here think healers are in the game to make sure the tank/dps can continue playing the game as they like. Its the healers job to babysit, not be an equal member of the game.

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Its not a problem with tank design. Its a problem with content design. Content should make use of the tools we have.

As healers that means our 8-10 healing tools.

As tanks? Their 5 or so mitigation tools plus w/e healing they have.

The point of my post is that content can hit harder but it doesn't because the devs thinks that we can't handle it when our kits CERTAINLY SAY we should.

And I've already gone on record saying that either content needs to stop hitting like a wet noodle or healer kits need to lose healing skills to make room for dps or support buttons. The post you quoted even says so.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

That is not a tank's role in FFXIV. The tank's role in this game is that of blue DPS. You are expected to output optimal damage output at all times. You are also expected to be able to survive by and large without heals for extended periods of time while the healers deal damage and/or babysit injured DPS. This has been the case since ARR.

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This is made up.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

That's their job in practically every MMO ever made. Here healers are at least expected to output as much DPS as possible while still seeing to their babysitting duties. There is no "healing" role here. They are green DPS. That's just the way it is. Just like tanks are blue DPS that have slightly more responsibility in that they prevent the party from getting murdered, healers are green DPS with slightly more responsibility in preventing the party from getting murdered.

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This is also made up.

Tanks primary function is holding threat (which is gone now), tank damage, and positioning the boss. There damage should almost always be negligible in a well designed trinity style game like this.

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

Its not a problem with tank design. Its a problem with content design. Content should make use of the tools we have.

As healers that means our 8-10 healing tools.

As tanks? Their 5 or so mitigation tools plus w/e healing they have.

The point of my post is that content can hit harder but it doesn't because the devs thinks that we can't handle it when our kits CERTAINLY SAY we should.

And I've already gone on record saying that either content needs to stop hitting like a wet noodle or healer kits need to lose healing skills to make room for dps or support buttons. The post you quoted even says so.

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It is actually a problem with both content design and tank design. As the expansions have gone on there has been more of a focus on DPS > X vs survive mechanics and kill boss at the same time. When the content pushed for this mentality this is where you see people like the other guy refer to tanks as blue dps and healers as green dps, because really the content has just become a dps race.


However, when you design tanks to both mitigate damage with high uptime, and self heal with high uptime it causes another issue where healers who's kit focus mostly on healing damage, becomes less valuable. Due to the shift in tank design, they no longer really have to worry about any sort of threat management, nor does any other class in the game. With the self healing and mitigation tools they have they don't really have to worry about surviving at all. It's not even very often tanks have to stun or silence certain mechanics any more. If you reduced tank mitigation skills by half, and removed the healing that tanks had, I bet healers would not complain as much, as they would have something to do.

So in a nut shell poor content design mixed with poor job design is what is causes these sort of problems. Personally DPS race content is just boring and that is sadly the direction this game has been going cause its got to appease the casuals.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Tanks primary function is holding threat (which is gone now), tank damage, and positioning the boss. There damage should almost always be negligible in a well designed trinity style game like this.

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~64% of a DPS's throughput is... "negligible"?

in the current unreal ultima trial the DTPS on tank with agro is pretty high, the two tanks have to use their short CDs on each other on CD or things will get nasty

first time im doing unreal for tells/retells, i was pretty surprised by the amount of DMG going out (feels akin to ultimate lvls, def more than most of savage)

granted a big perk of the fight is the ilvl lock, so u cant ever just disrespect the fight with gear

if that amount of DTPS is going to be a trend in the new ultimate and later tiers, tanks will need to have such tools to be able to survive

Damage disparity between healers and tanks is a good point.
Healers can out-heal a tank and has comparable dps.

Maybe healers heal too much…:confused:

Or maybe healers should lose their dots to make up for their massive healing capabilities.. ;)

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Originally Posted by Chopstix

in the current unreal ultima trial the DTPS on tank with agro is pretty high, the two tanks have to use their short CDs on each other on CD or things will get nasty

first time im doing unreal for tells/retells, i was pretty surprised by the amount of DMG going out (feels akin to ultimate lvls, def more than most of savage)

granted a big perk of the fight is the ilvl lock, so u cant ever just disrespect the fight with gear

if that amount of DTPS is going to be a trend in the new ultimate and later tiers, tanks will need to have such tools to be able to survive

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Yeah, but should all the classes be designed around the ultimate fights? There are 2 per expansion if we are lucky. And it doesn't have exactly the highest participation rate either.

There was another game that went this route... I can't quite remember it's name.

Yes, every job should be designed around being able to complete the hardest content. This is a no-brainer.

I leveled my BRD first and it was kind of silly seeing a WAR solo a boss not that I mind I suppose, but it can make the healer seem a bit pointless sometimes if they can just heal themselves.

I think they should add more damage abilities to healers to compensate. If tank dps is more involved I don’t see why healers cannot have the same thing.

how about we remove feint, bloodbath, second wind? dps shouldn't have any kind of healing or the ability to mitigate

They can have it, it's fine. It's a bit of support for the group (feint reduces damage taken by everyone after all) and for solo duties and fates, having some healing is needed.

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Originally Posted by AprilHanabira

how about we remove feint, bloodbath, second wind? dps shouldn't have any kind of healing or the ability to mitigate

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In my opinion the only DPS who should have party healing, resurrection or mitigation abilities are the "ranged supports" like Dancer and Bard.

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Originally Posted by NightHour

In my opinion the only DPS who should have party healing, resurrection or mitigation abilities are the "ranged supports" like Dancer and Bard.

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Psst. Red Mage had those before Dancer and Bard even existed. So did Paladin, for that matter.

Tbh I'd rather just see higher outgoing damage, I joke about how you don't need a Healer for bosses but the truth is that you don't need a Tank either in most cases.
Eithr or is usually enough.

I absolutely aggree that DRK in particular has way too much self healing. Thankfully it is only during the 2nd phase of its invulnerability, after that it doesn't have anything anymore !

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Psst. Red Mage had those before Dancer and Bard even existed. So did Paladin, for that matter.

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Psst, Red Mage did not exist before Bard or Paladin in this game. Bard and Paladin, existed far before Square Soft every thunk of Red Mage as a option in the original FF. Go play DnD.

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

Psst, Red Mage did not exist before Bard or Paladin in this game. Bard and Paladin, existed far before Square Soft every thunk of Red Mage as a option in the original FF. Go play DnD.

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Yeah, because referencing Final Fantasy jobs in relation to a Final Fantasy game definitely means someone is referencing D&D. You're pretty obviously being intentionally obtuse to give yourself a leg to stand on. Nice try.

And uh, protip: Bards and Paladins in D&D 1e and 2e (note: 3e/3.5e didn't exist yet) performed completely differently to what we have in modern iterations of WotC's games, up to and including rather noticeably lacking in terms of healing, utility, and the ability to resurrect others. :) Final Fantasy 1 in fact came out over a decade before D&D 3e, which is the edition in which both Bards and Paladins gained their modern identities insofar as D&D is concerned.

Furthermore, it does not matter that Red Mage did not exist before Bard and Paladin in FFXIV. What matters is job identity, which SE has clearly shown a desire to preserve. As such, Red Mage must retain its extreme utility, elsewise it will indeed lose that identity.