Has anyone quit healing?

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I concur with that. I end up doing quite a bit of fishing at times trying to get a perfect divination and give up and go for a weaker one sometimes.

Yet the solution for card fishing was remarkably simple IMO.

Keep the old card system exactly as it was.
Change Minor Arcana to examctly what it is now.
Got a card you can't use? Turn it into a weaker version of the balance. Balance used to be 10% if I recall, Lord/Lady of crowns is 8% on the right match.
We'd still have Royal Road instead of Divination, so we'd not need to fish seals for a stronger AoE buff.

Also, talking of non-Balance cards, when I'd queue AST pre-ShB, I used to give Enhanced Arrows to a MNK friend whose motto as MNK is "gotta go fast". And that made a tangible difference to his play. Cards like the Bole and The Ewer, which always felt situational were still useful Royal Road cards.

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I stopped caring about trying to always get perfect Divinations too. I used to enjoy the feeling of getting a lot of good draws, to go with the salt of getting multiple bad draws. Nowadays, there aren't really good draws to break up the monotony of being apathetic towards firing off a 2moon 1sun Divination, due to your draw and redraws getting you Balance -> Bole -> Balance -> Bole.


The Spire would need to be adjusted due to a lack of TP to regain, but idk, maybe buff DH instead? But otherwise I like that idea, that any card can be arcana'd as insurance against bad luck. That would make sense as an ability that an Astrologian in the world of Eorzea would develop, as opposed to developing a sudden case of selective amnesia towards all time mage-related abilities...

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Not that I'm the biggest fan of the card system as it's current iteration but what was super engaging about balance fishing? Like yeah, I enjoyed the old cards a bit more for sure, but it's not as if the new one is an overwhelming downgrade especially when you consider the other new tools we gained on AST like neutral and CI.

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Balance fishing is like Strength tanking in a leveling dungeon/progression in HW: It's possible with enough skill and knowledge, but totes worthless if they're just really burnt-out, or new/incompetent players that like have no knowledge as to why raiders are doing it like that


Or, just the fact that like Duty Finder can be really bad if the tank is fighting Nid with lv 15 gear...

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Originally Posted by Suishouhime

Because only bad ASTs reduced the class to Balance fishing, and, even so, Balance fishing was limited to parse-obsessed Savage raiders. Shockingly, some people used AST outside of weekly prog.

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I've not been a "bad ast" since it's inception but ultimately SB AST's optimal contribution to the group was to supply AoE Balance in 8man parties. Dungeons could see a bit more variation since you'd technically see better return for your investment by giving single buffs to dps doing a good job but Balance would still increase the effective dps of the group by more than any other card except maybe a Spear on a competent BRD.

Arrow was better used on BLMs than anything else, tossing it on a MNK in particular is just cruel. Do you/did you understand how MNK functions? I weep for the poor MNKs who ran out of TP and literally had to stand there doing nothing just for your amusement.

What truly marks a bad AST is a lack of understanding of other jobs and with this ShB AST still functions in a similar fashion which makes me concerned for your own performance more than anything given your card examples. You realize there is more to AST than fishing for the correct seals, right? If you toss a Lady on a DNC outside of their burst window you're nearly better served giving it to a WHM but if it's catching Technical, multiple Sabers and all further buffed by Devilment theres hardly a better spent card. The difference is seconds.

Everyone has a story about how they saved a bad situation with a well-placed Bole or Ewer, that's fine but how about the number of enrages avoided with an AoE Balance? How about now, when your opener goes absolutely perfect and you get to buff all your burstiest dps in line with divination? It also feels satisfying.

I will say I don't think AST has truly shined in casual/pug setting for its entire lifespan and that's no different now. It's like being top dps as a DNC - big oof, it makes you feel like 'why am I even buffing these people?' and that isn't a good feeling. Best advice is to just play ShB in a structured raid setting, it definitely isn't the catastrophe people make it out to be.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Everyone has a story about how they saved a bad situation with a well-placed Bole or Ewer, that's fine but how about the number of enrages avoided with an AoE Balance? How about now, when your opener goes absolutely perfect and you get to buff all your burstiest dps in line with divination? It also feels satisfying.

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Your viewpoint of today's AST would carry more weight if your best example of "satisfying" wasn't using buff extension -- which we no longer have -- on a buff that's been watered-down and duplicated to overwrite other buffs, erasing the variety of options we used to have pre-ShB.

Before 5.0, our DPS kit was better including buffs and extenders, and our card system was more engaging and enjoyable to play. And required LESS FISHING than today.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

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Honestly, I don't mind the new card system personally because RNG makes me want to jump off a cliff, and the idea of having a system a lot less reliant on it sounded great. Until I realized RNG was still just as frustrating. Not to mention the thing that makes this system 100 times worse than the older one could ever be. The amount of target swapping you need to do, especially during sleeve draw. My god, I have never been so miserable. I took AST through a single E1s run and I never wanted to touch it again. The opener was easily the worst thing I've ever experienced in this game. I don't mind high APM, but keep target swapping out of it. God forbid if you needed to do literally anything else in your opener other than sling cards, like use a heal, or an earthly star.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Honestly, I don't mind the new card system personally because RNG makes me want to jump off a cliff, and the idea of having a system a lot less reliant on it sounded great. Until I realized RNG was still just as frustrating. Not to mention the thing that makes this system 100 times worse than the older one could ever be. The amount of target swapping you need to do, especially during sleeve draw. My god, I have never been so miserable. I took AST through a single E1s run and I never wanted to touch it again. The opener was easily the worst thing I've ever experienced in this game. I don't mind high APM, but keep target swapping out of it. God forbid if you needed to do literally anything else in your opener other than sling cards, like use a heal, or an earthly star.

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It only gets worse in later savages. They keep tossing in huge damage spikes in the first 15s or so to prevent you from doing the stupid opener that they designed in the first place. The fact that I don't even have room to toss out any other oGCDs due to the opener, or I won't be able to do my damage-buffing properly, is just evidence of the fact that I'm playing a healer designed for a game that doesn't have FF14's fights.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

It only gets worse in later savages. They keep tossing in huge damage spikes in the first 15s or so to prevent you from doing the stupid opener that they designed in the first place. The fact that I don't even have room to toss out any other oGCDs due to the opener, or I won't be able to do my damage-buffing properly, is just evidence of the fact that I'm playing a healer designed for a game that doesn't have FF14's fights.

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The devs didn't design the openers people use, the community did, the devs design just allows said openers to be possible, SB mnk's TK opener was unintended(devs own admission) and it is why Perfect balance and tackles were nerfed/removed, and i'm betting current Ast's opener is another unintended because if a dev were to sit down on controller for 1hr doing it in any savage fight they'll go "there's an issue here".

Other jobs suffer from the devs oversight as well with regards, remember it took until late SB for Yoshi P to acknowledge that piercing debuff on Drg might be too strong and they never designed things with that in mind, their answer, ShB system, where before it was Whm/Drk/Mnk/Mch who needed proper attention to now being Whm/Sch/Ast/Drk/Mnk/Brd/Mch/Smn.

Yea real upgrade there >_> also gotta love the ones they noted themselves as needing work still require proper work on. Not saying they haven't tried Whm lily system upgrade is definitely an upgrade but whm is plagued with same problems(their kit getting stripped/low use abilities like fluid aura/lily system is only a reward for when unplanned damage etc) as before on top of healer design problems as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

The devs didn't design the openers people use, the community did, the devs design just allows said openers to be possible, SB mnk's TK opener was unintended(devs own admission) and it is why Perfect balance and tackles were nerfed/removed, and i'm betting current Ast's opener is another unintended because if a dev were to sit down on controller for 1hr doing it in any savage fight they'll go "there's an issue here".

Other jobs suffer from the devs oversight as well with regards, remember it took until late SB for Yoshi P to acknowledge that piercing debuff on Drg might be too strong and they never designed things with that in mind, their answer, ShB system, where before it was Whm/Drk/Mnk/Mch who needed proper attention to now being Whm/Sch/Ast/Drk/Mnk/Brd/Mch/Smn.

Yea real upgrade there >_> also gotta love the ones they noted themselves as needing work still require proper work on. Not saying they haven't tried Whm lily system upgrade is definitely an upgrade but whm is plagued with same problems(their kit getting stripped/low use abilities like fluid aura/lily system is only a reward for when unplanned damage etc) as before on top of healer design problems as a whole.

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I mean... yeah, you're right, there are pleeeenty of examples of dev intent not matching up with what players settle on. Still, I hold the devs accountable for what the playstyle is, as they and only they have the power to change what is available to us. All we can do is use the scraps of what remains of our kits as best we can.


And monks. My sympathies to those dudes. I've seen Drakanous's long long discussion video where he tears the current monk design apart. I hope, come the next Interviewing Season, we can get someone like him to ask a lot of hardball questions about healer design, like I'm hoping Drak plans to do for monks, too.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Ast's opener is another unintended because if a dev were to sit down on controller for 1hr doing it in any savage fight they'll go "there's an issue here".

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I firmly believe that the dev-intended opener is to stop maleficcing and just bash out the cards, especially before the Minor Arcana change.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

It only gets worse in later savages. They keep tossing in huge damage spikes in the first 15s or so to prevent you from doing the stupid opener that they designed in the first place. The fact that I don't even have room to toss out any other oGCDs due to the opener, or I won't be able to do my damage-buffing properly, is just evidence of the fact that I'm playing a healer designed for a game that doesn't have FF14's fights.

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I've never had issue with that, actually. Double Shields + Earthly Star before the fight begins is more than enough for E5-7S (-10s for E5, -3s for E6, -10s for E7).
E8S's first raidwide is singlehanded nullified by an AST, it just requires: DiurnalNeutral Helios, Nocturnal Helios, Nocturnal Opposition, Nocturnal Collective Unconcious, then Earthly Star and Horoscope cover all the damage taken. All of which can be done, or set up, prepull.
Now that may seem like a lot of tools used just on a single raidwide, but only single-target damage comes out for the following minute, so everything is back for when you need them.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Honestly, I don't mind the new card system personally because RNG makes me want to jump off a cliff, and the idea of having a system a lot less reliant on it sounded great. Until I realized RNG was still just as frustrating. Not to mention the thing that makes this system 100 times worse than the older one could ever be. The amount of target swapping you need to do, especially during sleeve draw. My god, I have never been so miserable. I took AST through a single E1s run and I never wanted to touch it again. The opener was easily the worst thing I've ever experienced in this game. I don't mind high APM, but keep target swapping out of it. God forbid if you needed to do literally anything else in your opener other than sling cards, like use a heal, or an earthly star.

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I think my suggestion addresses the RNG part of your complaint. Though not the target swapping, I find that a juggle too, I'm a controller user and am seeing more and more why this complaint exists when I'm trying to optimise my rDPS whilst doing mechanics at the same time.

At least I kinda see 3 camps:

"I love variety of cards and making the best use of them you can with the RNG system."
"I hate cards I feel I have no use for and end up card fishing, especially with situational cards like The Bole and The Ewer."
"I hate RNG because it is frustrating."

The card variety people would get their wish because the variety in cards would be back.
The card fishers can fall back on a safety card with Minor Arcana, the card is a slightly less efficient version of The Balance but means no card is wasted and it is still a decent enough buff.
The RNG haters could play at suboptimal level and focus on Minor Arcana if they really wanted to. At the same time, with there being not useless cards, that would take the edge off of RNG anyway, should they not want to play suboptimally.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

"I hate RNG because it is frustrating."

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Unpredictability is about the worst way you can possibly design both Tanks and Healers. And AST was designed with it as it's core job mechanic. They need stability, because routine random spike damage is stressful and frustrating for both.

A small amount of RNG is fine. Your Cure 1 can proc a free Cure 2. Great. Felt rewarding in low level play when MP resources actually mattered.

A combination of 6 Boles / Ewers / Spires on the old card system? Yeah, no.

just because RNG is involved in a mechanic doesnt mean it has to be completely unreliable all the time. several games tweak their RNG for this purpose; an example is tetris where the tetrominoes arent each generated randomly but instead they generate randomly ordered sequences of all tetrominoes, to ensure the player doesnt spend too long without a desired piece.

AST cards couldve went a similar direction, cycling through all 6 cards every 6 draws/redraws AND adding the 3 redraw charges to the old system wouldve been more than enough to both warrant an aoe balance every time celestial opposition came up and also letting you to get some other card you might've wanted.

i also think that rather than making all the cards the Exact Same Thing they shouldve made the other cards more desirable, either by adjusting potencies or giving cards more uses:

- For potencies the balance itself was incredibly broken and they shouldve tweaked the values so that the balance gave more or less the same dps gain in average as the spear and the arrow (and if they made spire give DH instead of TP, that too.)

- As for other uses to the less desirable cards in the old iteration of AST, Perhaps they couldve given an action that lets you play a card without using your royal road so you could save that for the balance. Perhaps you could have more than 1 card in your spread to actually be able to rely on the bole for specific parts of fights (at least during prog). perhaps they could let you stack royal road effects so youll actually want to see other cards before getting to the balance. perhaps something else entirely!

the solution of just making everything the same was extremely boring both lore wise and gameplay wise (and also inaccessible for controller players. not everyone has the motor skills to scroll up the party list 4 times in the 1.5 second cast of malefic so you dont clip the gcd with the play action)

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Unpredictability is about the worst way you can possibly design both Tanks and Healers. And AST was designed with it as it's core job mechanic. They need stability, because routine random spike damage is stressful and frustrating for both.

A small amount of RNG is fine. Your Cure 1 can proc a free Cure 2. Great. Felt rewarding in low level play when MP resources actually mattered.

A combination of 6 Boles / Ewers / Spires on the old card system? Yeah, no.

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By all means I can see an argument to tweak the RNG but not abolish it. Actually, my swearing taking a newbie through The Burn yesterday I think illustrates what you mean here. I got the Spear, I already had its seal, then The Ewer, then The Spear, The Ewer and nothing else, whilst still useful. It'd be a good improvement even if they adjusted Redraw to not repeat cards.

Well to be fair arrow on specific dps jobs whas a stronger dmg increase then balance whas. Just a lot of other job would have problems with the rotation too get everything in a specific buff window

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Originally Posted by QooEr

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the solution of just making everything the same was extremely boring both lore wise and gameplay wise (and also inaccessible for controller players. not everyone has the motor skills to scroll up the party list 4 times in the 1.5 second cast of malefic so you dont clip the gcd with the play action)

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Really feels like making the RNG mechanic of the RNG job fun was not high on their priority list. I like your ideas for fixing the system- nobody's really happy with all the homogenization, whether it's the jobs or the cards. I liked the synergy aspects of how some jobs liked crit or speed more than others, and would've rather seen the devs double down on those aspects, to the point where every comp has some quality synergy, instead of deleting them... Like adding a job trait to someone that makes them want to be a DH powerhouse, to go along with DH spires.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

Really feels like making the RNG mechanic of the RNG job fun was not high on their priority list. I like your ideas for fixing the system- nobody's really happy with all the homogenization, whether it's the jobs or the cards. I liked the synergy aspects of how some jobs liked crit or speed more than others, and would've rather seen the devs double down on those aspects, to the point where every comp has some quality synergy, instead of deleting them... Like adding a job trait to someone that makes them want to be a DH powerhouse, to go along with DH spires.

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And that RNG can really cause hassle in delaying buff windows so a maximized Divination can align with them. We had quite enough problems before all cards became the same thanks to RNG; this just really made it worse while roughly keeping the same RNG rate overall.

Yes OP.
I've effectively quit healing.
I'm relatively new to MMOs and this was my first time trying healing, but ...
Everyone is so bad.
Sure, to some extent we're all learning together and they're struggling too, but it's so hard when you're learning what to do and people are just standing in AoEs. I just can't get the hang of it. I swear I've wipe in at least 40% of the dungeons I heal.

I just came back to the game after a five month hiatus. Just finished Shadowbringers story, but I have no intention of leveling any healers even though my WHM is level 70.
I'm not going to be touching healers for a while until SE gets their act together and starts listening to the healer community. It's a long shot, I know; but given the player's discontent with healers in general (even the Japanese players are unhappy based on what I've heard) there is a small spark of hope. At least for the next expansion. :( For now, I'll stick to tanking and DPS. BLM, MNK, and GNB here I come.

I want to play WHM again, but it just isn't appealing. We need something new. Something that can revitalize the healer community. But who knows what's going to happen. The 5.3 live letter is coming in two weeks. We can only pray that Yoshi-P and the devs have something planned (again long shot).

I don't have trouble with the prepull stuff or opener in general but the fact that Sleeve can give you the same card three times makes me want to jump off the platform, escpecially during opener or 6min reopener.
If they tweaked it a little so Sleeve can't troll you as hard and make it always give you three different cards, I'd be much happier. There is still some RNG but it can't screw you completely.
It doesn't happen often but when it does, I want to smash something...

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Originally Posted by Rilifane

I don't have trouble with the prepull stuff or opener in general but the fact that Sleeve can give you the same card three times makes me want to jump off the platform, escpecially during opener or 6min reopener.
If they tweaked it a little so Sleeve can't troll you as hard and make it always give you three different cards, I'd be much happier. There is still some RNG but it can't screw you completely.
It doesn't happen often but when it does, I want to smash something...

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I'm still baffled. On launch, they shipped Sleeve Draw in the state where, not only can you draw the same card 3 times in a row, but you had to hit Draw before your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Arrows in a row. I know it's a bit unfair to give 'em flak for issues they've addressed, but I also think it's unfair to say "they're doing their best" when there are so, so many issues that still need to be addressed one year later that we're getting radio silence on.



Is it too much to ask to have our new AST abilities playtested thoroughly first, by people who enjoy and understand the job, so that we don't have these incredibly frustrating and obvious issues in the first place?

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

I'm still baffled. On launch, they shipped Sleeve Draw in the state where, not only can you draw the same card 3 times in a row, but you had to hit Draw before your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Arrows in a row. I know it's a bit unfair to give 'em flak for issues they've addressed, but I also think it's unfair to say "they're doing their best" when there are so, so many issues that still need to be addressed one year later that we're getting radio silence on.



Is it too much to ask to have our new AST abilities playtested thoroughly first, by people who enjoy and understand the job, so that we don't have these incredibly frustrating and obvious issues in the first place?

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I still give them flak for taking away energy drain on SCH without anything to replace. Literally anyone with the most basic understanding of the class would tell you that SCH flat out does not work without energy drain, they NEED some sort of DPS spell to spend aetherflow on, it is a worthless mechanic if you only have heals tied to it, it's like they learned nothing from SB lillies.


The worst part was they were told, vehemently, before release that it was a terrible idea. Players tested it, said SCH didn't feel right without ED.

Yet they still released SCH without energy drain, and, to nobody's surprise other than SE SCH did not work. Shocking innit?

Yet I'm 100% convinced they'll remove ED from SCH again come 6.0 and this time we won't get it back. Instead it'll be something dumb like "excess stacks turn into MP" and just make SCH even less interesting.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

I'm still baffled. On launch, they shipped Sleeve Draw in the state where, not only can you draw the same card 3 times in a row, but you had to hit Draw before your 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Arrows in a row. I know it's a bit unfair to give 'em flak for issues they've addressed, but I also think it's unfair to say "they're doing their best" when there are so, so many issues that still need to be addressed one year later that we're getting radio silence on.



Is it too much to ask to have our new AST abilities playtested thoroughly first, by people who enjoy and understand the job, so that we don't have these incredibly frustrating and obvious issues in the first place?

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If they had playtested we wouldn't have a useless stance that being Diurnal Sect for 4 levels, we wouldn't still have Undraw, there wouldn't be controller issues due to target switching so much, they give Healers the least amount of time and it shows, even dps and tanks are not immune to the neglect the lack of job design staff has caused, look at Smn/Drk/Mnk.

The job design team seriously needs a upgrade to at least 6 members, 1 overseerer, and 1 person per role (the ones SE set up so Tank, Healer, Caster, Melee, Ranged), it is showing how bad things are with their paltry 4 people for 17 jobs

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

I still give them flak for taking away energy drain on SCH without anything to replace. Literally anyone with the most basic understanding of the class would tell you that SCH flat out does not work without energy drain, they NEED some sort of DPS spell to spend aetherflow on, it is a worthless mechanic if you only have heals tied to it, it's like they learned nothing from SB lillies.


The worst part was they were told, vehemently, before release that it was a terrible idea. Players tested it, said SCH didn't feel right without ED.

Yet they still released SCH without energy drain, and, to nobody's surprise other than SE SCH did not work. Shocking innit?

Yet I'm 100% convinced they'll remove ED from SCH again come 6.0 and this time we won't get it back. Instead it'll be something dumb like "access stacks turn into MP" and just make SCH even less interesting.

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Honestly see that happening too, along with Whm losing cure 3 to cross role, have aero 3 re-package to be a Holy upgrade, Ast to get more ogcds that benefit Diurnal more than Nocturnal further invalidating it, all the while all 3 healers get more ogcd heals, which makes cure 2/benefic 2/adlo nigh useless as content design won't change, and our spam goes from 60%-90% of our time to 80%-100%.

At which point SE will finally say we'll listen to feedback and give back one DoT. >_> yes I have that little faith in healer design from the Devs over 5 years of Nocturnal never being good enough, whm getting nothing to combat what the other healers bring on their own merits(essentially the other 2 had to be gutted for Whm to shine that is patooky backwards design philosophy), and the multiple removal of sch DoTs in multiple expansions.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

Honestly see that happening too, along with Whm losing cure 3 to cross role, have aero 3 re-package to be a Holy upgrade, Ast to get more ogcds that benefit Diurnal more than Nocturnal further invalidating it, all the while all 3 healers get more ogcd heals, which makes cure 2/benefic 2/adlo nigh useless as content design won't change, and our spam goes from 60%-90% of our time to 80%-100%.

At which point SE will finally say we'll listen to feedback and give back one DoT. >_> yes I have that little faith in healer design from the Devs over 5 years of Nocturnal never being good enough, whm getting nothing to combat what the other healers bring on their own merits(essentially the other 2 had to be gutted for Whm to shine that is patooky backwards design philosophy), and the multiple removal of sch DoTs in multiple expansions.

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I do wonder what effects could be more useful with shields compared to regens?

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

If they had playtested we wouldn't have a useless stance that being Diurnal Sect for 4 levels, we wouldn't still have Undraw, there wouldn't be controller issues due to target switching so much, they give Healers the least amount of time and it shows, even dps and tanks are not immune to the neglect the lack of job design staff has caused, look at Smn/Drk/Mnk.

The job design team seriously needs a upgrade to at least 6 members, 1 overseerer, and 1 person per role (the ones SE set up so Tank, Healer, Caster, Melee, Ranged), it is showing how bad things are with their paltry 4 people for 17 jobs

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*cough* Fluid Aura *cough*

I wouldn't mind that one additional button if it was actually useful. Something like keeping the current seal but switching card. You have an Ewer, you get an Arrow with Undraw (or whatever they will call it), you have a Bole, you get a Balance etc. I'm probably the oddball here but I'm okay with some RNG as long as you also get tools to manipulate the outcome. You can get lucky and get maximum effect for no effort or you get unlucky and have to work for the (almost) same effect. But you can get it.
It would be a nice effect but nobody would worry about it outside optimized endgame content, making the additional button nice but not mandatory everywhere else. Just like almost no SCH manually places fairy outside endgame content or WHM happily clipping because those tiny things don't matter.

I'm placing my hopes in 6.0.
New healer, healer rework that gives us more interesting downtime, maybe some nice synergies between skills, some skills get reintroduced... things like that. And don't you dare crush my hopes with your realism. Until 6.0 is live I will dream.

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

If they had playtested we wouldn't have a useless stance that being Diurnal Sect for 4 levels, we wouldn't still have Undraw, there wouldn't be controller issues due to target switching so much, they give Healers the least amount of time and it shows, even dps and tanks are not immune to the neglect the lack of job design staff has caused, look at Smn/Drk/Mnk.

The job design team seriously needs a upgrade to at least 6 members, 1 overseerer, and 1 person per role (the ones SE set up so Tank, Healer, Caster, Melee, Ranged), it is showing how bad things are with their paltry 4 people for 17 jobs

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They have HOW many?! Considering they're under the impression that melee / ranged / caster deeps "should" count as separate roles ([X] Strongly Disagree- by that token, regen and shield healers should be given separate real estate on the job list, too...) I'm gonna revise my statement: what we need is a public test world. They should've done, like, 85% of the work to get QA running during quarantine. Yikes...
What's the source for that number, btw? Do they show up in the credits somewhere?

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

I do wonder what effects could be more useful with shields compared to regens?

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maybe not shields in the strict sense of the word but mitigation. nocturnal collective unconscious made noct ast from Literally not even worth considering to actually a decently good choice just from that change alone. 20 seconds of 10% mitigation every minute is huge.

in stormblood, part of what compounded the ast/sch meta is that whm/ast was unviable. not only was whm weak (it did more damage than sch actually) but also noct ast could not hope to compete with scholar's mitigation (sacred soil every 30s + fey covenant) despite having stronger shields than sch.

if nocturnal sect was to actually compete with diurnal itd have to have stronger heals OR provide actual mitigation beyond shields

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Originally Posted by QooEr

not only was whm weak (it did more damage than sch actually)

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WHM did less damage than SCH and AST even before taking into account Chain Strat, Fey Wind, and Card buffs.
WHM was outclassed by AST in healing output, mitigation, and damage. Not only that, but SCH overcame AST's biggest weakness (single target healing) while WHM only made it worse (Diurnal Benefic >>> Noct Benefic)

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Originally Posted by QooEr

noct ast could not hope to compete with scholar's mitigation (sacred soil every 30s + fey covenant) despite having stronger shields than sch.

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Noct AST couldn't hope to compete with Scholar's healing output, not mitigation. Whispering Dawn was free and fantastic, and Indom was 500 potency on a 30s cooldown.

But most importantly, when it came to single-target healing. Noct + WHM only had Essential Dignity and Tetragrammaton before breaking into GCDs
Diurnal + Scholar had Essential Dignity, Excog, Embrace (buffable by Rouse and Convalesence), and Fey Union (even more uses with prepull AF and quickened AF), along with Diurnal Benefic.

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

They have HOW many?! Considering they're under the impression that melee / ranged / caster deeps "should" count as separate roles ([X] Strongly Disagree- by that token, regen and shield healers should be given separate real estate on the job list, too...) I'm gonna revise my statement: what we need is a public test world. They should've done, like, 85% of the work to get QA running during quarantine. Yikes...
What's the source for that number, btw? Do they show up in the credits somewhere?

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...threads/391471

Sebazy did an excellent thread about it at the end of SB the amount of people hasn't changed with ShB based on its credits, the job design team is understaffed and it will only get worse the more jobs added.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...threads/391471

Sebazy did an excellent thread about it at the end of SB the amount of people hasn't changed with ShB based on its credits, the job design team is understaffed and it will only get worse the more jobs added.

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Sorry, having a little difficulty with the link- which forum is it from? It redirects me to the EN top page, since forum ID 619 is that. I wanna see this thread, this sounds spicy.

Fixed Link:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/391471

Quote:

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Fixed Link:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/391471

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Thanks! I actually looked into the credits myself and found this:
https://i.imgur.com/TqJqpAQ.png
The battle system team saw the previous lead, Kei Sato, leave, then get replaced with someone who was on the team prior, and we got a new assistant designer. So the situation hasn't changed at all, really... Still just 4 people. I gotta hold out hope for Hironori Isami to turn out to be a healer main, honestly. Or for Tsuyoshi Yokozawa to have some kind of interview / Q+A / dev workshop panel in the near future so that we can raise our concerns to the person in charge directly. This team is almost certainly overworked, given how small they are in relation to everything going on around them (looking at you, all the dozens of people involved in encounter design.)


Blue Mage is technically a "6th" role, since I don't see a separate listing for them, isn't it? If we go with the flawed "deeps = 3 roles lol" logic. So we've got 4 people working on 6 roles... w-why? why isn't this team twice its current size? twelve, answer me, whyyyyy

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

So we've got 4 people working on 6 roles... w-why? why isn't this team twice its current size? twelve, answer me, whyyyyy

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Someone made a post earlier this month(?) that answers that question. I can't find it at the moment, but lemme paraphrase it:
Yoshi-P wants more people on his team, but it's hard to actually expand the team. He feels he ultimately has to find people that already have certain job experience and who have already worked with the team to some extent so you're not adding people who might not work well with the rest of the team, and because training people in takes way more work than you'd think.

Blizzard tried to hire some new people to help work on WoW before Warlords of Draenor (I think that post said WoD...) and trying to integrate the new people in took away a lot of dev time. Then, after they had all these new people there was actually a content bottleneck where more stuff was being made than the QA team could review and balanced and checked both against the existing content as well as the new content everyone was trying to add.
In the end, ironically, because they hired more people a lot less content was able to be put into the game than usual.

I'm not saying that FF14 is healthy with 4 people working on jobs, but Yoshi P has expressed he isn't in a position where he can just hire some people and see who works out.

E4S Clear no healer
Feel like this has interesting implications for fight design/healer design.

I really hope that's not the future SE has been aiming towards...

Even if that's only possible because pld and smn are both extremely overpowered. (pld has godly self sustain, can solo lots of content every other job can't) its still incredibly damning.


edit: what this should be taken as, is proof that healing requirements are too low between lack of frequency and levels of damage and that SE's pure healing ideas need to be confined to the bin permanently and start giving us back our downtime dps abilities again

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Originally Posted by TwistedTea

E4S Clear no healer
Feel like this has interesting implications for fight design/healer design.

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1st off impressive grats to them

2nd While having 30 ilvs more than max gear when this was current it highlights how low healing requirements are that you can ignore an entire role within the same expansion the content is released in, not even half way done at that, this will get easier from patch 5.4 due to another 30 ilvs of gear being added.

I hope this may finally be the thing that gets them to open their traps about their healer direction, slim hope as that is, if this was 6.0 I would've write it off as unsync shenanigans but it's not there equal level to it a role should not be allowed to be taken out, you couldn't do that with Neo or Godka.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crushnight

1st off impressive grats to them

2nd While having 30 ilvs more than max gear when this was current it highlights how low healing requirements are that you can ignore an entire role within the same expansion the content is released in, not even half way done at that, this will get easier from patch 5.4 due to another 30 ilvs of gear being added.

I hope this may finally be the thing that gets them to open their traps about their healer direction, slim hope as that is, if this was 6.0 I would've write it off as unsync shenanigans but it's not there equal level to it a role should not be allowed to be taken out, you couldn't do that with Neo or Godka.

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Small correction the video has them in gear that is equal to the max when E4s was current so savage when it is relevant can be done without a single healer, devs care to comment? No silence and twiddle thumbs and bury your head in the sands that healers are fine when HIGH END CONTENT DOESN'T NEED THEM?!! Ok enjoy continuing down the path where healers will eventually be left out of groups in all content barring df due to your ineptitude.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Someone made a post earlier this month(?) that answers that question. I can't find it at the moment, but lemme paraphrase it:
Yoshi-P wants more people on his team, but it's hard to actually expand the team. He feels he ultimately has to find people that already have certain job experience and who have already worked with the team to some extent so you're not adding people who might not work well with the rest of the team, and because training people in takes way more work than you'd think.

Blizzard tried to hire some new people to help work on WoW before Warlords of Draenor (I think that post said WoD...) and trying to integrate the new people in took away a lot of dev time. Then, after they had all these new people there was actually a content bottleneck where more stuff was being made than the QA team could review and balanced and checked both against the existing content as well as the new content everyone was trying to add.
In the end, ironically, because they hired more people a lot less content was able to be put into the game than usual.

I'm not saying that FF14 is healthy with 4 people working on jobs, but Yoshi P has expressed he isn't in a position where he can just hire some people and see who works out.

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The best time to start something is NOW. Time will pass regardless. From what I see in the credits you have one battle design manager, 2 people working hard, and one intern learning

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Originally Posted by Gravagar

Thanks! I actually looked into the credits myself and found this:
https://i.imgur.com/TqJqpAQ.png
The battle system team saw the previous lead, Kei Sato, leave, then get replaced with someone who was on the team prior, and we got a new assistant designer. So the situation hasn't changed at all, really... Still just 4 people.

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It might be, in a sense, three and a half now.

Here's the Stormblood credit section (Sato is separate).
https://i.imgur.com/bMAxSoK.png

Here's Heavensward.
https://i.imgur.com/z1cPuPz.png

'Assistant' Battle System Designer seems like it's a bit less weighty.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PondHollow

It might be, in a sense, three and a half now.

Here's the Stormblood credit section (Sato is separate).
https://i.imgur.com/bMAxSoK.png

Here's Heavensward.
https://i.imgur.com/z1cPuPz.png

'Assistant' Battle System Designer seems like it's a bit less weighty.

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Assistant might mean they're new to the team, but being mentored. So, I guess that applies the whole "you get less work done while mentoring" thing. Maybe we actually only have, effectively, 2 people on the team right now.