Why I Decided to Become an Elitist

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

Funny, because in these two posts I see the same arrogance, rude, and hateful attitude they so openly speak against. Two wrong doesn't make a right. You are just as arrogant, rude, and hateful as the elitists that you talk down on. Discrimination is discrimination, it doesn't matter if you discriminates against those who are more or less accomplished in game.

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http://i.imgur.com/Taeq3i4.gif

We are talking about a behavior IN-GAME.

Nothing in those posts was rude, or hateful. Bloody hell, what are we actually trying to discuss anymore?



my brain hurts. :(

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

http://i.imgur.com/Taeq3i4.gif

We are talking about a behavior IN-GAME.

Nothing in those posts was rude, or hateful. Bloody hell, what are we actually trying to discuss anymore?

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Right, because labeling an entire group of people as "arrogant, rude and very anti-social" based on a category isn't the very definition of discrimination. Saying someone deserves the "scorn" or is "nothing but an ant on the world map" isn't hateful at all.

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

Right, because labeling an entire group of people as "arrogant, rude and very anti-social" based on a category isn't the very definition of discrimination. Saying someone deserves the "scorn" or is "nothing but an ant on the world map" isn't hateful at all.

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I'm talking about people that openly refer to themselves as elitist, and ARE arrogant, ARE rude, and VERY anti-social, you think that's acceptable?
All I'm doing is calling a spade a spade.

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Originally Posted by HexWeaver

I'm talking about people that openly refer to themselves as elitist, and ARE arrogant, ARE rude, and VERY anti-social, you think that's acceptable?
All I'm doing is calling a spade a spade.

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Not anymore acceptable than your behavior.

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

Not anymore acceptable than your behavior.

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This feels like a twisted version of "I know you are but what am I!".

HexWeaver, for your sanity, I'd advise backing away slowly at this time.

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

Not anymore acceptable than your behavior.

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It's perfectly okay to have a different point of view, but deflection and unreasonable replies that don't make sense or twists contexts isn't really the way to go I'm afraid.

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

Not anymore acceptable than your behavior.

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Your sensitivity is cracking me up, I aimed nothing at you personally but you're snapping at me like an angry dog for calling out bullying, brutish behaviour.
If you wanna get all butthurt and think I'm referring to you then by all means go ahead. ;)

So the lesson here is that both groups seem to be fed up with each other. The difference is that elitists are perfectly happy just grouping up with each other, while everyone else wants to group up with elitists. (So long as they shut up and carry them without complaining.)

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

So the lesson here is that both groups seem to be fed up with each other. The difference is that elitists are perfectly happy just grouping up with each other, while everyone else wants to group up with elitists. (So long as they shut up and carry them without complaining.)

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Speak for yourself, I'd happily (and have done) play and learn with a bunch of newbies than have some person with a demon brick lodged up their backside laugh and poke fun at me while i'm trying to learn and improve my skills.

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Originally Posted by HexWeaver

Speak for yourself, I'd happily (and have done) play and learn with a bunch of newbies then have some person with a demon brick lodged up their backside laugh and poke fun at me while i'm trying to learn and improve my skills.

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Then you've already solved your own problem and have no reason to post here anymore. =o

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Then you've already solved your own problem and have no reason to post here anymore. =o

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Public forum bruh, besides, mostly..

http://cdn1.michaeljacksonsmuseum.co...pcorn-meme.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

So the lesson here is that both groups seem to be fed up with each other. The difference is that elitists are perfectly happy just grouping up with each other, while everyone else wants to group up with elitists. (So long as they shut up and carry them without complaining.)

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No, the lesson here is that far too many people do not understand the difference between actually being elite and being an elitist. Some seem to want to view elitism and elitists in a counter-intuitively positive light, and others appear to think elitists are players who aspire to being among the elite. The truth is, no one wants to group with elitists becuase their behavior can be extremely counter productive.

TL;DR Being elite is NOT the same as being an elitist or participating in elitism.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

So the lesson here is that both groups seem to be fed up with each other. The difference is that elitists are perfectly happy just grouping up with each other, while everyone else wants to group up with elitists. (So long as they shut up and carry them without complaining.)

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If that is what you took from this thread, then you seriously fail at reading comprehension.

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Originally Posted by HexWeaver

Public forum bruh, besides, mostly..

http://cdn1.michaeljacksonsmuseum.co...pcorn-meme.jpg

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The funniest thing to me is that you get so pissy with your arguments, when in reality you agree completely with the OP. They (and everyone else) have been saying all along "if you don't like elitists, don't group with them, find people who have the same experience as you do".

The response to that has been a resounding "but I don't want to spend the time to do that! STOP BEING ROOD!"

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

If that is what you took from this thread, then you seriously fail at reading comprehension.

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If that's what you believe then you haven't read any of the first 30 pages.

(Also I love that every person railing against elitists because they have "bad attitudes" resorts to insulting people and dismissing their arguments out of hand as a way to try to make their point that elitists are rude...)

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

No, the lesson here is that far too many people do not understand the difference between actually being elite and being an elitist. Some seem to want to view elitism and elitists in a counter-intuitively positive light, and others appear to think elitists are players who aspire to being among the elite. The truth is, no one wants to group with elitists becuase their behavior can be extremely counter productive.

TL;DR Being elite is NOT the same as being an elitist or participating in elitism.

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There have been a lot of people who agree with the OP making exactly the same point. Elitist is used broadly to define anyone more skilled, even if the person isn't being rude at all they often get abused for trying to help. Also that the vast majority of the people the community sees as elitists (aka the 1wipedisband PFs) are not elite players at all, but people who just want to be carried.

None of us really care if you are elite. What we care about is that if you join group content, be it PF or DF that you care about how performance affects others.

We would like to know if you are new to the encounter.

If you are new, that you be receptive to advice.

If you have tried something before, and repeatedly died that you make the attempt to find out why and fix the problem(watch video, read guide, ask someone get better gear ect.) Please don't join DF for the same duty if you were just dead more than you were alive without doing something first.

I don't expect you to watch a video before you try everything unless you know have a hard time with new content. I expect you to know who you are by now.

If you try, care about your performance, are receptive to advice I will stay to the end of the timers and I will staunchly defend you against anyone who belittles/bullies you.

Basically if you care about me and my time I will care about you and your time. If you expect to be carried and bristle at advice....go to hell.

Most people do not have an issue with skilled players.
Most people do not like players that are assholes to others due to not meeting some personal their own expectations.
There is a way to be skilled in this game, and not be a gigantic twat.
Most casual players are not leeches.
Most skilled players are not assholes.

There are no absolutes when it comes to people and gamers.


Also, the refusal to accept the common definition of "elitist" in this thread is mind-boggling. What term would you prefer that we use for those players that think they are better than everyone else and berate anyone who doesn't hold up to their self-imposed standards?

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

None of us really care if you are elite. What we care about is that if you join group content, be it PF or DF that you care about how performance affects others.

We would like to know if you are new to the encounter.

If you are new, that you be receptive to advice.

If you have tried something before, and repeatedly died that you make the attempt to find out why and fix the problem(watch video, read guide, ask someone get better gear ect.) Please don't join DF for the same duty if you were just dead more than you were alive without doing something first.

I don't expect you to watch a video before you try everything unless you know have a hard time with new content. I expect you to know who you are by now.

If you try, care about your performance, are receptive to advice I will stay to the end of the timers and I will staunchly defend you against anyone who belittles/bullies you.

Basically if you care about me and my time I will care about you and your time. If you expect to be carried and bristle at advice....go to hell.

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So basic respect and courtesy :)

Perhaps that is what this thread should have been discussing. It's not really a matter of the elite vs. casual, It's about those who have respect for their fellow players, and those who don't. Both attitudes can be found within all skill levels.



edit: woopsie, double-post X:

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

None of us really care if you are elite. What we care about is that if you join group content, be it PF or DF that you care about how performance affects others.

We would like to know if you are new to the encounter.

If you are new, that you be receptive to advice.

If you have tried something before, and repeatedly died that you make the attempt to find out why and fix the problem(watch video, read guide, ask someone get better gear ect.) Please don't join DF for the same duty if you were just dead more than you were alive without doing something first.

I don't expect you to watch a video before you try everything unless you know have a hard time with new content. I expect you to know who you are by now.

If you try, care about your performance, are receptive to advice I will stay to the end of the timers and I will staunchly defend you against anyone who belittles/bullies you.

Basically if you care about me and my time I will care about you and your time. If you expect to be carried and bristle at advice....go to hell.

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THIS. Plain and simple. I said it before and I'll say it again: There are those of us who play this "just-a-game" and work hard to not only be good at it, but ensure that when we are part of a team in-game - which is the core of MMO gaming, mind you - we are able to perform at our best.

And there are those who don't care. On both sides. Those who are good and feel the need to look down upon others and refuse to help, AND those who refuse to make effort, improve, or receive help from those who have more knowledge/skill/experience. Dealing with either type is NOT fun, whether you're good or not. It's a huge buzzkill. Especially when we are scoffed at or shunned for making the efforts to be good. I would dare say this is what very well creates the Elitists that people so very much hate (beyond of course people who are just naturally inclined to have a nasty attitude). The way this game is designed, it truly doesn't matter if I'm good and 7 others are bad any more than if I'm bad and 7 others are good. But if everyone takes charge and exercises a little personal accountability and TRIES TO BE GOOD, by properly preparing, making efforts, and following through, then the gap and distinctions quickly don't matter and disappear.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Perhaps that is what this thread should have been discussing. It's not really a matter of the elite vs. casual, It's about those who have respect for their fellow players, and those who don't. Both attitudes can be found within all skill levels.

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That was kind of what this entire thread was all about, people who don't like the way something is phrased refusing to listen and calling people elitist.

If someone is giving you advice, pay less attention to how they say it and more attention to what they say. Too many people in the game get upset and either refuse to listen, or just lash out.

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Story time : Note, this actually happened to me.

I was running Labyrinth one day for a weekly and I noticed as we reached the armor that no one was keeping the pots alive.

Me : Guys, we need to keep the pots, or at least one of them alive. If we don't we'll wipe.
Alliance member : Don't tell me how to play the game, I pay every month and I'll play how I want.
Me : I'm not telling you how to play, I'm telling you that keeping at least one pot alive is the bare minimum standard for clearing this fight.
Alliance member : Having ANY standards is elitist!
Me : Then you need to take it up with SE, because it's a standard they set.

That wasn't even the first time that day I'd been called an elitist, or even the silliest reason for it. I felt a lot the same way as the OP at that moment : "Screw it, if knowing what to do makes me an elitist well I guess I'm an elitist".

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

That was kind of what this entire thread was all about, people who don't like the way something is phrased refusing to listen and calling people elitist.
If someone is giving you advice, pay less attention to how they say it and more attention to what they say. Too many people in the game get upset and either refuse to listen, or just lash out.

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Except for the fact that the OP typed up a novel making it sound like the world was against the poor elitists*, that they are the true victims due to having to deal with the dirty casual folk who laugh at the constant failures in games , have no desire to better themselves, who merely want handouts, who won't bother trying to better themselves. The struggle! It was a poorly written, and very sensationalized piece of work. And it got a lot of bandwagoners.

It was not a nice post asking people to show respect to their fellow player. Perhaps to put a little move effort from BOTH sides into making things work when put together in a duty, it was an attempt to make a certain group feel better at the expense of another. All the while throwing jabs at those less skilled.

And then even yourself:

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

So the lesson here is that both groups seem to be fed up with each other. The difference is that elitists are perfectly happy just grouping up with each other, while everyone else wants to group up with elitists. (So long as they shut up and carry them without complaining.)

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Once again implying that the elitists* are perfectly fine and happy, but it's everyone else that is causing the trouble.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

That was kind of what this entire thread was all about, people who don't like the way something is phrased refusing to listen and calling people elitist.

If someone is giving you advice, pay less attention to how they say it and more attention to what they say. Too many people in the game get upset and either refuse to listen, or just lash out.

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And you are still passing the blame onto the non-elitist* claiming it's their fault for not taking the advice well, they're the ones lashing out. As if the elitist* knows best, and should be able to control everyone else in all situations.

It is so much than one small example.

I would love for you to go through this thread and dig out all the people who preached respect for all players. You'll find that the amount of people with this message were far outnumbered by those bashing on the other side.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

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Story time : Note, this actually happened to me.

I was running Labyrinth one day for a weekly and I noticed as we reached the armor that no one was keeping the pots alive.

Me : Guys, we need to keep the pots, or at least one of them alive. If we don't we'll wipe.
Alliance member : Don't tell me how to play the game, I pay every month and I'll play how I want.
Me : I'm not telling you how to play, I'm telling you that keeping at least one pot alive is the bare minimum standard for clearing this fight.
Alliance member : Having ANY standards is elitist!
Me : Then you need to take it up with SE, because it's a standard they set.

That wasn't even the first time that day I'd been called an elitist, or even the silliest reason for it. I felt a lot the same way as the OP at that moment : "Screw it, if knowing what to do makes me an elitist well I guess I'm an elitist".

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Anecdotal evidence doesn't help here. There are also plenty of stories to be found of elitists* screaming at people over nothing. We all have stories to share. But in the case of your example, sounds like they were screwing with you. Labrynth is a troll fest. Welcome to the party.

*I am using their term. In no way to I think a skilled player is the same as an elitist. Tired of splitting hairs.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Except for the fact that the OP typed up a novel making it sound like the world was against the poor elitists*, that they are the true victims due to having to deal with the dirty casual folk who laugh at the constant failures in games , have no desire to better themselves, who merely want handouts, who won't bother trying to better themselves. The struggle! It was a poorly written, and very sensationalized piece of work. And it got a lot of bandwagoners.

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You know as well as I do that there are absolutely people out there who have no desire to better themselves and refuse to take any advice. There are only so many times a person can be expected to tolerate being attacked because they're trying to give someone advice, I understand where the OP's frustration with this is coming from.

There are also a lot of people who post on the forums exactly the same thing with the roles reversed and all you hear is people cheering them on. "Yeah, screw elitists! They don't run the game!", but when someone is tired of wiping to a mechanic they've already explained 10 times and leaves the group it's "Why do people always drop? How am I supposed to get this done if no one is willing to run it for me! Learning groups take too long to form!" and again all they get is praise. If you even suggest they should try to watch a video or practice in DF or start a learning group, you're suddenly the worst thing since Hitler.

So when people experience exactly this kind of abuse we should suck it up because "Oh they were probably just trolls" or "that's just anecdotal personal experience that you've been through several times a month, our experience is more valid."

I'm glad the OP posted this, because honestly a lot of the people who cry "elitist" are people who treat other players like their personal paid clear groups.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Well that took a turn! lol.

I am now a hate monger because I refuse to accept a positive spin on Elitists. Very well.

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No but ironically you're being your version of elitist by telling people they need to conform to the way you use words.

60 pages later and most of you don't understand I was using the word "elitist" ironically.

Like "You're going to call me an elitist because I actually try. Okay, fine, then I'm an elitist."

I wasn't embracing lording anything over people but I do think wanting to do your best is a superior attitude to being whiny and blaming others for your own failures.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I don't see anyone discriminating against elite players, hardcore players, casual players or any other players, though I do see people complaining about, and criticizing the behavior of elitists and elitism in general. Like some other posters in this topic, you need to separate "elite" from elitist and elitism. They are not the same.

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I'm sick of people making the point that being elite is better than being elitist. Being elite means being superior. Being elitist means feeling you are superior. So it's okay to be superior but you're not allowed to believe you're superior?

That reminds me of this boss I had. She was like "We know you're smart but it's not very endearing to remind us of that." This was in response to my correcting a mistake in a pharmacy that would've cost a client an extra $150. I did not say anything to make anyone feel bad or comment on this situation in any way. My boss literally had a problem with my being excellent. In fact, the customer overheard some of the things she said to me that day and gave her all kinds of holy hell.

Which brings me back to a couple of very important ideas:

1) You all don't know me. I'm nothing like the negative elitists some of you are envisioning. I am super nice and help new players all the time. I don't think it makes me a bad person because I run out of patience sometimes and need to take a break to do my own thing. I wouldn't run out of patience as easily if people who can't didn't sometimes have such unreasonable expectations on the people who can. It is not fair to expect to be carried by other players whether you are in PF OR DF. Everyone is new at some point and people have to learn. They're not going to be perfect but then nobody in this thread has demanded perfection, just some modicum of effort.

I showed my partner what I was talking about earlier. I joined a Garuda story mode as a tank (to help a new player btw!). One of the people we got via DF was an Arcanist, not a Summoner. He was doing very poor dps. The adds blew up all the rocks and we wiped. And he said: "Scarlet you need to help us DPS the adds." That's when I called my partner over and we had a good laugh. I was like: "This is what I was talking about in that thread. Someone can't do their job and expects me to somehow make up the difference."

I wasn't rude to him or anything and we got the clear the next attempt but I certainly would've left if we didn't get the win in a couple more tries for the same reasons. And it wouldn't have been rude for me to do so.

2) The next thing is that I am allowed to be excellent. There is nothing wrong with believing that I am superior by some metric e.g. at Titan EX, at troubleshooting computer errors in a pharmacy, or whatever. It does not mean I'm superior on every metric and I should not have to be self-deprecating or fake humility because others are made uncomfortable by my light. Not only should someone not have to dim their light for others but one can't dim their light. It will always find a way to shine through and then people will resent you double: because you have some skill they don't and because you were unable to keep this knowledge from them.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

If you even suggest they should try to watch a video or practice in DF or start a learning group, you're suddenly the worst thing since Hitler.

So when people experience exactly this kind of abuse we should suck it up because "Oh they were probably just trolls" or "that's just anecdotal personal experience that you've been through several times a month, our experience is more valid."

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Let me share tonights experience. I started a T9 TRAINING party in PF. It was listed as a training party. After 90 minutes, we finally get 8 people. Go in, we eventually wipe and one of the elitists start going off on people not knowing the fight. He rage quits and the party ends up disbanding. Not once did he explain to anyone what they did wrong. It's these experiences are why people can't learn fights, because none of the elitists will give people a chance to learn. They sabotage training parties and expect perfection.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I'm sick of people making the point that being elite is better than being elitist. Good Stuff

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You know people just gonna take what u just said and try to make it out as you looking down on others one way or another xD.

I honestly don't know why people are hating on the jerk 'elitists' when they wouldn't even care about all this discussion to begin with. They wouldn't see the need to discuss all this in the forums to explain themselves. You can probably even leave them alone in their own bubble.

Personally, I used to give out instructions to players who need it in dungeons and primals (sometimes even on basic class functions) but I don't put it with pretty words. I just go straight to the point, like a telegram, because I don't like to keep other people standing and waiting. Makes sense no?

http://puu.sh/hy839/6c1c2590ab.jpg

In this pic (right click image and click on view image), it actually went well. People were receptive and listened and we managed to clear AV but most of the time people just ignore me when i type like this and also plenty who cussed out at me and some even retaliated with doing the exact opposite of what I tell them out of spite even if it means failure. Sometimes the one who gets rude is not even the one I'm giving instruction to. A GM hasn't come running for me yet but why should I risk it or even deal with any abuse for typing out helpful instructions? I've since stopped saying anything to randoms and just leave if the situation is hopeless (speaking up? that's harassment!).

You can argue with me that some bad apples shouldn't stop me from being helpful to the innocent casuals but it doesn't seem worth it anymore. I've completed most of the combat content with my own FC first. Anything I do without m FC won't be that urgent anymore and when there are people who need the clear but also working against their own clear (not accepting advise/criticism, harassment fear mongering, intentionally playing poorly to bait people into admitting using parser, etc), it just doesn't seem worth the hassle. When you have your own side (the ones who still need clears) actively working on turning away helpful veteran players, you're only going to get the asshole veteran ones.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Let me share tonights experience. I started a T9 TRAINING party in PF. It was listed as a training party. After 90 minutes, we finally get 8 people. Go in, we eventually wipe and one of the elitists start going off on people not knowing the fight. He rage quits and the party ends up disbanding. Not once did he explain to anyone what they did wrong. It's these experiences are why people can't learn fights, because none of the elitists will give people a chance to learn. They sabotage training parties and expect perfection.

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It's entirely possible that he was someone who didn't have the clear but knew more of the fight than you did and was frustrated because you didn't reach the part of the fight he actually needed "training" on.

Still, people in this thread have time and again stated and I feel it should be re-iterated : We don't expect perfection, but we do expect effort and some modicum of improvement. If you did both of these things and the person still left, then I'm very sorry you encountered a jerk when you were trying to do everything right. No one should verbally abuse you either, I'm sorry to hear that and I sincerely hope you reported them.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Or could have been as easily someone who didn't have a clue, didn't read the description and joined expecting a one-shot carry also.

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This is true also.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Let me share tonights experience. I started a T9 TRAINING party in PF. It was listed as a training party. After 90 minutes, we finally get 8 people. Go in, we eventually wipe and one of the elitists start going off on people not knowing the fight. He rage quits and the party ends up disbanding. Not once did he explain to anyone what they did wrong. It's these experiences are why people can't learn fights, because none of the elitists will give people a chance to learn. They sabotage training parties and expect perfection.

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i am sorry but what you are describing is really just a troll/jerk/whatever have it,what happens when you call everyone an elitist like that is you just make the word more open for abuse.Oh so you've clearly wiped us on purpose ELITIST JERK,oh so you are refusing to heal dps,ELITIST JERK,and eventually it reaches what it is now,just a name to call everyone doing anything bad,and then by others as a word to use for anyone doing anything in a manner they don't like
also one interesting interesting thing to note,no matter how much the players say elitists are jerks,call everyone names and just in general ruin the experience,it's not very often that you hear filthy casual used as a serious insult in comparison to elitist jerk,or have said elitists make as many stereotypes about others as there are about them(from pooping in socks to living in mom's basement)even reaching the levels of counting things such as playing for long times(which by all means should be applauded cause it's dedication)as a bad thing(for example:EFFIN NO-LIFE ELITIST JERK)

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Still, people in this thread have time and again stated and I feel it should be re-iterated : We don't expect perfection, but we do expect effort and some modicum of improvement. If you did both of these things and the person still left, then

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There was no chance for improvement because all this happened on the first wipe. Second, yes, elitists expect perfection. Thats why we see tons of PF that say "1 wipe = kick" Thats why people rage quit from a training party after 1 wipe, because all the elitists expect perfection.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

all the elitists expect perfection.

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That's called a hasty generalization and it's a logical fallacy.
http://www.onegoodmove.org/fallacy/hasty.htm

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Originally Posted by Brill_

There was no chance for improvement because all this happened on the first wipe. Second, yes, elitists expect perfection. Thats why we see tons of PF that say "1 wipe = kick" Thats why people rage quit from a training party after 1 wipe, because all the elitists expect perfection.

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Most of the people who start groups like that are not elite players, they're people who expect everyone else to be perfect so they don't have to put in any effort. They're people who want a carry.

Second, I guarantee you not one person who considers themselves "elite" expects perfection. (Except perhaps from themselves*)

And lastly, shutting down any attempt at understanding and painting everyone with the asshole brush is exactly why a lot of high-tier players don't even bother helping newbies anymore.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

No but ironically you're being your version of elitist by telling people they need to conform to the way you use words.

60 pages later and most of you don't understand I was using the word "elitist" ironically.

Like "You're going to call me an elitist because I actually try. Okay, fine, then I'm an elitist."

I wasn't embracing lording anything over people but I do think wanting to do your best is a superior attitude to being whiny and blaming others for your own failures.

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Using a word in it's accepted description is not being elitist.

So if you were using the term ironically, because people have been calling you an elitist even when you weren't, you're acknowledging that the term elitist is used in a negative fashion amongst this community.

And yes, trying to better yourself is always a good thing, however the way you came about making this point was to put down the other side unnecessarily. There are bad/rude players on ALL levels. I cannot stress this enough. Those People who will be entitled, people who have the mental maturity of a 5 year old, maybe people who are just naive when it comes to how to behave in an MMO. It is best if we all try to be better people, and ignore those who are going to rage and throw hissies. Ignore those who are going to claim you're elitist simply for wanting to abandon after 20 minutes of straight wipes, whatever the case is. There could have been a decent conversation going had there not been unnecessary attacks right out the gate.

64 pages? Wut? I stopped reading after about 10 pages, and then I see this thread again and it's up to 64 now. I... err... what am I even reading here?

... actually:

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

Snip.

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Both this guy and ThirdChild have the same mind as I do on this topic. I could share stories about a guy I know who isn't very good at playing the game and dodging things, but makes other random people I've met look even worse due to those people doing "Wipeonceinstaabandon"... but this said guy doesn't give up. But eh.

Now then:

http://images.onesite.com/capcom-uni...a4.gif?v=57960

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

When I join DF I expect there may be new players, and it is fun helping them (note helping, not carrying a dead weight) to get their first clear, even if a wipe or 3 is involved, laugh it off, bolster them, throw out some advice for next try. But I won't keep a plyer in who fails at the most basic things constantly, holds back the party and turns to insults when friendly advice is given or totally ignores it and continues to be a douche. I'll ask the party in party chat if they want to replace because, so the player can see why they are getting removed to try and shake them into seeing where the problem really lies. It always leads to a kick, tis a shame, but their actions where spoiling it for everyone else.

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I joined t9 through DF for the first time tonight and someone already got mad at me for only watching the cutscene :/

The typical questions followed and well, I am one of those who want to learn by doing it (and I think that's the best way for me*), so I did not watch a video. I felt really uncomfortable after this, because the other responses came off to me as negative, especially about the part for not watching a video.

I received some remarks for dieing early, someone would go mad because he/she studied so many vids and I didn't and in the end one of them would keep aggro'ing the boss to wipe us so he would get kicked.

Mind you, I did start a PF with a comment about "first time" and "learning it without having to watch a guide first" before entering the DF but other than a friend who went with me in the first place, no one else would join. Maybe it was because of the time (after midnight), but I have a bit of a bad feeling it won't be better if I try it during the day/evening again.

Well, at least my friend showed me a few things when we were in and I am grateful for that, but it's not like I begged her to do so. She also said that it's the only thing she'll tell me and that she'll always go in again with me to help me learn. I might be able to find a few more people who would go with me again, but I cannot say if it will be a full party.

tl;dr:
Went into t9 without watching a guide beforehand, got some negative responses but a few hints from a friend. Did start a PF before but wouldn't fill up in 1 hour - Now confused/unsure what (DF/PF) to use next time as it either contains mad/annoyed people or it's not a full group.


P.S.: I do not want to get carried. Even if I get a group full of people who have done it before (like t8) and I am the only one who didn't - I want to contribute to the fight, not lie around dead and try to understand what is going on. Gotta do t8 again to understand it fully though. Oh and I would never cuss at someone who gives out a helpful info to me. Biting a helping hand? Nah.


* I did so for t6 a while ago, but the screen looked messy to me and I couldn't really follow what was going on. Even if I understood a mechanic, doing it myself was giving me a hard time because I was kind of nervous. Just like now, while I am typing this post :S

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I'm sick of people making the point that being elite is better than being elitist. Being elite means being superior. Being elitist means feeling you are superior. So it's okay to be superior but you're not allowed to believe you're superior?

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Additional thought...I'm not making the point that elite is better than elitist, the point is they are entirely different things. Elitist is not a degree of being elite, it's not some kind of stepping stoneon the way to being elite, it's a behavior, not a status.

I honestly don't know where to begin. Being elite, means actually being elite. Being elitist means actively discriminating against those you believe are inferior to you. Being elitist does not confer elite status, nor is 'elitist' a status you can achieve, it's a behavior you indulge in. Believe you are superior all you like, but be honest with yourself about what being elitist actually means, and while your chugging along in you ego driven belief in your own superiority - whether deserved or not - do not be surprized by the negative reactions your little egobtrip will generate. In the meantime at least be honedt enough to accept that you are attempting to stretch the word "elitist" far beyond it's actual meaning, and in a way that is not in harmony with the comon use of the word.

At the end of the day, your abuse of the English language doesn't alter the fact that elitist doesn't mean what you think it means. A better word for what you are describing is pretentious.

Either way, thanks for replying, and once again confirming my original thought regarding what you are saying.

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redefining elitism to fit your framework, does not in fact redefine it. I've seen all of this before and what you a re talking about is not elitism, it's veteran player fatigue which brings with it a nasty dose of intolerance for other players, new players and anyone/anything that does not meet the exact specifications of the fatigued veteran player at that time.

The attitude that demands others watch a video before playing is selfish pure and simple. Many players wish to experience content the first time by actually playing it.Shocking I know, imagine that wanting to play this game instead if simply viewing it on You Tube....

Elitism stems from the elitist who believes themself rightly or wrongly, to be superior to others, not player fatigue.

Dressing up the bitter intolerance that comes from the fatigue as elitism doesn't make it elitism, even if rationalizing it that way makes you feel better about your self.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I'm sick of people making the point that being elite is better than being elitist. Being elite means being superior. Being elitist means feeling you are superior. So it's okay to be superior but you're not allowed to believe you're superior?

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Yes, they absolutely refuse to accept that reality. They'd rather it remain nothing more than a pejorative and only a pejorative despite the fact is has a perfectly acceptable definition that isn't at all a pejorative. It's close minded. Yes, it has a pejorative definition, but it also has one that isn't. BOTH are accurate uses of the word. This incessant push for there to be only one is inaccurate and comes from a group of people who wants to do nothing but push hate on others.

There is very explicitly a definition here http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/elitist?s=t that has no negative connotations at all. However, that is to be ignored it seems solely to support one definition that is entirely pejorative. It's ignorant to assume words have one meaning. It's ignorant to assume the one YOU want is the only one that is valid. THAT is being pretentious. Both the pejorative definition and the non-pejorative definition exist, are real, and are valid definitions of elitist whether you like it or not. If you have a problem with that definition take it up with dictionary.com. NOT us.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Let me share tonights experience. I started a T9 TRAINING party in PF. It was listed as a training party. After 90 minutes, we finally get 8 people. Go in, we eventually wipe and one of the elitists start going off on people not knowing the fight. He rage quits and the party ends up disbanding. Not once did he explain to anyone what they did wrong. It's these experiences are why people can't learn fights, because none of the elitists will give people a chance to learn. They sabotage training parties and expect perfection.

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That's just an a-hole. Not an elitist. Based on your story he never insinuated HE was elite. He was just being nasty. We have older and better words for these situations that have nothing to do with being elite. It was YOU who assumed he was elite based on nothing what so ever other than the fact he left in a hissy fit. That is a some pretty poor evidence someone is an elitist.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

And lastly, shutting down any attempt at understanding and painting everyone with the asshole brush is exactly why a lot of high-tier players don't even bother helping newbies anymore.

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I hear exactly this from people who would be dubbed "elitists" more than anything. Their sick of the "casual" crowd treating them like crap when they just want to help. Maybe if people stopped using the elitist title so inappropriately. Just like that previous example. The person got frustrated and left and got called an elitist here yet no possible information existed to say that person was elite to begin with. It was an inappropriate label for someone who was just being a complete jerk, a**, bas***d, etc. Elitist requires the person to have a known high skill level. When you don't know how good they were and you call him an elitist you are actively applying the word to someone who hasn't earned the right to even be labeled elitist. It's at that point elitist is being used solely as a pejorative and not as an accurate descriptor of the person being discussed.

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Originally Posted by Coris

snip

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i am sorry,but from what you said you aren't exactly in the clear,just because your group didn't fill up does not justify you going in DF fully knowing that this is the type of community that expects you to atleast have a general idea of what you'll be doing via a guide,and you still went in DF fully knowing what the mechanics in this game are like(many of them will wipe a person that doesn't know what they do many,many times,infact some of them take the best teams in the game weeks to understand completely and that's why they make guides)you have to consider that odds are,you will be a liability for your group 9/10 times because your mindset is not very widespread.no,your group not filling up does not make it right that you wasted people's time like that,and no,just because you have a way of learning that's different from most people is not a bad thing,you just shouldn't push that on people that 9 out of 10 will expect anyone that goes to coil to atleast understand the mechanics from a guide

Well I'm calling it already in regards to Alexander in 3.0.

According to information being given out, Alexander normal will still be too difficult for some players. There will be posts on the forums complaing about its difficulty. Some players cannot handle turn 5 even now. So, ima gine them in Alexander normal. Yep, nerf alexander posts incoming. Just look back at the "steps is too difficult, NERF NAO" post if you don't believe me.

Alexander savage, same again, there will be posts on the forums demanding it gets nerfed as entitlement will kick in to want the gear from it without the effort. I won't be surprised if some of those are from some who said they wanted Coil nerfed "for the story and not the loot".

There's really no way to do a fight blind via DF. If you don't watch a guide and you're wiping 7 other people, they're going to explain what you're supposed to do. You're just trading watching a guide for getting an explanation. There are some important differences though. A guide is visual and a guide is on your own time. But whatever way you choose, you're not really figuring it out on your own. You really do need PF groups for that. Purists who want to learn things themselves and be "untainted" by guide hand-holding are a real minority in this game. The chances of randomly queuing up with 7 other people who will let you solve the puzzle of each mechanic without giving you any advice are slim to none.

This is not an ideological argument. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, you should use PF if this is your goal.

@Davester:
What other options did/do I have then? I went with one friend - more were either busy or offline. I had a PF up before too and what I think of guides is what I've said above.
I think DF is meant to be used to go in a fight if you can't get a (full) group beforehand. I want to learn that fight but with people leaving fast or not joining at all that's not an easy thing to do.

I like that "wasting other people's time" thing. Imho there are people out there who would consider playing games/MMOs as a waste of time...

By the way, I also think it is a matter of wording too. I accept it when others don't want to play with first timers through DF, but getting nasty about it? Please no.