Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)

Venat had knowledge of an impending apocalypse that was set to kill a significant number of people and instead of speaking up in order to prevent it, she chose to remain silent. She was never operating in good faith. She even declares, quite openly, towards the end of Elpis that she was not going to simply go and speak to the Convocation in order to help prevent the Final Days.

Conveniently leaving out key facts, refusing to elaborate on the nature of the threat and various other factors further erode away the need for the Convocation to take her seriously.

To say nothing of the fact that if she revealed that knew of the Final Days in advance, she probably would have had some desperate mother who had lost her husband and children to a Terminus beast shove her to ground and crack open Venat's skull like a duck egg.

That's certainly a take on 'Flow' that I would have liked to have seen!

At any rate, deranged nutters that active allow disaster to strike their own society do not have much in the way of validity if they try to backtrack and demand to be listened to...after not simply being open and honest at the very start. (To say nothing of the fact that even her 'pleas' to the Convocation were based on falsehoods and beliefs that had no confirmed basis in reality.)

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

My bad for replying to stuff in two different posts, but I don't think this follows. Not being immortal doesn't somehow make you immune to inevitably coming to an end, if just means it'll happen well before the fate that terrified the Ea came about. Escaping the consequences of immortality isn't escaping the consequences of being alive at all.

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Sure I totally agree, but the point is that true immortality leads to Dead Ends as a certainty. Mortality does not necessarily lead to a Dead End, but opens the door for more kinds of Dead Ends. Thus the only way to avoid a Dead End is to be mortal.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

Mortal civilisation will die just as certainly as (some of) the Ea or the plenty did, there's just a much wider variety of things that could do it. Even if you were super lenient and did allow a society to continue existing for as long as the Ea, how are they supposed to get around the heat death of the universe? The plenty had issues others could dodge, the Ea did not.

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My interpretation of the moral of Endwalker is not “we have to make sure life goes on otherwise it’s pointless,” it’s “we should fight for every day we can, even if suffering and death is unavoidable.” If all will die to Heat Death then thats that, but it’s still good to fight for an extra day of living.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Do you truly think out of an entire civilization of ancient people who thrived on research only one would be capable of understanding dynamis? They had at the very least, after zodiark, 12k years. Even before that though Venat at least knows a bit about Dynamis, if she tells everyone that it’s the key, i don’t see why they couldn’t research it together. This whole thing of Hermes was the only one only works if you headcanon the ancients as stupid, which is the opposite of what we’re shown in Elpis.

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And they would discover they can’t manipulate Dynamis and would either have to sunder themselves or create a being that could manipulate Dynamis and give it whatever it would need to defeat Meteion. That would mean control of Etheirys and the end of their “stewardship” as well as not sacrificing a bunch of them to get their family back.

It's amusing to me that for all the talk of 'hubris' where immortal beings are concerned the same lazy caricatures are brought out to try and justify the removal of an innate trait associated with non-human entities. How interesting that, quite often, this is ordinarily considered to be a red line that should never be crossed - though only, mysteriously, in certain scenarios.

Personally, as a gay guy, I certainly wouldn't approve of someone deciding to 'fix' me by adjusting my sexuality. Equally, if I were immortal I imagine I would be equally opposed to someone who lives comparatively as long as an insect deciding that they needed to 'fix' me by removing my immortality.

It's actually pretty unsettling to think about.

Thankfully we already know from the Omega side quests that the immortality of the Ancients was never an actual factor of note in terms of overcoming despair. We saw Ancients do as much and create a solution - Venat simply didn't like it and wanted to masquerade as a 'supreme deity' to the Sundered.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Yoshi P/Ishikawa already confirmed that all parts of Zodiark on the shards disappeared when the main body on the source was destroyed.

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I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense given how sundering works everywhere else, but I at least appreciate that particular plot thread did get addressed. Weird it had to be done out of game considering, but still. Cheers for info

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Sure I totally agree, but the point is that true immortality leads to Dead Ends as a certainty. Mortality does not necessarily lead to a Dead End, but opens the door for more kinds of Dead Ends. Thus the only way to avoid a Dead End is to be mortal.

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Right, but the specific fates in the dead ends aren't the only things that can end a civilization. Mortality makes the whole cosmic inevitability stuff fairly irrelevant, and makes it harder to end up how the plenty did (not impossible), but it doesn't change that every species or civilisation does come to a point where it just cannot exist any longer. Fighting for a continued existence and a reason to continue existing is all well and good, but that fight always ends somewhere. The Ea are just an extreme example of what happens when you're too successful at fighting to live on and chase your goals, as are the omicron in a radically different manner.

Endwalkers themes work mostly fine when you apply them to us as individual people, but they struggle somewhat in much longer timescales or in some of the more unavoidable fates. I don't think it explains well why the attitudes of the scions and mortals as a whole are much better than some of those civilisations, or the ones in the report. Yshtolas counter was particularly awful, to repeat myself.

Oh, apologies for editing in a reply to this too, not used traditional forums for an actual discussion in forever lol

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Sure I totally agree, but the point is that true immortality leads to Dead Ends as a certainty. Mortality does not necessarily lead to a Dead End, but opens the door for more kinds of Dead Ends. Thus the only way to avoid a Dead End is to be mortal.

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Uh, no. The Plenty didn't seem to have a death system like the Ancients did. On the plenty, you lived forever whether they wanted to or not. They literally had to invent a way to die en mass. The Ancients had a system set up where once you were done with living, you could choose to die whenever you wanted. This meant that if you didn't want to live, you had control over that. And the system worked. When the former Fandaniel finished his work, he returned to the star. When Venat quit, she choose not to, but if she ever changed her mind, the option is there. Because death is a choice on our star, there wouldn't ever be a full generation to completely self-delete all at once. Not to mention, the only reason that the people of the Plenty all wanted to die at once is because they got hit with a wave of negative Dynamis from Meteion, and they didn't have the thick aether the Ancients did. When Meteion attacked the Ancients with the same method, they didn't want to die.

The idea that the Plenty and the Ancients are the same is stupid. The writers claim that's where the Ancients would have ended, but the story screams the exact opposite. You can say that your story says whatever you like, doesn't mean it actually does.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And they would discover they can’t manipulate Dynamis and would either have to sunder themselves or create a being that could manipulate Dynamis and give it whatever it would need to defeat Meteion. That would mean control of Etheirys and the end of their “stewardship” as well as not sacrificing a bunch of them to get their family back.

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And this isn't a valid strategy because? Even if the Ancients couldn't practice to control Dynamis inside areas like Ktisis that suppresses aether, why can't they just make a Meteion with a very strong sense of hope and positive dynamis? And how would this hand over 'stewardship' of the star? That makes literally zero sense! If the ancients send their new Meteion after the original, how are they handing stewardship to this new Meteion. They are trusting that their creation will defeat the enemy, but they aren't handing control over to anything. They could also encode a kill switch into their new Meteion and keep a copy back on the star. If their new Meteion goes rogue, kill it. Not to mention, once the OG Meteion is gone, they can have Zodiark return the souls to them. The souls are clearly intact as we see on the moon. They don't need Zodiark to protect them anymore, so Zodiark dying shouldn't be a concern.

Would you like to explain any of your logic here? It sounds like you're combining your personal headcanons with fanfictions you wrote/read and thinking that's official lore.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's amusing to me that for all the talk of 'hubris' where immortal beings are concerned the same lazy caricatures are brought out to try and justify the removal of an innate trait associated with non-human entities. How interesting that, quite often, this is ordinarily considered to be a red line that should never be crossed - though only, mysteriously, in certain scenarios.

Personally, as a gay guy, I certainly wouldn't approve of someone deciding to 'fix' me by adjusting my sexuality. Equally, if I were immortal I imagine I would be equally opposed to someone who lives comparatively as long as an insect deciding that they needed to 'fix' me by removing my immortality.

It's actually pretty unsettling to think about.

Thankfully we already know from the Omega side quests that the immortality of the Ancients was never an actual factor of note in terms of overcoming despair. We saw Ancients do as much and create a solution - Venat simply didn't like it and wanted to masquerade as a 'supreme deity' to the Sundered.

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Hiding behind a net of aether while the main issue speeds up the heat death of the universe(granted they didn't know that at the time) isn't really a solution. They just treated the symptom and were content to leave it at that. We also know in their current form they couldn't do anything about the disease itself.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Hiding behind a net of aether while the main issue speeds up the heat death of the universe(granted they didn't know that at the time) isn't really a solution.

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Alright Oatmeal, why don't you tell us what better solution they could have had, assuming Venat still didn't tell them crap. They took the best solution they had given the information they were provided.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

They just treated the symptom and were content to leave it at that.

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Their theory was that the final days was a natural disaster caused by the decay of celestial currents. Zodiark fixed that problem. As far as they knew THEY FIXED THE PROBLEM. How are they supposed to know there's some bird out there causing all of this if Venat is dead set on keeping her pie hole shut?

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

We also know in their current form they couldn't do anything about the disease itself.

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How did Hermes make Meteion? Make dynamis constructs with hope as a driving emotion to go fight her. There was a lot of things they could have done if Venat spilled the beans.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Hiding behind a net of aether while the main issue speeds up the heat death of the universe(granted they didn't know that at the time) isn't really a solution. They just treated the symptom and were content to leave it at that. We also know in their current form they couldn't do anything about the disease itself.

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If only someone had told them what caused the disease. I'll ponder it over another bowl of oatmeal.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Alright Oatmeal, why don't you tell us what better solution they could have had, assuming Venat still didn't tell them crap. They took the best solution they had given the information they were provided.



Their theory was that the final days was a natural disaster caused by the decay of celestial currents. Zodiark fixed that problem. As far as they knew THEY FIXED THE PROBLEM. How are they supposed to know there's some bird out there causing all of this if Venat is dead set on keeping her pie hole shut?



How did Hermes make Meteion? Make dynamis constructs with hope as a driving emotion to go fight her. There was a lot of things they could have done if Venat spilled the beans.

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First they have to be able to reach her. They can't at the moment. They did what they could at the time.

There was a whole group of people telling them that it isn't over that we have only delayed our doom. They weren't hearing it and were too busy trying to go back to what they had before the thing they thought was just a natural disaster took place. You'd have a point if we didn't have an entire faction of people saying "Hold up we gotta change, it's not over yet!"

Question of the age. Only he knows and he didn't submit a concept so no one else knows how to make her. In his current state he believes her a failure who imploded. Clue him in to what he did and he's probably not going to help you, most likely the opposite of help. The only other concept that uses Dyanmis is a flower created by some guy who may or may not have returned to the star already and it was by accident. Good luck with making a creation, even if you succeed you have no way of knowing if the thing you make will not turn into a monster. Remember how we all just read about how we can't really objectively measure the factor about who changes into a monster and who doesn't. What if your chosen sundered few travel all that way(they don't have the tech to do that but lets pretend they do) Chances are good they end up monsters and you won't get a second chance.

It was a crap situation all around, a lot of you acting like there was much that could have been done aren't looking at the situation as they knew it then. Knowing what she did and what the majority of her people were already doing she took it into her own hands and gamble. The world is alive(at great cost) and the disease cured.

But yea, according to you if she just told them all those other factors just don't exist anymore right? If only they gave her and her group the time of day when they were saying slow your roll. I'm sure things would have worked out lovely.

Also are you just stalking the thread whenever I post? That was real quick. Aww you do care <3

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

They did what they could at the time.

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Yay! You figured it out! :)

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

There was a whole group of people telling them that it isn't over that we have only delayed our doom.

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There was zero evidence that Zodiark wasn't permanent. Had he not been killed him, he probably would have lasted forever. Not to mention, Venat's group didn't have the proper information either as she didn't tell them anything important. Is the convocation supposed to believe any random group of people that opposes their decisions, especially when the people in question don't know crap either? Venat didn't tell her group nor the convocation about Meteion. Maybe if she did, her group would sound less like a group of raving lunatics.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Only he knows and he didn't submit a concept so no one else knows how to make her. Clue him in to what he did and he's probably not going to help you

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Then work on making a different one. The Ancients would have a MINIMUM of 12k years to perfect their new model. You can't seriously think they're so stupid that they can't accomplish that as a major project over the course of 12k years. This is the same civilization that created Zodiark. As for Hermes, there are few people researching it, not one. Lock him up or kill him. He's an active threat to the star.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Good luck with making a creation, even if you succeed you have no way of knowing if the thing you make will not turn into a monster.

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Need creates innovation. The Ancients are used to doing everything with aether, but if they are informed that they need to use dynamis, they'll innovate. If it turns into a monster, that's what kill switches and experiments are for.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Remember how we all just read about how we can't really objectively measure the factor about who changes into a monster and who doesn't. Chances are good they end up monsters and you won't get a second chance.

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Who said the ancients would only get one chance? The only reason we only had one was because Zodiark died. We were on a ticking clock to solve the problem. Again, the ancients have at LEAST 12k years.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

It was a crap situation all around, a lot of you acting like there was much that could have been done aren't looking at the situation as they knew it then.

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The only piece of evidence that says they couldn't is a line from Emet saying they can't. The rest of the story seems to say otherwise.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

But yea, according to you if she just told them all those other factors just don't exist anymore right? Also are you just stalking the thread whenever I post? That was real quick.

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Venat didn't give tell them about Meteion. And no, checking in on the thread isn't stalking, and I'm also replying to multiple people here. Calm down your ego Oatmeal.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

Yay! You figured it out! :)



There was zero evidence that Zodiark wasn't permanent. Had he not been killed him, he probably would have lasted forever. Not to mention, Venat's group didn't have the proper information either as she didn't tell them anything important. Is the convocation supposed to believe any random group of people that opposes their decisions, especially when the people in question don't know crap either? Venat didn't tell her group nor the convocation about Meteion. Maybe if she did, her group would sound less like a group of raving lunatics.

Then work on making a different one. The Ancients would have a MINIMUM of 12k years to perfect their new model. You can't seriously think they're so stupid that they can't accomplish that as a major project over the course of 12k years. This is the same civilization that created Zodiark. As for Hermes, there are few people researching it, not one. Lock him up or kill him. He's an active threat to the star.
Need creates innovation. The Ancients are used to doing everything with aether, but if they are informed that they need to use dynamis, they'll innovate. If it turns into a monster, that's what kill switches and experiments are for.
Who said the ancients would only get one chance? The only reason we only had one was because Zodiark died. We were on a ticking clock to solve the problem. Again, the ancients have at LEAST 12k years.
The only piece of evidence that says they couldn't is a line from Emet saying they can't. The rest of the story seems to say otherwise.
Venat didn't give tell them about Meteion. And no, checking in on the thread isn't stalking, and I'm also replying to multiple people here. Calm down your ego Oatmeal.

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This wasn't in question. For whatever reason you thought I didn't think that. Maybe read what people say.

There is no evidence that it would have been able to withstand say, a more focused attack of Dyanmis. She is working with all of it in the universe after all. It's not like they gave them a chance to speak. All talks fell on death ears. Did they just kick the guy outta the room?

Perfect it how? They know nothing about Dyanmis and Omega, who is more advanced than them is stumped on it as well. What makes you think they can succeed? Dyanmis does not lend itself well to scientific study that's repeated over and over within the story. Also what Zodiark's barrier would do to hamper that study. Turn him on an off again for testing maybe? It's hard to study something you can't freely control.

Yes, they only get one chance. Metetion isn't on the planet, she's at the edge of the universe. It took 12k years worth of aether to have enough fuel to make it and it took half that time just to make the technology to do so. Before you say we can just send them using dyanims, there is only one living being that has made this type of journey, and these beings would no doubt have to go much longer as we don't know how far the dragon star was away from our planet. They'd have to make that voyage unbroken and then it's a toss up on if they turn into monsters or not. You're working with the 12k timetable but there's also no indication that Meteion couldn't just turn up the volume of her song and overwhelm Zodiark and it's the final days all over again. Though that wont make for a good narrative. They might not have had 12k years.

The story suggest otherwise, they were not willing to look at anything else nor listen to Venat's faction and they forced her hand.

Right, so you just make a post with your typical snark right after mine. Coincidence maybe but you do seem to hop right on it as soon as I post. Hell, two of you did. You also didn't reply to anybody else so one has to wonder.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Right, so you just make a post with your typical snark right after mine. Coincidence maybe but you do seem to hop right on it as soon as I post. Hell, two of you did. You also didn't reply to anybody else so one has to wonder.

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First of all, did you not see my post replying to Eara? It's not that far up the thread. It should even be on the same page as yours. Secondly, have you considered that maybe we just so happened to check the forums right after you posted? I mean, this time around I'm 50m late if I'm supposedly trying to stalk you or whatever. Oatmeal my guy, I honestly don't care about you enough to check for your posts specifically. I'm interested in the thread, not specifically you. As for my snark... well then, guilty as charged ;)

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

First of all, did you not see my post replying to Eara? It's not that far up the thread. It should even be on the same page as yours. Secondly, have you considered that maybe we just so happened to check the forums right after you posted? I mean, this time around I'm 50m late if I'm supposedly trying to stalk you or whatever. Oatmeal my guy, I honestly don't care about you enough to check for your posts specifically. I'm interested in the thread, not specifically you. As for my snark... well then, guilty as charged ;)

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Do you need a moment to look up the meaning of the word coincidence? Sounds like you're reading too much into it. You should stop. I said snark but as wrong as you've consistently been at it. Something something I wish I had the confidence of a mediocre...
You seem to take an interest in me I wasn't even replying to you and you swoop in outta nowhere whenever I have posted here in these past few days.

You also didn't address anything from the last post. Considering that is the topic we're discussing I find that strange. Nah, no interest at all from you, just couldn't be. :)

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Do you need a moment to look up the meaning of the word coincidence? Sounds like you're reading too much into it. You should stop. I said snark but as wrong as you've consistently been at it. Something something I wish I had the confidence of a mediocre...
You seem to take an interest in me I wasn't even replying to you and you swoop in outta nowhere whenever I have posted here in these past few days.

You also didn't address anything from the last post. Considering that is the topic we're discussing I find that strange. Nah, no interest at all from you, just couldn't be. :)

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Buddy, I'm sorry that I have to be the one who needs to tell you this, but... you're not someone special that I singled out. I saw a post (yours) that disagreed with mine, and I replied to it. As is my right to do. The only reason I'm continuing to reply to you in particular is that out of the people here I disagree with, you're the one responding.I'd rather respond to people who disagree with me as there is more opportunity for a discussion, and you're the one who happens to be responding. If Eara was responding as much as you are, I'd be speaking with them. I'm checking in on the thread every 15m or so hoping that someone else comes in that I can talk to, but it seems like it's literally just you responding every time. Isn't responding shortly after someone else stalking them? I thought I remember you saying that... So why are you still responding to my posts then? Are you stalking me? O_O

Also, I didn't respond to your points as they completely assume that Meteion has the ability to make her song stronger than it was, and I didn't feel like responding with 'nice headcanon'. But seeing as you want a response, nice headcanon. When I brought up my faith in Ancient's ability to succeed, at least that was based on what we've seen of them. There's no evidence that Meteion's song can be emitted at a higher strength. Also, Zodiark doesn't prevent Dynamis from existing on the planet, it prevents it from getting in. It's a shield, not a dynamis death zone. If it was, the Elpis flower we find in Labyrinthos wouldn't be functional. If the Ancients found someone as devoted to Dynamis as Hermes, which logically there would be one, they could make a new Meteion. Meteion didn't seem to require 12k years worth of aether to travel the stars did she? No she didn't, thus new Meteion could make the journey if designed to do so using Dynamis like Meteion 1.0 was.

You can respond to me if you want, but if you don't want me to reply in a timely manner, maybe don't. And btw, I wear 'snarky' as a badge of honor, so thank you very much ;)

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

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We've been through this, so there's no point in trying to go over it again with you. You take particular notice when I post you could have easily simply not said anything. I wasn't even talking to you at the time I suppose its your headcanon that you think I think I'm special Never had a fanfic made of me, kinda weird.

Ummm, ever single one of your what ifs has been headcanon. Nothing you suggested in your last few post is support by the actual game. Nice your faith is has such power it can change the lore!

They couldn't they didn't, they didn't even want to attempt.
Theres no evidence that it couldn't be enhanced, you're just going off the fact that she didn't(for narrative purposes most like).

If they found someone as Hermes put it dyanmis is an esoteric study and due to it's nature of not really being able to be studied properly its been pretty much dropped. You've no evidence within the game of anybody picking it up or showing any kind of interest. Again, you keep making up what ifs.

Again, they have no idea how she was made and you're still forgetting that Hermes is standing right there, he's not just gonna sit by and chances are they are gonna go to him for help in the first place to which sabotage abound. You also forgot to address the how they avoid being turned into monsters part. The whole "Make a new Meteion" thing is the most common thing people come up with and it's just not feasible.

Their inexperience with dyanmis, the fickle nature of it and the inability to test it, just means that plan if it came about was doomed to failure. Unless you can demonstrate with the lore presented their ability to have a greater control than Hermes did when he made Meteion, which isn't much he only made her with dyanims to aid in travel and to communicate with the life she would encounter. Then that entire headcanon of yours is dead in the water. We've been over not making stuff up.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

you could have easily simply not said anything.

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But I want to and I can. :p

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

I wasn't even talking to you at the time

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Just because you weren't talking to me doesn't mean I can't talk to you.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Nothing you suggested in your last few post is support by the actual game.

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Lots of stuff can't be proven by the game. That's why I use logic to fill the holes the game hasn't.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

they didn't even want to attempt.

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To not want to attempt something, you must first know what it is you're not attempting to do. The Ancients were not told about the space bird, and neither were Venat's followers.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Theres no evidence that it couldn't be enhanced

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There isn't evidence that she can, nor is there evidence that could be used to make an argument that she could.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

If they found someone as Hermes put it dyanmis is an esoteric study and due to it's nature of not really being able to be studied properly its been pretty much dropped. You've no evidence within the game of anybody picking it up or showing any kind of interest.

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The Ancients were not given the information that Dynamis was important. Hermes in Elpis states that Dynamis is not studied because why use Dynamis when you can use Aether instead? If Hermes was able to make a Meteion as a pet project when there was no need to study it, it would make logical sense that if there was a sufficient desire to do so, it would be very possible.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

you're still forgetting that Hermes is standing right there

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Kill him or lock him up and throw away the key. Hermes himself mentions he's not the only Dynamis scientist out there.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

You also forgot to address the how they avoid being turned into monsters part.

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Design it with a driving emotion of hope. And if it gets turned on the first few attempts design it with a kill switch.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Their inexperience with dyanmis, the fickle nature of it and the inability to test it, just means that plan if it came about was doomed

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If it's impossible then how did Hermes make a functioning Meteion. Keep in mind that the convocation has at least TWELVE THOUSAND YEARS. That's plenty of time to get VERY familiar with something.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Unless you can demonstrate with the lore presented their ability to have a greater control than Hermes did when he made Meteion

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Prove they can't with 12k years or more to experiment. You can't because the game doesn't specifically say that or anything like that. With that in mind, I refer to what logically makes sense.

But oh boy! I'm responding again! I'm such a stalker! Excuse me while my eyes roll out of my sockets. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Yes, they only get one chance. Metetion isn't on the planet, she's at the edge of the universe. It took 12k years worth of aether to have enough fuel to make it and it took half that time just to make the technology to do so. Before you say we can just send them using dyanims, there is only one living being that has made this type of journey, and these beings would no doubt have to go much longer as we don't know how far the dragon star was away from our planet. They'd have to make that voyage unbroken and then it's a toss up on if they turn into monsters or not. You're working with the 12k timetable but there's also no indication that Meteion couldn't just turn up the volume of her song and overwhelm Zodiark and it's the final days all over again. Though that wont make for a good narrative. They might not have had 12k years.

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I don't think there's much reason to think the mothercrystal was the only way to fuel space based travel, especially when the topic was a creation designed to counter her, but regardless there's zero reason to believe meteion could just try a bit harder and shatter the barrier. They never show the ability to do anything like that, and there's no reason why they wouldn't have done so already if it was possible.

Obviously it's not a guarantee other methods of combating meteion would succeed, but it wasn't a guarantee we would either. I don't think you explain well why they only get one chance either, like they make a plan, it doesn't work, and then they all just die? Zodiark wasn't struggling after all that time, I don't get why it would just randomly stop working?

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I apologize but I don’t quite understand this argument. Yes your civilization will end regardless. But that certainty doesn’t change the fact that you should extend that existence for as long as you can. That it’s a good thing to live, even with suffering. The point is that a being that can accept suffering and retain the desire to live will continue to for longer than one that did not. Whether the ultimate end is inevitable is inconsequential to the question of “should we change in order to survive and flourish?”

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But it's not inconsequential, because we are given the Ea as an example of a "failed" civilisation. They fought to thrive as a civilisation and had a strong drive to continue existing, but despite doing everything right here, they still ran into a fate they could do nothing about. If they stay mortal they're leaving themselves susceptible to a heap of different ends, but if they become immortal they are still unable to escape the eventual fate of the universe.

The issue with the themes here is that the Ea are an absolute best case scenario, with the only real options being to either choose death, or live to drift aimlessly forever in an endless void. The only difference between them and the sundered is that the latter are much, much worse at solving their problems.

It doesn't work very well thematically when the inevitable outcome of successfully chasing that desire to live longer is held up as a failure.

The choice part was interesting, I even thought about it from what I could remember of the MSQ.

Everyone justified option, I disagree cause u gotta pick a side and people who try to please everyone never succeed.

Everyone was wrong option, this one had me thinking and I almost picked it, but doing something is better then doing nothing at all.

The Asians option, as cool as they are as bad guys, I disagree with em totally trying to murder us and cause world wide destruction through the centuries, so yea put these guys necks to the sword for betterment of the star.

Venat option, she kinda screwed over her people but she helped our people and she pretty much tried to make the best of a bad situation and did what she thought was the best choice, her heart was right, so I chose venat.

Can't remember if there were any other options but those are my opinions.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

But it's not inconsequential, because we are given the Ea as an example of a "failed" civilisation. They fought to thrive as a civilisation and had a strong drive to continue existing, but despite doing everything right here, they still ran into a fate they could do nothing about. If they stay mortal they're leaving themselves susceptible to a heap of different ends, but if they become immortal they are still unable to escape the eventual fate of the universe.

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The issue with the Ea is not actually about the heat death of the universe, it’s about how their discovery made them feel as if life was pointless. They gave up, long before the heat death would occur, believing that it meant nothing if it isn’t indefinite. That’s the issue.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

The issue with the themes here is that the Ea are an absolute best case scenario, with the only real options being to either choose death, or live to drift aimlessly forever in an endless void. The only difference between them and the sundered is that the latter are much, much worse at solving their problems.

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Hard disagree. The Sundered may have to face more struggle, but they in turn have happier, more fulfilling lives. The Ea either kill themselves or become moral with new flesh bodies and then kill themselves. Their lives in their eyes are not worth living, meanwhile the Sundered still find joy and meaning in their existence. There’s a clear benefit.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

It doesn't work very well thematically when the inevitable outcome of successfully chasing that desire to live longer is held up as a failure.

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Welcome to our own existence is all I can say. Atm we have the exact same circumstance bearing down on us.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

If it's impossible then how did Hermes make a functioning Meteion. Keep in mind that the convocation has at least TWELVE THOUSAND YEARS. That's plenty of time to get VERY familiar with something.

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Also he literally choose to do a "blank" child and not teach her anything or let her grow up and find strength, or personality... He basically sent a infant to the horrors of the universe lol

He didnt even bother to sent em in couples or anything... heck for all we know they might have been hijacked by some stronger, negative Dynamis creature, weak as they were...


Id say he lost control bc he made them bland and weak, so they would not mess with the results... basically sending out blank canvases so that others might paint on em.



Given just SOME time and effort you surely couldve made an familiar to counter it, or find other means... or just train it with Azem xD

This thread should really be merged with the 'Lackluster Endwalker' thread, since it has very little to do with the 6.15 Omega Quests specifically at this point.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

I don't think there's much reason to think the mothercrystal was the only way to fuel space based travel, especially when the topic was a creation designed to counter her, but regardless there's zero reason to believe meteion could just try a bit harder and shatter the barrier. They never show the ability to do anything like that, and there's no reason why they wouldn't have done so already if it was possible.

Obviously it's not a guarantee other methods of combating meteion would succeed, but it wasn't a guarantee we would either. I don't think you explain well why they only get one chance either, like they make a plan, it doesn't work, and then they all just die? Zodiark wasn't struggling after all that time, I don't get why it would just randomly stop working?



But it's not inconsequential, because we are given the Ea as an example of a "failed" civilisation. They fought to thrive as a civilisation and had a strong drive to continue existing, but despite doing everything right here, they still ran into a fate they could do nothing about. If they stay mortal they're leaving themselves susceptible to a heap of different ends, but if they become immortal they are still unable to escape the eventual fate of the universe.

The issue with the themes here is that the Ea are an absolute best case scenario, with the only real options being to either choose death, or live to drift aimlessly forever in an endless void. The only difference between them and the sundered is that the latter are much, much worse at solving their problems.

It doesn't work very well thematically when the inevitable outcome of successfully chasing that desire to live longer is held up as a failure.

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This. I mean, have we forgotten the very moment in the MSQ where Fandaniel finishes off Zodiark of her saying "At last!", which is a pretty dang good indicator of her not being able to strengthen the song to simply overcome the barrier. It had to be let down in order for her to shove it through.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

The issue with the Ea is not actually about the heat death of the universe, it’s about how their discovery made them feel as if life was pointless. They gave up, long before the heat death would occur, believing that it meant nothing if it isn’t indefinite. That’s the issue.

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Yes, but this is specifically because of the heat death of the universe. It is an inevitable end to everything they care about, that would leave them drifting eternally due to their effectively immortal nature. They gave up because they realised their ultimate fate is either suicide or something much worse, with this understanding coming as a result of the fight that gave them purpose. No other encountered race in the setting has faced anything near that, and the only way to avoid it is to die before it's relevant.

The quest where you read epitaphs from some of them highlights this pretty well I think, there's one that talks about how they fought to leave their planet, how they fought to travel between dimensions, and how they fought for nothing. These are people that will live so incredibly long that the current age of the universe would be a tiny blip to them, they will live to see everything they have ever loved or cared for die, and they have absolutely no way to avert this fate. They give up when encountered with the incontrovertible fact that there is no actual hope for them to change this, no matter how hard they tried.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Hard disagree. The Sundered may have to face more struggle, but they in turn have happier, more fulfilling lives. The Ea either kill themselves or become moral with new flesh bodies and then kill themselves. Their lives in their eyes are not worth living, meanwhile the Sundered still find joy and meaning in their existence. There’s a clear benefit.

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I'm not aware we're given any information that suggests the Ea were somehow unhappy before they reached this state? The fact that the sundered are not as competent at achieving their goals as the Ea were is why they don't struggle with this same issue, they simply have not advanced to a stage where it's even worth thinking about. The responses we do see from them regarding the topic suggest they're just entirely unequipped to even try tacking the problem at all, outside just refusing to acknowledge it.

I don't think the setting as provided allows for a happy ending in the extremely long term, outside maybe some exceptionally low maintenance immortals just living in giant time travel loops, I guess. Or as some weird suffering obsessed culture that refuses to fix many problems and views their inevitable death as a good thing, maybe, but that's just cenobites crossed with the ancients.

Meteion was wrong because she was (they were?) attempting to take away any autonomy from people or civilisations regarding how they would meet their end, but they were correct about the fate of all life. I don't believe denial of that is a virtue, and I do hope that if there's more quests like these omega ones they might touch more on the Ea, as they're fairly unique in this context.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Welcome to our own existence is all I can say. Atm we have the exact same circumstance bearing down on us.

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Personally I imagine I'll die somewhere in my early 80s, or maybe my 90s if I'm unlucky enough, but if you're planning on living past 10,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000 years old I can understand why you might have a different take to me on this stuff.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

There is no evidence that it would have been able to withstand say, a more focused attack of Dyanmis. She is working with all of it in the universe after all. It's not like they gave them a chance to speak. All talks fell on death ears. Did they just kick the guy outta the room?

Perfect it how? They know nothing about Dyanmis and Omega, who is more advanced than them is stumped on it as well. What makes you think they can succeed? Dyanmis does not lend itself well to scientific study that's repeated over and over within the story. Also what Zodiark's barrier would do to hamper that study. Turn him on an off again for testing maybe? It's hard to study something you can't freely control.

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Meteion was hell bent on destroying Etheirys. See what happened when we killed Zodiark, she was "YAS FINALLY MY TIME TO SHINE". She has been sending waves of despair toward Etheirys, not Dynamis directly. As I understand it, Dynamis is all around (even inside Zodiark's dome, or Elpis flowers wouldn't change colors). What happens is that she sends despair waves through the existing Dyanmis medium, but she doesn't straight up send dynamis itself to us. It's affected by emotions and thoughts, but in the end, it's just waves of despair through a medium, that used to crash against the rocks that were Zodiark's shield.


Most of our knowledge about Dynamis comes from the Ancients, though. Hermes specifically. While we can't rely on him to fill the blanks, others do study the subject, however considering how aether-rich Etheirys is, it's considered to be of little worth.
Let's see what Hermes say about it:

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Originally Posted by Hermes

And though its existence has long been theorized, we had no proof until the flower’s serendipitous creation. What’s more, dynamis is far weaker than aether. Under normal circumstances, its effects are drowned out by the latter. On account of which, beings comprised of and reliant upon aether, like you and I, are unable to make practical use of dynamis. ‘Tis a truly esoteric thing, known to but a select few scholars.

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Hermes himself, our resident expert on the subject, recognize other scholars know about it.

Have other Entelechies ever created beside Meteion? It seems so.

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Meteion: That's me, that's me! An entelechy!
Hermes: That you are, my dear. And no ordinary one at that, but the first possessed of free will.

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So even if Hermes was the only one who ever created actual entelechy by purpose (we don't know), it shows it can be done, even without free will, even perhaps to be used as tools against Meteion.

It shows it was a subject that wasn't researched by many, but even then, we have proof actual success in the field can happen: Meteion, a free-willed being able to use Dynamis for communication, and so much more even if that was by mistake. Tell me, if Meteion was infused by the despair of people who meant to die, how do you think and Entelechy fueled by the desire of every Ancients to suvive and go back to the way things were would turn out? An incarnation of hope and salvation? The perfect being to counteract the waves of Despair Meteion nurtured over the years in her nest.
Comparing Omega, a being that itself recognize they shouldn't even bother with Dynamis because as machine they should have no emotions, to Ancients who showed repeatedely that they had emotions and a strong will for salvation is... disputable at best.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Yes, they only get one chance. Metetion isn't on the planet, she's at the edge of the universe. It took 12k years worth of aether to have enough fuel to make it and it took half that time just to make the technology to do so. Before you say we can just send them using dyanims, there is only one living being that has made this type of journey, and these beings would no doubt have to go much longer as we don't know how far the dragon star was away from our planet. They'd have to make that voyage unbroken and then it's a toss up on if they turn into monsters or not. You're working with the 12k timetable but there's also no indication that Meteion couldn't just turn up the volume of her song and overwhelm Zodiark and it's the final days all over again. Though that wont make for a good narrative. They might not have had 12k years.

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The Mothercrystal started forming once she turned into Hydaelyn.

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Originally Posted by Hydaelyn

Ever since I became the will of the Star, the aether drawn here hath slowly crystallized.

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Besides the irony of using part of the world's aether to save our lives, which apparently is bad when it's to rescue the souls of those used to summon Zodiark... That's totally something they could have done. Arguably even more efficiently on an unsundered world.
The crystal form may be facilitiated because Hydaelyn is strongly Light/stasis aspected, but Ancients showed they knew these properties as they summoned Zodiark as a being of Dark because its goal was to quicken aether around the world.

So what if it takes 12k years for the Ancients to actually reach Meteion?
When we got there, we could also have turned into monsters or got simply erased, as Meteion tried to do. But beings of greater aetheric density would be much more protected to that side effect, and if they had Entelechies creations along, could fight Meteion for control of that Dynamis. It's not like Venat knew we would succeed, she hoped to make us better at defeating Meteion by following this course of action by making us more susceptible to manipulating Dynamis and knowing hardship so we wouldn't succomb to despair.

And you know, that would be a good justification to why she sundered us, making us more resilient to despair. But it's not like the sundered are immune, as seen by all the creatures flying around in Thavnair, or the Blasphemies all around the world. Some Ancients didn't succomb to it either, since they actually summon Guardian forces without problem, or Zodiark. Not every Ancients' creation magicks went awry, showing some resilience to her. What then, did sundering us prepared us for?

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The story suggest otherwise, they were not willing to look at anything else nor listen to Venat's faction and they forced her hand.

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She says she means to follow the plan, and not trust the convocation or anybody. This is what we don't agree on. Let's quote her dialog after Ktisis, before we go back to our time :

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Originally Posted by Venat

In spite of this, we cannot let the report that set this calamity in motion become common knowledge. Where the masses to learn the fates of the other stars, I fear the situation would spiral out of our control.
I must carefully consider who can be trusted, and bring them into the fold.
Ordinarily, I wouldn't hesitate to call upon the Fourteen. However, it was the desire for a fair determination that drove Hermes to attempt to erase our memories; were he made aware of his actions, there is no telling whether he would remain a friend or become a foe. Alternately, we might try to alienate him from the Convocation. Yet in doing so, we would deprive ourselves of a brilliant mind who would be invaluable in the crises to come. Quite the dilemma... which is why I must work independently of the Convocation. Regardless of how we proceed, if we are to permanently avert the Final Days, we must be equal to Hermes' challenge. We must prove that mankind is worthy to exist.

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So no, she didn't even try to work with the Convocation because she didn't believe her own race to be up to the challenge. She didn't give them a chance, and plotted with her few trusted people instead.
What you accuse the convocation and the overall Ancient society of doing, is actually Venat's sin: she refused to consider another course of action but her own.

It's worth remembering that in 'Follow, Wander, Stumble, Listen,' Emet is completely unable to even see Meteion when she decides to use dynamis to hide herself. The same is not true for Azem. Emet is entirely dependent on Azem to track her down so that they can douse the region with aether to make her visible again.

Now think about him fighting a god made of pure dynamis in a part of the universe where she has the home court advantage. You need to be able to manipulate dynamis to even breathe out there. No shot.

As for entelechies? An entelechy (telos = end) merely makes ambient emotion manifest as dynamis. It's the same reason why Meteion enjoys candied apples despite never eating one. The Endsinger experiences the ambient emotions of others as if they were her own, and turns that into something tangible. That's why she speaks for those civilizations who have previously died, just before the final fight in Ultima Thule. In order to challenge her and transform her realm, the Scions have to bring the power of their own inner feelings to bear against the ambient emotion of the place. To override despair with hope, and fear with joy.

This isn't an issue of pride. Meteion was the perfect weapon against the Amaurotians. This is a boss fight that they were designed to lose.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's worth remembering that in 'Follow, Wander, Stumble, Listen,' Emet is completely unable to even see Meteion when she decides to use dynamis to hide herself. The same is not true for Azem. Emet is entirely dependent on Azem to track her down so that they can douse the region with aether to make her visible again.

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Why are you referring to our character as Azem? We aren't, and Azem is a separate distinct character, so using one's name for the other just makes statements confusing.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

An entelechy (telos = end)

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I don't know the full translation for the word, but that doesn't sound right. What does an "end" have to do with what a psychic empath does?

At a guess I would assume it comes from the "tele" prefix in "telepathy" or other words relating to communicating over distance like telephone, television, etc.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Now think about him fighting a god made of pure dynamis in a part of the universe where she has the home court advantage. You need to be able to manipulate dynamis to even breathe out there. No shot

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Considering that the only reason you can breathe there is Thancred's aether, and aether was used to unveil Meteion, and aether was used to stop Meteion's attack for 12,000 years, I think you may just be a little uncreative.

I mean we shot a pathway of aether across the universe just to go there. Why not just shoot more aether at Meteion's location to trap her in a cage of aether she can't escape from, which prevents her from using the universe's dynamis?

Last I checked, Thancred was struggling to manipulate aether. Dynamis on the other hand...

Also worth remembering that in universe as a whole, there's significantly less aether than dynamis. We just happen to live in a place where there's a lot of the former.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

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We're effectively Azem, given that most Amaurotians that we run into seem to recognize us as such. It just serves as a universal noun for the player character, and WoL/WoD not only cumbersome but applies to other individuals as well.

Entelechy is a Greek term linked with Aristotle's philosophy. An entelechy is something that converts the potential to the actual (i.e. to bring it to completion). The word 'telos' (τέλος) means 'end' or 'completion', which you may recognize from the Endsinger's Aria in Telos/Telomania (a 'telomere' for example, refers to the end parts of linear chromosomes that get discarded on successive replication, and the telencephalon is the front end of the central nervous system.) In the case of Meteion and Elpis flowers, both of which are examples of entelechies, they make manifest the 'potentiality' of ambient emotion. I like etymology, it gives a lot of insight into language.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's worth remembering that in 'Follow, Wander, Stumble, Listen,' Emet is completely unable to even see Meteion when she decides to use dynamis to hide herself. The same is not true for Azem. Emet is entirely dependent on Azem to track her down so that they can douse the region with aether to make her visible again.

Now think about him fighting a god made of pure dynamis in a part of the universe where she has the home court advantage. You need to be able to manipulate dynamis to even breathe out there. No shot.

As for entelechies? An entelechy (telos = end) merely makes ambient emotion manifest as dynamis. It's the same reason why Meteion enjoys candied apples despite never eating one. The Endsinger experiences the ambient emotions of others as if they were her own, and turns that into something tangible. That's why she speaks for those civilizations who have previously died, just before the final fight in Ultima Thule. In order to challenge her and transform her realm, the Scions have to bring the power of their own inner feelings to bear against the ambient emotion of the place. To override despair with hope, and fear with joy.

This isn't an issue of pride. Meteion was the perfect weapon against the Amaurotians. This is a boss fight that they were designed to lose.

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You don't need to be able to use dynamis to even breathe. We can, because Thancred actually wished it through Dynamis. So you need someone able to use that dynamis to enable everybody else.

Entelechies as described actually don't manifest Dynamis, they are just receptive to Dynamis and are able to affect it in some ways. They don't create it, they interact. That's why Meteion rides on Dynamis, send despair through it, and why the Elpis flowers change colours based on the surrounding dynamis state. It actually matches the real meaning of the world quite well.

Sundered beings are just Ancients with lower aetheric density, that don't cancel out Dynamis as much. Amaurotians alone couldn't fight it alone, but since Venat literally knows that, who could, what exact density (8 times rejoined seems to be a nice mix between dynamis and aether), she could tell literally everybody and either create beings able to fight her, like us, or have some ancients willingly go through sundering instead of forcing the choice on everybody. As to who would choose that fate, over 75% of the planet sacrificed themselves willingly, there should be ample candidates.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

This thread should really be merged with the 'Lackluster Endwalker' thread, since it has very little to do with the 6.15 Omega Quests specifically at this point.

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The op is talking about the stance taking involved in the quest though, so it very much has quite a lot to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

We're effectively Azem, given that most Amaurotians that we run into seem to recognize us as such. It just serves as a universal noun for the player character, and WoL/WoD not only cumbersome but applies to other individuals as well.

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We are not Azem, especially not when Azem exists in the story as a distinct (if unseen) character who is talked about separately. We do not have their powers or their memories, or even their entire soul. Emet and Hyth are long-term friends with Azem but have only just met us.

Just because we look like Azem and remind people of Azem does not make us Azem. We are the inheritor of their legacy but a separate person.

It doesn't serve as a "universal noun for the player character" because it refers to someone else.

Hm, I'll have to leave that for Pandaemonium to decide. The player character, then.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

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I don't recall using the term 'create'. A world in which the 'heat death of the universe' exists is likely subject to the laws of thermodynamics, so I would expect that there's an overarching energy conservation law that prevents you from doing any sort of de novo energy production using dynamis. The word manifest here means to 'make palpable or perceivable'. To give form to the formless. Entelechies can utilize dynamis, but their actions are a function of the ambient emotion, not their own.

I've seen people mention this 'selective sundering' business before. It might be possible, but the original sundering itself didn't sound like it was something that could be controlled with all that much precision. And you're still essentially using Venat's solution at the end of the day, because it relies on putting together a team of sundered heroes to address the problem. The team of characters who defeat the Endsinger are a product of everything that has happened to date. It's a bit like saying 'Amaurot could win if they just had the Scions' and then flat out refuse to acknowledge all the circumstances that made them who they are.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Hm, I'll have to leave that for Pandaemonium to decide. The player character, then.

I don't recall using the term 'create'. A world in which the 'heat death of the universe' exists is likely subject to the laws of thermodynamics, so I would expect that there's an overarching energy conservation law that prevents you from doing any sort of de novo energy production using dynamis. The word manifest here means to 'make palpable or perceivable'. To give form to the formless. Entelechies can utilize dynamis, but their actions are a function of the ambient emotion, not their own.

I've seen people mention this 'selective sundering' business before. It might be possible, but the original sundering itself didn't sound like it was something that could be controlled with all that much precision. And you're still essentially using Venat's solution at the end of the day, because it relies on putting together a team of sundered heroes to address the problem. The team of characters who defeat the Endsinger are a product of everything that has happened to date. It's a bit like saying 'Amaurot could win if they just had the Scions' and then flat out refuse to acknowledge all the circumstances that made them who they are.

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Sorry if I thought you did, "manifest as dynamis" sounded a lot like you implied it to my non-native speaker ears!

I don't think the sundering would be a bad solution if Venat gave a choice to people. Not "bad" in the sense that it doesn't work, but because she literally killed her whole race but 3 people in all but names. Their souls are still recycled and other life grows from it, but her solution wasn't any better on a life-cost point of view than Hermes' or Emet-Selch.

That could be sundered heroes along entelechy creations and supported from afar by ancients, for all I know.

I'm not blaming the writers really, it only shows that Venat is very much an Ancient and takes the same kind of drastic measures, just like the others. Hers are based on her love of humanity, Emet on his love of the Ancient society, and Hermes on life itself.
I just don't think saying "there was NO way the Ancients could have done anything, even if they knew what was happening" rests on any solid ground.

I can see your reasoning.

I think it's difficult to judge the Amaurotians' decisions on the basis of our own societies value systems' because of how different it is. The idea of having a referendum over a controversial topic is probably a foreign concept when you're expected to conform and obediently follow the decisions of a group of respected elders. You can't really say that a decision is undemocratic when the system of governance isn't democratic to begin with. I certainly think that all of the Amaurotians in question are very decisive regardless of methodology, which is what you would expect of them given their backgrounds, and is an essential trait in a leader.

The entire question itself is fairly academic, but for myself, I would need more information to properly determine what the best course of action was. I think that some of the essential details are necessarily locked away behind the story of Pandaemonium and Myths, which is why I'll personally reserve my final viewpoint for then.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I can see your reasoning.

I think it's difficult to judge the Amaurotians' decisions on the basis of our own societies value systems' because of how different it is. The idea of having a referendum over a controversial topic is probably a foreign concept when you're expected to conform and obediently follow the decisions of a group of respected elders. You can't really say that a decision is undemocratic when the system of governance isn't democratic to begin with. I certainly think that all of the Amaurotians in question are very decisive regardless of methodology, which is what you would expect of them given their backgrounds, and is an essential trait in a leader.

The entire question itself is fairly academic, but for myself, I would need more information to properly determine what the best course of action was. I think that some of the essential details are necessarily locked away behind the story of Pandaemonium and Myths, which is why I'll personally reserve my final viewpoint for then.

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Uh, "Referendum over a controversial topic being a foreign concept"? Are we talking about the same society? Ya know, the one that considers debate to be an evening's light entertainment? I don't think we played the same game.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

I mean we shot a pathway of aether across the universe just to go there. Why not just shoot more aether at Meteion's location to trap her in a cage of aether she can't escape from, which prevents her from using the universe's dynamis?

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Literally as she was so nice to gather all of her on one place, it seems lol

The main problem also was that they did not know WHY their magic was running amok, if they knew what to fight against, they might have been able to create a personal version of Zodiark's shield for everyone...

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I can see your reasoning.

I think it's difficult to judge the Amaurotians' decisions on the basis of our own societies value systems' because of how different it is. The idea of having a referendum over a controversial topic is probably a foreign concept when you're expected to conform and obediently follow the decisions of a group of respected elders. You can't really say that a decision is undemocratic when the system of governance isn't democratic to begin with. I certainly think that all of the Amaurotians in question are very decisive regardless of methodology, which is what you would expect of them given their backgrounds, and is an essential trait in a leader.

The entire question itself is fairly academic, but for myself, I would need more information to properly determine what the best course of action was. I think that some of the essential details are necessarily locked away behind the story of Pandaemonium and Myths, which is why I'll personally reserve my final viewpoint for then.

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Something certain is they didn't value life as we do in our society. They see themselves as organism of the Star, whose goal was to work toward its perfection. They knew souls followed a cycle, and death wasn't especially tragic but something to be celebrated.
However, they do value peer-review (Elpis is pretty much that after all), and as caretakers of the Star, they probably don't act rashly on such a grand scale without some kind of approval. Pretty certain an Hydaelyn concept didn't go through the Bureau of the Architect :>

But I agree, a definitive answer will require this chapter to be closed.

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Originally Posted by redheadturk

Uh, "Referendum over a controversial topic being a foreign concept"? Are we talking about the same society? Ya know, the one that considers debate to be an evening's light entertainment? I don't think we played the same game.

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Debating and voting about issues are quite different though. Their society doesn't strike me as especially democratic, but more similar to the perfect city described by Aristotle, where everybody should take part in society but people recognized for their virtue raised to positions of office, or even the one from Plato's Republic, with a council instead of a philosopher king.
Convocation members are mostly designed but there's no formal vote, the Convocation decide between themselves how to lead the others, and in turn the people mostly agree because they trust those in charge to make the best judgement calls.

So yeah, referendums are probably unheard of. Both Hermes and Venat just thought they knew better than everyone else, just like everybody expect the Convocation to know better than the masses.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

However, they do value peer-review (Elpis is pretty much that after all), and as caretakers of the Star, they probably don't act rashly on such a grand scale without some kind of approval. Pretty certain an Hydaelyn concept didn't go through the Bureau of the Architect :>

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They also value transparency:

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Emet-Selch: It is held that all civil organizations should conduct their affairs with total transparency, and the Convocation is no exception.

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You can sort of see this with how the shades Hades put together were aware of the plan to summon Zodiark, and later on, in the way the debate on the sacrifices divided their broader society. Her own reasoning for not working with them is a deviation from her usual MO:

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Venat: Ordinarily, I wouldn't hesitate to call upon the Fourteen. However, it was the desire for a fair determination that drove Hermes to attempt to erase our memories; were he made aware of his actions, there is no telling whether he would remain a friend or become a foe.

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While she had her reasons, it is clear it is a departure from their usual style of governance, and so on this point:

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I don't think the sundering would be a bad solution if Venat gave a choice to people. Not "bad" in the sense that it doesn't work, but because she literally killed her whole race but 3 people in all but names. Their souls are still recycled and other life grows from it, but her solution wasn't any better on a life-cost point of view than Hermes' or Emet-Selch.

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I agree. Particularly since it seems other solutions could be conceived and they were not given a full/true account of the source of the crisis.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

Yes, but this is specifically because of the heat death of the universe. It is an inevitable end to everything they care about, that would leave them drifting eternally due to their effectively immortal nature. They gave up because they realised their ultimate fate is either suicide or something much worse, with this understanding coming as a result of the fight that gave them purpose. No other encountered race in the setting has faced anything near that, and the only way to avoid it is to die before it's relevant.

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So in your eyes the Ea made the right choice in self-terminating? Lets imagine the Ancients also discover the heat death of the universe, having already succeeded at "perfecting" Etheirys and completing their purpose. Would you say its only logical that they also self-terminate?

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

The quest where you read epitaphs from some of them highlights this pretty well I think, there's one that talks about how they fought to leave their planet, how they fought to travel between dimensions, and how they fought for nothing. These are people that will live so incredibly long that the current age of the universe would be a tiny blip to them, they will live to see everything they have ever loved or cared for die, and they have absolutely no way to avert this fate. They give up when encountered with the incontrovertible fact that there is no actual hope for them to change this, no matter how hard they tried.

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And Endwalker is all about what we do when faced with ends that cannot be forestalled.

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As fragmented, imperfect beings. Yours is a neverending quest. A quest to find your purpose knowing your end is assured.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

I'm not aware we're given any information that suggests the Ea were somehow unhappy before they reached this state? The fact that the sundered are not as competent at achieving their goals as the Ea were is why they don't struggle with this same issue, they simply have not advanced to a stage where it's even worth thinking about. The responses we do see from them regarding the topic suggest they're just entirely unequipped to even try tacking the problem at all, outside just refusing to acknowledge it.

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So the question stands is it preferable to be the Ea and feel that the only option is oblivion, or the Sundered and perhaps through ignorance (and perhaps through something else) live to flourish and have fulfilling lives?

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

I don't think the setting as provided allows for a happy ending in the extremely long term, outside maybe some exceptionally low maintenance immortals just living in giant time travel loops, I guess. Or as some weird suffering obsessed culture that refuses to fix many problems and views their inevitable death as a good thing, maybe, but that's just cenobites crossed with the ancients.

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By this logic we can say nothing is lost in the destruction of the universe then, as all are doomed to unhappy endings anyway. This is of course Fandaniels position.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

Meteion was wrong because she was (they were?) attempting to take away any autonomy from people or civilisations regarding how they would meet their end, but they were correct about the fate of all life. I don't believe denial of that is a virtue, and I do hope that if there's more quests like these omega ones they might touch more on the Ea, as they're fairly unique in this context.

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One doesn't have to deny entropy in order to believe fighting for tomorrow is worth it. One can accept its inevitably, and much like death to mortal beings, make use of the time we have to its fullest extent. The journey, not the destination, so to speak.

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Originally Posted by LordGiggles

Personally I imagine I'll die somewhere in my early 80s, or maybe my 90s if I'm unlucky enough, but if you're planning on living past 10,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000,​000 years old I can understand why you might have a different take to me on this stuff.

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I don't plan on living that long either. But I do concern myself with those future lives because I also believe they should be fulfilling and good as possible. Which is why I would hope to ensure those lives don’t feel as if self termination before they need to is the better option.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

Sorry if I thought you did, "manifest as dynamis" sounded a lot like you implied it to my non-native speaker ears!

I don't think the sundering would be a bad solution if Venat gave a choice to people. Not "bad" in the sense that it doesn't work, but because she literally killed her whole race but 3 people in all but names. Their souls are still recycled and other life grows from it, but her solution wasn't any better on a life-cost point of view than Hermes' or Emet-Selch.

That could be sundered heroes along entelechy creations and supported from afar by ancients, for all I know.

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We do have her factions quote asking for the Ancients to relinquish stewardship to those new beings. Given what we know about her goals, and her actions that followed that suggestion, I think it logical to conclude that this was a possibility for her. However, two major issues need to be resolved before this is a solution.

1. The Ancients would have to agree to let those beings live their own lives free of interference or control. In order for them to strike against Meteion they would need to develop their own outlooks, reasons and motivations for existing as mortals. Interfering would compromise this.

2. Efforts would have to be taken to separate mortals and the Ancients in order to prevent conflict. The Ancients held sway over the star for millenia. Watching mortals make mistakes and ruin things would be excruciating and given the Unsundereds reasons for hating the Sundered conflict is almost inevitable. Likewise, should mortals come to know the Ancients and their power, they may try to do the same thing they did to the dragons. I'm imagining Thordan 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

I'm not blaming the writers really, it only shows that Venat is very much an Ancient and takes the same kind of drastic measures, just like the others. Hers are based on her love of humanity, Emet on his love of the Ancient society, and Hermes on life itself.
I just don't think saying "there was NO way the Ancients could have done anything, even if they knew what was happening" rests on any solid ground.

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I wouldn't be so quick to presume the writers aren't addressing this chance. This expansions Tales and the Myths of the Realm are still incomplete.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

We do have her factions quote asking for the Ancients to relinquish stewardship to those new beings. Given what we know about her goals, and her actions that followed that suggestion, I think it logical to conclude that this was a possibility for her. However, two major issues need to be resolved before this is a solution.

1. The Ancients would have to agree to let those beings live their own lives free of interference or control. In order for them to strike against Meteion they would need to develop their own outlooks, reasons and motivations for existing as mortals. Interfering would compromise this.

2. Efforts would have to be taken to separate mortals and the Ancients in order to prevent conflict. The Ancients held sway over the star for millenia. Watching mortals make mistakes and ruin things would be excruciating and given the Unsundereds reasons for hating the Sundered conflict is almost inevitable. Likewise, should mortals come to know the Ancients and their power, they may try to do the same thing they did to the dragons. I'm imagining Thordan 2.0.



I wouldn't be so quick to presume the writers aren't addressing this chance. This expansions Tales and the Myths of the Realm are still incomplete.

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I seem to recall one such quote, but I can't seem to find it now. Do you have it around? It doesn't seem to be in Anamnesis.
As for your 1, not necessarily. Beings of similar aether density already exist in the world, namely the multitude of familiars.
We weren't efficient against Meteion because we had torebuild civilization multiple times and had incredibly foreign motivations compared to Ancients. In fact, out outlook on life is quite similar to Venat's, and I suppose Azem's as well.

So no, I argue to integrate them into society as full fledged ancients who made a sacrifice in order to fix the Meteion problem, and they may choose to be rejoined after their purpose is over or continue as mortals in that society.
Even if they were to create a society, I doubt Emet-Selch and the other Ascians would have much issue with how things are done in Sharlayan. A civilization guided by Ancients wouldn't necessarily end in tragedy.
And then, if mortals tried to go full Ancientsong way, how would it end? Rejoin, and become Ancients? Well, one experiment failed, 12000 years of experiment to go!


To be clear, I don't think the writers even imply that Venat's way was the only one. But it's something part of the community thinks, despite constantly failing to give proof. Which is natural since no proof can exist, given it never even had a chance to happen.
The game takes place in a world where Venat did sunder Etheirys, and since our timeline cannot simply be erased due to 10 years of content taking place in it, it had to be resolved this way. They also probably didn't want to do the whole "change past to create a safe timeline" a second time after Shadowbringers, and so had Venat act the way she did. It shows us a flawed Venat, but it works, characters obviously not always making the best decisions.

Even in the liveletter, when Yoshi-P breaches the subject, he says it's something Venat believes, not that there wasn't any other way. She sees Zodiark being summoned, and comes to the conclusion that they'll just go toward their end, envisionning them ending in a similar way as the Plenty. So she decided to sunder everything.
Yoshi-P even mentions that Alphinaud was right when he contested Emet-Selch's right to judge mankind, and that the same applied to Venat.