So, can we just ban damage meters already.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Again, how is that harassment? If the person asks for their numbers, they lose the right to be offended by what they see, if I'm being honest.

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Again, the harassment is in sending the numbers to the entire chat. That includes the one guy who asked for them and 7-23 players who didn't ask for them. I'm 99% certain that the guy who asked for the logs isn't the one who reported.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Im largely against parses due to the mentality they create. Tanks and healers judged on their DPS as opposed to how they play their main roles, while people complain dancer is a bad job because parsers dont show the impact that non-damage actions can contribute.

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When I originally posted this, I wasn't referring to how tanks and healers play in this game.

I'm referring to how it impacts people's perception of those roles.

At it's most extreme, some people would argue that there are NO separate roles, everyone is a DPS, and some roles have extra functions like defensive CDs or heals.

I agree that it's important for tanks to mitigate and DPS, and for healers to heal and DPS, but I am concerned that there's a growing mentality that only the DPS they did matter.

Meaning, some people ignore if the heals were good or if the mitagation was good and judge a tank or healer strictly on the DPS they produced.

For example, I agree that a healer's DPS is often related to the party they are with. Now, imagine a scenario where the group is eating mechanics, so the healer has to heal to keep everyone alive, and afterwards, they complain to the healer about the low DPS produced. I'm concerned that this attitude is fostered and reinforced via parsers.

For example, there was a youtube video where all of the jobs were ranked via a tier list, and it became clear that it was entirely based on their DPS parse.

The video has 50% down votes, and the authors themselves even pinned the following comment (of a larger comment):

>Umm, gonna be blunt this is a very badly done video.

>1. Power (to me) does not equal DPS/HPS. To me power suggests an overall power level, this includes damage, support, debuffs and buffs. Since this is a purely numbers list and does not account for any >support or utility you should have titled the video "DPS/HPS Ranking" instead.

Often there are people who only consider DPS when considering the value of a job, and I think that parsers contribute to that mentality.

Another example occurred this week in the Monday with Mr. Happy video.

Someone asked a question about balance, in particular, asking dancer vs. monk, dragoon, and black mage. Basically, talking about how far behind Dancer was in terms of DPS.

I agree with Mr. Happy's response:

Most of the time when people have discussions about FFlogs, I find it to be very narrow minded . . . there are a lot of positive that come out of logs . . . but the way the information is used is unconstrued . . . taking things at face value, comparing jobs between roles, without actually digging a little bit deeper . . . it's kinda unfortunate that FFlogs has become that and there's this culture behind it that doesn't really understand how the tool is meant to be used, but it's kinda used as a D measuring content, you know, it's super disappointing to me cause it's a tool that could be so much more useful, but it's just used for kinda the worst things to be honest, you know.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Coming from WoW, I find this point of view hilariously refreshing. There are tons of thread wars in WoW over whether 25-man raids should be accessible through the WoW equivalent of duty finder (Raid Finder/LFR). The consensus among the elitists there is that widely accessible 25-man content breeds bad players who get used to being carried and should therefore be limited exclusively to pre-made groups. Personally, I think that raids available through duty finder should have no more than 10 people. Any more than that, and it's tough to maintain accountability. The problem is not that people aren't learning how to do mechanics and expecting to be carried. The problem is that 4% of the players aren't learning the mechanics, and odds are that one of those guys will be in your group every time when you're running with 24 random people.

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But you see, it's not a group of 24. It's 3 groups of 8, which each party dealing with its own mechanics, spread into 3 parts of the arena generally, so as to not impact the other parties.

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There's a reason why min ilevel exists if not they why even bother having something so arbitrary?

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Minimum ilvl exists because those are ilvls where you're expected to not be dead weight.

The first boss of each raid tier is generally set at 10 ilvl below crafted/normal raid gear at the same tier, and the last fight in each tier is set at that tier's normal raid/crafted ilvl.

If you're in a coordinated group, who isnt going to have the +1 ilvl/piece from current tier limited tomestones before entering savage the first time, you're NEVER going to have minimum Ilvl across every player, because you'll already be 5-10 ilvl higher than the minimum before you zone in t the first two, and you'll have picked up ~5-6 or ~9-10 ilvl from the drops you get in early floors for the later floors.

If you ARENT in a coordinated group, you're still not going into those fights at minimum ilvl, and will most likely be doing them with notably higher ilvl the first time you clear them.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Again, the harassment is in sending the numbers to the entire chat. That includes the one guy who asked for them and 7-23 players who didn't ask for them. I'm 99% certain that the guy who asked for the logs isn't the one who reported.

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If only the number of the person who asked is posted, how is that harassment? No one else’s numbers are posted. Are they going to feel harassed by another’s performance? Generally, only the number of the player who requests the number is posted. Rarely are the numbers of everyone laid out chat.

Person A: Was anyone parsing? How did I do?
Person B: You did [number].

That is how these exchanges usually occur when they do happen. So, again: is Person C/D/E/F/G/H going to be offended by Person A’s numbers? No. The people who report exchanges like this do so because of the “omg parser bad” mentality.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Again, the harassment is in sending the numbers to the entire chat. That includes the one guy who asked for them and 7-23 players who didn't ask for them. I'm 99% certain that the guy who asked for the logs isn't the one who reported.

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You're aware tells can't be sent while in a duty right? Like, at all?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If only the number of the person who asked is posted, how is that harassment? No one else’s numbers are posted. Are they going to feel harassed by another’s performance? Generally, only the number of the player who requests the number is posted. Rarely are the numbers of everyone laid out chat.

Person A: Was anyone parsing? How did I do?
Person B: You did [number].

That is how these exchanges usually occur when they do happen. So, again: is Person C/D/E/F/G/H going to be offended by Person A’s numbers? No. The people who report exchanges like this do so because of the “omg parser bad” mentality.

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The issue, unfortunately, becomes when player C starts thinking "If Player B knows Player As numbers, then they know mine. And I did not give them permission for that/Theyre secretly judging me and any negativity I receive from them is because of the parser".

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Again, the harassment is in sending the numbers to the entire chat. That includes the one guy who asked for them and 7-23 players who didn't ask for them. I'm 99% certain that the guy who asked for the logs isn't the one who reported.

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Imagine being offended over your party being able to see how much you're contributing to the raid that you have to report someone for "harassment." In normal content, most people don't even parse, but it's very easy to tell when someone is slacking.

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

More like "afraid of no longer getting carried". When I try to join static and they tell me my DPS isn't good enough for a clear, that's an objective, measurable, neutral fact. I can then decide to either try to improve or to accept that I won't be doing savage. The only person that is afraid of that scenario is the person that was still hoping of doing savage while knowing they are not good enough.
Just bc 99% of the game is a participation medal doesn't mean the final 1% which is endgame is as well. The game just does a bad job at communicating it, so people still feel entitled to keep getting rewarded for subpar play.

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The most underrated reply in the whole topic, Royal nailed it.

Whe worst part is that people do not only expect to get carried at Sav, they do exactly the same at Ex.
And since we are not allowed to post proof of such players cause their fragile feelings will get hurt, ill turn my attention to SE and ask:

Why don't you "lock" the Ex/Sav content behind a tutorial at the very least?
Something like an obstacle course with 1HKO mechs that players can attend up to X times per week.

Will it fix everything? Of course not.
Would it filter out people who wouldn't pass Titan or even Lev without getting carried? Possibly.

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Why don't you "lock" the Ex/Sav content behind a tutorial at the very least?

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I 'd be perfectly fine with a stone/sky/sea trial that required pulling at least a significant % of the necessary damage in order to flag the player as savage/ex'able

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Originally Posted by Barraind

I 'd be perfectly fine with a stone/sky/sea trial that required pulling at least a significant % of the necessary damage in order to flag the player as savage/ex'able

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Until some form of movement, dodging or disconnects get added to SSS, it'll forever be irrelevant to real content though. I can program a button on my keyboard to beat SSS for me.

Been playing this game since patch 2.2 and can count on one hand how many times I have seen people lose their shit over a dps meter in game. Mind you this is not talking about performance like the village favorite ice mage. Or standing in the fire. But actually calling them out for low damage numbers. Lots of people seem to think without a parser we cannot tell your not doing a good job. There are many signs in game.

in 3+ years never once in a PUG have I had a player use damage meters directly to insult others, sure it is easy to tell who is slacking off, but I do not need a dmg meter to know that as well.

I don't use it in low level content. Mostly for savage raids. They're helpful since savage is very much about not accepting anyone who is bad at the game into your group because it makes the fights impossible. Though it's quite easy for me to see based on the damage if everyone is not doing damage. Most notably in duty finder expert roulettes which as tank sometimes take like 30-40 minutes since even if you pull everything the DPS is just bad. Typically I leave those type of groups after the first pull.

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Originally Posted by MPK

That's literally from 2015. For fights like ultimate there's no way to clear it without healer DPS and you can't outgear that. There's no way it's possible that the min ilevel is not the assumed level

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Week 1 (in eden savage) if you took the absolute best max 100 percentile padded dps (before fflogs had rdps as default) and the same for tanks and added them you were still short by a lot for some encounters iirc.

Needless to say it was impossible to get 6 100 percentile parses at the same time since you can't pad everyone. So healer DPS was absolutely necessary and that source from 2015 still holds and is valid for savage tier too. Even today lets say all your dps pull 14k and your tanks 9k that's a total of 74k so you're still short for e4s. And lets be honest, how often are your dps at 14k.. and tanks at 9k? Good luck never clearing if your healers don't dps.

If you report someone for bringing up parse numbers, they WILL be at least temporarily banned.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

Week 1 (in eden savage) if you took the absolute best max 100 percentile padded dps (before fflogs had rdps as default) and the same for tanks and added them you were still short by a lot for some encounters iirc.

Needless to say it was impossible to get 6 100 percentile parses at the same time since you can't pad everyone. So healer DPS was absolutely necessary and that source from 2015 still holds and is valid for savage tier too. Even today lets say all your dps pull 14k and your tanks 9k that's a total of 74k so you're still short for e4s. And lets be honest, how often are your dps at 14k.. and tanks at 9k? Good luck never clearing if your healers don't dps.

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Yeah it's asinine to even think that devs actually design savage content with 0 healer DPS in mind.

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Originally Posted by Conando

If you report someone for bringing up parse numbers, they WILL be at least temporarily banned.

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Throwing numbrs out there are no proof someone is parsing tho. I could make numbers up. Had a SAM who was pulling decent numbers, and he knew it, but he was like "How's my DPS?" just bc he wanted to hear someone else say it, and I was "Barely above healers, better step it up a bit mate." just to ruffle his feathers and ofc he knew I was joking. Does that proof I was parsing? Anyone could crack a joke like that without parsing.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Until some form of movement, dodging or disconnects get added to SSS, it'll forever be irrelevant to real content though. I can program a button on my keyboard to beat SSS for me.

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Not to mention that SSS conditions are stricter than the actual raid is.
You need way more DPS to actually kill the SSS dummy than you need for clearing the raid.

9 times out of 10 the casual player that's ok with spending 40mins in a dungeon is far more toxic than any person with a parser.

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Originally Posted by Relliksz

9 times out of 10 the casual player that's ok with spending 40mins in a dungeon is far more toxic than any person with a parser.

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Pretty much this. Most of the times they're the passive aggressive types, or the rage quit type that leaves after something goes wrong, as if the party is the problem without njoticing that they themselves were the problem child all along and the party just had the courtesy to still keep going, so they're giving them the finger not once but even twice for being patient and investing so much time instead of kicking him right away lol.

Why would you want to ban them???

They should be an official part of the game! Where enrages are thing they need to introduce it so people can gauge their performance and see where to improve!

Most arguments only start because people who don't use them don't realise they are under performing and get defensive when someone tries to offer advice!

If it was there in black and white there wouldn't be a salty argument, they would realise they're doing it wrong and welcome even ask for advice from higher performing players!

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Originally Posted by doofy

Why would you want to ban them???

They should be an official part of the game! Where enrages are thing they need to introduce it so people can gauge their performance and see where to improve!

Most arguments only start because people who don't use them don't realise they are under performing and get defensive when someone tries to offer advice!

If it was there in black and white there wouldn't be a salty argument, they would realise they're doing it wrong and welcome even ask for advice from higher performing players!

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Because there are players who insist they should be allowed to play how the want. You can show them the math of a Boss having X hp and the party having Y minutes to kill them, resulting in exact numbers each member has to deliver in order to clear, they simply don't care because they don't onsider that "fun" and rather play in a more "fun" way which apparently consists of using a single button rotation or autoattacking.
They know they're underperforming becuse they have been told countless times (that's why they start these threads in the first place ^^), but they'll rather get you banned than start playing high end content the way it is intended.

Now this wouldn't be an issue if they went to have "fun" in Sastasha. They can do that 24/7 all week long as far as I'm concerned. Problem is they bring that attitude to content where it just doesn't fly. 7 party members hving to pull 2k DPS more each just so 1 person can have "fun" and get a carry they didn't earn and then roll a 99 on loot as the icing on the cake is completely ok in their eyes.

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Originally Posted by Relliksz

9 times out of 10 the casual player that's ok with spending 40mins in a dungeon is far more toxic than any person with a parser.

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I will never forget the Samurai my friend and I had in a Tsukiyomi farm several months back. I was literally 1k above him despite having been lying on the floor, dead, for a full minute. As for my friend, she was pulling almost double his numbers. We were on Ninja and Bard, respectively. After the third wipe or thereabouts I actually made a comment about how low the DPS was. Mr. 3k Samurai chimes in how much I suck and kicks me. When my friend says she's just going to leave, he rants and raves that she's garbage too. And it's her fault we're not clearing.

And yet we're the toxic, elitist raiders with the evil numbers. I have legit seen more toxicity from bad players than raiders, and I've pugged Savage.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Meaning, some people ignore if the heals were good or if the mitagation was good and judge a tank or healer strictly on the DPS they produced.

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The primary reason this happens is because what player who knows people thinking this way is wrong will come out and say something when they know mentioning FFlogs can risk their account? Conversely, if we could bring up logs publicly. I could point out how the DPS whining at the Healer had five damage down stacks or the Healer themselves could note they had 15,000 HPS and very little overhealing. Which means they had to do a ton of healing either due to people eating mechanics or their co-healer not pulling their weight. Of course, not everyone would listen but you have to consider how many people simply stay silent because parsers are such a grey area.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

I agree with Mr. Happy's response:

Most of the time when people have discussions about FFlogs, I find it to be very narrow minded . . . there are a lot of positive that come out of logs . . . but the way the information is used is unconstrued . . . taking things at face value, comparing jobs between roles, without actually digging a little bit deeper . . . it's kinda unfortunate that FFlogs has become that and there's this culture behind it that doesn't really understand how the tool is meant to be used, but it's kinda used as a D measuring content, you know, it's super disappointing to me cause it's a tool that could be so much more useful, but it's just used for kinda the worst things to be honest, you know.

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Except Happy barely looks at FFlogs. I generally like him, however his response here is somewhat disingenuous. Currently, a 20% Monk actually contributes more rDPS than a 50% Ninja. That is, frankly, absurd. It essentially justifies locking out Ninja for Monk since you can literally get someone who has barely has any idea what they're doing and they'll still offer more than an average Ninja. Likewise, people have dug deeper. Range DPS is so low, there is very real consideration for double Black Mage. If Summoner gets a decent enough buff come 5.1, all three range jobs will suffer significantly. On the flipside of all this, you never see people locking out Warrior despite it technically being the weakest tank. Why? The damage difference so close no one cares.

While I normally agree locking out jobs is dumb. When the discrepancies are this drastic, it falls on the dev team for the imbalance mess they've created. What I cited above regarding Monk and Ninja should not be possible. And it shows the dev team needs to do better.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I
Except Happy barely looks at FFlogs. I generally like him, however his response here is somewhat disingenuous. Currently, a 20% Monk actually contributes more rDPS than a 50% Ninja. That is, frankly, absurd. It essentially justifies locking out Ninja for Monk since you can literally get someone who has barely has any idea what they're doing and they'll still offer more than an average Ninja. Likewise, people have dug deeper. Range DPS is so low, there is very real consideration for double Black Mage. If Summoner gets a decent enough buff come 5.1, all three range jobs will suffer significantly. On the flipside of all this, you never see people locking out Warrior despite it technically being the weakest tank. Why? The damage difference so close no one cares.

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Happy said his comments would be controversial, and will put out a video discussing it, so Ill let him defend his remarks. Ill just say that my comment was about how people can use numbers badly rather than balance. I agree, people can use logs and parses in a bad manner.

At the same time, they can have worth.

Ultimately, I think the developers made the right decision. Because parsers have the potential for bad and good, they regulate the behaviour, how they are used, which does seem like a fair compromise.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I
Except Happy barely looks at FFlogs. I generally like him, however his response here is somewhat disingenuous. Currently, a 20% Monk actually contributes more rDPS than a 50% Ninja. That is, frankly, absurd. It essentially justifies locking out Ninja for Monk since you can literally get someone who has barely has any idea what they're doing and they'll still offer more than an average Ninja. Likewise, people have dug deeper. Range DPS is so low, there is very real consideration for double Black Mage. If Summoner gets a decent enough buff come 5.1, all three range jobs will suffer significantly. On the flipside of all this, you never see people locking out Warrior despite it technically being the weakest tank. Why? The damage difference so close no one cares.

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Happy said his comments would be controversial, and will put out a video discussing it, so Ill let him defend his remarks. Ill just say that my comment was about how people can use numbers badly rather than balance. I agree, people can use logs and parses in a bad manner.

At the same time, they can have worth.

Ultimately, I think the developers made the right decision. Because parsers have the potential for bad and good, they regulate the behaviour, how they are used, which does seem like a fair compromise.

If I had a vote, I would just ban them entirely, but that may not even be realistic, so I understand the decision to regulate player behaviour instead

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Happy said his comments would be controversial, and will put out a video discussing it, so Ill let him defend his remarks. Ill just say that my comment was about how people can use numbers badly rather than balance. I agree, people can use logs and parses in a bad manner.

At the same time, they can have worth.

Ultimately, I think the developers made the right decision. Because parsers have the potential for bad and good, they regulate the behaviour, how they are used, which does seem like a fair compromise.

If I had a vote, I would just ban them entirely, but that may not even be realistic, so I understand the decision to regulate player behaviour instead

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By that same logic, should we ban Party Chat and Vote Abandon/Dismissal? Both can easily be abused or "used in a bad manner." I can literally kick you from a dungeon without a single word said and I'm protected under the guise of "difference of playstyle." Banning something because a minority will behave like morons isn't a good enough reason, especially when harassment policies would still be enforced. So if I railed on and on about how you're a terrible player, should uninstall and etc, I'd be rightfully reprimanded regardless if I posted logs or not.

No. The actual reason parsers are "regulated" is because SE likes coddling people. They don't want the Samurai pulling 7k DPS to feel bad even if it's Savage.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

So if I railed on and on about how you're a terrible player, should uninstall and etc, I'd be rightfully reprimanded regardless if I posted logs or not.

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And even then, who cares? "Oh no, someone on the interwebs said mean things." What do you do when a random 12 year old in the street calls you something mean? Call the cops?

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

By that same logic, should we ban Party Chat and Vote Abandon/Dismissal? Both can easily be abused or "used in a bad manner." I can literally kick you from a dungeon without a single word said and I'm protected under the guise of "difference of playstyle.

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My personal desire for them to be banned is because I feel they impact more than just how people interact with each other.

On the topic of party chat or vote abandon; I feel it’s the behaviour that should regulated. If someone feels they were harassed by someone, they have the right to report it and have it investigated.

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

And even then, who cares? "Oh no, someone on the interwebs said mean things." What do you do when a random 12 year old in the street calls you something mean? Call the cops?

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I think people are fine to criticize others, remove them from group, and say things like: sorry, you are holding back the team, we have to let you go

People are allowed to criticize, which is regulated for civility, but you are allowed to kick people or criticize them. I dont think you are forced to have them in your party either

Though, if SE built in parsers into ex trials and savage, that would probably be a pretty clear indication to people that those are only content that should be parsed. Would likely mean little to no parsing in any other content.

Of course that would require SE to build parsers as good as the existing ones, which there's no guarantee. If they weren't as good, ppl would just use the 3rd party ones anyways. And to make something as good as the 3rd party ones would take dev time, which would take time away from other things, further cementing a dislike of parsers.

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Originally Posted by seraseth

Though, if SE built in parsers into ex trials and savage, that would probably be a pretty clear indication to people that those are only content that should be parsed. Would likely mean little to no parsing in any other content.

Of course that would require SE to build parsers as good as the existing ones, which there's no guarantee. If they weren't as good, ppl would just use the 3rd party ones anyways. And to make something as good as the 3rd party ones would take dev time, which would take time away from other things, further cementing a dislike of parsers.

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But the issue isnt the parser, more so how people use and interpret them.

They could build the perfect system, and the issue of how people are behaving to each other based on the parser would remain.

For that reason, it’s more about regulating people’s behaviour, as they have been doing

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

But the issue isnt the parser, more so how people use and interpret them.

They could build the perfect system, and the issue of how people are behaving to each other based on the parser would remain.

For that reason, it’s more about regulating people’s behaviour, as they have been doing

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Your way of thinking lead to the only logical conclusion: the removal of the chat. No chat, no way to harass/bully.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

For that reason, it’s more about regulating people’s behaviour, as they have been doing

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SE doesn't have, nor is willing to commit the manpower to achieve that.
So "banning" parsers is not so much about the community but to dramatically cut down in reports due to misuse of the tool.

Way more simple to give GMs a hard & fast rule of "red = dead" instead of actually having to analyze the conversations and determining whether they crossed any lines or not.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

For that reason, it’s more about regulating people’s behaviour, as they have been doing

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That just reminded me of this ^^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjoSQ-lCA58

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

My personal desire for them to be banned is because I feel they impact more than just how people interact with each other.

On the topic of party chat or vote abandon; I feel it’s the behaviour that should regulated. If someone feels they were harassed by someone, they have the right to report it and have it investigated.

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If everything in MMO experience harass you, maybe consider playing single-player games?
MMO is a genre designed to be played with other people, who contribute equally. And, yes, in some content you need to contribute more, because some ppl interested in mashing 1 button, and some ppl want really hard content.
If I dislike genre — I don't play it instead of telling everyone that it should be reshaped for my needs and ego.

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Meaning, some people ignore if the heals were good or if the mitagation was good and judge a tank or healer strictly on the DPS they produced.

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Again, at least from the tank perspective, there are almost 0 buttons you can press that arent going to be used in response to tankbusters that will impact mitigation in any way.

Theres no "I sacrificed damage for survivability" tradeoff, because tanks dont have those buttons in 14.

We dont spend gcd's to shield block, its an ogcd that isnt competing with damage. we dont use a gcd to shield wall, its a button we ogcd that doesnt compete with anything. We dont lose damage to go into a defensive discipline, because its an ogcd that doesnt compete with anything. We dont lose damage to go into an evasive discipline because you probably get the point by now (also at least half of those dont exist in this game).

You judge tanks by their damage because they pretty much all took turns drawing from a grab bag of assorted ogcd abilities, either selfless or selfish, and all basically do the same thing. The ONLY thing that separates them, outside timing on Veil, Shake it Off or similar, is damage.

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Originally Posted by RoyalBeef

That just reminded me of this ^^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjoSQ-lCA58

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There is such a thing as over-regulation, and under-regulated.

But some regulations and rules are necessary and good for the functioning of society, which allows everyone to benefit.

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Originally Posted by Myaku

If everything in MMO experience harass you, maybe consider playing single-player games?
MMO is a genre designed to be played with other people, who contribute equally. And, yes, in some content you need to contribute more, because some ppl interested in mashing 1 button, and some ppl want really hard content.
If I dislike genre — I don't play it instead of telling everyone that it should be reshaped for my needs and ego.

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I’m not referring to myself, how much I like or dislike MMOs, nor discussing how much different people should be contributing. I’m discussing how people should interact with people in an MMOs, especially strangers, and I feel it should be in a civil and mature matter. Do you disagree?

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Originally Posted by Barraind

Again, at least from the tank perspective, there are almost 0 buttons you can press that arent going to be used in response to tankbusters that will impact mitigation in any way.

Theres no "I sacrificed damage for survivability" tradeoff, because tanks dont have those buttons in 14.

We dont spend gcd's to shield block, its an ogcd that isnt competing with damage. we dont use a gcd to shield wall, its a button we ogcd that doesnt compete with anything. We dont lose damage to go into a defensive discipline, because its an ogcd that doesnt compete with anything. We dont lose damage to go into an evasive discipline because you probably get the point by now (also at least half of those dont exist in this game).

You judge tanks by their damage because they pretty much all took turns drawing from a grab bag of assorted ogcd abilities, either selfless or selfish, and all basically do the same thing. The ONLY thing that separates them, outside timing on Veil, Shake it Off or similar, is damage.

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Are you saying that when you pick a tank, the only thing that should be considered is the damage they do and nothing else? Because my argument is that when you consider the worth of a job, or how well someone did, you consider all aspects rather than focusing on specifically on the DPS number produced by the parser. If you think you should consider only DPS when choosing a tank, then we have a disagreement. I believe all aspects of a job should be considered when choosing it’s worth.

In shadowbringers, picking a tank is taking whoever 2 people on whichever two classes you want.

Except for how their rotation works (warrior and dk have more defined burst phases, paladin and gunbreaker have 2 modes they cycle between), theres almost no difference. They specifically designed tanks around being interchangable.


Which leaves you with personal differences, which are pretty much all discernable in parses. Did you let your self buffs drop? Did you maximize burst phases? Did you press the button that says "this didnt kill me, try again shortly"? (If you didn't, your damage will be awful because you just died).

Tank success at everything else will be easily discernable by their damage output.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

I’m not referring to myself, how much I like or dislike MMOs, nor discussing how much different people should be contributing. I’m discussing how people should interact with people in an MMOs, especially strangers, and I feel it should be in a civil and mature matter. Do you disagree?

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I agree, but still don't understand how one's perfomance can harass this person, honestly. There are many even single-player games with missions, where you got a grade at the end, which shows how you performed. Is this harassment too?

I find more harassing when you politely ask someone to make aoe rotation/to get better gear/etc and get the reply like 'you don't pay my sub', 'I play like I want' while auto-attacking mobs in the dungeon. We're paying real money for this game, and someone just wants to waste it and get 1-hour dungeon run. And still the person who asks politely to perform better is the one who harass. Why?