Why Does It Feel Like Poor Play Is Acceptable (I'm Venting.)

Theres a few factors people dont get about why they think its lazy training.

People might want to consider things like POTD for the rise in 'lazy play'. POTD and speed lvling means players arent learning their classes in an in depth manner. And you dont need to know your class all that well to clear POTD and the like.

The problem MMOs always face with more and more content is that to allow new players to 'catch up', they end up dumbing down the content that would teach players how to play their class effectively, or even the game at large.

To many people get to max level way to quick, then try to do end game content just like how they did the power lvling, and well, we know how that turns out. If you want less Lazy play, lower lvl content needs to be not so easily bypassed. No POTD for sub 60 alternate classes. No unsynched runs for sub lvl 60 characters. Etc. Force people to play the content.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Theres a few factors people dont get about why they think its lazy training.

People might want to consider things like POTD for the rise in 'lazy play'. POTD and speed lvling means players arent learning their classes in an in depth manner. And you dont need to know your class all that well to clear POTD and the like.

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There are many people who does things through dungeons too and yet to know their classes. We talk about people who been playing for years.

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Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha

You are oversimplifying though. It's not just hit 1-2-3. You have to also deal with how large a group of mobs are, you have to make sure they are facing the correct direction when maintaining aggro, you have to deal with the occasional aoe requiring you to move, you have to make sure your hotbar is set up correctly so you can use those skills efficiently, you have to actually know what those skills do, you have to understand what the tool tip is telling you and so on. It's not just 1-2-3. For people like me, it can just be too much.

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No, this is literally "hit Flash a few times". That's it. If you do that and nothing else, you will tank all trash in Dusk Vigil effectively enough to keep everything on you (and thus probably clear). It's a very low standard of play and they failed to meet it.

It's hard to say if its laziness or incompetence, but whatever it is, at that level it's unacceptable.

If you want to be a good tank, then you need to deal with proper rotations and cooldown usage and stance dancing and all that. But all those things come after the enemies are hitting you... and that means hit Flash.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

To many people get to max level way to quick, then try to do end game content just like how they did the power lvling, and well, we know how that turns out. If you want less Lazy play, lower lvl content needs to be not so easily bypassed. No POTD for sub 60 alternate classes. No unsynched runs for sub lvl 60 characters. Etc. Force people to play the content.

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While I agree with the idea behind this, as the game goes forward, if you force the lowbies to brick their way up all the time, they'll never catch up.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

While I agree with the idea behind this, as the game goes forward, if you force the lowbies to brick their way up all the time, they'll never catch up.

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Meet it halfway. You cant use POTD unless you get a class to 50 the first time, (there should be no reason to use POTD if youre still sub 50 on ANY class), and you need to run all MSQ dungeons once unsynched. It doesnt take months to clear the MSQ dungeons. theres only 20 or 30 of them at most.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

snip

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Except PotD unlocks at level 17? There's no reason to gate off alternate methods of leveling just because there are players who are sub-par. It is also a great way to bridge the level gaps that the 2.0 story has.

And why the additional requirement of basically having to complete the 2.55 story? I don't see why such a requirement should be needed for PotD. If you're implying that doing dungeons help people learn their class then I'll happily disagree with you.

I remember SE saying that PotD would be content veteran players could do with friends that just started the game waaay back when it was first announced. Gating it behind so much of the main story would take away from that.

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Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha

Could have been someone who just sucks at tanking.

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If you suck so much on the job that you cant even do the basics like keeping hate then you really shouldnt run those dungeons. Those players simply could train their skills in stuff like palace of the death or even with the new commando. I am bad at tanking too so I only level it up outside of dungeons. I would find it not fair for the group if they had to play even harder just because I am that bad. I mean if you dont have enough good players with you just that one person can make a run impossible. So yes its bad for them to have to level it on another way but one should not punish the other players for their own lack in skill.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Meet it halfway. You cant use POTD unless you get a class to 50 the first time, (there should be no reason to use POTD if youre still sub 50 on ANY class), and you need to run all MSQ dungeons once unsynched. It doesnt take months to clear the MSQ dungeons. theres only 20 or 30 of them at most.

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PotD isn't the problem.

It's an odd leveling option, but it still gives you a taste of your job. If you read your abilities, you still can learn in Palace. The only thing Palace can't teach you is positioning. Bosses do last long enough to get rotations out.

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Originally Posted by Melichoir

Meet it halfway. You cant use POTD unless you get a class to 50 the first time, (there should be no reason to use POTD if youre still sub 50 on ANY class), and you need to run all MSQ dungeons once unsynched. It doesnt take months to clear the MSQ dungeons. theres only 20 or 30 of them atmost.

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Problem you seem to have is assuming. I feel you think the general "skill level" of the average DF runner went down after POTD was released. I do not agree with that. If someone's personality is to care about their performance, they will learn how to play the job just running POTD. Likewise if someone is lazy, do not care, etc, they will do the bare minimum, no matter the situation. why? because the game lets them, the game lets the lazy be carried. Since it is not needed to put in full effort to clear, why put in the full effort? Many have that view. You need to make the game harder or have tutorial requirements. People do not know they are bad because they are clearing stuff and think they are playing things right

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Originally Posted by AphraelAmarantha

You are oversimplifying though. It's not just hit 1-2-3. You have to also deal with how large a group of mobs are, you have to make sure they are facing the correct direction when maintaining aggro, you have to deal with the occasional aoe requiring you to move, you have to make sure your hotbar is set up correctly so you can use those skills efficiently, you have to actually know what those skills do, you have to understand what the tool tip is telling you and so on. It's not just 1-2-3. For people like me, it can just be too much.

I am not saying that lazy play doesn't happen. However to think that bad players are ONLY just lazy players is a bad generalization and discredits the claim. It's like saying "Some of these apples have worms in them so ALL apples must have worms in it." It's faulty logic and doesn't support the claim. There may be more factors going on then what appears on your screen.

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I think it is all related to lazyness, even if more indirectly. Lazyness of not asking for tips, lazyness not looking up information, lazyness of not reading tips. This game appeals to seems to be wants to be open for everyone. Well if it is going to be made for everyone, you need Tutorials to be explained in a way to people that never played a game before. I did get in a low level group once where this mentor was trying to explain to this new tank how to play. After a while they where having problems because they never played a game before, let alone MNORPG. Maybe there can be a prompt giving extra optional Tutorials to do. I do not mean the hall of novice and it does take a bit to understand it. I mean before you even see the first cut scene, "Would you like to see basic tips of the game ? (This is a good idea to hit yes if you never played a MNORPG before)"

It really should not take much thought to face monsters away from the party because of cleaves, or you need the monsters be packed tightly together for some aoes have a small radius. Can you explain more in detail why tank scares you? maybe we can think of putting something in the game to encourage more tanks because we all know there is a shortage of them, and every bit helps.

I mean it is why I made this thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...able-to-use-DF.

Maybe you be fine with tanking if there was something you could interact with to show you. I do not think the current hall of novice really shows what people expect you to do when our ilevel 310 or w/e

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

I think it is all related to lazyness, even if more indirectly. Lazyness of not asking for tips, lazyness not looking up information, lazyness of not reading tips. This game appeals to seems to be wants to be open for everyone. Well if it is going to be made for everyone, you need Tutorials to be explained in a way to people that never played a game before. I did get in a low level group once where this mentor was trying to explain to this new tank how to play. After a while they where having problems because they never played a game before, let alone MNORPG. Maybe there can be a prompt giving extra optional Tutorials to do. I do not mean the hall of novice and it does take a bit to understand it. I mean before you even see the first cut scene, "Would you like to see basic tips of the game ? (This is a good idea to hit yes if you never played a MNORPG before)"

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I'm a professional software developer. Speaking from first hand experience, tutorials won't reach the players you want to reach. Why? They don't read them. They want to click them away as fast as possible to get back to whatever they wanted to do. Ever tried making a Delete function that won't result in accidental deletion? It's impossible. No matter how many checks, confirmations, and warnings you put in, people will still do it. At some point it becomes counter productive because once you have too many, they stop reading them entirely and just click "Yes" to everything blindly. People also do this with browser security prompts, which is part of why security is so terrible and also why browsers display far fewer prompts than they used to. (True story: I had someone delete a record, then call support. They asked where the record had gone and why it was missing. I checked the logs, walked up to their desk, and showed them the delete button they pressed, then the giant red warning that it'd delete the record they also pressed. Clearly they didn't read either of these things because they were surprised that a delete button existed, and it was very hard for me to resist asking if they were in fact capable of reading.)

It's not even about "laziness", per se. At the end of the day, people want to clear content. For your core gamer, they also want to optimize, try to find tricks, and such. For another segment of the market, they don't. They want to get their goal done, and that's it. If they can do that, as far as they're concerned, nothing is wrong. If they're being carried? So what? The game doesn't tell them that, and there's no real disincentive to do it in roulette because the only problem aside from a kick is failure, and failure is RARE in roulettes.

It can be a real culture shock when people hit Ex/Savage and suddenly start being told they're doing bad DPS when nothing has ever told them that before and it hasn't mattered at all. A tutorial won't fix that. If you want to fix that, you need to surface that information a lot earlier. IMO you also need to up the difficulty of levelling and expert content so that poor play is more punishing, because if you can stand in absolutely everything and be carried by the healer, what's the harm?

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Originally Posted by Tridus

It can be a real culture shock when people hit Ex/Savage and suddenly start being told they're doing bad DPS when nothing has ever told them that before and it hasn't mattered at all. A tutorial won't fix that. If you want to fix that, you need to surface that information a lot earlier. IMO you also need to up the difficulty of levelling and expert content so that poor play is more punishing, because if you can stand in absolutely everything and be carried by the healer, what's the harm?

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This here is why I get so tilted over the eased difficulty we've seen since mid-Heavensward. Look no further than Sunsao and Lakshmi EX, where the excuse was "people are learning their new abilities!" Fast forward to Shinryu EX and pf is a complete shitshow. Why? The former two didn't allow people to learn but simply made it far easier to carry bad players since you scarcely even need six people for either. Shinryu, on the other hand, exposed those detrimental to the party. The easier casual content becomes, the less people pay attention because nothing reinforces the notion they should. A friend of mine actually got a tank who had never touched Savage before and said "I cleared V4N. Shouldn't be that much different." They legitimately thought normal was just a slight tier below. Honestly, I suspect many newer players have similar opinions only to get absolutely decimated.

If the devs ever truly want to shrink the skill gap, they need to stop coddling and make reasonably paced difficulty curves. Considering they've come out saying The Vault was too much for leveling healers, I won't hold my breath...

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

If the devs ever truly want to shrink the skill gap, they need to stop coddling and make reasonably paced difficulty curves. Considering they've come out saying The Vault was too much for leveling healers, I won't hold my breath...

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That frustrates me to no end because I main WHM and I loved healing The Vault. When you get a total mess on that and the group pulls it out anyway, it's a great feeling.

There's no real sense of accomplishment without the risk of failure. They seem to have lost sight of that in favor of "nothing can kill you". Like the last boss on Sirensong Sea. If your healer is awake, everyone else can fail the mechanic every time and be fine so long as they run back out afterward. That's it. Compared to the punch in the face The Vault would give you for messing up repeatedly and it's just not satisfying to beat it unless you try to push your healer DPS as high as possible (because that's where the only challenge is).

Seems like the wrong direction to me.

People still complaining about how the game is somehow too easy? must be sad living in a world where nothing is good enough.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

People still complaining about how the game is somehow too easy? must be sad living in a world where nothing is good enough.

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Stop trolling.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

People still complaining about how the game is somehow too easy? must be sad living in a world where nothing is good enough.

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People still complaining about how people still complain about how the game is somehow too easy? Must be sad living in a world where you feel the need to complain about people complaining.

Maybe they complain because it is. Majority of content is ridiculously easy with little to no punishment for failing. That's why people go into V4S groups saying "I've cleared normal mode; Savage shouldn't be any different".

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Originally Posted by Miste

So that level 65 PLD (who also had multiple other level 70 jobs including DARK KNIGHT) I came across who couldn't hold hate on anything in Dusk Vigil... [snip]... they were just new/didn't know what to do?

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No matter the amount of wishing you do, level is just not a representation of skill or knowledge. I knew someone in ARR who had max level tanks but couldn't tank. They didn't like the pressure of tanking, but wanted max level jobs, so they leveled PLD and WAR w/o dungeons.

At one point in time, this person decided to give tanking another go and as expected, was performing terribly and was given a hard time for not understanding how to tank. This person has given up tanking again.

Level is not an indicator of skill or knowledge. You don't know the other players situation, so don't make accusations based on your feelings about them, make them based on actual evidence.

Side point: this whole situation can be avoided by simply treating them like they don't know what they're doing. Politely give them reasonable instructions such has using flash X times, should they decided not to use flash, they aren't working with the party and you can kick them regardless of their skill/knowledge.

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I think you're still floating out in that nebula 5million light years from planet Earth still if you think you cannot tell if laziness is a factor sometimes.

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Laziness can be a factor. Level is not a data-point you can use to determine that.
For example, John Smith is Level 70 everything. How good is he at tanking? It's just not a question you can answer with level.

For the sake of humoring you, even if we were make assumptions about people's situations, your augment just doesn't make any sense for the scenario you're giving. I could see a 'lazy player' scenario where a tank drops tank stance, isnt paying enough attention cause they're watching netflix, and loses hate on a boss. Maybe a healer misses a heal, etc. But not being able to hold threat on "anything" as a result of being lazy? Tanking isn't THAT hard lol. You're making quite the stretch.

However, tanking would prove very challenging for someone who has little idea what they are doing.

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Originally Posted by winsock

No matter the amount of wishing you do, level is just not a representation of skill or knowledge. I knew someone in ARR who had max level tanks but couldn't tank. They didn't like the pressure of tanking, but wanted max level jobs, so they leveled PLD and WAR w/o dungeons.

At one point in time, this person decided to give tanking another go and as expected, was performing terribly and was given a hard time for not understanding how to tank. This person has given up tanking again.

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Tank expectation: Hold Threat of mobs. Was he not holding threat? You can literally hold threat against more than 1 enemy with 1 single button.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Side point: this whole situation can be avoided by simply treating them like they don't know what they're doing. Politely give them reasonable instructions such has using flash X times, should they decided not to use flash, they aren't working with the party and you can kick them regardless of their skill/knowledge.

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Side point: We do that already. To be honest here, I don't know if I can make the advice I give even easier besides hacking their computer and playing for them. You think I didn't explain to that warrior what the combo was? You think I didn't explain the mechanic that everyone else was messing up? I even communicated, I had a macro that made a sound effect for when we had to hide to avoid the attack. Nobody listened. And in that snowcloak case it's 3 people, good luck kicking that. So since I can't kick that, I should take a 30 minute penalty because players can't grasp basics from playing the game itself?

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Originally Posted by winsock

For the sake of humoring you, even if we were make assumptions about people's situations, your augment just doesn't make any sense for the scenario you're giving. I could see a 'lazy player' scenario where a tank drops tank stance, isnt paying enough attention cause they're watching netflix, and loses hate on a boss. Maybe a healer misses a heal, etc. But not being able to hold threat on "anything" as a result of being lazy? Tanking isn't THAT hard lol. You're making quite the stretch.

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If tanking isn't THAT hard, why is your example having so much trouble? Hmm? HMM? How do they little idea what they are doing by 70, even if they didn't do a single dungeon with it? He had to kill things in the open world, right? What did he spam Butcher Block until someone felt sorry for him and carried him through fates?

The patience window drops lower and lower the higher and farther in content you go with your job. I don't think any reasonable person expects some great tank that pulls 3.5k dps or anything. Just a tank that does it's role, a tank. Keeps threat. Like how you expect a healer to heal, and a dps to do dps.

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Originally Posted by winsock

so they leveled PLD and WAR w/o dungeons.
At one point in time, this person decided to give tanking another go and as expected, was performing terribly and was given a hard time for not understanding how to tank. This person has given up tanking again.

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So...this player knew he didn't know how to tank dungeons even though he had tanks at max level. Then went into dungeons at max level on tank and performed poorly. I wonder why that is?

Did this player look at guides first to help themselves? Did they maybe queue for a low level dungeon first, like say Satasha, since they knew they would need practice?

Did they attempt to help themselves at all by learning basic dungeon tank stuff from any source at all? Guides? Friends? Anything?

I mean you said it yourself in this very post:

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Originally Posted by winsock

Tanking isn't THAT hard lol.

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So why did this person you knew in ARR not know even just the basics of tanking of at least holding hate at max level? Maybe because he knew he didn't know, yet was too lazy to do a bit of research or practice first?

If someone is getting near the back end of the game like level 50+ and doesn't understand the basics (just basics, nothing more) of their role/job then it is THEIR responsibility to research and/or practice it, and that is the problem with some people in this game. They refuse to be responsible for themselves.

They go into 50+ content and expect everyone else to put up with them not even knowing the basics of their role, but won't put in any effort on their own to learn or accept help when it is given. They just expect everyone else to put in a lot of effort to help them by possibly carrying them by having to stressfully perform two roles (like a healer having to tank and heal the dungeon) , but they won't put any effort in to help themselves.

Laziness.

If a player wants to explain if they have an outlier situation they can do so. So I am not saying every situation is people being lazy, but it is easy to tell laziness when you get ignored when trying to help, or told to be quiet (albeit not that nicely), or the infamous "it's my sub I play how I want", those are all indicators they are just being lazy and don't want to learn.

So like I said it is easy to see when Laziness is a factor sometimes and levels do indicate that laziness might be part of it. They've been playing a long time yet don't know basics, whose fault is that? Who else can they blame besides themselves?

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Originally Posted by winsock

You don't know the other players situation, so don't make accusations based on your feelings about them, make them based on actual evidence.

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That isn't even what I am saying. So you've missed the point entirely.

What I am saying is level means they've been playing a certain amount of time, barring jump potions, which means they should have had ample time to practice, research, and help themselves learn. Remember how you said tanking isn't that hard? Then why at PLD65 and DRK70 that tank is unable to use Flash even once? If it is so easy then why did they not read the tooltip and use it when they saw they were losing hate? Why did they ignore me when I pointed out Flash would help them keep hate?

As for jump potions it is the responsibility of the jump potion user to research the job they jumped to have at least a minimal basic understanding of it.

That tank I had I tried to help them and got ignored. That is the only evidence I need to know they are lazy and don't care. I know there was no communication barrier since they made idle chit chat with one of the DPS at one point, yet never acknowledged me. Their levels along with not knowing basics indicate laziness, but I didn't only go with that.

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Originally Posted by winsock

Level is not a data-point you can use to determine that.
For example, John Smith is Level 70 everything. How good is he at tanking? It's just not a question you can answer with level.

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Yeah it can, since levels shows a basis for how long a player has been playing this game therefore someone with all tanks at 70 should know at least the basics, IE: holding hate. If they know nothing else then whatever, but the basic of a tank role is to hold hate which the game expects you to start learning by level 15 with your first dungeon. Level 15.

So a PLD at 65 who doesn't know how to use Flash, again I ask, what excuse is there?

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Originally Posted by winsock

But not being able to hold threat on "anything" as a result of being lazy? Tanking isn't THAT hard lol. You're making quite the stretch.

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No, not knowing what Flash is on a level 65 PLD is lazy. Since they obviously didn't take the time to learn what Flash is or does or research how to use it to hold AoE hate.

I don't know what you were trying to humour me with, but you made little sense with that ramble. I am thinking after that you simply aren't understanding my point.


Also I find it humorous the person who said "just imagine the people you're playing with are 3 year olds" is telling me I am making quite the stretch lol

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Originally Posted by winsock

However, tanking would prove very challenging for someone who has little idea what they are doing.

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Who is to blame if that level 65 PLD has little idea what they are doing?

A. Me, because I didn't drop what I was doing immediately and spend my time to type out a full explanation to a level 65 PLD on how to hold hate with Flash which is a basic that tanks would start learning at level 15

B. The game's fault, despite the novice hall actually having a tutorial on how to use Flash to obtain AoE hate and having tooltips which explain how abilities work.

C. That level 65 PLD's friends/FC/Linkshell

D. The level 65 PLD


Personal responsibility is a thing.

I think I have to reiterate I am talking about just basics, like a tank holding hate at 50+, that's it, I don't care what else they do. This is not some kind of tirade about optimization. Just. Basics.

A lot of it comes from simple scapegoating....

You see this a lot in MOBA's. People will spout out the common gems like; "its just a game" or "Its not a job". Which in turn makes certain people believe its okay to mess up time and time again. So to those scapegoating; I pay money to play this game, expect me to get emotional or critically logical, if you happen to repeat a mistake. We need to things to change; people need to stop scapegoating, and others need to stop defending said behavior.

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Originally Posted by SavageCipher

I pay money to play this game

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They also pay money play how they please, you're free get angry they're free to not listen & get angry back. If you don't like it's very simple find some friends/ or a fairly active FC & play with people you want to play with instead of pugs if ticks you off that much or learn to relax.. we had bad time in LoTA other day B kept messing up we all remain calm "except 1 who quit" wiped 4 times before B-team finally did job cleaning up bombs & keeping their vaago to their side
& we got past it.. so you need get some highly active friends or get some patience.

People are allowed to be bad at game, it's just a game, not a job, theres no money on line no championships it's not ranked so relax.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

They also pay money play how they please, you're free get angry they're free to not listen & get angry back. If you don't like it's very simple find some friends/ or a fairly active FC & play with people you want to play with instead of pugs if ticks you off that much or learn to relax.. we had bad time in LoTA other day B kept messing up we all remain calm "except 1 who quit" wiped 4 times before B-team finally did job cleaning up bombs & keeping their vaago to their side
& we got past it.. so you need get some highly active friends or get some patience.

People are allowed to be bad at game, it's just a game, not a job, theres no money on line no championships it's not ranked so relax.

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Did you read the part about scapegoating?

Stop scapegoating.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

People are allowed to be bad at game, it's just a game, not a job, theres no money on line no championships it's not ranked so relax.

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Yes. People can be bad at the game. On their own time.

When your bad playing forces others to slow down though, and I don't mean "LUL IT TOOK 5 SECONDS" I mean having a 45 minute Skalla run, people gotta step up.

Also...

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

If you don't like it's very simple find some friends/ or a fairly active FC & play with people you want to play with

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Stop. Using. This. Yes that can work, but wanna know a funny kicker? You need 3+ people who fit the roles needed that want to do that at the same time. Just like how you're saying we can't force people to press more than 1 button, I can't force people to run content with me in the first place. When the stars allign it's perfect, but that's not always going to happen. And even more to my point, I don't even expect good play. I expect basics. If by 50 dungeons you don't know what a combo is, you shouldn't be playing with random people who just want to get through the dungeon. If by the time you're at Skalla and you can't cast Fire, you probably shouldn't be going with random people. If by the time you're in Emanation EX you can't press Cure II on a WHM, you probably shouldn't be playing with randoms.

Basics. If the game can be completed without them, it might as well start playing itself.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Yeah it can, since levels shows a basis for how long a player has been playing this game therefore someone with all tanks at 70 should know at least the basics, IE: holding hate.

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John has a level 70 tank.
How much experience does he have tanking dungeons?
^ you dont know, because level is not an indication of this.
It's possible he has no dungeon tanking experience as you can get a tank to 70 without tanking dungeons.

Is it so much to ask for actual evidence before you go accusing people of things?
You're going on a witch hunt:
"This lady owns a black cat and a broom! Definitely a witch!"
"This guy has shift eyes! Definitely a murderer!"
"That person wasn't hired for the job! Definitely discrimination of some sort!"

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Originally Posted by winsock

John has a level 70 tank.

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John made it to 70 on a tank doing 0 group content.
John decides he wants to do a dungeon
John decides he wants to do a dungeon under "expert."
John doesn't know what he's doing.
John can't do the expert dungeon Properly.
John claims it's not his fault he jumped into late game content without knowing a thing about what he's doing.
John is the problem.

Tl;Dr, John can do a lower leveled dungeon first to get experience if he really doesn't know how to tank.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Tl;Dr, John can do a lower leveled dungeon first to get experience if he really doesn't know how to tank.

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We can make up stories about john all day. Do you have evidence that john is being lazy? That is the entire point of my discussion with Miste. Dont accuse people without evidence.

for example:
John just hit level 70.
He wants to do a dungeon.
Since he's level 70, he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon from the list.
You queue for expert roulette and John is your tank. He's in over his head, but didnt know beforehand that he would be.
Without evidence, his group begins to accuse him of being lazy. He should have known better, trash tank, etc.
John never tanks again.
The next day, a dps from his party complains about the lack of tanks.

Is it really john just being lazy? Or did he just not know any better? If you don't know his circumstances, don't judge him as if you know

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Originally Posted by winsock

John has a level 70 tank.
How much experience does he have tanking dungeons?
^ you dont know, because level is not an indication of this.
It's possible he has no dungeon tanking experience as you can get a tank to 70 without tanking dungeons.

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So, if John has zero experience tanking, why would he queue into a higher level dungeon having zero idea what he’s doing? And then why would he expect to be given a free pass because he didn’t level his tanks through dungeons, but wanted to do higher level dungeons on a job he has no experience on because “it’s just a game” and he wanted to roll a tank?

Something isn’t right with your scenario.

If John has a level 70 tank, has no idea how to play said level 70 tank, but queues into a level 70 dungeon and basically just says “YOLO it’s just a game”, why should John get a free pass for subjecting 3 other random people to his inevitably poor performance? And why aren’t the other 3 allowed to hold him accountable? You roll a tank in level 70 content, people are going to assume you know the bare basics. When you show that you don’t, that’s no one’s fault but yours for not properly trying to learn and instead just “going with it”.

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Originally Posted by winsock

We can make up stories about john all day. Do you have evidence that john is being lazy? That is the entire point of my discussion with Miste. Dont accuse people without evidence.

for example:
John just hit level 70.
He wants to do a dungeon.
Since he's level 70, he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon from the list.
You queue for expert roulette and John is your tank. He's in over his head, but didnt know beforehand that he would be.
Without evidence, his group begins to accuse him of being lazy. He should have known better, trash tank, etc.
John never tanks again.
The next day, a dps from his party complains about the lack of tanks.

Is it really john just being lazy? Or did he just not know any better? If you don't know his circumstances, don't judge him as if you know

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Yes, he is lazy. Because he queued into a level 70 dungeon with zero idea what he’s supposed to be doing, and didn’t try to practice at lower dungeons or with friends first. Or even look up a simple guide, although practice makes perfect with a guide as just a companion/reference to use during his practice. Instead, he subjected randoms to an inevitably poor performance because, why practice this job that I’m going to roll in level-cap content?

Just want to point out that just because of the supposed ignorance of others behind John’s actual tanking skill (and the reasons for why his tanking skill is, for lack of a more eloquent term, garbage), doesn’t mean his behavior is right or excused. Stop making excuses.

On a somewhat related note this entire thread makes me feel less patient with new/underperforming players.

To the people trying to defend poor play... what is your goal? Is it to make those of us who have even the most basic of standards somehow more sympathetic towards these players? If so, in my case at least, you've failed.

I had an ice mage in my latest Shisui run. The healer caught on to what was happening a bit quicker than I did (I had other players effects turned off) but after both the healer and I tried to get this guy to do something resembling a rotation up towards the second boss a vote kick option popped up. I took it. The blm in question hadn't been the most gracious person, he mostly just responded with 'lol' to our advice, but I feel like before beating this dead horse in this thread and the many like it I would have given the guy a pass unless the healer really pushed the issue.

I don't think the healer (or myself) did anything wrong. We offered advice and it wasn't taken. At the same time I am losing patience with these people and I think part of that is the knowledge that there are actual experienced players in this game who feel it's perfectly acceptable to ice mage your way to an O4S clear.

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Originally Posted by winsock

John has a level 70 tank.
How much experience does he have tanking dungeons?
^ you dont know, because level is not an indication of this.
It's possible he has no dungeon tanking experience as you can get a tank to 70 without tanking dungeons.

Is it so much to ask for actual evidence before you go accusing people of things?
You're going on a witch hunt:
"This lady owns a black cat and a broom! Definitely a witch!"
"This guy has shift eyes! Definitely a murderer!"
"That person wasn't hired for the job! Definitely discrimination of some sort!"

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Crazy witch cat lazy isn't abruptly forcing three random people to deal with her inexperience raising a dog when she decided, on a whim, to try owning one.

Therein lies the flaw with your analogy. People have a right to reasonable expectations when they queue into content. If John, "never tanked a dungeon before" tank decides to queue into level 70 dungeon and has absolutely no idea what he's doing, the fault remains his for essentially wasting the time of three unsuspecting players who he didn't give a damn about when he queued. And were John in my party, I would show him the door once five minutes elapsed.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I don't think the healer (or myself) did anything wrong. We offered advice and it wasn't taken. At the same time I am losing patience with these people and I think part of that is the knowledge that there are actual experienced players in this game who feel it's perfectly acceptable to ice mage your way to an O4S clear.

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I wouldn't feel bad because these types of players certain don't. They expect us to carry them because "it's just a game" yet if we shared their attitude nothing would ever get done. I'l kick DPS who refuse nowadays. I'm just tired of carrying lazy players who refuse to respond to advice or get their panties all twisted because you dared to tell them their rotation isn't the best.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

So, if John has zero...

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The entire point of "John" is that you don't know his circumstances and that you should not treat him as if you do.

He is a 70 Tank and decides he wants to do a dungeon. He is level 70, so he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon.

At the end of the day, "John's" circumstances could be anything, just like a party member you might meet in a pug. The bottom line is that if you don't know what their circumstances are it pretty unfair of you to:
* Dream up their circumstances in your imagination
* Treat that dream as if it is reality
* Then hold them accountable to the transgressions they made in your imagination

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

People have a right to reasonable expectations when they queue into content.

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A reasonable expectation is for someone to only be accused of laziness with actual evidence of laziness, no? Is that not reasonable?

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Originally Posted by winsock

He is a 70 Tank and decides he wants to do a dungeon. He is level 70, so he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon.

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This doesn't make any sense. Who would honestly make that jump?

This is a far reach even by forum standards.

Oh god, I used the word standards, I am elitist scum now.

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Originally Posted by winsock

The entire point of "John" is that you don't know his circumstances and that you should not treat him as if you do.

He is a 70 Tank and decides he wants to do a dungeon. He is level 70, so he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon.

At the end of the day, "John's" circumstances could be anything, just like a party member you might meet in a pug. The bottom line is that if you don't know what their circumstances are it pretty unfair of you to:
* Dream up their circumstances in your imagination
* Treat that dream as if it is reality
* Then hold them accountable to the transgressions they made in your imagination

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That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party. Stop making excuses for these people. They obviously don’t care enough about the random players in their party to try and not perform poorly, so why should you care to make excuses for them?

There is a base expectation when someone queues into level 70 content on a level 70 job, they know how to play said level 70 job—I’m not even talking about at an optimized level, but at a basic level: tanks tank, hold aggro, use cooldowns; healers heal, maybe weave in some DPS; DPS use DPS skills, single-target and AOE when appropriate. When they fail to meet that very basic expectation, it is no one’s fault but theirs. John doesn’t know how to tank but decides to tank and does poorly? That’s his fault for not trying to actually learn before he subjected random people to his play.

Inb4 you say: “You shouldn’t have expectations in DF”—that’s fine, but there are still minimum expectations there.
—Tanks are expected to know how to tank (aggro management, cooldown management)
—Healers are expected to know how to heal (when and where to heal, and which type to use [AOE or Single Target])
—DPS are expected to know how to DPS (a very basic 1-2-3 rotation, and when to use single-target or AOE skills)

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Originally Posted by Vstarstruck

It really should not take much thought to face monsters away from the party because of cleaves, or you need the monsters be packed tightly together for some aoes have a small radius. Can you explain more in detail why tank scares you? maybe we can think of putting something in the game to encourage more tanks because we all know there is a shortage of them, and every bit helps.

I mean it is why I made this thread:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...able-to-use-DF.

Maybe you be fine with tanking if there was something you could interact with to show you. I do not think the current hall of novice really shows what people expect you to do when our ilevel 310 or w/e

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It's not that the role scares me, I just suck at it lol. I don't want to put other people through my bad play. So I just avoid playing tank in this game in general. Tanking has never clicked with me. Usually I play DPS in all mmos I play. However, I discovered I sucked playing DPS in this game which I figured that out without a parser fyi, SSS revealed that I cant do dps rotations very well. Even after posting a vid and trying out all the advice I was given, I just did not improve at all so I'm like welp, not playing DPS anymore (and I was playing RDM no less, a class apparently that is so easy no one should be having issues with so I felt rather stupid and discouraged). Now imagine how bad I would be as a tank where I know I suck so badly that I would rather I get kicked. lmao yeah it would be horrible and no way am I gonna put other people through that. I'm too considerate for that.

WHM for me is the best job in the world, I feel relaxed, its comfy af and all I have to do is heal and then throw rocks at things when no one needs healed. And if no one dies during the run or the tank is not taking damage because of damage mitigation tools that I like to use (Divine Benison and holy are nice for this :3 ) then I know I'm succeeding :3

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Originally Posted by winsock

The entire point of "John" is that you don't know his circumstances and that you should not treat him as if you do.

He is a 70 Tank and decides he wants to do a dungeon. He is level 70, so he reasons he should pick a level 70 dungeon.

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Lets spin this a bit, shall we?

John wants to play football/soccer with his friends. John has never heard the rules of football. John does not read up on the rules and refuses to listen to the friends who know the game explain the rules, and keeps grabbing the ball with his hands to carry it around, while not being a goalkeeper. If criticised, he responds with "its just a game relax.".
In this situation, John would soon find himself shunned by his friends, rightfully so. Being new is not a bad thing, you can communicate this. But at least being familiar with the rules of a game if you engage to play with others should be the very bottom line, regardless of circumstances.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

This doesn't make any sense. Who would honestly make that jump?

This is a far reach even by forum standards.

Oh god, I used the word standards, I am elitist scum now.

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See other tanks make it look easy. Figure it can't be that hard. They try it on level and faceplant.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra

They also pay money play how they please, you're free get angry they're free to not listen & get angry back. If you don't like it's very simple find some friends/ or a fairly active FC & play with people you want to play with instead of pugs if ticks you off that much or learn to relax.. .

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The flipside is also true. When you're in group content, you're not playing on your own time, there's 3/7/23 other people there. It's not an unreasonable request that people at least try and put a modicum of effort into it. Making mistakes and learning from them are fine, but it's not those players that many of us have a problem with, it's people that can't even do the basics of their class, and refuse to learn.

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Originally Posted by Miste

They go into 50+ content and expect everyone else to put up with them not even knowing the basics of their role, but won't put in any effort on their own to learn or accept help when it is given. They just expect everyone else to put in a lot of effort to help them by possibly carrying them by having to stressfully perform two roles (like a healer having to tank and heal the dungeon) , but they won't put any effort in to help themselves.

Laziness.

If a player wants to explain if they have an outlier situation they can do so. So I am not saying every situation is people being lazy, but it is easy to tell laziness when you get ignored when trying to help, or told to be quiet (albeit not that nicely), or the infamous "it's my sub I play how I want", those are all indicators they are just being lazy and don't want to learn.

So like I said it is easy to see when Laziness is a factor sometimes and levels do indicate that laziness might be part of it. They've been playing a long time yet don't know basics, whose fault is that? Who else can they blame besides themselves?

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This reminded me of a time I got into an in-progress 1/3 Antitower as a monk, before PotD was a thing. The BLM and WHM were there from the beginning, trying to tell an unreceptive PLD how to hold aggro. It was very apparent when even single target became a gong show on the second boss. I don't know how it went while I wasn't there, but it only took me saying something along the lines of "If you flash 2 or 3 times on pull, it can help with aggro" before they had a temper tantrum and rage quit on the last boss.

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All in all, I'm not saying everyone that doesn't know the basics will act like this, and it does make you wonder, but it's not unreasonable to expect people to know the basics (and using Flash/Unleash/Overpower is very basic in FF tank 101). And it certainly not an outlandish thought to think "They'll at least know to use aggro-generating skills" at such a point, especially when in higher level content.

On the note of preconceptions, it's pretty easy to avoid it by saying something. If you happen to be the player learning or know one, all one needs to do is say something like "this is my first time doing X" and people will probably be more receptive to helping out.

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Originally Posted by winsock

The entire point of "John" is that you don't know his circumstances and that you should not treat him as if you do.

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I'll be blunt. I don't care. His circumstances could be anything from "I used a jump potion" to "my cat walked across the keyboard several times and somehow it made me level 70." Frankly, I'd have more faith in the cat than some people...

Regardless, all I know is his selfish decision to queue into content he clearly has no business attempting wastes my time. In fact, I had such a tank in Rabanastre last week. She insisted on main tanking yet had no idea how to use CDs—even using Hallowed Ground as the off tank. When asked multiple times to use CDs for tank busters she got angry because "they're not available." She forced myself and my co-healer to compensate because she couldn't be bothered to learn how to actually tank before queuing into max level content.

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Originally Posted by winsock

A reasonable expectation is for someone to only be accused of laziness with actual evidence of laziness, no? Is that not reasonable?

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Would you rather I say incompetence? Either way, if you can't perform your role at level 70 yet queue into content at that level, you're wasting everyone else's time.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

That doesn’t excuse his behavior as being incredibly inconsiderate of the other three people he gets in his party.

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I disagree. We are pushing this conversation more and more into the abstract (and honestly i think this is becoming a pretty interesting discussion as it becomes more abstract). To push it further, do circumstances matter at all?

John is a level 70 tank and queues for sastasha. It's his first time tanking a dungeon.
Jane is a level 15 tank and queues for sastasha. It's her first time tanking a dungeon.

For all intents and purposes, assume they are equally terrible. How should they be treated?

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Originally Posted by winsock

I disagree. We are pushing this conversation more and more into the abstract (and honestly i think this is becoming a pretty interesting discussion as it becomes more abstract). To push it further, do circumstances matter at all?

John is a level 70 tank and queues for sastasha. It's his first time tanking a dungeon.
Jane is a level 15 tank and queues for sastasha. It's her first time tanking a dungeon.

For all intents and purposes, assume they are equally terrible. How should they be treated?

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They should be assisted. Because at least they are doing entry-level content and trying to learn. I would give props to a max-level player (or even a player that was level 50/60 and that jumped a job) for queuing into an entry-level piece of group content and trying to build up their skill on a job that way.

But. There is a huge difference from this scenario you’re now presenting, and your previous one of a level 70 tank that doesn’t know how to tank queuing into level 70 content wanting to learn, and assuming people would be just as accommodating. People generally are more willing to help a level 15 player learn (or even a higher level player that is running level 15 content learn) than helping a level 70 player learn in max-level content.