Yoshi-P on Character Growth

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Fixed that for you.

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That doesn't really answer my question, though. Say two BLM's have two similar builds, but BLM A has a max damage of 3k while the other can hit for 15k damage. Why is it acceptable to have a subpar skill?

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That doesn't really answer my question, though. Say two BLM's have two similar builds, but BLM A has a max damage of 3k while the other can hit for 15k damage. Why is it acceptable to have a subpar skill?

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I'm not going to answer a question that is answered in the post right above yours. Also, why are the numbers so different? Nobody has suggested such a thing.

If BLM A is doing 3k damage and BLM B is doing 15k damage because of a choice they made in gear of equivalent level or skill choices (aka build), then the developers have done something wrong.


Here, you might also find this useful:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I don't think Blade and Soul's skill tree allocation is all that great of an example on how people just tunnel the absolute "best" or whatever. On my Summoner, I had a PVP build, an AOE build, a PVE group content build and a "trying to duo stuff with my boyfriend that we probably shouldn't be duoing" build. In addition, you could do earth-based Sunflower build or wind-based Bees build once elemental accessories and legendary weapons came out (though nobody did the white legendary except hardcore PVPers lol an admitted failure in equal opportunity design).

Same thing with WoW. Right now on my Frost Death Knight, I have two possible builds I'm testing that are parsing almost exactly the same. One involves rotating two moves and an auto-attack talent to keep a constant 30% haste buff up, and the other involves stockpiling resource (kinda like XI's TP-building) to channel a ridiculously strong move for as long as I can. Both builds are actually parsing about the same, with the haste one being better on a dummy but difficult to upkeep in heavy movement fights, whereas the channel move suffers less from movement but isn't as high theoretical DPS given perfect conditions. Of note, the channel build is also a lot more straightforward and easy to use.

It's also worth remarking that both of those builds actually prioritize different secondary stats, so there's customization to be had there, too. "Illusion of choice" arguments really should just be renamed "illusion of an actual argument" arguments, jeez.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I'm not going to answer a question that is answered in the post right above yours. Also, why are the numbers so different? Nobody has suggested such a thing.

If BLM A is doing 3k damage and BLM B is doing 15k damage because of a choice they made in gear of equivalent level or skill choices (aka build), then the developers have done something wrong.

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Let's say BLM A has a trait that reduces the cast time for spells 40%, but also reduces their power by 60%, with an occasional fire 4 proc and fire 3 procs without penalty or cast time, while BLM B has the reverse, a trait that doubles cast time and roots the caster, but triples the power, with an additional proc that guarantees a crit.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That doesn't really answer my question, though. Say two BLM's have two similar builds, but BLM A has a max damage of 3k while the other can hit for 15k damage. Why is it acceptable to have a subpar skill?

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Because the game is designed and supported by the care bears. If you look at a class/job and test this class under these circumstances and conditions you will find an average number, 3k based on your example.Even so the class/job can do magnificently more dmg, 15k (again based on your example) doesn't mean you HAVE too. And that's the problem that appears, most players look at an example of average play style and think that's all they gotta do. None of them understands that if you wanna play in a good static and beat endgame content, that you need to advanced further than just the average expectations. However since after 3 years of crying people finally got yoshi-p so far, that he acknowledges a average player can't and won't be able to experience endgame content, it is time to change the whole model. As the latest patches have shown as well as the future, it is now understood that mediocre performance is something we can look forward too. That's the reason it is acceptable and you won't be able to change anyone's mindset, it's up to you from now on, to adjust to the mediocre play style and not the bad players adjusting to your above average performances.

Well, I was trying to point out how subpar builds are, but phone limitations prevented me from painting the full scenario. Still, your response Lunafaye pretty much sums up why I don't want builds around.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Let's say BLM A has a trait that reduces the cast time for spells 40%, but also reduces their power by 60%, with an occasional fire 4 proc and fire 3 procs without penalty or cast time, while BLM B has the reverse, a trait that doubles cast time and roots the caster, but triples the power, with an additional proc that guarantees a crit.

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This is kind of a loaded question. What is BLM A's spell speed, crit, det? BLM B's? What is the % of these proc rates that you are being fairly vague in mentioning? What impact does crit as a stat weight have not just on rate, but power? How significantly would spell speed affect the GCD?

Obviously, these questions might be a good answer as to WHY the devs don't fool with talent choices, but the fact remains that there are variables not being taken into consideration with your hypothetical here.

Here, let me give you a better example of what people are actually looking for.

BLM A pushes 5000 DPS

BLM B pushes 4950 DPS

Why is it acceptable for BLM B to pick a subpar skill?


Answer: Because they can both clear the content just fine.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Here, let me give you a better example of what people are actually looking for.

BLM A pushes 5000 DPS

BLM B pushes 4950 DPS

Why is it acceptable for BLM B to pick a subpar skill?


Answer: Because they can both clear the content just fine.

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That's correct, but only after the game got adjusted. With all the nerfs and welfare gear that's being thrown at them, they are now able to clear the content just fine. If these changes would have not been made, we would be back right here in the forums, people screaming and crying about changes because they can't play as they want or beat content. Good try tho...

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Here, let me give you a better example of what people are actually looking for.

BLM A pushes 5000 DPS

BLM B pushes 4950 DPS

Why is it acceptable for BLM B to pick a subpar skill?


Answer: Because they can both clear the content just fine.

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And to elaborate, in good choice systems, BLM B's rotation might be more forgiving, or they might provide additional utility to the party in some way. This is analogous to the differences between DRG and MNK, the former of which does less personal DPS but has greater raid utility.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

That's correct, but only after the game got adjusted. With all the nerfs and welfare gear that's being thrown at them, they are now able to clear the content just fine. If these changes would have not been made, we would be back right here in the forums, people screaming and crying about changes because they can't play as they want or beat content. Good try tho...

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You get a staw man! And you get a straw man! Everyone gets a straw man!

No, BLM A and B are both players of equivalent skill. They can both clear the content at the same time. Because a less than 1% loss of dps isn't (shouldn't be) significant enough to prevent them from winning.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

And to elaborate, in good choice systems, BLM B's rotation might be more forgiving, or they might provide additional utility to the party in some way. This is analogous to the differences between DRG and MNK, the former of which does less personal DPS but has greater raid utility.

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And what utility would that be? Maybe I missed something here. Oh wait... APOC, now I get it.

Tbf, 50 dps isn't very indicative of a different build, but more like an unlucky lack of crits for B, or a very lucky string of crits for A.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Tbf, 50 dps isn't very indicative of a different build, but more like an unlucky lack of crits for B, or a very lucky string of crits for A.

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That's because a build isn't determined in DPS, it's determined in how it plays. The DPS is simply the end result.

You can't look at two different DPS numbers and determine that one is using a different build.

A dps number of that small a difference would mean that B's build would be better than A's if it has more support in it, which would make it more optimal than A.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

A dps number of that small a difference would mean that B's build would be better than A's if it has more support in it, which would make it more optimal than A.

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Never said it provided anything else. All I said is that they both do similar DPS.

I was going off Alahra's assumption earlier.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Tbf, 50 dps isn't very indicative of a different build, but more like an unlucky lack of crits for B, or a very lucky string of crits for A.

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We all know and love how BRD was changed in HW with Wanderer's Minuet.
What if BLM had traits to make the opposite change. Reducing damage to supress casting time. And as a result, this new BLM does 5% less than your turret BLM. Will you still say that they don't play diffrently ?
Heck, for all we know, the whole turret BRD could be a build...

Oh, by the way, the first sentence was a joke :p

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

And what utility would that be? Maybe I missed something here. Oh wait... APOC, now I get it.

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This was a hypothetical example. It wasn't based on the classes as they exist now—but if there were to exist player options of these sorts, one avenue is for one build to have slightly lower personal DPS but have other advantages, and utility is one way to differentiate.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

A dps number of that small a difference would mean that B's build would be better than A's if it has more support in it, which would make it more optimal than A.

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It would depend on the type of utility, sure. If the DPS value were that close, it would be more likely that B's utility would be something more support oriented and not DPS-related (i.e., things like Goad or Dragon Kick).

Folks are getting very hung up on numbers when these are all hypothetical examples intended to be illustrative of the kind of choice peoples would like to see.

Again, consider DRG and MNK. They're close in DPS but one has more utility than the other. Is the choice between them an illusion?

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Again, consider DRG and MNK. They're close in DPS but one has more utility than the other. Is the choice between them an illusion?

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No, of course not !
MNK is the better choice...oh, wait, if you have a BRD and MCH, DRG piercing debuff can be useful, so DRG is a better choice, and you want a BRD for Requiem if you have BLM...but if you don't have a DRK and face a magical foe, then Dragon Kick is invaluable...so MNK is the best choice...or is that NIN ? No, NIN is only really good if you already have a WAR for Eye...but you might end up with a PLD...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, of course not !
MNK is the better choice...oh, wait, if you have a BRD and MCH, DRG piercing debuff can be useful, so DRG is a better choice, and you want a BRD for Requiem if you have BLM...but if you don't have a DRK and face a magical foe, then Dragon Kick is invaluable...so MNK is the best choice...or is that NIN ? No, NIN is only really good if you already have a WAR for Eye...but you might end up with a PLD...

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That's essentially the kind of thing I'm getting at, yes. Character choices (of which jobs are the main example FFXIV has right now) should have implications for group building and playstyle. The game can support that kind of thing because it already does. That is not to say that it is easy to balance (WoW is a great case study in how difficult it can be), which is part of why I would like to see only relatively simple choices to start that would be easier to balance in practice, with perhaps the room for expansion later.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

The game can support that kind of thing because it already does.

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The game can support different setup because it already does.
The game can support someone not being optimally geared for content, because it already does.
The game can support someone not being optimally skilled for content, because it already does.
The game can support the small minority of people who want real challenge, and on-the-edge gear, setup, and skills, because it already does.
And all those things works fine together...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The game can support different setup because it already does.
The game can support someone not being optimally geared for content, because it already does.
The game can support someone not being optimally skilled for content, because it already does.
The game can support the small minority of people who want real challenge, and on-the-edge gear, setup, and skills, because it already does.
And all those things works fine together...

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I'm not really sure what you're getting at—but there's a common argument against providing character choices in FFXIV that basically says it wouldn't work in the game. That's what I was referring to.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

I'm not really sure what you're getting at—but there's a common argument against providing character choices in FFXIV that basically says it wouldn't work in the game. That's what I was referring to.

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Yes, and I pointed out that that argument is just hollow. Any discrimination people are fearing can already be in the game. Yet, it mostly doesn't prevent people from doing what content they want.
(Except Gordias, but Yoshi-P himself acknoledged that Gordias was really flawed)

From my standpoint I see it like this... First off, we could do with some more difficult open world content for certain. I won't deny that. Ever. We need dedicated areas for said things. Those whom are leveling or progressing through story don't need their tails ridden by a monster that can kill them in one glance. There is always a time and a place for things. Secondly, populations rise and fall in MMOs all the time. WOW, FFXI, LotRO, etc are all victims of this. You can please some of the people some of the time but you cannot please everyone all the time.

It is, in effect, impossible to do so. Yoshida knows this and he even states there are tons of things he wants to put in but can't. I am 100% certain he would love to cater to everyone but that is never going to happen. Let's be realistic here, hardly anyone has the time to dedicate to what they play now(adults at least with jobs, kids, etc.). Making things rougher is not the solution to everything. The current gear system allows new players to catch up with relative ease and veterans with obligations the ability to relax while progressing. It is rather beautiful in its simplicity actually. I know it is frustrating to log on to what seems like the same old, same old. Trust me I've not had a full set of ilvl current gear since Ironworks because of how tedious it is. But I also know the value of the system and appreciate it for what it is. Just my take on it.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

For me, no matter how much my DPS goes up, if the way I'm playing has not changed, I don't feel the impact of my gear. It has to change how I play for it to have an impact. If my spells are going off faster, if one spell is improved over the others, if my DoTs are improved over my other spells. These are changes in how I play the game. These are changes I can feel. I don't feel my DPS going up in the current system, I can only see it.

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If you want to have a different playstyle, FF enables you to change to whichever job you want and be geared to do whatever content you want in a reasonable time.
And for now that's all you get in differentiation.

I know, people can demand everything without having to think it really through, but..
Let's just look at the dev team.. we don't know the actual size, but what we know is this: They were able to create 3 jobs for one expansion + 5 skills for existing classes. Followed by months of tweaking. And people where or are still upset with a lot of things.

How long do you think they'll need to expand the skills of all 13 jobs to have at least 2-3 different "playstyles" each?
Even if they want to do something like this (it's not like they can do everything they want to), they would have to aim for 5.0 or 6.0, maybe?! Ye, present that to the people who say "I AM BORED NOOOOW"...
They're lost (for now) anyway, any such deep system change created withing a timespan of only 3-6 months can only end up in failure.
To put that lot of work into a new system, which is (possible) harder to manage and which is no guaranted success is a high risk, so there have to be drastic loss of players before that. Because if people want drastic changes like 1.0->2.0, then there has to be circumstances like in that time.

Also I personally rather want new jobs to differintiate playstyle more than to get different templates for the existing classes. That kinda suits the old FF job style.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

When is support by reason, it does. Reasons for players to know what the truth of the server population and activity is, comes from the need to know how healthy their game is.
Reasons for SE to keep numbers secret are all driven by their need to make the game look good, they are logically much more inclined to hide or alter numbers.

It is reasonable then to think that Players censuses are much closer to the reality than anything SE will ever give us.

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That's not entirely logical. Some larger companies will outsource certain information to gain knowledge that they themselves do not have time to obtain themselves. Also, looking at subscriptions would require someone to look at personal information of consumers which is generally frowned upon unless absolutely necessary. Hence the fudging of numbers based on other statistics.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

And what utility would that be? Maybe I missed something here. Oh wait... APOC, now I get it.

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You forgot about virus and eye for an eye... Don't judge me I've saved many the run by having eye for an eye on my hotbar.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

If you want to have a different playstyle, FF enables you to change to whichever job you want and be geared to do whatever content you want in a reasonable time.
And for now that's all you get in differentiation.


I know, people can demand everything without having to think it really through, but..
Let's just look at the dev team.. we don't know the actual size, but what we know is this: They were able to create 3 jobs for one expansion + 5 skills for existing classes. Followed by months of tweaking. And people where or are still upset with a lot of things.

How long do you think they'll need to expand the skills of all 13 jobs to have at least 2-3 different "playstyles" each?
Even if they want to do something like this (it's not like they can do everything they want to), they would have to aim for 5.0 or 6.0, maybe?! Ye, present that to the people who say "I AM BORED NOOOOW"...
They're lost (for now) anyway, any such deep system change created withing a timespan of only 3-6 months can only end up in failure.
To put that lot of work into a new system, which is (possible) harder to manage and which is no guaranted success is a high risk, so there have to be drastic loss of players before that. Because if people want drastic changes like 1.0->2.0, then there has to be circumstances like in that time.

Also I personally rather want new jobs to differintiate playstyle more than to get different templates for the existing classes. That kinda suits the old FF job style.

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I think that creating an entire new class would take longer than making some of the minor changes to existing systems that I have been proposing.

People also are not "demanding" things, they are expressing their input, so that the dev team has the knowledge to design a game that caters to their playerbase.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

The thing is, small changes to skills can make the class play more fluidly for you. For example, I want to play a Black Mage, I had a lot of fun with it in 2.x. However, I hate enochian and ley lines. I could talent away into something that plays a little bit more fun, so that I can enjoy BLM. It won't be my raid job (SMN), but I could play it in expert roulette and extreme primals for fun.

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Okay, I get how toggle skills can be annoying. The way I approached Black Mage when I leveled it to 60 was this(for the funsies ;P). I grabbed the gear I had for it and went straight for the highest dungeon I had access to. I knew Ley Lines increased spell speed and knew Enochian was required for Blizzard IV's use so by extension Fire IV's too. I read no guide nor watched one and asked no advice. I did four dungeons until "I" thought I had it worked out then asked. Turns out I was right about the rotation and guess what? Learning it was the fun part :)

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Would it be crazy if I said Yoshi-P was right on this particular subject?

Why not come up with ways to make the game more fun and engaging while not steering away from the core aspects of the game? We don't need elemental wheels, we don't need to a piece of content for over a year to get one pair of gloves.

I won't lie, I would like to see the game get spiced up more, but we do not need to drastically alter the game to make it happen. There are ways to make changes that does not tear down the foundation of the game.

After seeing some amazing things WoW: Legion has done, I would definitely like to see ideas from here make it's way to FFXIV.

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See? This man gets it!

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Originally Posted by Seiryuukishi

Okay, I get how toggle skills can be annoying. The way I approached Black Mage when I leveled it to 60 was this(for the funsies ;P). I grabbed the gear I had for it and went straight for the highest dungeon I had access to. I knew Ley Lines increased spell speed and knew Enochian was required for Blizzard IV's use so by extension Fire IV's too. I read no guide nor watched one and asked no advice. I did four dungeons until "I" thought I had it worked out then asked. Turns out I was right about the rotation and guess what? Learning it was the fun part :)

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I am glad you enjoy it :) I've got the rotation down, and have mine at 60 and geared. I just do not find it fun, and would rather create a build that doesn't have those in the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Disappointing but not shocking.
This game's been generally playing it safe from 2.0 forwards.

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What did you expect? 1.0 was a financial catastrophe of near Biblical proportions. Of course Square Enix wants to play it safe, especially in this world economy. You can argue they spend thousands upon millions of dollars(or Yen, etc.) on Fan Fests and other things but advertisements cost so does trying to keep a populace of an MMO happy(generally speaking). 2.0 and 3.0 did not have to be made. The board could have flat out told Yoshida no. But they didn't and I am sure they had limits in place for what he could and could not do for the sake of not repeating 1.0's failure. He may be director/producer but that does not mean he has full authority. Someone else signs his paycheck.

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Originally Posted by Seiryuukishi

What did you expect? 1.0 was a financial catastrophe of near Biblical proportions. Of course Square Enix wants to play it safe, especially in this world economy. You can argue they spend thousands upon millions of dollars(or Yen, etc.) on Fan Fests and other things but advertisements cost so does trying to keep a populace of an MMO happy(generally speaking).

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This is true. It's way too easy to take risks with other companies' money. In the case of S-E, I'm satisfied that they're not taking needless risks to please people who will never be satisfied.

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Originally Posted by Seiryuukishi

What did you expect? 1.0 was a financial catastrophe of near Biblical proportions. Of course Square Enix wants to play it safe, especially in this world economy. You can argue they spend thousands upon millions of dollars(or Yen, etc.) on Fan Fests and other things but advertisements cost so does trying to keep a populace of an MMO happy(generally speaking). 2.0 and 3.0 did not have to be made. The board could have flat out told Yoshida no. But they didn't and I am sure they had limits in place for what he could and could not do for the sake of not repeating 1.0's failure. He may be director/producer but that does not mean he has full authority. Someone else signs his paycheck.

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Totally true. But responding by leaping to the other extreme isn't exactly the wisest of decisions. Especially regarding long term interest.
By removing elemental weaknesses, keeping jobs on a stringent holy trinity system, and keeping gear on railroad style progression, they've basically written themselves in a corner when it comes to variety for gameplay. And without strong variety, people start to get bored. I love a lot about this game, but there's something to be said for the lack of deeper character customization.

Char grow, in my opinion, is also more Itemlevel. Power balanching, feel the ultimate ying yang effect between negative stats and god ones for your class. And the satisfying moment if you see: you had choosen whisely.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Totally true. But responding by leaping to the other extreme isn't exactly the wisest of decisions. Especially regarding long term interest.
By removing elemental weaknesses, keeping jobs on a stringent holy trinity system, and keeping gear on railroad style progression, they've basically written themselves in a corner when it comes to variety for gameplay. And without strong variety, people start to get bored. I love a lot about this game, but there's something to be said for the lack of deeper character customization.

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That is also true. By and large I think it is mostly them keeping with two rules: First, keep with the current market trends for MMOs. Makes sense from a financial standpoint. Little risk and greater chance for reward if you play your cards right. Second, don't repeat the mistakes of the past whether they be your own or someone else's. There is much to be learned from history and that holds true for businesses too. I don't deny that this game I love so much can improve. Everything can. But I don't want improvement at the cost of the potential loss of it altogether or loss of friends in game because they can no longer invest what little time they had to begin with.

With risk comes reward but who can say when the risk is greater than the reward? These are things they have to work out on a development basis. Again, Yoshida has been quoted many times as saying there are tons of things he wants to implement but can't. At least he wants to, you know? That has to count for something.

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Originally Posted by Seiryuukishi

That is also true. By and large I think it is mostly them keeping with two rules: First, keep with the current market trends for MMOs. Makes sense from a financial standpoint. Little risk and greater chance for reward if you play your cards right. Second, don't repeat the mistakes of the past whether they be your own or someone else's. There is much to be learned from history and that holds true for businesses too.

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Quite right.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

I think that creating an entire new class would take longer than making some of the minor changes to existing systems that I have been proposing.

People also are not "demanding" things, they are expressing their input, so that the dev team has the knowledge to design a game that caters to their playerbase.

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You would be surprised. To use Dragoon, they are sitting on 27 abilities. A skill tree effectively doubles or triples that number as they now have to balance around the possibility of all those additional perks people may choose. Comparatively, a new job is static. They will already have an idea of what role it will serve, thus they needs only design skills around that one idea and balance them accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

You would be surprised. To use Dragoon, they are sitting on 27 abilities. A skill tree effectively doubles or triples that number as they now have to balance around the possibility of all those additional perks people may choose. Comparatively, a new job is static. They will already have an idea of what role it will serve, thus they needs only design skills around that one idea and balance them accordingly.

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By the devs' own admissions, it seems like they're looking into pruning abilities and rotations with the next expansion, though. You're right though, considering what a disaster Astrologian has been to balance I'm not entirely sure I'd trust the XIV dev team with something as work-intensive as talent trees, lol.