Dedicated Thread for Patch 2.55 Story Discussion/Spoilers

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Originally Posted by Balipu

stuff

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I know you're not threatening to not play 3.0, but aren't the people saying that they should "stay dead" doing the same thing?

I think it's extremely likely that all the Scions are alive since we didn't actually see them die. So no, them "coming back" wouldn't make FFXIV a comic book.

Nanamo is a different issue since we actually see her die and her death scene was certainly a lot more emotional than the "death scenes" of the Scions. But it's certainly not outside of the realm of possibility that Nanamo was poisoned with a drug that only made her seem dead. If true though, I don't think she was in on the plan.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Reading through the responses I'd say no, but literally nobody who said plothole in this thread ellaborated on what were the holes. Can you be the first to do so? Please?

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I imagine we both know that people make up plotholes to justify why they consider a story bad. Some people have never heard of suspension of disbelief.

I still remember someone telling me that FFVII was riddled with plotholes including the player never knowing who Cloud's dad is.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Reading through the responses I'd say no, but literally nobody who said plothole in this thread ellaborated on what were the holes. Can you be the first to do so? Please?

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actually it is elaborated on a few times but I'll point out in my first post on here that wasnt just about Yugiri's hair

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

okay first off. we don't know that Nanamo is dead. her body was not examined while we were present and, it is not confirmed by anyone we can trust(this should send up big red flags right there). we can assume she might be but the way they left it, it is very possible they wanted you and all present at the banquet to believe she is. we know that Wilfred and Teledji are dead. it is assumed that the Ilberd is likely dead(though I really hope he isn't cause I wanna murder him). and the impression I got was that Lolorito orchistrating the majority of it, although I think he might have just taken advantage of the situaton with Teledji dead.

it is never confirmed that any of the scions are dead either only assumed.

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and my second post

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

~snip~

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Nanamo is a different issue since we actually see her die and her death scene was certainly a lot more emotional than the "death scenes" of the Scions. But it's certainly not outside of the realm of possibility that Nanamo was poisoned with a drug that only made her seem dead. If true though, I don't think she was in on the plan.

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we don't see her die, what we see is about the same thing as going into spasms and passing out. nobody touches her with you present and I still suspect that is because it would be much harder to fake it if they felt a pulse or her breathing. the only word you have of her death comes from people you can't trust.

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Originally Posted by MsQuiltALot

I finished about 4 hoursafter the servers came up, but just found this thread...

They got us.... They have pulled out every emotional trick in the book. They even made some of us hate the writers for the storyline!

WOW! Is all I can say. Think about it. We ARE after that point, the dejected Warrior of Light trudging through the snow and thinking about how much we have lost - just like in the trailer. The whole thing was orchestrated to put us in a MOOD - not to give us choices or more things that were playable. I think they succeeded.

For those complaining about the fact that they couldn't participate, and only watch events unfold around them... That's the whole point. Sometimes things happen you can't influence or change. Not participating only amplified the feelings of anger and frustration, depression and loss.

Sure, there is always a possibility that things will not be what they seem, but for now, they've created the perfect mood for the expansion.

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Thing is it feels cheap precisely because your character was in a position where you could change what happend, many many times. Yet all your character does is basically ignore the 10 million signs. Hence why its cheap story writing.

Why does your character just believe suspected traitors? Does what your treasured friends say to you mean nothing?
Do your personally recruited people mean nothing to you?

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Originally Posted by KingOfCheese

To be honest, I think the position of our character in this scenario is kind of brilliant when you think about it.

Until that point, you were a living legend that made a sport of slaying gods. You had no rival and you felt there was nothing you couldn't do. In short, you've become overconfident in your abilities. Now, for the first time since your journey began, you were powerless. All your trials relied on your skills and courage, which you excelled at. This time your enemy was playing smart and made you vulnerable (You were seen without your weapon, and all your abilities are attached to it). You are a warrior, not a player in the game of politics. The biggest threat to you are schemers, for they do not play with the confrontational rules you're used to. Sure, I thought "Fight me, godsdamnit! Fight me!" the entire time, but I bet that is what the player character was feeling as well. From that point of view, being in a helpless position is something I welcome.

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So the moral of all this is that without the blessing of the light we are powerless against bad writing and being locked into place via plotholing. Tyvm, but I already knew that.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I know you're not threatening to not play 3.0, but aren't the people saying that they should "stay dead" doing the same thing?
Nah. I won't quit if they all turn out alive but will stay disappointed. And seeing how much they added to the story I think we could do well with only Tataru, Yugiri, Cid and the Leveilleurs so even though I love Y'shtola, I don't think the game would go to hell without her.
I think it's extremely likely that all the Scions are alive since we didn't actually see them die. So no, them "coming back" wouldn't make FFXIV a comic book.
No we didn't see them die, that's true, but they didn't stay behind to catch up with us later, either. We last saw Papalymo and Yda winning but the army got passed them AND the portcullis. Y'shtola very explicitly preapaired to drop the ceiling on her own head. Like I said, Nanamo and at least one Scion should stay dead.
Nanamo is a different issue since we actually see her die and her death scene was certainly a lot more emotional than the "death scenes" of the Scions. But it's certainly not outside of the realm of possibility that Nanamo was poisoned with a drug that only made her seem dead. If true though, I don't think she was in on the plan.
Or what if she was in on the plan to drink the poison and die? As others have pointed out, her expression and her gestures during the private audience were highly suspicious. Also she is likely not so dense as to believe that dissolving the monarchy would prevent the monetarists from making a power play. She likely planned for Teledji becomming overconfident and showing his hands too soon, which he did. This might also redeem Kan-E and Merlwyb. Remember, we didn't see the end of the tea party where she revealed her intention to abdicate the throne. Merlwyb almost stayed but remembered that this was all according to Nanamo's plan and left. Yes, this is my theory and i'm gonna stick to it.


I imagine we both know that people make up plotholes to justify why they consider a story bad. Some people have never heard of suspension of disbelief.

I still remember someone telling me that FFVII was riddled with plotholes including the player never knowing who Cloud's dad is.

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Yeah, plot hole is this magic word people throw around. Like how everyone is a n00b who I can beat and everyone who I can't has no life. Or at least not a girlfriend.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

actually it is elaborated on a few times but I'll point out in my first post on here that wasnt just about Yugiri's hair

and my second post



we don't see her die, what we see is about the same thing as going into spasms and passing out. nobody touches her with you present and I still suspect that is because it would be much harder to fake it if they felt a pulse or her breathing. the only word you have of her death comes from people you can't trust.

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Yes well this isn't what a plot hole is. A plot hole would be for Teledji for showing up in Ishgard after the banquett.
There not being an autopsy is not a plot hole at all.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Reading through the responses I'd say no, but literally nobody who said plothole in this thread ellaborated on what were the holes. Can you be the first to do so? Please?

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The plotholes are pretty obvious. Also quite a few have been mentioned already, have you read all the replies in here?

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

snip

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You are one of the few people in here that doesnt actually bother to use spoiler tags to cover important facts. I think that says enough about your opinion on plotholes.
But since im weak to a fault when it comes to trolling, ill bite.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I think it's extremely likely that all the Scions are alive since we didn't actually see them die. So no, them "coming back" wouldn't make FFXIV a comic book.

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Dont particular care for them dying myself. The plotholes here is that all of them died when they really shouldnt have.
Portculis could have been dropped from the other side. Overdrives could have been used in a none self-destructive way.
Who ever heard of someone in the history of gaming using a holy when they werent immune to its effects themselves?
= scion plotholes.
Ah yes and one more: Hydaelyn suddenly talking to Minfilia. Hydaelyn tends to warn people beforehand, not afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Nanamo is a different issue since we actually see her die and her death scene was certainly a lot more emotional than the "death scenes" of the Scions. But it's certainly not outside of the realm of possibility that Nanamo was poisoned with a drug that only made her seem dead. If true though, I don't think she was in on the plan.

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The plotholes here are: you track down one of your favored Crystal Braves, yet easily believe the words of a suspected Brave who just happened to be there. You just happen to get a personal invite from the Sultana. Odd, considering she should have expected you to be at the feast. Actually, she should have been there herself.
Also your character just sits there passively as she 'dies'.

When the brass blades etc come, it makes no sense to just come with them. Weve had betrayals, we fought the empire and what not. We can see where this is going, and with his timing he was likely responsible for all of it.
What, you say we had no weapon? Plothole. Why on earth would I not have my weapon with me. All the other leaders had their weapons at the feast.
Besides, you might recall Yshtola using holy without using her wand. Im sure that as an actual white mage instead of a conjurer (which is Yshtolas class, when did she learn holy exactly?I guess they made her a white mage suddenly, ah another plothole) I could have done the same.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I imagine we both know that people make up plotholes to justify why they consider a story bad. Some people have never heard of suspension of disbelief.

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No theres actually a lot of plotholes here. Suspension of disbelief doesnt work if its too hard to believe based on what the story gives you to work with.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I still remember someone telling me that FFVII was riddled with plotholes including the player never knowing who Cloud's dad is.

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Kind of a hyperbole example.

i found this conversation interesting.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I know you're not threatening to not play 3.0, but aren't the people saying that they should "stay dead" doing the same thing?
Nah. I won't quit if they all turn out alive but will stay disappointed. And seeing how much they added to the story I think we could do well with only Tataru, Yugiri, Cid and the Leveilleurs so even though I love Y'shtola, I don't think the game would go to hell without her.
I'm still not sure if any of them died, though Y'shtola and Thancred are probably closer to the death flag. Yda and papalymo are probably alive and kicking, being caught in your own Final heaven isn't really life threatening...or is that why we do a backflip away after we do it?
I think it's extremely likely that all the Scions are alive since we didn't actually see them die. So no, them "coming back" wouldn't make FFXIV a comic book.
No we didn't see them die, that's true, but they didn't stay behind to catch up with us later, either. We last saw Papalymo and Yda winning but the army got passed them AND the portcullis. Y'shtola very explicitly preapaired to drop the ceiling on her own head. Like I said, Nanamo and at least one Scion should stay dead.
i agree that the Sultana is dead. less so that any of the scions are, people dying to flash of white light is pretty common for cheating death.
Nanamo is a different issue since we actually see her die and her death scene was certainly a lot more emotional than the "death scenes" of the Scions. But it's certainly not outside of the realm of possibility that Nanamo was poisoned with a drug that only made her seem dead. If true though, I don't think she was in on the plan.
Or what if she was in on the plan to drink the poison and die? As others have pointed out, her expression and her gestures during the private audience were highly suspicious. Also she is likely not so dense as to believe that dissolving the monarchy would prevent the monetarists from making a power play. She likely planned for Teledji becomming overconfident and showing his hands too soon, which he did. This might also redeem Kan-E and Merlwyb. Remember, we didn't see the end of the tea party where she revealed her intention to abdicate the throne. Merlwyb almost stayed but remembered that this was all according to Nanamo's plan and left. Yes, this is my theory and i'm gonna stick to it.
I was going to argue about why wasn't Raubahn in on it, and why Nanamo is suddenly so scheming, though i do get that a monetarist power grab is the perfect setup for a revolution done by the people.
I imagine we both know that people make up plotholes to justify why they consider a story bad. Some people have never heard of suspension of disbelief.

I still remember someone telling me that FFVII was riddled with plotholes including the player never knowing who Cloud's dad is.

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You are one of the few people in here that doesnt actually bother to use spoiler tags to cover important facts. I think that says enough about your opinion on plotholes.

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the topic has the word spoilers in it, if your going to be going into this topic, you have to expect it.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

The plotholes are pretty obvious. Also quite a few have been mentioned already, have you read all the replies in here?

Yes, but none of them are actually plot holes. Something being suggested but not explicitly shown is not a plot hole. Our character being passive and unresponsive like alll the time in the game (remember Ifrit? We were unrestrained and armed but still didn't just waltz out of the Amalja camp. We only drew weapons when Ifrit showed up) is not a plot hole. You may not like the story but it did follow the same logic from beginning to end.

You are one of the few people in here that doesnt actually bother to use spoiler tags to cover important facts. I think that says enough about your opinion on plotholes.

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What? What does that even mean? Why do you think there is a colleration between use of spoiler tags and opinion on plot holes?
You cannot fully grasp what logical connections are. I think that says enough about your opinion on plotholes.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

i
the topic has the word spoilers in it, if your going to be going into this topic, you have to expect it.

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Thats true. But near everyone else was still using them. Out of courtesy for the topic, and others. To have someone suddenly comment on ''lol they are using plotholes do they even know wats a plothole'' shows less courtesy towards the topic, and bespeaks of perhaps less of an interest in this topic.
IE: he didnt actually read to see if what we talk about really are plotholes.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

What? What does that even mean? Why do you think there is a colleration between use of spoiler tags and opinion on plot holes?
You cannot fully grasp what logical connections are. I think that says enough about your opinion on plotholes.

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Your troll opinion is duly noted. Please read the threads replies previous to your ''could someone please tell me what the plotholes are??? you havent yet???''.
It is there you will find your answer.


Also, on the topic of logical connections:

-You ask what the plotholes are. Second part of that post specifies no plotholes have been mentioned.
- However plotholes (valid and invalid plotholes) have been mentioned before.
- Implies that your question is not an honest one.
- Your current post only replies to a gip, and not to the actual arguments in a post.

logical conclusion: you are a troll.
result: ''Your troll opinion is duly noted''


Logic.

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Originally Posted by Wildsprite

actually it is elaborated on a few times but I'll point out in my first post on here that wasnt just about Yugiri's hair

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Um, none of those are plot holes.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Your troll opinion is duly noted. Please read the threads replies previous to your ''could someone please tell me what the plotholes are??? you havent yet???''.
It is there you will find your answer.


Also, on the topic of logical connections:

-You ask what the plotholes are. Second part of that post specifies no plotholes have been mentioned.
- However plotholes (valid and invalid plotholes) have been mentioned before.
- Implies that your question is not an honest one.
- Your current post only replies to a gip, and not to the actual arguments in a post.

logical conclusion: you are a troll.
result: ''Your troll opinion is duly noted''


Logic.

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Yes well if you edit back the list of plot holes into a message I replied to ten minutes after the reply, I can't take them into account can I? But since you so nicely replied, I will attempt the same.

The plotholes here is that all of them died when they really shouldnt have. Source? We never really saw any of them die on screen. I wish at least one of them to die, but like I said we never saw anything.
Portculis could have been dropped from the other side. Overdrives could have been used in a none self-destructive way. Well the army got passed the dropped portcullis anyway and caught up to us even with Papalymo and Yda holding the line, so I don't think simply dropping the portcullis would have worked. By overdrive I guess you mean limit breaks. I didn't see Yda suffer any damage due to doing that AOE final heaven that frankly, the player has no acces to.
Who ever heard of someone in the history of gaming using a holy when they werent immune to its effects themselves? Where did you read that Y'shtola used holy? It was never said. Besides it wasn't the spell itself that killed her, if she is dead, but the stones that fell due to the explosion.
Ah yes and one more: Hydaelyn suddenly talking to Minfilia. Hydaelyn tends to warn people beforehand, not afterwards. Well first off we don't know what enabled her to speak again. Maybe she was still gagged by something untill that specific moment. Second, we cannot know what she said to Minfilia. It seems less of a warning than a command based on Minfilia's reaction.
The plotholes here are: you track down one of your favored Crystal Braves, yet easily believe the words of a suspected Brave who just happened to be there. He was on patroll and well you didn't have any particular suspects at that point.
You just happen to get a personal invite from the Sultana. Odd, considering she should have expected you to be at the feast. Actually, she should have been there herself. So you think it is wrong not to suspect that the Sultana is up to no good. I know I said she likely planned her suicide, but you have to be really paranoid to suspect Nanamo of anything evil.
Also your character just sits there passively as she 'dies'. Well storyline deaths cannot be averted by ingame mechanics. If that were so, all Elder Scrolls characters would just eat rocks to stay alive. Aerith says hello.

When the brass blades etc come, it makes no sense to just come with them. Weve had betrayals, we fought the empire and what not. We can see where this is going, and with his timing he was likely responsible for all of it. Sure, but are you willing to just cut down the most well connected person in Eorzea and run out of the bedchamber of the dead Sultana with corpses following your trail?
What, you say we had no weapon? Plothole. Why on earth would I not have my weapon with me. All the other leaders had their weapons at the feast. Well yes, that is true. But we were escorted into the bedchamber of the Sultana. I can totally imagine a need to remove your weapons when you enter. And at the very least, the guards would have disarmed you after placing you into custody. I personally think the guards leaving you armed would have been a plot hole.
Besides, you might recall Yshtola using holy without using her wand. Im sure that as an actual white mage instead of a conjurer (which is Yshtolas class, when did she learn holy exactly?I guess they made her a white mage suddenly, ah another plothole) I could have done the same. Well NPC-s don't always adher to the class system. You know like Merlwyb dual wielding pistols, which is frankly impossible and will remain such even during 3.0 Y'shtola is classified as a conjurer, but she always had abilities that adventurers like us do not have. In 1.0 she deflected bullets with her hands, conjured up shields and created duplicates of herself.

Anything else?

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

You are one of the few people in here that doesnt actually bother to use spoiler tags to cover important facts. I think that says enough about your opinion on plotholes.

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Like someone else already mentioned, the topic title already says that there are spoilers inside, so adding spoiler tags to our posts is simply redundant.

As for your "plot-holes" they aren't plot-holes, just things you don't like:

Two Scions and 1 portculis is a better barrier than 1 portculis and no Scions.
You can't prove that the non self-destructive overdrive would be more powerful.
Your theory that people that use Holy in games are immune to its effects is simply ridiculous. I haven't done any PvP in FFXIV but I'm sure that WHMs can damage other WHMs with Holy.
Hydaelyn talking to Minfilia is not a plothole and we don't even know what she was told.

At best you could say that your character was naive to easily trust in the Brave, at the time you had no idea how big the conspiracy was so there was no reason to distrust every single Brave of the 1st and 3rd.
Your character getting a personal invite from the Sultanna isn't a plot hole at all. Did you even watch the cutscene? Nanamo had reasons to meet with your character, even if you choose to believe that they sucked.
What exactly could our character do to save her in the few seconds it took for her to die? They're not immune to going into shock and freezing.

Attacking the authorities at the scene of the crime right after it was commited in your presence isn't exactly the best way to prove your innocence.
Your character not having his weapon with him is an explanation given by people here, not the game, so that's also not a plothole.
The Scions having special powers isn't exactly something new.

I guess in the end, maybe we don't have the same definition of what a plot-hole is. To me a plot-hole is something impossible happening. Of all the "plot-holes" you mentioned, the best case you have is your character trusting that Brave, but even that has a reasonable explanation. It's not impossible, it's not even implausible.

If you dedicated as much energy in finding a reasonable explanation as you do coming up with plot-holes you probably wouldn't have so much problems with the plot.

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Originally Posted by Balipu

[/B]
Portculis could have been dropped from the other side. Overdrives could have been used in a none self-destructive way. [B]Well the army got passed the dropped portcullis anyway and caught up to us even with Papalymo and Yda holding the line, so I don't think simply dropping the portcullis would have worked.

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We don't know if they got past the portculis or entered from a different point.

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Originally Posted by PLD_Danny1989

I was yelling at the screen when that happened.

Seriously I was yelling "KILL THEM RAUBAHN! KILL THEM!!"

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Yeah, same!

Spoiler!!!

That little WORM got what he asked for. Seriously! Did you think you could do this and make everyone else look like the evil do'ers and not pay for it? /spit on Teledji's corpse.

Wasn't impressed at all

I hated the fact that our characters couldnt fight back, couldnt help Raubahn and even worse got reduced to running around like something out of a benny hill sketch. Hope Nanamo still lives and the rest of the scions. Was nice seeing Brennan again. Can't say I liked the asspull of Alphinaud being saved by his sister. Couldve at least let our characters kill any crystal braves we encounter in the world.

Would've been more appropriate https://youtu.be/x5sQL7q_IOI

They will all come back, with unic style and clothing. 1.0 gear was lame.

Ok, so, here is my theory.

First off: Telediji was innocent. An insufferable prick, but still innocent. What about his plans on Omega Weapon, though? Was it only his idea, or were the Monetarist as a whole in that plan?

Secondly: his death was probably plotted by Lolorito, because Telediji's ambition didn't sit well with him. Remember the discussion regarding the Doman refugees back in 2.2? They were at odds, and it is possible that Telediji's plans were not good for Lolorito. I wouldn't find it hard to imagine rivalry even within the Syndicate. So what Lolorito did, was letting Telediji continue his schemes while somehow letting the Scions notice his treachery. It WAS strange that we immediately noticed (literally after one patch) that he was up to something, and in one dialogue it was mentioned that Telediji showed the "care of a drunk pissing in the wind" (if I remember correctly the quote). That was, most probably, the moment when we should have noticed something was amiss. It is possible it was, in fact, Lolorito's doing all along to frame Telediji.

Lastly: Lolorito's expression at the end, which is what prompted me to write this on the forum in the first place. Together with Tataru's face at the end of her short quest-line, I just can't understand what's up with that. The dialogue makes it seem like he didn't want to put this plan into motion, rather than him being frustrated by something which didn't go well. So there are three options, if I am right: 1) Lolorito didn't want to actually kill Telediji, but Raubahn's rampage (caused by Telediji's own attitude and the circumstances) made him a casualty. 2) His intentions did not include the death of Nanamo, whom could still have been useful to him - so Telediji is now a hindrance and a possible problem, so he had to get rid of him. 3) Whatever the hand-maiden was ordered to do and then report, it was not shown on-screen and is not related - so it's back to square one.

Actually, you know what? No. Scrap all that. New theory.

Tataru was in cahoots with Lolorito and planned to become the new Sultana.
Lolorito started willingly considering all that he had to gain, but later he regretted being manipulated like this. Yet he had no choice when the plan was at that stage - his only choice was to talk to the Warrior of Light, but Telediji (madly in love with Tataru) used him/her to frame him/her into Nanamo's murder. So yes, he's no longer innocent in this theory - and he lied to Raubahn to avoid exposing Tataru.
Now, now, I know what y'all are saying. "But Ilberd said he did that!". Well guess what. Ilberd is Tataru's bodyguard (also madly in love with her). So yeah, he did that, while co-operating with Telediji to move the Brass Blades. All the Crystal Braves were always under Telediji's paycheck and Ilberd's control, too, so they had the power to make all of this almost effortlessly.

She was never striving to become more useful and trying other classes, she actually wanted to scheme without others checking on her. When we did, she was sidetracking us. Come on, she ain't that stupid. Or weak. She feigned being attacked by a Morbol (not madly in love with her btw) while she was mining, when she could have just used the pick to kill it and avoid the AoE. It would have taken a while, but she had the gear to survive this. And she easily used "Place" to make it seem like that Carbuncle ran away from the mouse. Guys, seriously: she had a pink-dyed Cashmere robe. That's a level freaking 50. How could she have -ever- lost against a lousy mouse.

The Scions were, for Tataru, something to hide behind while the gears started turning. Now that Ilberd and Telediji used the fabled Warrior of Light as well, the rest of the Scions became useless: their death was just necessary to tie possible loose ends and all.

Why did she suggest going to Ishgard? Well, that's an easy one: Ilberd and Lolorito (this one still finding a way out of this ofc) need time to make preparations for her, they need a specific political situation - they can't just crown everyone now, can they. Why with Alphinaud and the Warrior of Light? Obvious: she will hide again behind them, claiming to have no choice (Warrior of light+Alphinaud > Poor Tataru) and that she would have been imprisoned anyway considering her relationship with the Scions.

But THEN she would turn against us, and with the help of Ilberd and Lolorito she' bring us to justice. Ul'dah would understand that it was not the Scions' fault as a whole, only the Alphinaud's and the Warrior of Light's, and since there is no heir or relative of royal blood and that she would be seen as a savior/avenger, she should be the new Sultana.

It all makes sense. You know it does.

You'll see.

Finished yesterday and...

while I am happy for all the changes and cut scenes and effort on delivering a "woah" anime-ish trying to be serious conclusion I have rolled eyes and was thinking, ok, everyone is saying the ending is great, when does the greatness start?

I really hope our character to take the advice of "learn to say no" seriously! our chars can have a couple of quest on hold when we are going to a frigging party that we earned after so much DF fail!!! but well, that's plot for you I can accept that our characters have some kind of addiction do do minor quests

Then... we are mute in all cut scenes, no word on, "well, there was the maid that served the wine, I am not the only suspect you see?"

ok, plot, our char was shocked by witnessing a loli die, ok...

Then we had a hint that *insert name of guy that loved loli* is going to teach us Berserker or something analog job later when he and we return to Ala Mihgo or something, I liked that, what I didn't like was that no one, not even the super fiends of him of other nations, you know, the ones that fought with him when meteor fell? tried to help him and just ran, so plot could tell who really killed loli with no one besides him and the scions notice...

Then the saint seiya run...
Scions: "you keep running, we stay here!!!"
You: Hum... you know, we could just run, tank me all the dudes and I will flare their arse off... I frigging killed a dragon the size this place!
Scions: nope, we better close the door, with us on the other side and you keep running, we can do this
You: but...
Scions: hush! remember you dont talk!
You: oh yeah, plot

Dunno, I I had like 12 year old and was new to anime plots, I would be all "whoa"

Sill, I wish our character to do more other than "run, you are the chosen one!"

Also, hope Tataru gets to be a powerhouse, I was really happy when she was trying to be arcanist, I was sad that they more or less kept the status quo with her

Thats another anime trope rith there, they dont seem to move things much from characters as they become icons, like superheroes in comics, change it too much and people gets mad thats why there are a lot of reebots, anime tend to keep the status quo with their chatactes, sure, plot progress but is very very rare to see a character change besides of power level or, being alive.

Well, I derailed my rant, then again I enjoyed and apreciate the ending, feelt good, but wih the pieces placed I think stuff could have beed better

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

Actually, you know what? No. Scrap all that. New theory.

Tataru was in cahoots with Lolorito and planned to become the new Sultana.
Lolorito started willingly considering all that he had to gain, but later he regretted being manipulated like this. Yet he had no choice when the plan was at that stage - his only choice was to talk to the Warrior of Light, but Telediji (madly in love with Tataru) used him/her to frame him/her into Nanamo's murder. So yes, he's no longer innocent in this theory - and he lied to Raubahn to avoid exposing Tataru.
Now, now, I know what y'all are saying. "But Ilberd said he did that!". Well guess what. Ilberd is Tataru's bodyguard (also madly in love with her). So yeah, he did that, while co-operating with Telediji to move the Brass Blades. All the Crystal Braves were always under Telediji's paycheck and Ilberd's control, too, so they had the power to make all of this almost effortlessly.

She was never striving to become more useful and trying other classes, she actually wanted to scheme without others checking on her. When we did, she was sidetracking us. Come on, she ain't that stupid. Or weak. She feigned being attacked by a Morbol (not madly in love with her btw) while she was mining, when she could have just used the pick to kill it and avoid the AoE. It would have taken a while, but she had the gear to survive this. And she easily used "Place" to make it seem like that Carbuncle ran away from the mouse. Guys, seriously: she had a pink-dyed Cashmere robe. That's a level freaking 50. How could she have -ever- lost against a lousy mouse.

The Scions were, for Tataru, something to hide behind while the gears started turning. Now that Ilberd and Telediji used the fabled Warrior of Light as well, the rest of the Scions became useless: their death was just necessary to tie possible loose ends and all.

Why did she suggest going to Ishgard? Well, that's an easy one: Ilberd and Lolorito (this one still finding a way out of this ofc) need time to make preparations for her, they need a specific political situation - they can't just crown everyone now, can they. Why with Alphinaud and the Warrior of Light? Obvious: she will hide again behind them, claiming to have no choice (Warrior of light+Alphinaud > Poor Tataru) and that she would have been imprisoned anyway considering her relationship with the Scions.

But THEN she would turn against us, and with the help of Ilberd and Lolorito she' bring us to justice. Ul'dah would understand that it was not the Scions' fault as a whole, only the Alphinaud's and the Warrior of Light's, and since there is no heir or relative of royal blood and that she would be seen as a savior/avenger, she should be the new Sultana.

It all makes sense. You know it does.

You'll see.

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I don't think that's quite what happened but I like your idea, they should hire you :D

People keep complaining that we have no agency as a character but that's technically the point.

Midgardsormr, Gerolt, Rowena, Gaius, and Ysayle/Iceheart mock us for this on more than one occasion. We're a "puppet devoid of actual choice" because we follow the Scions and Hydaelyn's orders. They keep trying to make us think for ourselves - to act on our own accord.

I think this entire scenario is a perfect example of that. We're given no actual agency on purpose. We're characterized not to fight back because we think of the Scions and Hydaelyn and what they'd want us to do. We don't fight back because we know that it'd start an all out war. It'd give the Monetarists exactly what they'd want or need. Lolorito and Teledji didn't know we were effectively a puppet for Minfilia, they just assumed we were a warrior/hero who would fight to protect the people dear to them. But when our friends demanded that we, the Warrior of Light, stand down and run - of course we do it, without question.

Midgardsormr mocks us for this following our escape from Ul'dah as well. He reiterates that yet again we just "followed orders". Yeah - we followed every single order given to us in the plotline for this story. We did everything that was asked of us without questioning it, continuing to do what we've done since 2.0 because it has suited us well for so long. The Scions wouldn't lead us astray. Alphinaud wouldn't lead us astray. Momodi wouldn't lead us astray. Hydaelyn may not be here, but if we were treading dangerous ground, surely she'd let us know. They've all kept us on the straight and narrow. They have all the answers we don't have. We're a hero because of them.

Of course we'd follow those orders. What could possibly go wrong?

And I think that was the entire point of the storyline. At some point you have to be your own person because blindly following the orders of everyone around us may have given us glory once, but when it came right down to it - it also led us right into the jaws of a trap that cost us absolutely everything.

/10characters

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Originally Posted by ColdestHeaven

Lastly: Lolorito's expression at the end, which is what prompted me to write this on the forum in the first place. Together with Tataru's face at the end of her short quest-line, I just can't understand what's up with that. The dialogue makes it seem like he didn't want to put this plan into motion, rather than him being frustrated by something which didn't go well. So there are three options, if I am right: 1) Lolorito didn't want to actually kill Telediji, but Raubahn's rampage (caused by Telediji's own attitude and the circumstances) made him a casualty. 2) His intentions did not include the death of Nanamo, whom could still have been useful to him - so Telediji is now a hindrance and a possible problem, so he had to get rid of him. 3) Whatever the hand-maiden was ordered to do and then report, it was not shown on-screen and is not related - so it's back to square one.

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or 4)

Tataru is Nanamo. Lolorito is angry because he discovered he poisoned a fake Nanamo.

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Originally Posted by ColorOfSakura

People keep complaining that we have no agency as a character but that's technically the point.

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"It's not bad, it's artistic."

First thing to do when trying to express something, is showing multiple faces of it.
In FF13, first we have to follow corridors, then we can explore Pulse.
In Portal, first we have to follow the experiment, then we wander elsewhere.
In FF14, first the player avatar does nothing, then he still does nothing.

I haven't seen if anyone commented on my random theory, but in regards to Hydelaen's sudden return...

I'm wondering if Midgardsormr's breaking our link with her had something to do with that. The last time we heard her talk was fighting Lahabrea, as I recall, after she had weakened herself defending us from Ultima and then just before helping us break Thancred free. I'm wondering if Midgardsormr shattering the crystals we had gathered gave Hydelaen enough of a boost to start drawing on aether again to restore some power (the readings from the scholar), and therefore be able to once again talk to Minfillia.

Random question, does the trader differ depending on your starting city?

Is it really necessary for us to mark spoiler dedicated to the events of 2.55?

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

I haven't seen if anyone commented on my random theory, but in regards to Hydelaen's sudden return...

I'm wondering if Midgardsormr's breaking our link with her had something to do with that. The last time we heard her talk was fighting Lahabrea, as I recall, after she had weakened herself defending us from Ultima and then just before helping us break Thancred free. I'm wondering if Midgardsormr shattering the crystals we had gathered gave Hydelaen enough of a boost to start drawing on aether again to restore some power (the readings from the scholar), and therefore be able to once again talk to Minfillia.

Random question, does the trader differ depending on your starting city?

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Yes the trader does differ.

My theory behind the Hydaelyn disappearance is that she really isn't 'gone' but doesn't have enough strength to talk to us/help us as much as before, because we have effectively been draining her aether into Zodiark (the dark blue/purple crystal, Lahabrea mentions their deity (and we know that the crystals are deities, as Hydaelyn is one) is shattered (and we all know that crystals shatter). What's more is that all the attuning crystals for the elemental Primals are bluish/purple iirc, I found this odd at first because shouldn't Ifrit's crystal be red/orange since he is a fire Primal? Well what if those attuning crystals are actually shattered pieces of Zodiark himself? And by using them to summon Elemental Primals from the aether, it is functioning as a tool that is converting Hydaelyn's Aether (so to speak) into Zodiark's Aether (again so to speak), just as we have the Blade of Light that does the exact opposite. The only Primal whose crystal isn't that color is Odin's however if you have completed Urth's Font you learn that Odin--the person on the horse in particular--isn't really a Primal, and that it is the sword that is cursed and absorbing the Aether from the Shroud, not from any kind of crystal, Even Bahamut's heart in Coil is of that purplish color crystal.

So yeah that is my hypothesis on what is going on in terms of the Mother Crystal (Hydaelyn) and more than likely the Father Crystal (Zodiark).

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Yes the trader does differ.

My theory behind the Hydaelyn disappearance is that she really isn't 'gone' but doesn't have enough strength to talk to us/help us as much as before, because we have effectively been draining her aether into Zodiark (the dark blue/purple crystal, Lahabrea mentions their deity (and we know that the crystals are deities, as Hydaelyn is one) is shattered (and we all know that crystals shatter). What's more is that all the attuning crystals for the elemental Primals are bluish/purple iirc, I found this odd at first because shouldn't Ifrit's crystal be red/orange since he is a fire Primal? Well what if those attuning crystals are actually shattered pieces of Zodiark himself? And by using them to summon Elemental Primals from the aether, it is functioning as a tool that is converting Hydaelyn's Aether (so to speak) into Zodiark's Aether (again so to speak), just as we have the Blade of Light that does the exact opposite. The only Primal whose crystal isn't that color is Odin's however if you have completed Urth's Font you learn that Odin--the person on the horse in particular--isn't really a Primal, and that it is the sword that is cursed and absorbing the Aether from the Shroud, not from any kind of crystal, Even Bahamut's heart in Coil is of that purplish color crystal.

So yeah that is my hypothesis on what is going on in terms of the Mother Crystal (Hydaelyn) and more than likely the Father Crystal (Zodiark).

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I'm confused. I recall Ifrit's being red/orange and Garuda's being green. I think Titan's is the yellowy color. The only one that I remember being purple is the one from Ramuh, but purple is his color. The only time I recall them not being colored was when Midgardsormr shattered them.

I mean, there's nothing wrong with you theory, it just means that, win or lose, Ultima weapon managed to shaft Hydelaen hard. Lose, and Ultima goes off, and Hydalean loses. Win, Hydelaen just spent all her energy that very well could have gone right to Zodiark.

Oh I mean the attuning crystals, not ones we carried around. The Crystal shards that the Beastmen have adorned in shrine like fashion in their respective strongholds and the like.

Its probably been stated but while I'm pleasantly entertained by the ending of the 2.x plotline it does ask several questions in its own right.

1) Ultimately the fate of Nanamo isn't exactly certain yet. Tho she is poisoned of course there's little time to ascertain her condition especially since Telediji burst in extremely fast (he was probably waiting outside the door for Nanamo to keel over) so its unknown if she is ultimately dead.

2) There's also the fact that why was it set up for the WoL to be the "assassin" expecially considering the fact that implying the WoL was the assassin would basically be setting everyones BS detectors off.

3) Theres also another thing which makes me wonder who in Ul'dah would want the scions out of the way since the scions generally dont get involved in internal political matters only in those that affect the realm itself. It basically leaves questions as to Loloritos ultimate intentions?

A) Is he in league with the Garleans for his own powerhold? It wouldnt be the 1st time they used that tactic it was the same one used to cripple Ala Mhigo 15 years prior to XIV ARR: Weaken a nation with an internal conflict that cripples it and makes it easy to overrun. As stated during the prelude to the Ishgard siege the other 2 city states basically didnt help because they were bogged down with their own problems. That and Ul'dah has already been infiltrated by Garlean infiltrators already.
B) Is he an acian infiltrator? It WOULD be plausible as well since he seemingly intends for the Scions to be dragged into it to be discredited. Theres also their ultimate aim of trying to drain the aether out of the land to revive Zodiac from what we've seen so far so using a political situation to remove or disable the one group actively fighting against them would also be plausible.

Ultimately I wouldnt be suprised if Ul'dah becomes a prominent part of 3.X either during the story or as par of the story post Heavensward. One thing to be expected is they said they got the story planned out for several years so the Ul'dah scenario could be part of a build up to the 4.X series and the one place I can see be expanded to then would be the Ala Mhigo region (tho the likes of sharalyn and the 2 known beastmen strongholds (Ixal/Amalj'aa) are on the main map but currently not accessible).

Ultimately tho.... I wish I had actual lines that I could say even if they were only sayable during non VA scenes. I want personality like the mass effect series (Serious/Positive/Agressive/Trololol responce). Mebbe yoshi and co can sneak that in. That scene where the WoL gets thrown into the room demands a sarcastic witty responce!

I wonder if Raubahn will go berserk and kill the monentarists (that deserves it) and the pipin will be the new Flam Marshal?

Just a thought on the matter.

I see many posts on many forums asking why we didn't just go Hulk and smash all the Brass Blades and Crystal Braves. That should be obvious, cause as it stood the best they had was an accusation from a government body nobody trusts as far as they can throw either half of Telediji. Killing the town guards on our way out would serve only to strengthen the claim of our guilt. Nevermind that outside the personal head cannon of players, the WoL has never acted in a manner that wasn't in the same cloying virtue of a golden age superhero.

To sum it up, Superman doesn't melt the faces off police/military that have come to capture him for a crime Lex Luthor framed him for.

... err... I'm having trouble formatting this as a spoiler, so... beware reading below.

Urianger is an fun one to speculate about. I don't think he's turned on the Scions. A few clues were dropped that I'm hoping I'm purring together correctly:
Urianger is in the Waking Sands. If you go back and talk to him, he says "Never again will our brethren suffer at the hands of our enemies - this I swore to myself after the Garlean raid."
Alisaie is in the Waking Sands.
Alisaie knows the secrets found in the Coil, including that of Phoenix. I have a feeling she shared that secret with Urianger, who used that primal, to spirit the rest of the Scions out of Ul'Dah, when each was about to meet certain death.
She got word of the unrest/plotting in Ul'Dah and made sure her brother, and maybe the other Scions, had a way out of the city.
Tataru is still in contact with Urianger - I'm wondering if she knew something was up, hence her suspicious behavior and searching for good luck amulets.
I'm just not ready to believe that she, or Urianger, are bad yet.

Why do people think Tataru is evil? Just because of her smile at the end her questline?

Well saw most of what happened miles away but meh it is to be expect.

Though the part that got me the most and what I did not expect was the Urianger moment. What the seven heck is going on with Urianger's side of the story!

could it be possible that Tatatu could be possessed by an Ascien?

Its been a while, but wasn't it due to Thancred overexcerting himself that allowed him to become possessed?

Tataru has been doing her best to be as useful to the scions as possible: taking up occupations to get more gil....to joining a DoW guild

Ehhh I don't think Square would use the same plot element twice.

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Originally Posted by SongJoohee

Story done, oh man.

Yugiri's Face in spoiler.

http://i.imgur.com/lad9tT6.jpg

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I hope I'm not the only one that ended up disappointed in her reveal. "Oh, I lost my mask defending Tataru." Come on, SE, you could've done a LOT better than that!

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad we have one of the two cute Lalas around still, but... seriously... she just walks out of the room without any discussion on her features beyond losing her mask...

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Originally Posted by Raiya

Warrior of Light's Things to do for heavensward list

1) Fight dragons
2) Win and Befriend Dragons
3) Stop Dragons and Ishgard fighting.
4) Find missing friends
5) Bring said dragon friends to ul'dah with many many large pikes.
6) Feed said dragons evil monetarist lalafells on said pikes over very large bonfire
7) ???
8) PROFIT!!!! :3

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This. So. Much. Seriously... Lolorito and Ilberd either need to be slaughtered by Raubahn or us. Hey, maybe we can take control of the Omega Weapon and devour them both as if they were primals!

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Originally Posted by LuxLeonhart

Question for the devs:

How are you going to manage Culinarian quest line now that

Nanamo is dead and Lolorito is an antagonist?

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People keep asking this... CUL50 quest was a 2.0 quest. IE, "true timeline" it happens LONG before Nanamo's assassination. Yes, you can do things out of order, but the real timeline that the Devs are going off of is that you've done all the content(except maybe Relic/Zodiac) during that patch's cycle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matrinka

... err... I'm having trouble formatting this as a spoiler, so... beware reading below.

Urianger is an fun one to speculate about.
Urianger is in the Waking Sands.
Alisaie is in the Waking Sands.
Tataru is still in contact with Urianger
I'm just not ready to believe that she, or Urianger, are bad yet.

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Yes, mister holy wrangler (as Hildibrand used to call him) is probably the most interesting character in the game right now. I also don't believe that SE pulled out the "secretly and Ascian" card again. That being said it is kinda fishy. How did he know how to contact Elidibus? How did he even see Elidibus? Like I mentioned in my neat little wall of text, only those with the echo can see Elidibus. This was made clear during his introduction. Urianger is hiding quite a lot.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Why do people think Tataru is evil?

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I don't get it either. But since we don't realise how many plotholes there are in the story it's probably our fault /sarcasm

Finished the patch storyline last night.

Patch 2.55's new unofficial title to me is "Ish Going South Real Quick".

I fought monsters, demons, gods, and everything in between. I helped kill something that by rights is unkillable and saw some things that would make other men wet themselves in pure horror.

So how in the seven hells did things in Ul'dah go so south so badly? The Scions are effectively dead, we're running to Ishgard with our tails between our legs because we are criminals in Eorzea, Is there anyone anyone we can actually trust in friggin Eorzea? I was quite pleased that we still had Alphinaud, Tataru, Yugiri, Cid & co on our side, but then Urianger is seen with Ascians so now I'm full of wtf.

To everyone suspicious of Tataru...I'm pretty sure it's just that the story writers went extreeeeemely overboard on the foreshadowing. Even before this patch it was so glaringly obvious that we'd be betrayed in some way by the Crystal Braves. So obvious that many were hoping it was a red herring. If you didn't have a bad feeling by the time of the banquet invitation then I don't know what to say :P And by the time we get to the scene with Tataru on the beach we've been exposed to so much foreshadowing that her very blunt mention of how it feels like there's some finality or whatever is just one nudge and wink too far for even the most half-awake audience.

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Originally Posted by Branwen

Was I the only person disappointed with the lack of the player characters agency within these cut scenes?

Then were told to run, ok, then we keep running as the Scion's do their last stands. It honestly just made me feel the Player Character was someone weak and needed to be protected. Instead of the fabled Warrior of Light. I just slayed a dragon, how much are these guards being paid to fight me? I feel it just leaves several mixed messages in terms of the character's status in the world.

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I was thinking something similar but then remembered...we are no longer the warrior of light. Remember that was taken from us by Midgardsormr. Hydaelen no longer speaks to us, we are now without our light. Maybe that is why we are now treated as nothing more than mere adventurers versus the powerful warriors of light we were once known as. I can't wait to see how this all plays out and if we will see our scion friends again. They appear to have gone into the white light like Louisoix. Maybe they were ported like we were so long ago and maybe we'll meet them again in Ishgard. :)

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Originally Posted by Balipu

How did he even see Elidibus? Like I mentioned in my neat little wall of text, only those with the echo can see Elidibus. This was made clear during his introduction.

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I think Ascians can make themselves visible. You're also forgetting that Elidibus was "sighted" in Vesper Bay after leaving the Waking Sands, and also Moenbryda was able to see Nabrioles or whatever his name was. I think other Scions were there and saw him too. The player and Minfilia are the only mortal characters who have the Echo. It's kinda hinted at at the end of 2.4 that the Ascians' immortality and power lies within the Echo. At least, that's what I took from it.

EDIT: Another thing to point out about my Ascian Echo theory is that Nabrioles states that Lahabrea and Elidibus are from our plane of existence. It's likely they used to be people who had the Echo and "awakened" to it's full power. What I'm saying is, If you have the Echo, you can potentially become Ascian, think of it like the Force from Star Wars; a Jedi can turn to the Dark Side all the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matrinka

Urianger is an fun one to speculate about. I don't think he's turned on the Scions. A few clues were dropped that I'm hoping I'm purring together correctly:
Urianger is in the Waking Sands. If you go back and talk to him, he says "Never again will our brethren suffer at the hands of our enemies - this I swore to myself after the Garlean raid."
Alisaie is in the Waking Sands.
Alisaie knows the secrets found in the Coil, including that of Phoenix. I have a feeling she shared that secret with Urianger, who used that primal, to spirit the rest of the Scions out of Ul'Dah, when each was about to meet certain death.
She got word of the unrest/plotting in Ul'Dah and made sure her brother, and maybe the other Scions, had a way out of the city.
Tataru is still in contact with Urianger - I'm wondering if she knew something was up, hence her suspicious behavior and searching for good luck amulets.
I'm just not ready to believe that she, or Urianger, are bad yet.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Balipu

Yes, mister holy wrangler (as Hildibrand used to call him) is probably the most interesting character in the game right now. I also don't believe that SE pulled out the "secretly and Ascian" card again. That being said it is kinda fishy. How did he know how to contact Elidibus? How did he even see Elidibus? Like I mentioned in my neat little wall of text, only those with the echo can see Elidibus. This was made clear during his introduction. Urianger is hiding quite a lot.

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this is ofcourse speculation from me so take it with a grain of salt so to speak but, from the moment we meet Elidibus I get this feeling he unlike the other Asciens doesn't have it out for us. so my take is that he initiated talks with Urianger and is playing the other Asciens. maybe I'm wrong but I get this feeling Elidibus is a double agent and is on our side..