[dev1289] Job Adjustments

[Olor]

Instead of asking for more things to kill, people asked for the devs to mess with bst. It's that hater mentality and SE loves to reward it.

This. Happens every time. Not sure why people hate BST but every time the job isn't completely useless people lose their minds.

[Elexia]

That's the thing though. It wasn't like BST was making too much currency or killing too many things. It was just that they were killing the things that other people wanted to kill. So instead of asking for more things to kill, people asked for the devs to mess with bst. It's that hater mentality and SE loves to reward it.

(Btw, there's actually copies of enemies, but some of them are higher level, which the BST coulda went after (you know being a technical duo compared to soloers.)) The problem is, people largely ignored the higher level versions because it was less efficient, so even if SE added more enemies, people would still ignore them unless they were lower level. At this point in XI's progression, it would be "Apex" style enemies additions due to the fact the zones memory is already allocated to what exists, so they'd have to add "new" ones.

Also, they nerfed AoE WS because of the insane rate of procing White "!".

This. Happens every time. Not sure why people hate BST but every time the job isn't completely useless people lose their minds.

"BST PARTY ONLY PLEASE" < Once again this is what brought the attention. Less salt more realization. Look at SE's answer to Manaburns (Post 2005 updates and ToAU content.) So it has nothing to do with people losing their minds that a job "got useful" because people loved taking BLUs when they finally go adjustments to not be useless - but you don't see/didn't see BLU party only! for relevant content at the time.

[Olor]

"BST PARTY ONLY PLEASE" < Once again this is what brought the attention.

If this happened, I never saw it. At the very least BST parties were bringing in CORs/GEOs - often PLD too

And frankly - BST ONLY WORKS WITH CERTAIN SETUPS. It's not our fault that a buff for BST is WASTED for pretty much EVERY OTHER JOB. If I had my way our pets would not need special rolls - our pets would benefit from all AOE buffs. That's not how it works. Which means its not BST's fault if when BSTs party the ONLY WAY IT WORKS is to have other pet jobs. Otherwise either the BST is pointless and unbuffed or the other jobs are.

Punishing BST for a design decision made by the devs - attacking BST because of said job decision - is just pointlessly mean to people who enjoy the job

[bazookatooth]

(Btw, there's actually copies of enemies, but some of them are higher level, which the BST coulda went after (you know being a technical duo compared to soloers.)) The problem is, people largely ignored the higher level versions because it was less efficient, so even if SE added more enemies, people would still ignore them unless they were lower level. At this point in XI's progression, it would be "Apex" style enemies additions due to the fact the zones memory is already allocated to what exists, so they'd have to add "new" ones.

I never farmed dynamis on BST (it was never the best way imo) and I never farmed the lower level mobs (the mob levels / placement have been on the wikis since day 1 btw). I'm still failing to see any reason why they couldn't just add more mobs. It's not like they haven't added hundreds of new mobs to all sorts of old areas for no apparent reason over the last couple of years.

"BST PARTY ONLY PLEASE" < Once again this is what brought the attention. Less salt more realization. Look at SE's answer to Manaburns (Post 2005 updates and ToAU content.) So it has nothing to do with people losing their minds that a job "got useful" because people loved taking BLUs when they finally go adjustments to not be useless - but you don't see/didn't see BLU party only! for relevant content at the time.

A couple points. Manaburns were still alive and kicking as far as exp parties go all through ToAU. They just weren't at colibri camps. Sorry you missed them. Endgame content still used nuking just as much as far as I know.

And BST shouts... they weren't as popular as you make it seem. Most shouts are for PLD, GEO and WHM. Also, as was already explained, SE could have fixed the "BST only" thing by fixing the buff system. SE made this happen. Not the players and not BST. It's true of most pet set ups. "BST only" is a necessity* due to the nature of party buffs..... well, that and stupidity. We always bring other jobs and just have the cor do separate rolls for them (They last 7 minutes after all) but a lot of people still don't seem to understand that and would rather bring a lazy cor who rolls once every 7 minutes and takes a nap than bring a bst and a blu to the same event.

[Arthos]

It's true of most pet set ups. "BST only" is a necessity* due to the nature of party buffs..... well, that and stupidity. We always bring other jobs and just have the cor do separate rolls for them (They last 7 minutes after all) but a lot of people still don't seem to understand that and would rather bring a lazy cor who rolls once every 7 minutes and takes a nap than bring a bst and a blu to the same event.

This "just have the cor do separate rolls for them" is the theory. I agree, if you always go with the same people it's less worse, but still very suboptimal. But everyone feel free to try.
Personally I think a buffing phase shouldn't take several minutes each fight. There are also general buffs, which needs everyone standing together.
If you fight a mob with AoE dispel, things get really interesting. "Just" reapply buffs? Oh well...
Besides that Cor is not only a buff job, it's a hybrid, and some may still enjoy shooting on things, which requires rolls on their own aswell.

All in all i would leave it under the phrase "Not recommended". If you look a bit at efficiency, you don't mix bst with melee, if you don't have to deal with adds.

[bazookatooth]

This "just have the cor do separate rolls for them" is the theory. I agree, if you always go with the same people it's less worse, but still very suboptimal. But everyone feel free to try.
Personally I think a buffing phase shouldn't take several minutes each fight. There are also general buffs, which needs everyone standing together.
If you fight a mob with AoE dispel, things get really interesting. "Just" reapply buffs? Oh well...
Besides that Cor is not only a buff job, it's a hybrid, and some may still enjoy shooting on things, which requires rolls on their own aswell.

All in all i would leave it under the phrase "Not recommended". If you look a bit at efficiency, you don't mix bst with melee, if you don't have to deal with adds.

In reality, the PLD is probably getting ACC and the cor is probably going to do an attack roll on himself. Maybe it's annoying telling people where to stand...

[Arthos]

Annoying is the right word.

But let's create an example: Sinister Reign, setup PLD/WHM/BLU/BST/COR/GEO

1. Entering, WHM buffs, meanwhile Cor could do either melee buffs or Bst rolls on everyone.

Now it splits:
1.a) You seperate the Bst or Blu to get him his specific rolls. This can easily take another 2min.

1.b) You engage already, because you want to give the remaining melee or bst rolls while fighting. Problems: Positioning, Pld and mages are ok, but Bst and Blu will be very close together, at the safe DD side, mostly behind the mob. An experienced Cor will make it, but changes are good that u overwrite a Roll you don't want to. This is one of the tactical issues SE left us with the adjustment. BST is in a tactical area now, where he shouldn't be.
However, one of your DD's can easily be without or half buffed during first fight.

2. I know it's possible to clear it in under 7 minutes, but let's assume we did not for some reason, so we loose rolls on 3. fight, which is mostly the hardest. And in the hectic of running in and out to avoid Arcieala's Naakuals you have to hit a single player with an AoE roll, without applying it to anyone else. If you hit the other DD it can get critical, if you overwrite your mages refresh they can run out of mana.
PLD i dont count in this battle, he will be mostly ok here without defensive rolls.
And again: One of your DD's will be unbuffed half of the time.

Conclusion: Possible: yes.
Smooth/effecient/safe: hell, no.

[bazookatooth]

Annoying is the right word.

But let's create an example: Sinister Reign, setup PLD/WHM/BLU/BST/COR/GEO

1. Entering, WHM buffs, meanwhile Cor could do either melee buffs or Bst rolls on everyone.

Now it splits:
1.a) You seperate the Bst or Blu to get him his specific rolls. This can easily take another 2min.

1.b) You engage already, because you want to give the remaining melee or bst rolls while fighting. Problems: Positioning, Pld and mages are ok, but Bst and Blu will be very close together, at the safe DD side, mostly behind the mob. An experienced Cor will make it, but changes are good that u overwrite a Roll you don't want to. This is one of the tactical issues SE left us with the adjustment. BST is in a tactical area now, where he shouldn't be.
However, one of your DD's can easily be without or half buffed during first fight.

2. I know it's possible to clear it in under 7 minutes, but let's assume we did not for some reason, so we loose rolls on 3. fight, which is mostly the hardest. And in the hectic of running in and out to avoid Arcieala's Naakuals you have to hit a single player with an AoE roll, without applying it to anyone else. If you hit the other DD it can get critical, if you overwrite your mages refresh they can run out of mana.
PLD i dont count in this battle, he will be mostly ok here without defensive rolls.
And again: One of your DD's will be unbuffed half of the time.

Conclusion: Possible: yes.
Smooth/effecient/safe: hell, no.

You are vastly overstating the difficulty of sinister reign. I've done close to 300 runs now using mana burn, BST and melee set ups and I've only lost twice. Both due to being unlucky with the sharks placement in the middle of the ring. Almost every other battle in current end game is won or lost in less that the time it takes one roll to wear and rolls can be applied before the fight even starts in most cases.

[Dale]

This. Happens every time. Not sure why people hate BST but every time the job isn't completely useless people lose their minds.

I doubt if anyone hates Beast Masters. I sure don't.

We are just being honest and recognizing they were too powerful. That's not the same as hate.

[bazookatooth]

I doubt if anyone hates Beast Masters. I sure don't.

We are just being honest and recognizing they were too powerful. That's not the same as hate.

SAM has been OP for like 10 years and "Nerf SAM" threads have never gotten traction. SAM still outdamages BST and people are still complaining that bst damage is too high. It's weird.