[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Dale]

It's not cuz the example I used wasn't even "I'm killing an NM and I'm getting help". You kept changing the scenario into "I'm getting help, so anything I got is just a bonus", but my point was about everything in this game to begin with, including raid and grinding. In the case of grinding, the logic of "any help I got is just a bonus" can't apply here.




This is silly, it's human nature that ppl would have certain POV toward others, 95% of time it's something negative.

"This guy is annoying cuz he use a shield!" "This guy is annoying cuz he always fake d/c" "This guy is annoying cuz he always blame on others for failure" "This guy is annoying cuz he likes to show off his gears" "This guys is annoying cuz he only plays SAM".

Every choice you made, everything you said, someone else WILL have certain POV toward it. I bet there are plenty of ppl that's annoyed by both of our posts here.

There's zero reason to ask others NOT to feel annoyed(nor have certain opinion) toward the others. It's not going to work, that's just human nature. At best you can ask others not to act disrespect toward the others, you can't control how they think of the others though.

If you have an issue with other's behavior, point fingers at their action, not their thought/opinion.

I'm not really understanding your first point because I wasn't trying to change any scenarios.

I was using analogies to try and better illustrate why I take issue with your position that unless someone helps you as quickly and efficiently as possible they are somehow punishing you as a result. I just find that an incredibly misguided way to look at things.

As to your second point: I just think it's silly to get annoyed at someone over such a harmless detail. I have no problem with people having a point of view about something. If you want to think it's stupid for a warrior to use a shield then that is entirely your right to have that point of view. And with that I have no problems. But to get annoyed at them over it to me is a different matter and unnecessary.

In other words: I believe we should be able to have different points of view without it causing us to become annoyed at one another. Especially when it's on a video game and over something as silly as this.

And my reasoning is that a little live and let live would go a long way to making the MMORPG experience a lot more enjoyable for a broader group of players.

[Afania]

I'm not really understanding your first point because I wasn't trying to change any scenarios.

I was using analogies to try and better illustrate why I take issue with your position that unless someone helps you as quickly and efficiently as possible they are somehow punishing you as a result. I just find that an incredibly misguided way to look at things.

But you can't compare them, cuz asking friends/ls for help with something is completely different from grinding. Asking friends/ls to help you with something is always a bonus, whether they come naked, shield WAR, melee WHM or w/e. Efficiency is a none issue when it comes to getting help, since helpers don't get stuff to begin with.

If a friends come and help with stuff, I don't give a damn about efficiency as well, since extra help is always appreciated. But if I do yorcia 6 NM run, unless I'm selling win I usually would avoid a 45 min run when it can be done in less than 20 min. Most ppl aren't masochist enough to spend double amount of time to do something that everyone else can do twice as fast just because they want to play certain playstyle.

They're just not the same.

If today I can do yorcia 6 NM with 3 shield WAR in 20 min, then I can say role playing in this game isn't a punishment, otherwise I don't agree with you. You get less stuff than others if you role play, how is it not a punishment?

As to your second point: I just think it's silly to get annoyed at someone over such a harmless detail. I have no problem with people having a point of view about something. If you want to think it's stupid for a warrior to use a shield then that is entirely your right to have that point of view. And with that I have no problems. But to get annoyed at them over it to me is a different matter and unnecessary.

You think it's okay to think it's "stupid" for a WAR to use a shield, but not okay if it's "annoying"?

I don't understand your logic lol.

[Dale]

But you can't compare them, cuz asking friends/ls for help with something is completely different from grinding. Asking friends/ls to help you with something is always a bonus, whether they come naked, shield WAR, melee WHM or w/e. Efficiency is a none issue when it comes to getting help, since helpers don't get stuff to begin with.

If a friends come and help with stuff, I don't give a damn about efficiency as well, since extra help is always appreciated. But if I do yorcia 6 NM run, unless I'm selling win I usually would avoid a 45 min run when it can be done in less than 20 min. Most ppl aren't masochist enough to spend double amount of time to do something that everyone else can do twice as fast just because they want to play certain playstyle.

They're just not the same.

If today I can do yorcia 6 NM with 3 shield WAR in 20 min, then I can say role playing in this game isn't a punishment, otherwise I don't agree with you. You get less stuff than others if you role play, how is it not a punishment?





You think it's okay to think it's "stupid" for a WAR to use a shield, but not okay if it's "annoying"?

I don't understand your logic lol.

So now suddenly you don't give a damn about efficiency and recognize extra help is always appreciated. Good. I'm glad we are making progress So I am content with that.

And you can think something is "stupid" without it causing you to become annoyed at someone. So I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. For example: I think it's really stupid to do get drunk (I know because I had a lot of experience at it in my youth). But that doesn't mean I'm going to let my own personal feelings about it cause me to get annoyed at other people who do choose to get drunk.

[Afania]

So now suddenly you don't give a damn about efficiency and recognize extra help is always appreciated. Good. I'm glad we are making progress So I am content with that.

And you can think something is "stupid" without it causing you to become annoyed at someone. So I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. For example: I think it's really stupid to do get drunk (I know because I had a lot of experience at it in my youth). But that doesn't mean I'm going to let my own personal feelings about it cause me to get annoyed at other people who do choose to get drunk.

Not sure what's so "suddenly don't give a damn about efficiency".......I've been talking about raid/grind event entire time, which is mostly about how much stuff you can get per hr. You're the one mixing raid/grind content with asking for help......Obviously you can't demand your helper to be efficient or something, since they're getting nothing(most of the time) for helping.

My stance about efficiency don't change, since it's based on facts and math. It'll only change if dev change the game design and reward different play style. Let shield WAR grind as much plasm/hr as GA WAR, then I won't say a thing about different play style.


Annoyed is just a POV toward the others like feeling stupid.....

[Dale]

Not sure what's so "suddenly don't give a damn about efficiency".......I've been talking about raid/grind event entire time, which is mostly about how much stuff you can get per hr. You're the one mixing raid/grind content with asking for help......Obviously you can't demand your helper to be efficient or something, since they're getting nothing(most of the time) for helping.

My stance about efficiency don't change, since it's based on facts and math. It'll only change if dev change the game design and reward different play style. Let shield WAR grind as much plasm/hr as GA WAR, then I won't say a thing about different play style.


Annoyed is just a POV toward the others like feeling stupid.....

So you never have friends help you with raid/grind events? I do what you would refer to as grinding all the time with friends. So is it a punishment or not when a friend who needs something out of it helps you with a raid/grind but doesn't play as efficiently as possible? Cause now I am confused again.

And no, being annoyed at someone else is not just having a point of view. It is a personal emotion toward that individual. To just think something is stupid in a general sense is quite a bit different.

[Glamdring]

It's not so much about the most ideal setup, and more about just playing like you're capable of breathing on your own. Part of that includes, but isn't limited to, gearing with some degree of knowledge of what that gear does.

Shield War will not be tanking. Thus, why are they using the shield? It adds nothing to what they bring to the table, it on my detracts from the DPS they could be offering. For what it's worth, I've done plenty of content with Drgs, Pups, Blms, Rdms, etc. Playing and gearing with a good head on your shoulders can make up for much of the difference between the job's base performance.

And Jesus @ this massive derail from just saying I'd be annoyed as the Whm if a War in my party used a shield. Pretty sure you just gotta have the last word Dale, so have fun with that. Thanks for the psychoanalysis of me and why I shouldn't be annoyed at people who waste my time.

Wow, people are writing like I suggested full timing a shield, I did no such thing. all I said is that when you hopefully swap into that defensive set a shield has utility-an extra 30 defense can help a lot and many shields have -dmg on them as well. Once a cure lands on you, you swap back to whatever set you normally play in, and for most Wars that's likely a GAxe and a grip (seeing a dual-wielding war at 119 is extremely rare) so a shield is impossible. But if you are going to need a few seconds longer than usual (whm mid-cast or low MP or TP on healers) it might be the difference that keeps you alive long enough for them to cure you. I remember leveling war in the old days and I was tanking-until level 30 when all ability to tank pretty much dried up. From that point on, war tanking is pretty much confined to giving the nin time to put shadows back up, allowing a pld to cure themselves, or voking off a pt member who CANNOT take the hit when hate control hits the fan-especially healers or support people-and then only until the tank can take it back, and you wouldn't swap in a shield there unless the fan is fully hit.

no, the only time I would switch to a shield fulltime as a war is going to be when you find out you made a BIG mistake picking that enemy and are hoping to survive by a miracle. IF you live, you don't make that mistake again, fight something else and should only need it if you are waiting on a cure, like soloing with trusts, and that is a swapping situation again.

[Tidis]

Swapping to a shield isn't even good for a temporary defence boost, it's so minimal it's not worth it, on the other hand, you lose all your TP, you don't have a GA equipped anymore so you're doing poor damage.

Fact is you'll probably be /SAM or /NIN, if you really look like you're getting killed, Seigan + Third Eye or try to get shadows up while rocking PDT, that should be plenty, swapping to a shield is never a good option.

[Afania]

So you never have friends help you with raid/grind events? I do what you would refer to as grinding all the time with friends. So is it a punishment or not when a friend who needs something out of it helps you with a raid/grind but doesn't play as efficiently as possible? Cause now I am confused again.

I fail to see how friends in raid/grind event even relevant in this discussion.

My point was about how you got punished if you want to play different style in this game, friend or not.

Btw, I've never seen anyone/friends/lsmate/PUG purposely choose an inefficient playstyle due to role playing purpose, such as a shield WAR. I don't need to "demand" them to play the job in certain way, they aren't going to do it either.

Seriously, is it really that hard to grasp the concept of "you get less stuff per hour if you want to be a shield WAR"?

And no, being annoyed at someone else is not just having a point of view. It is a personal emotion toward that individual. To just think something is stupid in a general sense is quite a bit different.

So? What's wrong with having an emotion toward the other individual? It's human nature to have positive/negative emotion toward the others.

[Afania]

Wow, people are writing like I suggested full timing a shield, I did no such thing.

We knew that, and we've been saying that a WAR using a shield is extremely ineffective...if you're dying with a GA, you're probably gonna die with a shield anyways.....while making the fight last longer and WHM harder to keep the DD alive.

[Dale]

I fail to see how friends in raid/grind event even relevant in this discussion.

My point was about how you got punished if you want to play different style in this game, friend or not.

Btw, I've never seen anyone/friends/lsmate/PUG purposely choose an inefficient playstyle due to role playing purpose, such as a shield WAR. I don't need to "demand" them to play the job in certain way, they aren't going to do it either.

Seriously, is it really that hard to grasp the concept of "you get less stuff per hour if you want to be a shield WAR"?




So? What's wrong with having an emotion toward the other individual? It's human nature to have positive/negative emotion toward the others.

It's relevant because you brought it up. So it's strange to me you are suddenly saying it has no relevance when you are the one who decided to make it a important distinction in this debate to begin with. But now you are back to saying it's punishment even if a friend helps you in a less-efficient way. It's really hard to keep track of what you are saying because it changes so much.

But anyway: after reading this latest post from you this is what I take your position to be:

For some weird reason you seem to think it's punishment for anyone help you with a raid/grind unless they do it as efficiently as possible. But I maintain you should really learn to appreciate less-then-perfect help and not view it as a punishment. Because it's still better than you having to do it alone. In short: I believe you to have a very flawed idea of what the concept of punishment is.

As to your last point: just because you consider something to be human nature doesn't mean I have to approve of it. I don't get annoyed at people simply because they play a video game differently than I think they should. So it's not in my nature. And I'm pretty human. Least last time I checked.