[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Tidis]

It's relevant because you brought it up. So it's strange to me you are suddenly saying it has no relevance when you are the one who decided to make it a important distinction in this debate to begin with. But now you are back to saying it's punishment even if a friend helps you in a less-efficient way. It's really hard to keep track of what you are saying because it changes so much.

But anyway: after reading this latest post from you this is what I take your position to be:

For some weird reason you seem to think it's punishment for anyone help you with a raid/grind unless they do it as efficiently as possible. But I maintain you should really learn to appreciate less-then-perfect help and not view it as a punishment. Because it's still better than you having to do it alone. In short: I believe you to have a very flawed idea of what the concept of punishment is.

As to your last point: just because you consider something to be human nature doesn't mean I have to approve of it. I don't get annoyed at people simply because they play a video game differently than I think they should. So it's not in my nature. And I'm pretty human. Least last time I checked.

People are free to play how they want yes, but at the same time you shouldn't discourage other players from telling them what is proven to be better, it's advice, it helps the player improve. When I first started, WAR was the job I started with and since I knew I wanted to be a PLD I used sword + shield, then suddenly I was told I should really use axes (This was when dual wield was king but I didn't have /NIN at the time) so I went with an axe and shield, after which I was to use a GA.

Since most players will now skip that learning step of areas like the Dunes and Qufim Island, there may be some players out there completely unaware they are playing inefficiently, there is no harm in telling them how to improve, they can take the advice on board, or just ignore it and play how they want.

[Dale]

People are free to play how they want yes, but at the same time you shouldn't discourage other players from telling them what is proven to be better, it's advice, it helps the player improve. When I first started, WAR was the job I started with and since I knew I wanted to be a PLD I used sword + shield, then suddenly I was told I should really use axes (This was when dual wield was king but I didn't have /NIN at the time) so I went with an axe and shield, after which I was to use a GA.

Since most players will now skip that learning step of areas like the Dunes and Qufim Island, there may be some players out there completely unaware they are playing inefficiently, there is no harm in telling them how to improve, they can take the advice on board, or just ignore it and play how they want.

We are talking about two different things Tidus.

You can advise players how ever you want. And I was never debating the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of different play-styles.

[Malithar]

We are talking about two different things Tidus.

You can advise players how ever you want. And I was never debating the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of different play-styles.

Except you were, when you were defending a shield War saying it's viable, and that you know plenty of good War's who use shields.

The disconnect you're having with Afania is due to misunderstanding helping someone, and doing a run with someone. If I'm tossing together a casual run of something, say CP farming, I couldn't care less what people bring, people want CPs on different things. I'd still expect them to play at an average level at least, but if they wanna putz around as a melee mage, skill shield, etc, then have at it. But if I'm grinding out say a couple hours of Yorcia runs for gil and someone comes, then they need to be efficient to pull their weight.

It pretty much comes down to the intent of what is being done. If it's something casual, do whatever you want, role play, gimp it up, whatever. If it's something where efficiency will greatly alter the number of clears and drops we can get in a given time (and our focus is on obtaining those as fast as possible) then leave those things at the door, it's (Time for work!)

[Dale]

Except you were, when you were defending a shield War saying it's viable, and that you know plenty of good War's who use shields.

The disconnect you're having with Afania is due to misunderstanding helping someone, and doing a run with someone

Except that I wasn't. I'm in a much better position to say what I was doing than you are Malithar. ^^

Just because I said I have known warriors who used shields that were good players and consider them viable does not mean I was debating they were more or less effective than warriors who use great axes or any other play-style.

My disconnect with Afania is over her belief that unless someone helps/does a run with her as efficiently as possible it is somehow punishing her as a result. It's about how she views the contribution of other players in her raid/grind.

And anytime you do a raid/grind with someone they are helping you as far as I'm concerned. This semantic nonsense over the difference in helping and doing a run with someone is enough to hurt my brain cells and has no bearing on this debate at all from my perspective. But in order to be accommodating, I will refrain from using the word help for now on when describing other players who assist you in raids/grind. I'll use that word for now on.

[Afania]

For some weird reason you seem to think it's punishment for anyone help you with a raid/grind unless they do it as efficiently as possible. But I maintain you should really learn to appreciate less-then-perfect help and not view it as a punishment. Because it's still better than you having to do it alone. In short: I believe you to have a very flawed idea of what the concept of punishment is.

As to your last point: just because you consider something to be human nature doesn't mean I have to approve of it. I don't get annoyed at people simply because they play a video game differently than I think they should. So it's not in my nature. And I'm pretty human. Least last time I checked.

1) So you still don't get what I mean,to a point that you have to twist my opinion into "you don't appreciate others" huh? At this point idk if you just can't comprehend other's opinion or just trolling.

I appreciate help, I appreciate less than perfect help, for gods sake me nor all of my friends plays perfect. But it is not the same as purposely choosing to play a shield WAR for role playing purpose. Me or all of my friends plays imperfect because that's where our limitations are, choosing to play shield WAR is making a choice when different options available.

At least point idk what to tell you if you still can't grasp the concept nor tell the difference, 5 ppl in this thread told you how shield WAR isn't a good idea, you just wouldn't accept it. Is it really that hard to accept others opinion to a point that you have to twist other's idea into something completely different?

2) Right, you don't get annoyed over someone else, good(or too bad) for you. That doesn't mean everyone else is the same as you. Some ppl has emotion toward the others, let it be happiness or annoyed. You can't ask everyone else to be the same as you.

Just because you aren't like that, doesn't mean it's not part of the human nature to have emotion toward the others. "Human nature" is a term that may not apply to every single individual.

[Afania]

Except that I wasn't. I'm in a much better position to say what I was doing than you are Malithar. ^^

Just because I said I have known warriors who used shields that were good players and consider them viable does not mean I was debating they were more or less effective than warriors who use great axes or any other play-style.

My disconnect with Afania is over her belief that unless someone helps/does a run with her as efficiently as possible it is somehow punishing her as a result. It's about how she views the contribution of other players in her raid/grind.

And anytime you do a raid/grind with someone they are helping you as far as I'm concerned. This semantic nonsense over the difference in helping and doing a run with someone is enough to hurt my brain cells and has no bearing on this debate at all from my perspective. But in order to be accommodating, I will refrain from using the word help for now on when describing other players who assist you in raids/grind. I'll use that word for now on.

Doing a raid/grind is DIFFERENT from helping. When you do a yorcia run for plasm/gil, everyone gets $$. The only goal of all the pt members is to get stuff. In this case, it's more like a business, less like killing X NM and completing Y mission.

When I use the term help, I meant one person sacrificed their time to help another player progress, and get little to no return. That's help, and that's not business.

You're the one confusing the 2.

[Dale]

1) So you still don't get what I mean,to a point that you have to twist my opinion into "you don't appreciate others" huh? At this point idk if you just can't comprehend other's opinion or just trolling.

I appreciate help, I appreciate less than perfect help, for gods sake me nor all of my friends plays perfect. But it is not the same as purposely choosing to play a shield WAR for role playing purpose. Me or all of my friends plays imperfect because that's where our limitations are, choosing to play shield WAR is making a choice when different options available.

At least point idk what to tell you if you still can't grasp the concept nor tell the difference, 5 ppl in this thread told you how shield WAR isn't a good idea, you just wouldn't accept it. Is it really that hard to accept others opinion to a point that you have to twist other's idea into something completely different?

2) Right, you don't get annoyed over someone else, good(or too bad) for you. That doesn't mean everyone else is the same as you. Some ppl has emotion toward the others, let it be happiness or annoyed. You can't ask everyone else to be the same as you.

Just because you aren't like that, doesn't mean it's not part of the human nature to have emotion toward the others. "Human nature" is a term that may not apply to every single individual.

So now the trolling word is coming into play. Yep. I think this conversation is about done

I don't understand how you can appreciate someone assisting you while at the same time seeing them as punishing you. That seems to be a contradiction in terms. But w/e. I already said I'm glad you are now saying you appreciate less-than-perfect assistance. So why don't we end it at that as I tried to do earlier? I'm content with that.

And rather a warrior using a shield is a bad idea or good idea isn't my issue. My issue is allowing it to cause you to become annoyed at that person. That's what I have a problem with. Rather you think it's human nature or not doesn't really matter to me. I still have a problem with it.

[Dale]

Doing a raid/grind is DIFFERENT from helping. When you do a yorcia run for plasm/gil, everyone gets $$. The only goal of all the pt members is to get stuff. In this case, it's more like a business, less like killing X NM and completing Y mission.

When I use the term help, I meant one person sacrificed their time to help another player progress, and get little to no return. That's help, and that's not business.

You're the one confusing the 2.

lol if you say so. I never knew the term help couldn't be applied to doing raids and grinds. And I certainly never knew playing video games was like a business. So I suppose when I ask a buddy to help me with a raid/grind they aren't really helping me if they need something from the raid/grind too? I certainly don't agree with you. But this doesn't matter. I've already stated I will no longer use the word help so it's a non-issue. I will use the word assist for now. Maybe that will avoid these silly word games.

[Tidis]

People get annoyed at things that may seem trivial, I love PLD, if I see a poorly geared PLD I may get annoyed, I don't cuss them out, I may tell my LS something like "Wow this PLD is wearing some stupid stuff" without name dropping or anything because that would be unfair.

Likewise, recently I got annoyed at a poorly geared THF with a D Ring, that manly stems from my horrible luck at getting one myself and seeing someone who I would deem as geared poorly, having one ahead of me.

People are well within their right to get annoyed at another player, in the common example here, the WAR using a shield, just don't be a douche about it.

[Dale]

People get annoyed at things that may seem trivial, I love PLD, if I see a poorly geared PLD I may get annoyed, I don't cuss them out, I may tell my LS something like "Wow this PLD is wearing some stupid stuff" without name dropping or anything because that would be unfair.

Likewise, recently I got annoyed at a poorly geared THF with a D Ring, that manly stems from my horrible luck at getting one myself and seeing someone who I would deem as geared poorly, having one ahead of me.

People are well within their right to get annoyed at another player, in the common example here, the WAR using a shield, just don't be a douche about it.

If you are saying an individual has a legal right to get annoyed at someone else just because they play differently than they think they should or have gear they don't find acceptable then yes, I guess technically you are right. But I also have a legal right to think it's a stupid reason to get annoyed at someone else over. So I'm not sure what your point is.