[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Sephiran]

Longtime player so pardon my cynicism but this sounds like it will be something that'll have very little effect for endgame content since it's built around not having haste? That would be quite sad, since you can cap haste with Trusts these days...

If you are using Trust, you aren't soloing. You are using Trust.

[Selindrile]

If you are using Trust, you aren't soloing. You are using Trust.

I think most people would disagree with you, you could make the argument that trust is "not solo" but by that logic you could say that Beastmasters, Pups and Smns aren't soloing unless they don't have a pet out, by and large when people refer to soloing in this game, they mean, "one player character", and some go further as to call dual boxing and the like soloing because it's controlled by one person, but very few go the other way, and classify trusts or other NPC characters as not solo.

At the end of the day, the meaning of solo in FFXI is up for discussion, but I doubt too many would use it in the way you just did.

[Afania]

Sorry I'm late on this, I've been studying for a test non-stop the last few days.

It's not that I have a problem with playing your character well -- and believe me, I always try to play at the best of my ability -- it just bothers me how bent out of shape some people seem to get if someone doesn't meet their veteran expectations. This is compounded when said veteran makes the less experienced player feel like shit for not doing something just so. That kind of attitude seems far more prevalent now than it did back in the day (at least noticeably) and it just bothers me to no end. That's where the "sweating the small stuff" comes in. I think it's in the best interest for everyone involved that people takes a minute to step back once in awhile and remember that playing a game like this is supposed to be a fun past time and also that not every player is going to meet all the expectations you may have for them. That doesn't mean you should condescend to them and show your ass. Try helping them instead and politely explain how they could improve something. *Ahem* sorry, tangent.

Yes, I suppose I'd feel good helping to contribute to greater grinding efficiency, but like I said, I'm one of those people that would prefer everyone have fun playing a class they like, rather than picking the most optimum setup for squeezing out every little incremental bit of experience per hour or whatever. It's just not that important to me; it's a means to an end. Obviously there are many that disagree with me though, so it's not like my opinion matters much. I just like choices and variety and the ability to take advantage of it without being ostracized for "doing it wrong." That's the problem I have with the efficiency ideal; even when something is good enough to finish content, it's still not good enough for the masses of min/maxers, simply because it doesn't complete content at the same expedited rate as the tried and true, cookie cutter way of doing things.

I will agree that it's a good idea to play your job/class mainly as intended (meaning using the appropriate weapons for your job, not meleeing with a pure caster, etc) but I believe that every job should be given a fair shake, and I'd never hesitate to group with someone simply because they play a class/job that doesn't fit in with the status quo -- efficiency be damned.

In any case, I'm glad to hear that end game isn't quite as dreary as I was envisioning at least, and I appreciate you giving me some insight into it. I've really been enjoying the game so far and I plan on experiencing as much of it as I can.

I think you're talking about a different scenario then. My discussion with Dale was about "role playing in endgame content", 5 years of playing this game I've yet to see anyone playing a job in a extremely ineffective playstyle in endgame just for role playing purpose.

There are only 2 types of players that demand most optimal setup:

1) Pick up group leader with little to no confidence with pt performance. If you try to insert a job slightly different from bandwagon setup, they'd complain about wiping and losing 20 merit points in a BC. Those ppl are probably the majority that demands an optimal setup, and their motivation was certainly not because of elitism/arrogance, but because of fear and the lack of confidence....and in some case, the lack of knowledge.(If someone know the game mechanic/pt member inside out, that person won't lack confidence)

2) Real elitists who know(or claim to know) the game inside out, and they'd insist that their setup is mathematically the most efficient one because math/their experience said so.

Those are the minority, probably 1% of playerbase. It's often same person post on the forums and in game you'd rarely even get a chance to play with them.

Maybe my experience is just different from other ppl, idk. In past 6 months I can name less than 3 person in PUG with an attitude issue. Most of the PUG has no issue accepting my none bandwagon jobs even if it's not in /shout, although sometimes I did talk a lot to convince them to let me join.

[Afania]

I think most people would disagree with you, you could make the argument that trust is "not solo" but by that logic you could say that Beastmasters, Pups and Smns aren't soloing unless they don't have a pet out, by and large when people refer to soloing in this game, they mean, "one player character", and some go further as to call dual boxing and the like soloing because it's controlled by one person, but very few go the other way, and classify trusts or other NPC characters as not solo.

At the end of the day, the meaning of solo in FFXI is up for discussion, but I doubt too many would use it in the way you just did.

Since you can't use trusts in certain BC/instances, solo isn't the same as using a trust IMO.

[Selindrile]

Since you can't use trusts in certain BC/instances, solo isn't the same as using a trust IMO.

You can only charm monsters in certain BCs, you can't bring outside buffs into some but can in others, I'm not sure that factors such as this should really be the deciding factor over whether we consider trust "solo" or not, honestly the biggest argument I can think of against calling it solo would be the fact they show up in the party list. But if that were the deciding factor, Adventuring NPCs would count as Solo, but trust wouldn't, so not sure that's a valid argument either.

A player with a pet out is still soloing.

Calling pets is a Job Ability or a spell.

If we say that a Blm or Monk using job abilities / spells is soloing, then it is ok to say that for pet jobs too.

I agree, and calling trusts is a spell! I'm glad we're on the same page here!

[Nebo]

i don't know nebo if a party has a sam it gets real easy to sata, you know the sam is going to be in the monsters face, might as well make it easier for him to stay there ^.^/ and once its planted on him go around back and trick attack, well worth the dmg between a 3 or 4k evisceration vrs a 9k rudras.

Unless the SAM doesn't sit still, or there is more than one, or everyone has already reached the hate cap and the mob is just spinning like a top.

[Nebo]

Those are the minority, probably 1% of playerbase.

I agree that those are the minority of the playerbase but they are the majority of players that shout for PUGs for events. Players that shout to put pick up groups together are a minority unto themselves.

imo this is also a symptom of the poor grouping/recruiting mechanics in the game.

[Afania]

You can only charm monsters in certain BCs, you can't bring outside buffs into some but can in others, I'm not sure that factors such as this should really be the deciding factor over whether we consider trust "solo" or not, honestly the biggest argument I can think of against calling it solo would be the fact they show up in the party list. But if that were the deciding factor, Adventuring NPCs would count as Solo, but trust wouldn't, so not sure that's a valid argument either.



I agree, and calling trusts is a spell! I'm glad we're on the same page here!

What I meant was, if you try to solo BC/instance, you won't have haste buffs. You can get buffs from outside, but then it's not the same as solo...you need a friend/mule to buff you outside.

The entire argument was about "DPS increase is useless cuz we have haste all the time, even solo", but that's not entirely true if you solo BC/instance. Unless you have a friend/mule to buff you before enter, you can't get haste buffs solo in BC/instances.

I don't really care about the true definition of solo, the point was whether there's a situation that you'd use 1h weapons without haste buff or not.

[Afania]

imo this is also a symptom of the poor grouping/recruiting mechanics in the game.

There's nothing you can do about grouping/recruiting mechanics if the inherent issue is the job balance though. Even if you make all DD job "DPS role" and make auto pt generator, ppl still gonna instantly drop pt after they see a none SAM DD in pt.

[Selindrile]

I don't really care about the true definition of solo, the point was whether there's a situation that you'd use 1h weapons without haste buff or not.

Whereas I only chimed in to talk about the definition of solo and the meaning. I agree there are few situations you'd use 1h weapons without a haste buff, Dyna and Salvage come to mind as Thf, I do these without haste buffs always.