[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Seillan]

I wasn't going to get into this -- and I'll say right now that I've agreed with quite a few of your posts and views Dale and less so with Afania -- but I'd have to side with Afania on this particular argument. There's a clear distinction between getting help from someone that gains nothing for themselves and are just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, versus a random group member that is going for the same reward(s) as everyone else. One of them is doing it just to be helpful and thus, it would be outrageously rude to berate them for their choice of playstyle. After all, they don't have to be helping you at all. The other is doing something to better his/her character, along with others there for the same reason, and as such, is expected to contribute to the best of their ability (which partly means not deliberately gimping yourself.)

Don't get me wrong though, like I've said before, I'm not the type of person who cares that much about efficiency, so if someone was in my group and wanted to use a shield as a warrior, it wouldn't bother me for a second. At the end of the day, it's a game and my time must not be all that valuable to begin with if I'm playing one (heh.) I don't mind an extra 10 or 20 minutes to complete something as long as I'm having fun doing it.

Also, as far as having an issue with someone about "being annoyed" I'd once again have to side with Afania. It's his/her right to be annoyed about something because ultimately, it's really just an opinion. You can of course choose to think it's stupid to be annoyed by something like that, which is also your right, but you can't really dictate how someone should or shouldn't feel. It's up to the individual to feel however they want. That's life.

[Dale]

I wasn't going to get into this -- and I'll say right now that I've agreed with quite a few of your posts and views Dale and less so with Afania -- but I'd have to side with Afania on this particular argument. There's a clear distinction between getting help from someone that gains nothing for themselves and are just doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, versus a random group member that is going for the same reward(s) as everyone else. One of them is doing it just to be helpful and thus, it would be outrageously rude to berate them for their choice of playstyle. After all, they don't have to be helping you at all. The other is doing something to better his/her character, along with others there for the same reason, and as such, is expected to contribute to the best of their ability (which partly means not deliberately gimping yourself.)

Don't get me wrong though, like I've said before, I'm not the type of person who cares that much about efficiency, so if someone was in my group and wanted to use a shield as a warrior, it wouldn't bother me for a second. At the end of the day, it's a game and my time must not be all that valuable to begin with if I'm playing one (heh.) I don't mind an extra 10 or 20 minutes to complete something as long as I'm having fun doing it.

Also, as far as having an issue with someone about "being annoyed" I'd once again have to side with Afania. It's his/her right to be annoyed about something because ultimately, it's really just an opinion. You can of course choose to think it's stupid to be annoyed by something like that, which is also your right, but you can't really dictate how someone should or shouldn't feel. It's up to the individual to feel however they want. That's life.

Rather or not there is a distinction between someone helping you selflessly or with the possibility of self-gain was irrelevant to what I was saying. Either you appreciate someone assisting you less-than-perfectly or you view it as them punishing you. That was what the debate was about. How on earth this got side-tracked into a semantics game about what the word help means I will never know.

In other words: when Afania picks up a stranger from the street to assist her with a raid/grind she considers it as punishment unless they pay as efficiently as possible. That's what I take issue with. Because I think she should appreciate assistance rather it's as efficient as possible or not.

Secondly, this is a forum where people give their opinions. This isn't congress and I'm not trying to write laws dictating how people behave. People should be able to play this game as they want without having other players get annoyed at them for it. That's how I feel and I'm going to say it. People can either agree with me or not. That's life.

[Seillan]

Rather or not there is a distinction between someone helping you selflessly or with the possibility of self-gain was irrelevant to what I was saying. Either you appreciate someone assisting you less-than-perfectly or you view it as them punishing you. That was what the debate was about. How on earth this got side-tracker into a semantics game about what the word help means I will never know.

In other words: when Afania picks up a stranger from the street to assist her with a raid/grind she considers it as punishment unless they pay as efficiently as possible. That's what I take issue with. Because I think she should appreciate assistance rather it's as efficient as possible or not.

Secondly, this is a forum where people give their opinions. This isn't congress and I'm not trying to write laws dictating how people behave. People should be able to play this game as they want without having other players get annoyed at them for it. That's how I feel and I'm going to say it. People can either agree with me or not.

But it's not really irrelevant because Afania clearly stated the scenarios he/she was talking about. One of them was with someone helping with "little to no gain" to themselves and the other was business as usual in a party setting. The former, you are taking what you can get, no matter how inefficient because it will ultimately make it easier than doing it alone. In that situation, you appreciate the help regardless of the person's play style because it still helps you accomplish a goal more quickly than by yourself (plus the person is being selfless which is always appreciated, no matter who you are.)

The latter is something that everyone in the group is benefiting from equally. Since everyone is getting an equal share, it stands to reason that everyone should be contributing as best as they can. Now of course, some people will just not play as efficiently for various reasons and/or they might be playing a class that is considered by some to be "suboptimal" (which is honestly something that I feel should always be tolerated/accepted for the good of the game as a whole) but I can also understand that if something as simple as using a two-handed weapon over a s/s combination makes a huge notable difference to the speed of the run, it wouldn't be a bad idea for said shield user to switch to a two-hander for the good of the group.

And of course you're right. Everyone can give their opinions; that was my point too. Hence why I said it's totally someone's right to be annoyed at something, regardless of how trivial some of us might think it is. I will say that a person should never harass someone for playing a different way or any other reason of the sort. It's one thing to feel a way about something, but another entirely to act on it. From what I've seen in this thread, it looks like Afania understands that concept as well, so I'm not even sure why this argument is still continuing at this point.

[Dale]

But it's not really irrelevant because Afania clearly stated the scenarios he/she was talking about. One of them was with someone helping with "little to no gain" to themselves and the other was business as usual in a party setting. The former, you are taking what you can get, no matter how inefficient because it will ultimately make it easier than doing it alone. In that situation, you appreciate the help regardless of the person's play style because it still helps you accomplish a goal more quickly than by yourself (plus the person is being selfless which is always appreciated, no matter who you are.)

The latter is something that everyone in the group is benefiting from equally. Since everyone is getting an equal share, it stands to reason that everyone should be contributing as best as they can. Now of course, some people will just not play as efficiently for various reasons and/or they might be playing a class that is considered by some to be "suboptimal" (which is honestly something that I feel should always be tolerated/accepted for the good of the game as a whole) but I can also understand that if something as simple as using a two-handed weapon over a s/s combination makes a huge notable difference to the speed of the run, it wouldn't be a bad idea for said shield user to switch to a two-hander for the good of the group.

And of course you're right. Everyone can give their opinions; that was my point too. Hence why I said it's totally someone's right to be annoyed at something, regardless of how trivial some of us might think it is. I will say that a person should never harass someone for playing a different way or any other reason of the sort. It's one thing to feel a way about something, but another entirely to act on it. From what I've seen in this thread, it looks like Afania understands that concept as well, so I'm not even sure why this argument is still continuing at this point.

It's irrelevant to what I was saying. Maybe not to what she was saying. That's what you aren't understanding.

It doesn't matter to me if that person is assisting her with the possibility of getting something out of it or not. I feel she should still appreciate that assistance rather or not it is as efficient as possible. But she doesn't and views it as punishment instead.

That is the real disagreement in this debate. It has nothing to do with what the word help really means or what scenarios she is willing to appreciate less-than-perfect assistance in and which scenarios she isn't. That's just a side show to the real disagreement between us.

[Seillan]

It's irrelevant to what I was saying. Maybe not to what she was saying. That's what you aren't understanding.

It doesn't matter to me if that person is assisting her with the possibility of getting something out of it or not. I feel she should still appreciate that assistance rather or not it is as efficient as possible. But she doesn't and views it as punishment instead.

That is the real disagreement in this debate. It has nothing to do with what the word help really means or what scenarios she is willing to appreciate less-than-perfect assistance in and which scenarios she isn't. That's just a side show to the real disagreement between us.

Well then, I guess the only thing left for you both to do is agree to disagree. Neither of you will change your POV (or each others) -- that much has been made blatantly clear -- so why keep this going? You've both stated your opinions and argued them thoroughly, so there's really nothing else you can do.

[Dale]

Well then, I guess the only thing left for you both to do is agree to disagree. Neither of you will change your POV (or each others) -- that much has been made blatantly clear -- so why keep this going? You've both stated your opinions and argued them thoroughly, so there's really nothing else you can do.

That much is certainly clear. And I've tried to end it several times already by saying at least she can appreciate it when friends selflessly assist her in less-than-perfect ways so I am content with that.

[Afania]

So now the trolling word is coming into play. Yep. I think this conversation is about done

I don't understand how you can appreciate someone assisting you while at the same time seeing them as punishing you. That seems to be a contradiction in terms. But w/e. I already said I'm glad you are now saying you appreciate less-than-perfect assistance. So why don't we end it at that as I tried to do earlier? I'm content with that.

And rather a warrior using a shield is a bad idea or good idea isn't my issue. My issue is allowing it to cause you to become annoyed at that person. That's what I have a problem with. Rather you think it's human nature or not doesn't really matter to me. I still have a problem with it.

FYI I didn't actually accuse you for trolling, I only pointed out that it could be what you're trying to do. If you're not trolling, then you're not.

I think Seillan already stated my POV toward "feeling annoyed", so there's no need to continue anymore. You can't control other's emotion. You think it's "silly" to feel annoyed at a shield WAR, I also think it's silly to have problem with someone else when you see them annoyed. I don't really give a damn if someone's annoyed/angry/happy/have emotion in a video game, human has emotion all the time, it's too tiring to care about every single individual's emotion. So I really don't understand why'd you have problem with some strangers on the internet feel annoyed.

If you have problem just because someone else feel annoyed to a point that you have to write 10 pages of post fighting against it, then you'd have problem with someone else very often then, lol. Wouldn't that make your life full of unhappiness since you view everything "wrong" if it doesn't go the way you want? lol.

[Afania]

lol if you say so. I never knew the term help couldn't be applied to doing raids and grinds. And I certainly never knew playing video games was like a business. So I suppose when I ask a buddy to help me with a raid/grind they aren't really helping me if they need something from the raid/grind too? I certainly don't agree with you. But this doesn't matter. I've already stated I will no longer use the word help so it's a non-issue. I will use the word assist for now. Maybe that will avoid these silly word games.

It depend on the game, in the case of FFXI raid/endgame, I'd say yes, it's more like a business. That's mainly because the world of FFXI is quite close to how rl works. For gods sake, ppl sell win in this game, so that is related to making profit and how is making profit not business?

Also FYI, I appreciate friend's help, if they actually help. If they're not contributing anything, then it's not real help. So how is it possible to appreciate it if I got 0 help? Do you expect someone join a yorcia pt, got a split of gil(so everyone gets less $$ per run), while doing almost nothing in entire run? That's not how the world works. No one(not just Afania) is going to appreciate helps like this.

I also have to point out, in FFXI endgame events, if you bring more than 6 person the difficulty gets higher. So you simply can't just bring anyone.

It seems that you're eager to define how the world should work using your own POV, while I just stated how the world works using objective POV by stating facts and analyze it.

[Catmato]

So how 'bout them Job Adjustments?

[Seillan]

<Small voice>

I've got Defender job points level 6, and 5/5 defender merits lol. I like my War having the option to go defensive for survival, and I guess that includes shields. But obviously no War is going to a serious zerg event with Defender up and a shield equipped. Its just a useful situational boost and option.

Hey Stompa, I hate to ask about this here where it's totally off-topic and random, but since this site doesn't seem to have a PM function (unless I missed it) I was wondering what the community on your server was like? I've been playing quite a bit on Asura but I haven't really noticed many social/family-style linkshells around during my time there. I was looking for something more laid back and more accepting of all jobs, rather than just a handful of them (Ha, that's "kind of" on topic.) I figure that kind of thing might be easier to find on a somewhat smaller server?

Anyway, I was just curious of your opinions on the server, generally.