[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Malithar]

the warrior with the shield isn't playing stupid

..That is playing stupid.

Also: I should point out there is a lot more to playing your job than just always doing damage. Any player who limits himself to such a small task is the one who is really gimping the group if you ask me. So I would agree with Glamdring. Players should expand their thought process and breadth of capabilities when possible. To always assume its the healer's job to keep you alive no matter what is a good way to end up on the floor dead blaming others.

As a healer, I'll be the first to say it: It is my job to ensure that no one ends up on the floor no matter what. There's very few things in this game anymore that have the damage output to really be a threat with a competent healer and support. The things that are a risk, you use -DT sets, Scherzo, Earthern Armor, or Geo-Wilt/Fend. I don't know how else to put it, but a shield on a War is not helping anyone at all. Good DDs aren't just limited to... good DD, but that's their role. That's why they're there. The good ones will know to voke incoming mobs, do a hate grabbing action after a hate wipe, maintain shadows, -DT sets on when/if needed, WS/SC when is optimal, stack JAs in such a way to get the most out of them, etc. They're not single minded, even Sam and Mnk, two DDs that are considered some of the most single minded around benefit greatly from playing smart and following the above points. But a shield on a War...no, this does absolutely nothing except for gimp the role you're brought for. I played War extensively before it became obvious that my Geo would be infinitely more useful in any content than it. I even skilled shield just cause. But it serves nearly 0 purpose, kiting is the only thing that even remotely comes to mind, and even that's a stretch; what's honestly kited anymore? Is that +30ish defense of whatever even going to make a difference?

As far as letting things bother me, it's more a pride matter. As I said in the previous post, I'd be annoyed if a War in my party had a shield. That's directly saying "I don't trust you to keep me alive." Because guess what, that War didn't get an invite to come and pseudo-kinda-sorta be a tank, he came to DD. His role is to DD. If he tanks from pumping out better numbers than the rest, awesome, I don't have to bother healing a bunch of others except for after TP moves and spells. But he better not toss on a shield because 1, he doesn't need it to survive, and 2, it's not helping the himself or the run. It's gimping himself for...what? Because he's an outside the box thinker that's ahead of his time? He won't be in my runs anymore, I know that much.

Again, you should be careful not to expect everyone else to live up to your own individual reasoning.

Just because you think there is no good reason to, doesn't mean everyone else does.

Name an honest to god good reason for a War to use a shield in a party situation. And don't do some mouth breather setup like Dnc main healer and 5 DDs without any protective JAs/spells/gear.

A War's role is DD. -DT sets, spells, and JAs are more than enough to survive anything. In what way does a shield help a War fulfill his role? And no, Fencer isn't enough to close the gap. And no, the defense provided by the shield doesn't magically make you able to tank. If anything, you'd tank worse because you're doing far less damage, while still taking similar amounts of damage, thus bleeding hate. So what use is there to it?

[Dale]

..That is playing stupid.



As a healer, I'll be the first to say it: It is my job to ensure that no one ends up on the floor no matter what. There's very few things in this game anymore that have the damage output to really be a threat with a competent healer and support. The things that are a risk, you use -DT sets, Scherzo, Earthern Armor, or Geo-Wilt/Fend. I don't know how else to put it, but a shield on a War is not helping anyone at all. Good DDs aren't just limited to... good DD, but that's their role. That's why they're there. The good ones will know to voke incoming mobs, do a hate grabbing action after a hate wipe, maintain shadows, -DT sets on when/if needed, WS/SC when is optimal, stack JAs in such a way to get the most out of them, etc. They're not single minded, even Sam and Mnk, two DDs that are considered some of the most single minded around benefit greatly from playing smart and following the above points. But a shield on a War...no, this does absolutely nothing except for gimp the role you're brought for. I played War extensively before it became obvious that my Geo would be infinitely more useful in any content than it. I even skilled shield just cause. But it serves nearly 0 purpose, kiting is the only thing that even remotely comes to mind, and even that's a stretch; what's honestly kited anymore? Is that +30ish defense of whatever even going to make a difference?

As far as letting things bother me, it's more a pride matter. As I said in the previous post, I'd be annoyed if a War in my party had a shield. That's directly saying "I don't trust you to keep me alive." Because guess what, that War didn't get an invite to come and pseudo-kinda-sorta be a tank, he came to DD. His role is to DD. If he tanks from pumping out better numbers than the rest, awesome, I don't have to bother healing a bunch of others except for after TP moves and spells. But he better not toss on a shield because 1, he doesn't need it to survive, and 2, it's not helping the himself or the run. It's gimping himself for...what? Because he's an outside the box thinker that's ahead of his time? He won't be in my runs anymore, I know that much.



Name an honest to god good reason for a War to use a shield in a party situation. And don't do some mouth breather setup like Dnc main healer and 5 DDs without any protective JAs/spells/gear.

A War's role is DD. -DT sets, spells, and JAs are more than enough to survive anything. In what way does a shield help a War fulfill his role? And no, Fencer isn't enough to close the gap. And no, the defense provided by the shield doesn't magically make you able to tank. If anything, you'd tank worse because you're doing far less damage, while still taking similar amounts of damage, thus bleeding hate. So what use is there to it?

I'll respond broadly to a few points.

That is your opinion that using a shield as a warrior is stupid. The warrior using a shield obviously disagrees. But you can feel it's stupid if you want. That's your right. Just don't openly mock him or make rude comments to him because of it. Because that is your issue if you want to let silly things like that cause you personal annoyance. Not his. And he shouldn't have to suffer because of another player's intolerance (for the record I'm not saying you do mock warriors who use shields. But just in case you do I am asking you not to).

Also: it's not your job your job as a healer to ensure no one ends up on the floor no matter what. You of course do what you can to prevent it. But to say it's a healer's job to keep everyone alive no matter what is an impossible standard you will never be able to live up to. And to expect other healers to live up to such an insane job description is unreasonable.

As far as you asking me to give you honest to god good reasons to use a shield in a party situation I will let a warrior do that. I don't play the job, so I'm not qualified to answer such a question. All I know is I have played with some very good warriors who used shields. So it's not as horrible as you are making out.

[Dale]

Same reason seeing a THF using a sword annoys me I imagine.

If the weapon a person is using in a video game causes you annoyance, you must have a very carefree life

I'm sure you can find better things to get annoyed about.

[Tidis]

It may be his opinion but it's backed up by facts, facts that the DoT a WAR will lose using a shield and, I assume an Axe when compared to using a GA is massive, especially when factoring in what shield WAR has access to and their fairly average shield skill, over the course of a battle as he says, the war will shed more enmity from damage taken than they make up with damage mitigation using a shield.

What is opinion is definitely you saying you've played with some good warriors that use a shield, conversely, my opinion is that no good warrior would use a shield.

[Kincard]

Holy crap, did I just take a time machine back to 2005 Allakhazam where bad players were throwing around the term elitist or "opinion" whenever someone says something is demonstratively inferior in a largely number-based RPG game?

Using your confirmation bias to find a conceited individual who thinks he's "elite" but actually turns out to be a bad player doesn't mean "elitists" are bad or less flexible at the game than you are.

Out of all the possibilities I can think of in the game, the situations I can think of where things go so far south you actually need a Warrior to put on a shield probably means something else has gone wrong in your group. It's useful in so few instances it's not worth the two inventory slots you could use for other pieces of armor.

[Dale]

It may be his opinion but it's backed up by facts, facts that the DoT a WAR will lose using a shield and, I assume an Axe when compared to using a GA is massive, especially when factoring in what shield WAR has access to and their fairly average shield skill, over the course of a battle as he says, the war will shed more enmity from damage taken than they make up with damage mitigation using a shield.

What is opinion is definitely you saying you've played with some good warriors that use a shield, conversely, my opinion is that no good warrior would use a shield.

Yes in end these are all just opinions. But it's when these opinions lead to people calling others stupid, or that they suck etc. that they become more than just opinions but a problem.

[Dale]

Holy crap, did I just take a time machine back to 2005 Allakhazam where bad players were throwing around the term elitist or "opinion" whenever someone says something is demonstratively inferior in a largely number-based RPG game?

There is a huge difference in demonstrating why something is inferior and then saying you are annoyed by other players who may do something different.

I hope you can see that.

A warrior using a shield shouldn't annoy anyone. If you don't want to play with him then fine - don't play with him. That is entirely your right. But to let it annoy you or use it as a source for ridicule is just silly.

[Kincard]

If someone is wasting your time by being a bad player, then I don't see why someone wouldn't be annoyed. I don't think I've heard of people being annoyed at bad players they don't play with, they usually just laugh at them.

One of the problems with your exact attitude is that people are often complaining about how they don't get invites in the game, and if anybody tells them its because of their favored job being terrible in the current game or because they gear/play poorly, they're usually the ones that actually get angry and act rude, as opposed to the people who know what they're doing. I've seen this over and over again, apparently giving advice = rude. A large portion of the playerbase has gotten jaded about that and basically nobody helps each other anymore, because people are almost never receptive to anything you have to say. (BTW, my favorite job is NIN, which has consistently been a terrible job except for exp grinding the old fashioned way and the Abyssea era, and some really niche things like Ark Angel EV)

If you've ever heard rumors of Japanese PUGs being more pleasant, I can tell you from first-hand experience that it's partially because Japanese players have a larger portion of people that are receptive to people giving them advice on how to play the game.

This isn't really a problem restricted to this game, this happens in basically every MMO. People that take the time and effort to learn how to play the game are always going to be annoyed at players that not just waste their time by being bad, but are also completely uninterested in improving and get defensive if you try to help them.

[Afania]

I'll respond broadly to a few points.

That is your opinion that using a shield as a warrior is stupid. The warrior using a shield obviously disagrees. But you can feel it's stupid if you want. That's your right. Just don't openly mock him or make rude comments to him because of it. Because that is your issue if you want to let silly things like that cause you personal annoyance. Not his. And he shouldn't have to suffer because of another player's intolerance (for the record I'm not saying you do mock warriors who use shields. But just in case you do I am asking you not to).

Also: it's not your job your job as a healer to ensure no one ends up on the floor no matter what. You of course do what you can to prevent it. But to say it's a healer's job to keep everyone alive no matter what is an impossible standard you will never be able to live up to. And to expect other healers to live up to such an insane job description is unreasonable.

As far as you asking me to give you honest to god good reasons to use a shield in a party situation I will let a warrior do that. I don't play the job, so I'm not qualified to answer such a question. All I know is I have played with some very good warriors who used shields. So it's not as horrible as you are making out.

WAR shouldn't use a shield is an opinion based on math and calculations. "I like apple" is an opinion, it's personal preference that has nothing to do with math and numbers. "1+1=2" is math and fact, it's not an opinion. This is FFXI, everything is based on math and numbers, this isn't an art class that you have your own free will to choose how you want to get things done.

You lose more than you gain by using a shield, WAR can't use a shield as effectively as a PLD, on the other hand, the killing speed decrease is very noticeable. The result is, you take A LOT longer to kill stuff, the WHM wastes more MP, things got harder to kill and it requires more support because the entire event become a pain in the ass to do.

Further more, there are many other means to reduce dmg taken, DT- sets, /NIN, scherzo, defense buffs, or better pt setup. If you take at look at your DPS decrease v.s a bit higher survive-ability that doesn't make a zomg difference, it's hardly worth it.

Telling the WAR "you shouldn't use a shield" isn't disrespect, because the WAR is hindering the pt performance. The WAR that's using a shield isn't respecting everyone else's time to begin with.

If the WAR take that comment personal, then I have nothing to say.......

Also, everyone has right to feel "annoyed" if they see a player purposely choose a way to play the game that wastes 5 other player's time. This has nothing to do with personality/disrespect.

[Seillan]

If someone is wasting your time by being a bad player, then I don't see why someone wouldn't be annoyed. I don't think I've heard of people being annoyed at bad players they don't play with, they usually just laugh at them.

One of the problems with your exact attitude is that people are often complaining about how they don't get invites in the game, and if anybody tells them its because of their favored job being terrible in the current game or because they gear/play poorly, they're usually the ones that actually get angry and act rude, as opposed to the people who know what they're doing. I've seen this over and over again, apparently giving advice = rude. A large portion of the playerbase has gotten jaded about that and basically nobody helps each other anymore, because people are almost never receptive to anything you have to say. (BTW, my favorite job is NIN, which has consistently been a terrible job except for exp grinding the old fashioned way and the Abyssea era, and some really niche things like Ark Angel EV)

If you've ever heard rumors of Japanese PUGs being more pleasant, I can tell you from first-hand experience that it's partially because Japanese players have a larger portion of people that are receptive to people giving them advice on how to play the game.

This isn't really a problem restricted to this game, this happens in basically every MMO. People that take the time and effort to learn how to play the game are always going to be annoyed at players that not just waste their time by being bad, but are also completely uninterested in improving and get defensive if you try to help them.

I think it depends on what type of "help" you're talking about. Calling someone "bad" and ridiculing them for playing a "useless" class and/or because they aren't using the most optimal gear setups isn't helping them at all; it just causes feelings of resentment. I'm not saying you do this (maybe you genuinely try to help inexperienced players while not being an asshole to them) but unfortunately, I'd say you would be the exception. The Japanese seem like a more polite/less confrontational culture in general, so it's not surprising that they remain diplomatic when giving advice; I'd wager they also don't forcefully interject their opinions as the only viable way to do something either. I've had enough experience in end-game situations in US mmorpgs to know that's typically not the case here -- in fact, it's practically the opposite. If more people actually remained sensible, patient, and polite while offering helpful advice to people that were struggling with their class/job for whatever reason, I doubt most people on the receiving end of said advice would get defensive about it. In other words, the presentation of advice is important. Telling someone to "L2P" is not advice, nor is it helpful in any way whatsoever.