[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Afania]

Not even normal fights to aid in your point. I've done difficult mode battlefields with a pair of dragoons before.

I think the real problem here is a lot of players are simply unable to defeat content unless under the most ideal and easiest conditions. And instead of admitting to this, they pretend they are just really good players who want to be as efficient as possible and that's why they only play with the most ideal set ups for any occasion. I could be wrong. But it's really the only explanation I can come up with that makes sense to me.

Except Byrth's example wasn't even the same thing as the shield WAR example you gave. His intention is to state that "you can have fun with different setup", which I agree, You just insisted that other players have to think the way you want them to be, which I don't agree.

[Dale]

Except Byrth's example wasn't even the same thing as the shield WAR example you gave. His intention is to state that "you can have fun with different setup", which I agree, You just insisted that other players have to think the way you want them to be, which I don't agree.

No I insisted that players not be annoyed by how other players choose to play. For example: if a warrior wants to use a shield or a paladin wants to use a great sword. These are not good reasons to get annoyed at someone IMHO.

You can think how ever you want. You can group with who ever you want. All I asked in this thread is that you and others not get annoyed at other players simply because they may play differently than you think they should. And that really isn't too much to ask.

[Afania]

But it was a good example. From all you have said, unless someone helps you as efficiently and quickly as possible you view it as a punishment. And to touch on what you said, even if you had two choices for a drive to work - one in a Ferrari and another in a station wagon... it doesn't really matter. The person driving you to work in a station wagon is still doing you a favor and it's faster than walking your butt to work. So to view someone helping you as punishment because you had better choices is still extremely misguided - to use a mild term.

And if you want me to stop thinking you always want the fastest set up possible, then you should probably stop putting such an emphasis on it. All I ever read from you on these forums is spreadsheets and dps and how players should do the most damage as possible else they are punishing other players, a leech, and should be barred from all activity outside of role play. So the only one to blame for my impressions of how you think is yourself.

It's not cuz the example I used wasn't even "I'm killing an NM and I'm getting help". You kept changing the scenario into "I'm getting help, so anything I got is just a bonus", but my point was about everything in this game to begin with, including raid and grinding. In the case of grinding, the logic of "any help I got is just a bonus" can't apply here.

No I insisted that players not be annoyed by how other players choose to play. For example: if a warrior wants to use a shield or a paladin wants to use a great sword. These are not good reasons to get annoyed at someone IMHO.

You can think how ever you want. You can group with who ever you want. All I asked in this thread is that you and others not get annoyed at other players simply because they may play differently than you think they should. And that really isn't too much to ask.

This is silly, it's human nature that ppl would have certain POV toward others, 95% of time it's something negative.

"This guy is annoying cuz he use a shield!" "This guy is annoying cuz he always fake d/c" "This guy is annoying cuz he always blame on others for failure" "This guy is annoying cuz he likes to show off his gears" "This guys is annoying cuz he only plays SAM".

Every choice you made, everything you said, someone else WILL have certain POV toward it. I bet there are plenty of ppl that's annoyed by both of our posts here.

There's zero reason to ask others NOT to feel annoyed(nor have certain opinion) toward the others. It's not going to work, that's just human nature. At best you can ask others not to act disrespect toward the others, you can't control how they think of the others though.

If you have an issue with other's behavior, point fingers at their action, not their thought/opinion.

[Dale]

It's not cuz the example I used wasn't even "I'm killing an NM and I'm getting help". You kept changing the scenario into "I'm getting help, so anything I got is just a bonus", but my point was about everything in this game to begin with, including raid and grinding. In the case of grinding, the logic of "any help I got is just a bonus" can't apply here.




This is silly, it's human nature that ppl would have certain POV toward others, 95% of time it's something negative.

"This guy is annoying cuz he use a shield!" "This guy is annoying cuz he always fake d/c" "This guy is annoying cuz he always blame on others for failure" "This guy is annoying cuz he likes to show off his gears" "This guys is annoying cuz he only plays SAM".

Every choice you made, everything you said, someone else WILL have certain POV toward it. I bet there are plenty of ppl that's annoyed by both of our posts here.

There's zero reason to ask others NOT to feel annoyed(nor have certain opinion) toward the others. It's not going to work, that's just human nature. At best you can ask others not to act disrespect toward the others, you can't control how they think of the others though.

If you have an issue with other's behavior, point fingers at their action, not their thought/opinion.

I'm not really understanding your first point because I wasn't trying to change any scenarios.

I was using analogies to try and better illustrate why I take issue with your position that unless someone helps you as quickly and efficiently as possible they are somehow punishing you as a result. I just find that an incredibly misguided way to look at things.

As to your second point: I just think it's silly to get annoyed at someone over such a harmless detail. I have no problem with people having a point of view about something. If you want to think it's stupid for a warrior to use a shield then that is entirely your right to have that point of view. And with that I have no problems. But to get annoyed at them over it to me is a different matter and unnecessary.

In other words: I believe we should be able to have different points of view without it causing us to become annoyed at one another. Especially when it's on a video game and over something as silly as this.

And my reasoning is that a little live and let live would go a long way to making the MMORPG experience a lot more enjoyable for a broader group of players.

[Afania]

I'm not really understanding your first point because I wasn't trying to change any scenarios.

I was using analogies to try and better illustrate why I take issue with your position that unless someone helps you as quickly and efficiently as possible they are somehow punishing you as a result. I just find that an incredibly misguided way to look at things.

But you can't compare them, cuz asking friends/ls for help with something is completely different from grinding. Asking friends/ls to help you with something is always a bonus, whether they come naked, shield WAR, melee WHM or w/e. Efficiency is a none issue when it comes to getting help, since helpers don't get stuff to begin with.

If a friends come and help with stuff, I don't give a damn about efficiency as well, since extra help is always appreciated. But if I do yorcia 6 NM run, unless I'm selling win I usually would avoid a 45 min run when it can be done in less than 20 min. Most ppl aren't masochist enough to spend double amount of time to do something that everyone else can do twice as fast just because they want to play certain playstyle.

They're just not the same.

If today I can do yorcia 6 NM with 3 shield WAR in 20 min, then I can say role playing in this game isn't a punishment, otherwise I don't agree with you. You get less stuff than others if you role play, how is it not a punishment?

As to your second point: I just think it's silly to get annoyed at someone over such a harmless detail. I have no problem with people having a point of view about something. If you want to think it's stupid for a warrior to use a shield then that is entirely your right to have that point of view. And with that I have no problems. But to get annoyed at them over it to me is a different matter and unnecessary.

You think it's okay to think it's "stupid" for a WAR to use a shield, but not okay if it's "annoying"?

I don't understand your logic lol.

[Dale]

But you can't compare them, cuz asking friends/ls for help with something is completely different from grinding. Asking friends/ls to help you with something is always a bonus, whether they come naked, shield WAR, melee WHM or w/e. Efficiency is a none issue when it comes to getting help, since helpers don't get stuff to begin with.

If a friends come and help with stuff, I don't give a damn about efficiency as well, since extra help is always appreciated. But if I do yorcia 6 NM run, unless I'm selling win I usually would avoid a 45 min run when it can be done in less than 20 min. Most ppl aren't masochist enough to spend double amount of time to do something that everyone else can do twice as fast just because they want to play certain playstyle.

They're just not the same.

If today I can do yorcia 6 NM with 3 shield WAR in 20 min, then I can say role playing in this game isn't a punishment, otherwise I don't agree with you. You get less stuff than others if you role play, how is it not a punishment?





You think it's okay to think it's "stupid" for a WAR to use a shield, but not okay if it's "annoying"?

I don't understand your logic lol.

So now suddenly you don't give a damn about efficiency and recognize extra help is always appreciated. Good. I'm glad we are making progress So I am content with that.

And you can think something is "stupid" without it causing you to become annoyed at someone. So I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. For example: I think it's really stupid to do get drunk (I know because I had a lot of experience at it in my youth). But that doesn't mean I'm going to let my own personal feelings about it cause me to get annoyed at other people who do choose to get drunk.

[Afania]

So now suddenly you don't give a damn about efficiency and recognize extra help is always appreciated. Good. I'm glad we are making progress So I am content with that.

And you can think something is "stupid" without it causing you to become annoyed at someone. So I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. For example: I think it's really stupid to do get drunk (I know because I had a lot of experience at it in my youth). But that doesn't mean I'm going to let my own personal feelings about it cause me to get annoyed at other people who do choose to get drunk.

Not sure what's so "suddenly don't give a damn about efficiency".......I've been talking about raid/grind event entire time, which is mostly about how much stuff you can get per hr. You're the one mixing raid/grind content with asking for help......Obviously you can't demand your helper to be efficient or something, since they're getting nothing(most of the time) for helping.

My stance about efficiency don't change, since it's based on facts and math. It'll only change if dev change the game design and reward different play style. Let shield WAR grind as much plasm/hr as GA WAR, then I won't say a thing about different play style.


Annoyed is just a POV toward the others like feeling stupid.....