[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[mattkoko]

I don't really want to get in the middle of this and I will refrain from agreeing or disagreeing with Dale an Afiana. However, I must say I can see the relationship between endgame as a sort of a job and meeting certain requirements and standards like a rl job. And this is not just ffxi. It is with any MMO that have endgame content. I mean look at the past of ffxi alone. We used to have dynamis shells salvage shells, sky and limbus shells and the list goes on. We even have endgame linkshells around now. I can't really comment on the endgame shells now because I cannot keep up with them, however I was in a few back in the day. And one of the things I hated most about them is because it was like having a job. Be there at a certain time for a certain amount of hours. Be there a certain number of times to be able to even lot on an armor piece. And if you miss a few events, YOUR FIRED! or in this case you are kicked. Now I only tried endgame a few times in those days, and the reason why is because, I already had 2 jobs and 2 bosses. I didn't need an in game job with a 3rd boss. or 4 or 5 depending on how many endgame LSes I chose to be in. Like I said, this is not just ffxi. I know my brother used to play WoW and he had to be on the computer to prepare for an event at certain times for his Guild.

Again, not taking sides. You can think of me as the judge by saying, "I allow this to be used as evidence" lol

And the reason I am refusing to takes sides is because I guess I kind of see both of Dale's and Afania's points and I agree and disagree to some extent on both. You can call me a coward but I just don't feel like being sucked into a 10 pages discussion talking in circles. I was already in a few debates with Dale in other threads and I bailed out 3 posts in, mainly because we both stated our opinions and we both didn't see eye to eye on them. I viewed it as a waste of time to express our opinions in a million different ways, just to come back to the same result. And I am completely okay with not getting the last word in.

By the way, I am not saying the need to get the last word in is a bad thing. Everyone has their own personality styles. I can tell that you 2 have a couple of the Expressor personality traits. Strong communicators, highly motivational and persuasive. There maybe even a bit of the Director personality traits in there. Taking charge, delegating to others to achieve results, unafraid to voice opinions. By the way, I am now using you 2 as a studying tool for My personal training test, as I need to be able to identify with multiple personality. It helps me figure out what appropriate actions to take with each client depending on their personality. See look at that shit. I can post in FFXI forum and study at the same time. Thank you for that .

Well, I know this entire post was pretty much off topic, but really, who is keeping track anymore? In reality I am really just trying to lighten the mood a little.

[Afania]

They graciously bowed out in favor of letting your ignorance/arrogance speak for them. I see that "getting the last word in" is coming along quite nicely. Expecting 30 pages by tomorrow. -.-

Malithar just opened a can of worms! I want to reply to Dale's last post, but if I do it'd start another 100 pages of debate >.>

By the way, I am not saying the need to get the last word in is a bad thing. Everyone has their own personality styles. I can tell that you 2 have a couple of the Expressor personality traits. Strong communicators, highly motivational and persuasive. There maybe even a bit of the Director personality traits in there. Taking charge, delegating to others to achieve results, unafraid to voice opinions.

Huh, irl I'm exactly the opposite lol, I'm always the listener/follower. So your observation isn't exactly accurate!

[Afania]

I guess what I can't personally understand is how you can take a video game so effing seriously. You liken it to working a job or "providing good service to a client," but... it's a video game. It's made to be used as a form of entertainment, a way to relax after work, an escape from reality -- not a place to re-live all the RL bullsh*t and pressures many of us are trying try escape. Honestly, and don't take this personally, but the mindset that you seem to be advocating here and explaining as the "facts of FFXI" just make me want to give up on the game. There are so many cool things about the FFXI universe, and I'd like to experience everything, but the more I read about how seemingly terrible things get in end-game and how strict and uptight people seem to get about doing everything in just a few cookie-cutter ways (going by your testimony here) the less I'm inclined to continue logging in. I'd have to agree with Dale that that kind of attitude is likely a big part of the reason that these "job adjustment" arguments are even raised to begin with, seeing as how the min/max players you refer to in your posts have such a narrow-minded view of how the game should be played, which jobs are considered "worthless," which play-styles are "effective, etc. You say these are just facts on how the game works, but if it's actually possible to complete the same content with varying "worthless" jobs and different play-styles (as Dale has attested), then how is it a "fact?" Is it slower to progress that way? No doubt. But ultimately, in the end, what does it really matter? I'd much rather have something take an extra 20 minutes and be fun, rather than having it go quicker with a class/job that I hate. I would think I'm not alone in that sentiment.

I'm not saying you're wrong here -- as I'm sure you wouldn't be making these arguments if they weren't your actual experiences in-game with PUGs and such -- but I will say that it's a depressing thing to read. I just wish these games were about fun again and not about being some pseudo-second job, with spreadsheets, and maximizing numbers, and status reports, and meters to make sure that the peons are all running optimally in their hamster wheels at all times, etc. Ugh. I just want to relax, play, and have fun on a class/job I enjoy but it seems that's practically viewed as a crime these days depending on the job, or consequently, the way that job is played. I feel that the importance some people put on efficiency is honestly to a fault. I mean, when you're lying on your death bed in the twilight years of your life, who's going to care how many extra incremental dps points your managed to squeeze out of a random rotation during a run in a game? It's just sweating the small stuff, in my eyes.

Anyway, I don't want to spur on another argument, so I'll let this be my last post on the subject. It all comes down to what people consider to be fun, and we all have our own definitions and opinions of it. I just wanted to share mine.

Although you said it's your last post, I'm still kinda curious....

Most of the ppl I've met in FFXI doesn't view playing optimal playstyle this negatively, they just do it cuz it helps their friends/ls to get things done and that makes them happy. If everyone is happy, they're happy as well.

Some ppl do hate playing mage jobs, which is fact. But when it comes to playstyle, almost everyone I've ever pt with picked the same playstyle as what community thought to be the best, and all the players I've ever pt with are happy to do so....I've seen a WAR complained for being asked to play WHM, but I've never seen a WAR complaining about not be able to use a shield in an event in my life, ever. Most of the players are actually grateful to hear suggestions and opinion to play better so they can be more helpful to the team.

So yeah, I really don't understand what's reason to view different playstyle THIS negatively. I can understand the frustration if you can't play the job you want, but when it comes to playstyle, it's really hard to understand......when you help your team grind more stuff per hour and make everyone happy, don't you feel satisfied with them?

FYI, when I just started playing FFXI, my goal was to be a melee RDM and I did the same thing....I questioned the community "Why can't I play a playstyle I enjoy?" since I also enjoyed role playing. And that started 10 pages of debate toward playstyle in FFXI.

Now that I've done enough endgame, I have a drastically different POV regarding this matter. It's nowhere as negative as how you describe, and I still look for opportunity to play different playstyle and have fun all the time.FFXI certainly has grey area and room for different playstyle, you just have to find them and create opportunity to use them, instead of forcing everyone else to accommodate one individual's playstyle.

[Seillan]

Although you said it's your last post, I'm still kinda curious....

Most of the ppl I've met in FFXI doesn't view playing optimal playstyle this negatively, they just do it cuz it helps their friends/ls to get things done and that makes them happy. If everyone is happy, they're happy as well.

Some ppl do hate playing mage jobs, which is fact. But when it comes to playstyle, almost everyone I've ever pt with picked the same playstyle as what community thought to be the best, and all the players I've ever pt with are happy to do so....I've seen a WAR complained for being asked to play WHM, but I've never seen a WAR complaining about not be able to use a shield in an event in my life, ever. Most of the players are actually grateful to hear suggestions and opinion to play better so they can be more helpful to the team.

So yeah, I really don't understand what's reason to view different playstyle THIS negatively. I can understand the frustration if you can't play the job you want, but when it comes to playstyle, it's really hard to understand......when you help your team grind more stuff per hour and make everyone happy, don't you feel satisfied with them?

FYI, when I just started playing FFXI, my goal was to be a melee RDM and I did the same thing....I questioned the community "Why can't I play a playstyle I enjoy?" since I also enjoyed role playing. And that started 10 pages of debate toward playstyle in FFXI.

Now that I've done enough endgame, I have a drastically different POV regarding this matter. It's nowhere as negative as how you describe, and I still look for opportunity to play different playstyle and have fun all the time.FFXI certainly has grey area and room for different playstyle, you just have to find them and create opportunity to use them, instead of forcing everyone else to accommodate one individual's playstyle.

Sorry I'm late on this, I've been studying for a test non-stop the last few days.

It's not that I have a problem with playing your character well -- and believe me, I always try to play at the best of my ability -- it just bothers me how bent out of shape some people seem to get if someone doesn't meet their veteran expectations. This is compounded when said veteran makes the less experienced player feel like shit for not doing something just so. That kind of attitude seems far more prevalent now than it did back in the day (at least noticeably) and it just bothers me to no end. That's where the "sweating the small stuff" comes in. I think it's in the best interest for everyone involved that people takes a minute to step back once in awhile and remember that playing a game like this is supposed to be a fun past time and also that not every player is going to meet all the expectations you may have for them. That doesn't mean you should condescend to them and show your ass. Try helping them instead and politely explain how they could improve something. *Ahem* sorry, tangent.

Yes, I suppose I'd feel good helping to contribute to greater grinding efficiency, but like I said, I'm one of those people that would prefer everyone have fun playing a class they like, rather than picking the most optimum setup for squeezing out every little incremental bit of experience per hour or whatever. It's just not that important to me; it's a means to an end. Obviously there are many that disagree with me though, so it's not like my opinion matters much. I just like choices and variety and the ability to take advantage of it without being ostracized for "doing it wrong." That's the problem I have with the efficiency ideal; even when something is good enough to finish content, it's still not good enough for the masses of min/maxers, simply because it doesn't complete content at the same expedited rate as the tried and true, cookie cutter way of doing things.

I will agree that it's a good idea to play your job/class mainly as intended (meaning using the appropriate weapons for your job, not meleeing with a pure caster, etc) but I believe that every job should be given a fair shake, and I'd never hesitate to group with someone simply because they play a class/job that doesn't fit in with the status quo -- efficiency be damned.

In any case, I'm glad to hear that end game isn't quite as dreary as I was envisioning at least, and I appreciate you giving me some insight into it. I've really been enjoying the game so far and I plan on experiencing as much of it as I can.

[Dale]

...You should probably read the names, and even look at the avatars. Might want to add blind to the list.

Yes I know, Why I should not visit forums when I am tired

[Camate]

Good news for one-handed weapon wielders!

The development team has been discussing revamping the damage over time of one-handed weapons, and they’ve decided to increase the power of high-level weapon skills. Part of this is giving consideration to those who solo and do not always utilize haste or other support-based spells.

Once all the details have been fleshed out we’ll make an announcement.

[Eaglestrike]

Good news for one-handed weapon wielders!

The development team has been discussing revamping the damage over time of one-handed weapons, and they’ve decided to increase the power of high-level weapon skills. Part of this is giving consideration to those who solo and do not always utilize haste or other support-based spells.

Once all the details have been fleshed out we’ll make an announcement.

Longtime player so pardon my cynicism but this sounds like it will be something that'll have very little effect for endgame content since it's built around not having haste? That would be quite sad, since you can cap haste with Trusts these days...

[Malithar]

Longtime player so pardon my cynicism but this sounds like it will be something that'll have very little effect for endgame content since it's built around not having haste? That would be quite sad, since you can cap haste with Trusts these days...

I read it more as they're doing it because one handed users fall behind when lacking capped haste, which tbh doesn't really make sense either, since everyone does. Not that they're doing it to be only in effect when you're not capped haste. Can't argue with stronger WSs at least, unless they buff Fudo while they're at it for the lawls. ;D

@Oracle: I call it like I see it. Read back over the past 10ish pages of derailed "I feel/think this way, so you're wrong" and tell me ignorance/arrogance aren't the exact definition of what was spewed about. Same deal with your little rage post about more refresh needing to be made available because your Whm couldn't keep up with anything less than 3 ballads from a Brd (thus Cor, Geo, and/or Rdm were not viable replacements for MP efficiency), despite multiple posters saying otherwise, from personal experience and with facts. No disrespect was meant by it, I tried to spin the advice in a way other than "suck less" or "learn2play." I'll keep advice for you on a more basic level next time. Besides, just for reference, who was the crazy searching down FFXIAH and LS community profiles, talking about knowing things bout LSs and such? Awwwkward.

[Raging_Oracle]

I read it more as they're doing it because one handed users fall behind when lacking capped haste, which tbh doesn't really make sense either, since everyone does. Not that they're doing it to be only in effect when you're not capped haste. Can't argue with stronger WSs at least, unless they buff Fudo while they're at it for the lawls. ;D

Stronger WS = All For It, maybe it will it will allow one-handed weapons to reach the consistency of VS.
Fudo reference = LOL

@Oracle: I call it like I see it. Read back over the past 10ish pages of derailed "I feel/think this way, so you're wrong" and tell me ignorance/arrogance aren't the exact definition of what was spewed about.

"Call it it like you see it": Well from what I saw you just jumped in to attack and slap the guy, then ran away. I would guess that there were many post made by a handful of posters that in your superior opinion where ignorant/arrogant, but you picked on and insulted the guy that was debating points with 5 others posters and provided nothing other than an insult. Cant see the honor in that approach.

Same deal with your little rage post about more refresh needing to be made available because your Whm couldn't keep up with anything less than 3 ballads from a Brd (thus Cor, Geo, and/or Rdm were not viable replacements for MP efficiency), despite multiple posters saying otherwise, from personal experience and with facts.

That post was about 18 man pug parties, so dismissing comments about what people do in a lowman imho is reasonable. Reading is fundamental (or maybe reviewing what you "see" before "you call it"). Cant tell me that using 1 whm for an 18man run or using 4 jobs to do the job of a single job is the answer for an 18 party with multiple whms is the answer for efficiency. But see, I didn't have a problem with those comments so much, I did have a problem with you proclaiming that you know what I do and what I don't do as if you knew, when you actually didn't know anything about what I do and don't do. I offered you ways to see exactly what I do, since you had such conviction. As a person ( by your own admission) that doesn't lead 18 man parties, rarely partakes in 18 man parties and doesn't hardly ever join pug groups - frankly I don't see how you could bring yourself to comment on the OP anyway - but you did. And now your at it again directly spouting how ignorant/arrogant some one else is - there's "Awwwkward" for you.

No disrespect was meant by it, I tried to spin the advice in a way other than "suck less" or "learn2play." I'll keep advice for you on a more basic level next time. Besides, just for reference, who was the crazy searching down FFXIAH and LS community profiles, talking about knowing things bout LSs and such? Awwwkward.

Sure there disrespect meant by it, the same way it was meant and purposeful in this regard, you cant directly insult someone and then say "I meant no disrespect". As for advise, I do things you don't, so how can you advise me again? Lastly, I do like to know what I am speaking to before I speak so hate the fact that I asked about ya. You maybe should have done the same thing before you proclaimed that I don't do the things that I do. You keep slapping people with this Ignorance/Arrogant thing, but meh what about the 4 fingers pointing back at you.