[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Dale]

Now you're judging the player, not the gear. This is solely a gear issue. If you take a player with an axe and a shield and give that same player a greataxe instead, he will perform better. Feel free to continue defending roleplaying if you want, however. That's the only way your argument holds any water.

My post to you had nothing to do with gear or who would perform better. It was just advice not to judge players based on your experiences with other players.

[Afania]

But it's not the game that punishes players for playing jobs in certain ways. Players like you do. I hate to be blunt about that, but it's just the truth. And players can simply ignore these types of players and play the game as they want. So yes, they do have free will - and can be successful in the process so long as they don't try anything absurd that goes against the intended game design.

So it's very possible to complete the content on this game using a variety of different jobs and play-styles. The fact some players can't tolerate a less efficient run and seek to exclude everyone but a select few based on this obsession to clear everything as fast as possible doesn't mean the game itself does. That's a very important distinction.

I find it funny that you're saying Afania is the main culprit that made the shield WAR kills stuff slower.

If I play shield WAR and do yorcia delve 6 NM run, I'd finish it slower.

Even if I made everyone on the server to invite my shield WAR, it doesn't change the fact that a shield WAR kills 6 NM slower.

No matter how hard I try, I can't change the game mechanic, it_just_kills_slower.

It doesn't matter if I get invite or not, the game simply punishes anyone for playing WAR with a shield, cuz the formula determining the dmg output is lower if the player equip a shield.

So why it's player's fault that role players got punished? Obviously it's the game mechanic and the formula that's punishing anyone trying to equip a shield on their WAR.

So no, free will doesn't exist in this game. My definition of free will means "free to make choices with 0 sacrifice". In FFXI if I want to play a shield WAR, I sacrifice my time, and 5 other pt member's time with slower kill speed.

[Dale]

I find it funny that you're saying Afania is the main culprit that made the shield WAR kills stuff slower.

If I play shield WAR and do yorcia delve 6 NM run, I'd finish it slower.

Even if I made everyone on the server to invite my shield WAR, it doesn't change the fact that a shield WAR kills 6 NM slower.

No matter how hard I try, I can't change the game mechanic, it_just_kills_slower.

It doesn't matter if I get invite or not, the game simply punishes me if I want to play WAR with a shield, cuz the formula determining the dmg output is lower if I equip a shield.

So why it's player's fault that role players got punished?

I didn't say you personally were the main culprit. I said players like you were. Those who are obsessed with spread sheets and dps and completing content as quickly as possible and think any job that doesn't contribute to that aim sucks and is just a leech and slows the party down.

Not all of us are care if something takes a couple more minutes to complete. We play MMORPGs to have fun and create an individualized character we enjoy playing. And players can accomplish this goal while still having success in the game. That was my point.

So again: it's not the game that punishes other players. It's players like you who for some reason expect the rest of us to play the game for the same reasons you do else you refuse to group with us. Which is your right. And to be honest I don't want to group with players with such a mentality anyway. I was just correcting you when you say it's the game that punishes players for not being as " efficient " as possible. Because it's not. The game design is solid and allows for all kinds of different play-styles to succeed.

[Afania]

I didn't say you personally were the main culprit. I said players like you were. Those who are obsessed with spread sheets and dps and completing content as quickly as possible and think any job that doesn't contribute to that aim sucks and is just a leech and slows the party down.

Not all of us are care if something takes a couple more minutes to complete. We play MMORPGs to have fun and create an individualized character we enjoy playing. And players can accomplish this goal while still having success in the game. That was my point.

So again: it's not the game that punishes other players. It's players like you who for some reason expect the rest of us to play the game for the same reasons you do else you refuse to group with us. Which is your right. And to be honest I don't want to group with players with such a mentality anyway. I was just correcting you when you say it's the game that punishes players for not being as efficient as possible. Because it's not. The game design is solid and allows for all kinds of different play-styles to succeed.

I added an extra sentence from my last post. I think we have different opinion toward "free will".

If I need to sacrifice something or waste other's time because I choose to play the job in a certain way, then it's not free will.

The game allows all kinds of different playstyle, true. It also punishes the majority of the playstyle due to it's ineffectiveness.

[Dale]

I added an extra sentence from my last post. I think we have different opinion toward "free will".

If I need to sacrifice something or hurt the others because I choose to play the job in a certain way, then it's not free will.

The game allows all kinds of different playstyle, true. It also punishes the majority of the playstyle due to it's ineffectiveness.

No it doesn't. If I'm attempting to kill a NM on my Red Mage for example but can't and a warrior who uses a shield comes along and helps me kill it guess what, I wasn't punished for it. In fact it helped me. The fact a warrior using a Great Axe may have helped me kill it faster doesn't mean I was punished because a warrior who used a shield helped me instead.

You have a very strange idea about what being punished is.

[Afania]

No it doesn't. If I'm attempting to kill a NM on my Red Mage for example but can't and a warrior who uses a shield comes along and helps me kill it guess what, I wasn't punished for it. In fact it helped me. The fact a warrior using a Great Axe may have helped me kill it faster doesn't mean I was punished because a warrior who used a shield helped me instead.

You have a very strange idea about what being punished is.

More like you have a very strange idea about what being punished is.....

If I can do yorcia in 15~20 min with 3 proper DD, then we change job to 3 shield WAR and spend 30+ min instead, I wasted 10~15 min because we want to role play.

So what's the point to change job to a shield WAR just because we like it? We got punished by spending more time.

[Dale]

More like you have a very strange idea about what being punished is.....

If I can do yorcia in 15~20 min with 3 proper DD, then we change job to 3 shield WAR and spend 30+ min instead, I wasted 10~15 min because we want to role play.

So what's the point to change job to a shield WAR just because we like it? We only got punished by spending more time.

No it's more like you do.

In your eyes unless someone helps you the fastest they are somehow punishing you. So I guess if someone gave you a lift to work they would be punishing you unless they drove you to work in a Ferrari or something. It's just ludicrous. And heaven forbid players role play on a role playing game.

[detlef]

Fighting a soloable NM and having a random person join in to speed things is up is just slightly different from doing a Yorcia Delve run.

[Dale]

Fighting a soloable NM and having a random person join in to speed things is up is just slightly different from doing a Yorcia Delve run.

It wasn't a soloable NM in that example I gave. I needed help to defeat it. That was the whole point.

And none of my comments have been about Yorcia Deleve runs. If you don't want to take a warrior with a shield to one of your Yorcia Delve Runs then don't. But that doesn't mean you have to be annoyed by warriors who use shields or suggest they should never join any content outside of role-playing. That's what I am talking about here. So we are talking about different things.

[Byrth]

I am pretty confident that good players could beat normal mode fights with decent gear despite playing inefficiently. It would not shock me in the least to see a bunch of WHM/NINs meleeburn every N fight and probably quite a few D ones too. Or shield WARs and bow SAM/RNGs. However, there is absolutely no incentive to shout for such a player.

There is a major lack of organizers in the NA community on Lakshmi right now, to the extent that I get people joining my shouts regularly without comments because they just have nothing else to do. It is a shouter's market, so why shout for or accept a pink THF that offhands Ridll because he wrestled it from the clutches of the mighty wyrm Fafnir? Might as well get someone else and ensure that the other 6 players in your group have a better experience as a result.