[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Kensagaku]

...You two are rather enamored with the last word, aren't you? 10+ pages of derailment off-track and yet you two both vie for the same stupid point. If it matters so much, take it to a messenger or something, don't clutter up more threads with your stubborn refusal to budge. You both have opinions, and that's that. What happened to the "Job Adjustments" thread?

[Dale]

...You two are rather enamored with the last word, aren't you? 10+ pages of derailment off-track and yet you two both vie for the same stupid point. If it matters so much, take it to a messenger or something, don't clutter up more threads with your stubborn refusal to budge. You both have opinions, and that's that. What happened to the "Job Adjustments" thread?

Look, threads often veer into multiple topics. That should be expected. Though I feel our debate has important links to the spirit of this topic because many of the job adjustments being asked for are designed to combat the issue me and her are debating.

All I can tell you is if you find my posts irritating put me on ignore. I won't hold it against you (and if that sounds arrogant it wasn't meant to be).

[detlef]

All I can tell you is if you find my posts irritating put me on ignore. I won't hold it against you (and if that sounds arrogant it wasn't meant to be).

That's not fair. Only some of your posts are idiotic, not all of them. I'm pretty sure I've agreed completely with some of our other posts in other threads.

[Dale]

That's not fair. Only some of your posts are idiotic, not all of them. I'm pretty sure I've agreed completely with some of our other posts in other threads.

How was I being unfair?

I simply said if my posts irritate you to simply place me on ignore. Seems pretty fair to me.

Anyway, if you like some of my posts but don't like others - you can simply skip over the ones I write you don't agree with then. But my point is, trying to moderate me and tell me when I should be quiet and when I shouldn't be isn't going to work.

[mattkoko]

Anyway, if you like some of my posts but don't like others - you can simply skip over the ones I write you don't agree with then.

So basically you are saying, "agree with me or gtfo."

[Afania]

Because it is your behavior I am talking about. Excluding me from your group because I wanted to use my sword and shield instead of a great sword is what you said you would do.

And I don't know these others you are talking about and they aren't here to defend themselves. So it's impossible for me to direct my argument at them. All I can say to you is you shouldn't let others people dictate how you treat people. You should treat them as you feel you should. Because peer pressure can have nasty consequences and people should rise above it.

This isn't just "peer pressure", having expectation is how rl works. If I'm not contributing enough in a company, my boss would fire me. If I'm not providing good service to my client, my client look for someone else for the service. I'm not sure why'd FFXI be any different since it's still played by real players.

Again, if you don't want expectations, go play with friends or offline game. If you work with strangers, it's normal to have expectations.

I also don't undersatnd why it's such a big deal that other groups exclude a sword and shield DD in their group. Is it really that much to ask to unequip a shield? I give instructions a lot more than "don't equip a shield" all the time, if you refuse to follow this simple direction, how'd you follow other directions?

...You two are rather enamored with the last word, aren't you? 10+ pages of derailment off-track and yet you two both vie for the same stupid point. If it matters so much, take it to a messenger or something, don't clutter up more threads with your stubborn refusal to budge. You both have opinions, and that's that. What happened to the "Job Adjustments" thread?

This forum has no PM function though.......Although Dale is welcomed to PM my FFXIAH account if he wants to continue.

[Dale]

This isn't just "peer pressure", having expectation is how rl works. If I'm not contributing enough in a company, my boss would fire me. If I'm not providing good service to my client, my client look for someone else for the service. I'm not sure why'd FFXI be any different since it's still played by real players.
.

The problem with your analogy is that they are contributing enough.

I can contribute enough damage with my Paladin while using a sword and shield that the run will still be a success. So you want to fire me not because I am stopping the company from being successful - but because I am not living up to your own personal expectations that I should be using a Great Sword instead.

That's the difference.

[Afania]

The problem with your analogy is that they are contributing enough.

I can contribute enough damage with my Paladin while using a sword and shield that the run will still be a success. So you want to fire me not because I am stopping the company from being successful - but because I am not living up to your own personal expectations that I should be using a Great Sword instead.

That's the difference.

A company would fire ppl for more than 1 reason, even if they're making money.

For example, they'd fire ppl if that person doesn't follow direction, or when they have a better replacement. In this case, I can always go on and proceed to invite another DD that actually follows leader's direction. It doesn't matter if I can win with a shield PLD or not....I can still choose to invite someone else for a better result.

Again, this is barely a zomg terrible negative behavior, many ppl do it irl and in game all the time.

[Dale]

A company would fire ppl for more than 1 reason, even if they're making money.

For example, they'd fire ppl if that person doesn't follow direction, or when they have a better replacement. In this case, I can always go on and proceed to invite another DD that actually follow leader's direction.

That's irrelevant to my point.

If you want to kick people out of the group because they aren't following your directions or you have a better replacement then that's your prerogative. But you can't claim you are kicking my paladin out of your group because he isn't contributing enough damage to win when he is.

Again, that's the difference.

[Seillan]

This isn't just "peer pressure", having expectation is how rl works. If I'm not contributing enough in a company, my boss would fire me. If I'm not providing good service to my client, my client look for someone else for the service. I'm not sure why'd FFXI be any different since it's still played by real players.

Again, if you don't want expectations, go play with friends or offline game. If you work with strangers, it's normal to have expectations.

I also don't undersatnd why it's such a big deal that other groups exclude a sword and shield DD in their group. Is it really that much to ask to unequip a shield? I give instructions a lot more than "don't equip a shield" all the time, if you refuse to follow this simple direction, how'd you follow other directions?

I guess what I can't personally understand is how you can take a video game so effing seriously. You liken it to working a job or "providing good service to a client," but... it's a video game. It's made to be used as a form of entertainment, a way to relax after work, an escape from reality -- not a place to re-live all the RL bullsh*t and pressures many of us are trying try escape. Honestly, and don't take this personally, but the mindset that you seem to be advocating here and explaining as the "facts of FFXI" just make me want to give up on the game. There are so many cool things about the FFXI universe, and I'd like to experience everything, but the more I read about how seemingly terrible things get in end-game and how strict and uptight people seem to get about doing everything in just a few cookie-cutter ways (going by your testimony here) the less I'm inclined to continue logging in. I'd have to agree with Dale that that kind of attitude is likely a big part of the reason that these "job adjustment" arguments are even raised to begin with, seeing as how the min/max players you refer to in your posts have such a narrow-minded view of how the game should be played, which jobs are considered "worthless," which play-styles are "effective, etc. You say these are just facts on how the game works, but if it's actually possible to complete the same content with varying "worthless" jobs and different play-styles (as Dale has attested), then how is it a "fact?" Is it slower to progress that way? No doubt. But ultimately, in the end, what does it really matter? I'd much rather have something take an extra 20 minutes and be fun, rather than having it go quicker with a class/job that I hate. I would think I'm not alone in that sentiment.

I'm not saying you're wrong here -- as I'm sure you wouldn't be making these arguments if they weren't your actual experiences in-game with PUGs and such -- but I will say that it's a depressing thing to read. I just wish these games were about fun again and not about being some pseudo-second job, with spreadsheets, and maximizing numbers, and status reports, and meters to make sure that the peons are all running optimally in their hamster wheels at all times, etc. Ugh. I just want to relax, play, and have fun on a class/job I enjoy but it seems that's practically viewed as a crime these days depending on the job, or consequently, the way that job is played. I feel that the importance some people put on efficiency is honestly to a fault. I mean, when you're lying on your death bed in the twilight years of your life, who's going to care how many extra incremental dps points your managed to squeeze out of a random rotation during a run in a game? It's just sweating the small stuff, in my eyes.

Anyway, I don't want to spur on another argument, so I'll let this be my last post on the subject. It all comes down to what people consider to be fun, and we all have our own definitions and opinions of it. I just wanted to share mine.