Aegis > RUN

[saevel]

I gotta take issue with your definition of a Tank, aka meatshield. Your #1 is absolutely right, spot on, but incomplete, it's #2 where we have the issues big issues, #3 is a given.

#1 is incomplete in that the job of a tank is to hold hate off EVERYONE, not just the squishy backliners, part of that is because the players changed who those backliners are. But #2, the tank is not the killer in a party (unless your pt is just you and a healer), the DD/nukers/range attackers are. Of course, this is where I talk about the change in backliners; old partys the backliners usually included a nuker or a ranger or more than 1 but these days the backline is usually just healer(s) and/or support jobs because the players have shifted DD almost solely on to melee DD, and this has played holy hell with tanking due to the way enmity is calculated. If you are a blm or rng these days and you can get partys then it's probably good friends unless there is a proc issue, it's just that major of a change. That's why we ended up with EVA tanks a few years ago in the 1st place, pld-and to some extent nins-simply couldn't do enough to hold hate in the face of the Zerg jobs. #3 is just obvious, if you are one less guy the healer has to work on the pt will just move along that much smoother.

But I don't think the flaws are solely in the job-although rune being rolled out without viable end-game gear and merits means we are at least temporarily flawed-but in the hate system itself. Now, if my count is right we haven't had the 3 adjustments to the hate system that were mentioned, and if what has been rolled out so far is any indication even 3 aren't going to make tanking any more viable as a strat, they'll need more. I don't claim to know the answer, the only possibility I can see is to uncap hate on pld, nin and rune, but then the people who have grown to like eva tanks-playing or playing with-will probably scream bloody murder ("I built this bleeping eva set and now it's useless <insert ragequit rant here>"), and I'm not even sure that will work considering our current damage output.

As to your DW comments earlier, that is NOT the only viable possibility. Making GS our primary weapon is fine IF SE does something to beef our numbers with it OR introduces Rune only GS, or rune only grips that do major special things. That IS a viable option, and considering their current plans of fixing most inherrent flaws through gear rather than job fixes (see the "fix pets" threads as an example), it may well be the way they choose to go. Mind you, I don't agree with fixing job flaws that are native with gear that has to be acquired (a job SHOULD be able to be viable just on the build of the job), gear should just be a nice addition to a good base platform.

All that being said, rune is flawed as a tank, even though that was SE's expressed intent in the design phase for us. We have 1 tool for major hate, Flash. Pld has cures, cover, FLASH, etc. while we have Regens and refresh, which simply don't generate much. Nin has Yonin and shadows (ok, that's an enmity decay thing, still a factor) and a higher DPS-good ones can still eva tank, we have Blink and spikes. SJ abilities don't count, especially since any job in the game can get those, so theoretically a brd/war could tank as well as rune/war, and that would hold hate what, 3 seconds at the outside? So SE has some work to do if thier job concept is to see fruition.

Incorrect, very very incorrect.

Tanks do not hold hate off front line melee's, they can't. Front line DPS will always spike enmity during their damage routines and then themselves take damage, that is why front liners tend to wear heavier armor then back liners. The difference is that front line DPS won't hold hate all the time (at least in a properly balanced MMO). They can take a few hits and still survive, the paper thin mages on the other hand are easily obliterated. You can lose DPS's and still continue the fight, you can't lose the support crew without a wipe happening. The primary job of the tank is to keep the monsters attention off the support crew, the melee's must learn to fend for themselves.

#2 is exactly right. The sooner a monster is dead the less chance it has of wiping you, in many MMO's there is a timer on the fight and once that timer expires you lose. Killing is a secondary role though and that's why the word "feasible" was used instead of "as soon as possible". Melee's kill the target, the tank just contributes as much as they can while still keeping it off the mages. In FFXI those two goals end up being the same due to the broke enmity system (damage = hate).

The reason #3 is behind the other two is that a brick wall tank taking 0 damage is absolutely useless if the healer is still at near full MP. #3 does not need to be done to the fullest, only to the extend that the healers resources are not depleted before the fight is finished, faster you finish the fight the less chance of them running out.

SE's concept of RUN is flawed, pure and simple. It doesn't reduce damage anymore then any heavy DD job, and that's a fact nobody can argue. Lots of PDT/MDT gear exists in this game, and melee can strap it on and suddenly their getting hit for half the damage they were before. That makes RUN's "magic defenses" utterly useless for actual strategy.

So you have a light armor low attack job wielding a weapon that requires lots of attack to be effective, so their immediately disqualified as a melee. They can't hold hate, at all, due to FFXI's enmity system being entirely balanced around damage, which as previously stated they suck at doing. Finally their damage mitigation capabilities also suck and their quickly flattened by anything remotely threatening. Seriously "tanking" old content while your dual box a WHM isn't impressive, hell my RDM can do that with ease. Hold one or two delve NM's during a standard plasm run, or the minions spawned by high tier voidwatch NMs, then come back and tell us about your success. After all the #1 "tank" job in the game is only used for that, and if we're not using the #1 tank job for tanking then why in the hell would we use the #5 "tank" job.

[Yinnyth]

Run's problems with Multi element caster mobs, SE how do you plan on dealing with this?? Every runs stomach drops when he see the mob move from one -aga IV to a different element -aga IV. SP IMO is worthless, it doesn't ever save my ass, the mob is mixing it up he just doesn't sit there and cast magic he's also smacking you in the face. Aegis is so great because with pld invincibility SP together they only will take 1/8 damage from magic attacks. There is nothing run can do to get this much damage mitigation.

I would love if they gave RUN a spell that gives them a short-term, massive MDB boost. Just 10 seconds of MDB+100. Or better yet, a spell they cast on the mob which halves the magic damage they do for 5-10 seconds. Would really help to deal with that "oh crap, he's casting something I don't have runes up for right now" moment.

[Cljader1]

I would love if they gave RUN a spell that gives them a short-term, massive MDB boost. Just 10 seconds of MDB+100. Or better yet, a spell they cast on the mob which halves the magic damage they do for 5-10 seconds. Would really help to deal with that "oh crap, he's casting something I don't have runes up for right now" moment.

I agree run needs new original magic, for one run should have reflect, its been in the dats for years. Make's me wonder what did SE design run for? is it to tank the new Adoulin context, and more specifically tank during delve runs. Afterall, that's when SE decided to release the job. I find it ironic that run was release with the adoulin context and yet the new tank job cant survive and hold those nms. SE if your going to make a tank job that almost completely ignores the physical side along with paper bag defense, then it needs to gain its strength when the mobs cast magic. Run at the very least should be a walking breathing human aegis shield.

[Yinnyth]

I agree run needs new original magic, for one run should have reflect, its been in the dats for years. Make's me wonder what did SE design run for?

The difficulty is that we usually wind up playing things in ways that SE never really designed them for. Best laid plans, or some junk like that.

Ninja was never intended to be a tank, it was supposed to be subtle, low enmity, survivable damage and enfeebles. Best thing about pup? Its ability to deaggro stuff. Embrava and perfect defense conquered the world and SE eventually had to put their foot down and say "look guys, we never really thought these things would be used to defeat every event ever to the point that they're mandatory, so... we're taking them down a notch."

So it's less a matter of what SE intends RUN to be, and more a matter of what we can get RUN to do. Which right now... isn't that much. I do enjoy playing it though, I must admit.

[Cljader1]

So it's less a matter of what SE intends RUN to be, and more a matter of what we can get RUN to do. Which right now... isn't that much. I do enjoy playing it though, I must admit.

I enjoy playing it to, of course I would love to see these types of shouts "Plasm farming, 17/18 Tank, Can I have it, Run or Pld, Please send tell" and I know this is way off from reality.

[Babekeke]

I agree run needs new original magic, for one run should have reflect, its been in the dats for years.

The main problem with reflect for RUN, is it's primary use right now is vs mobs that only cast 1 element. Generally mobs that only cast 1 element are very strong to, or even absorb that 1 element, making reflect useless. To be worthwhile, it would have to be a flash-type buff. And by that I mean, 0.5 seconds casting time, 5-10 seconds duration, self-target, high enmity. Main use would be to reflect a spell that you're un-prepared for (wrong runes, wrong ward, OFA not up etc.

It's possible that they go down the route of SCH for AF1, and we do get a unique spell instead of a weapon/ammo.

Make's me wonder what did SE design run for? is it to tank the new Adoulin context, and more specifically tank during delve runs. Afterall, that's when SE decided to release the job. I find it ironic that run was release with the adoulin context and yet the new tank job cant survive and hold those nms. SE if your going to make a tank job that almost completely ignores the physical side along with paper bag defense, then it needs to gain its strength when the mobs cast magic. Run at the very least should be a walking breathing human aegis shield.

The trouble that I have with everyone comparing run to an Aeigis PLD... is that Aegis is a relic.

Can you imagine how p155ed off every aegis owner would be if RUN stepped onto the scene, no merits, no AF/relic/empy gear, no mythic/relic/empy weapon, and was on par with an aegis PLD for tanking magical NMs.

What RUN needs to get a niche tanking role, is more mobs like the ACP boss which hit like a truck, but melee attacks were considered magical damage. As I recall, they were AOE too. That would be brilliant as far as I can see, RUN would be just about the only job capable of getting close to the mob. What I don't remember is whether it had an element to it's attacks. This would obviously be preferable for RUN.

Alternatively, mobs with low damage high-speed attacks, but high en-spell damage. Obviously Aegis would also be good for this, but RUN would be an alternative option.

[Yinnyth]

The trouble that I have with everyone comparing run to an Aeigis PLD... is that Aegis is a relic.

Can you imagine how p155ed off every aegis owner would be if RUN stepped onto the scene, no merits, no AF/relic/empy gear, no mythic/relic/empy weapon, and was on par with an aegis PLD for tanking magical NMs.

Ragnarok is a relic too, and RUN already gets access to something which puts them on par with Ragnarok DDs. But if that's what it takes to get RUN up to where it's competitive with Aegis PLD, sure, let's give RUN a relic grip which is as amazing as Aegis is. I'd be ok with putting the same effort into my RUN to make it more effective. It's just that there's no such path available currently.

[Sfchakan]

I'm not reading the rest of this thread (stopped 5-6 posts in).

I'm so, so terribly sorry your new job without it's JSE and merits isn't as good as a fully geared job with a RELIC item.

Get real, guys.

[Zagen]

The trouble that I have with everyone comparing run to an Aeigis PLD... is that Aegis is a relic.

The thing is it takes Aegis for a PLD to call itself a good tank against magical damage or rather a "magical tank" you know what RUN was pitched to be. On top of not only mitigating a good amount of magical damage the fact that the shield is a size 5 with 60-70% block rate goes pretty far in reducing all physical damage taken something RUN can't do.

I agree that we needed ACP boss type mobs, though I think that was non-elemental damage. Even if we're both remembering the mechanics incorrectly RUN needed a mob that deals elemental magic damage and not non-elemental when meleeing to be worth anything.

It's like SE has no communication between the job design team and the end game design team which is odd considering FFXI is run by a skeleton crew atm and those design decisions were likely made by some of the same people. I mean who came up with Gabbrath family and decided it's melee would be physical damage instead of fire element magic damage? Almost as though SE wanted RUN to fail as a magical tank.

Maybe we're the naive ones expecting RUN to be worth anything as a tank without it's mythic weapon since it won't be getting a relic or emp weapon.

I'm not reading the rest of this thread (stopped 5-6 posts in).

I'm so, so terribly sorry your new job without it's JSE and merits isn't as good as a fully geared job with a RELIC item.

Get real, guys.

It's not as good as any job at any role... Aegis PLD was used because that's what you look at when you need a tank that can eat a lot of magical damage and RUN was pitched as a magical tank.

GEO says hi. No Artifact/Relic/Emp/Mythic and already has places in small and large man groups. Maybe you should have actually read the whole thread as this has been pointed out already.

[Cljader1]

I'm not reading the rest of this thread (stopped 5-6 posts in).

I'm so, so terribly sorry your new job without it's JSE and merits isn't as good as a fully geared job with a RELIC item.

Get real, guys.

Since you only read 5 posts your ignorance might be excused.