Aegis > RUN

[Duelle]

I love how your comparing it to PLD, I mean it's so far off being a main tank atm that a DRK with an Apoc is a better tank atm.

Either way, until AF,emp gear, merits are added to RUN it's hard to say it'll never be a tank.

Having to wait until AF(1,2,3) and merits to even attempt to make the job tank-worthy is a losing proposition.

You can give then Enmity +100 and they still wouldn't be a "tank". The job is fundamentally borked and would need a major PUP & SCH level redesign to be that. Not saying that SE can't go back to the drawing board, they did twice already, but if they did whatever came out would only vaguely resemble what we have now. That's why I mentioned turning them into a non-elemental type melee. There are fights they would end up "tanking" so to speak if only because they would be dealing so much more damage then anyone else the monster would have no choice but to pay attention to them. Previously entire strats were build around DRK's using twilight scyth to bypass -PDT and other damage restrictions, that's a big enough niche for a job like RUN to fit right into.

I'd rather SE fix RUN over clinging to SE's poorly-worded description. There's no MMO player out there that would look at RUN's description and not think the job is intended to be a tank; a tank with a "takes less damage from magic" gimmick (trust me, it certainly isn't a new concept).

As an aside, the fact they're focusing so much on Geomancer is very much cause for concern, IMO.

[Babekeke]

Okay effectively mitigate damage from 1 element at a time. Hell your own example shows how RUN could poorly reduce the damage of up to 4 types of magic for 3/5 minutes. Someone mentioned Abyssea earlier and honestly that's the only place where RUN can tank based on what it currently has as native defensive capabilities. Yay a tank for 3 year old content...

Nothing a RUN currently has to offer is of any value as a tank, dd, or support when compared to other jobs filling those roles.

It's a fun job but that sure as hell doesn't make it magically work at what we were told it was going to do. The job is lacking sorely and if it was supposed to be a magical tank it sure as hell should be more useful than an Aegis PLD (I'm not even talking full time -87.5% MDT for a given element).

It works fine to tank any level 99 content, not just abyssea. It also deals a lot more damage while doing so than an Aegis PLD. Also for that great -MDT, a PLD needs 23% -MDT from gear other than the shield. A RUN only needs -14%. So you can cap it with 2 rings.

If once we get merits, AF, relic and empy gear we're still completely useless to tank in SoA, then SE has made terrible errors, but until then I'll hold out hope.

Also, an Aegis (at today's prices) costs at least 130mil to get to 99. I'm pretty sure that after spending 130 mil on RUN, it would be much better.

[Zagen]

It works fine to tank any level 99 content, not just abyssea. It also deals a lot more damage while doing so than an Aegis PLD. Also for that great -MDT, a PLD needs 23% -MDT from gear other than the shield. A RUN only needs -14%. So you can cap it with 2 rings.

If once we get merits, AF, relic and empy gear we're still completely useless to tank in SoA, then SE has made terrible errors, but until then I'll hold out hope.

Also, an Aegis (at today's prices) costs at least 130mil to get to 99. I'm pretty sure that after spending 130 mil on RUN, it would be much better.

Now you're just being obtuse...Working fine on easy level 99 content is pointless, why should I go on RUN when I could go on "insert DD job" instead and kill X faster. Take RUN to tank Tojil let me know how that works out... That's a NM that Aegis PLD tanks.

AF, Relic, and Emp gear would have to be some of the most broken equipment ever created to bring RUN up to what it was pitched as being.

You could have Rank 15 Delve (currently the only way to blow gil kinda on RUN) gear for RUN and you know what that does? It makes it a less weak DD, unimproved support, and still isn't tanking better than a PLD because even if you opted for evasion path giving you essentially +120 evasion you won't be evading enough to negate the physical damage to the degree ochain or aegis does.

[Kojo]

No, that's another one of those misunderstandings people have. SE never said anything about RUN holding hate, they just mentioned that it would take reduced elemental damage. SE doesn't know what a tank is.

A tanks' job is the following
#1 Hold Hate off squishy back liners
#2 Kill Target as quick as feasible
#3 Reducing damage to conserve healer resources

Prior to the term "tank" being used it was known as "meat shield" in D&D and then Everquest. It was a heavy armor wearing melee that would keep the target monster busy and away from the soft squishy cloth wearing mages. SE (and the intellectually challenged) somehow confuse a melee with defense properties for a "tank".

Now according to the above universal tanking requirements, as set forth ages ago by the first party orientated game, RUN does not fit any of those. their sole defensive ability is they can get high magic evasion towards one element of magic while still being vulnerable to the other seven. Congrats your worse then an evasion stacking NIN tanking Byakko in 2005.

SE has a way of not explicitly saying things like "This is Rune Fencer, it's a tank class." but the way its was worded and compared to PLD and NIN on the official website pretty much screams "Tank job" to anyone who didn't spend their teen years huffing paint fumes. This is not D&D, nor is it Everquest, the mechanics are different in every game and your little "SE doesn't know what a tank is" when they are the company who designed the game, it comes off as arrogant.

RUN and GEO aren't yet complete...

[Babekeke]

Now you're just being obtuse...Working fine on easy level 99 content is pointless, why should I go on RUN when I could go on "insert DD job" instead and kill X faster. Take RUN to tank Tojil let me know how that works out... That's a NM that Aegis PLD tanks.

AF, Relic, and Emp gear would have to be some of the most broken equipment ever created to bring RUN up to what it was pitched as being.

You could have Rank 15 Delve (currently the only way to blow gil kinda on RUN) gear for RUN and you know what that does? It makes it a less weak DD, unimproved support, and still isn't tanking better than a PLD because even if you opted for evasion path giving you essentially +120 evasion you won't be evading enough to negate the physical damage to the degree ochain or aegis does.

This is still the most stupid argument ever.

To put this argument into comparison, it's the same as saying "Ukon War > non-r/m/e/d <insert DD job here>"

[Zagen]

This is still the most stupid argument ever.

To put this argument into comparison, it's the same as saying "Ukon War > non-r/m/e/d <insert DD job here>"

You mean the same argument made for years about PLD not being a needed job? They regained a place while niche it's still more than RUN has now.

What exactly does RUN have that's unique and can't be replaced by another job?

As Duelle mentioned GEO (at least publicly) is getting much more polishing than RUN. The sad part about that is even without AF/Relic/Emp/Mythic GEO has already gained a position in small man and high end game events and it's incomplete.

[Glamdring]

No, that's another one of those misunderstandings people have. SE never said anything about RUN holding hate, they just mentioned that it would take reduced elemental damage. SE doesn't know what a tank is.

A tanks' job is the following
#1 Hold Hate off squishy back liners
#2 Kill Target as quick as feasible
#3 Reducing damage to conserve healer resources

Prior to the term "tank" being used it was known as "meat shield" in D&D and then Everquest. It was a heavy armor wearing melee that would keep the target monster busy and away from the soft squishy cloth wearing mages. SE (and the intellectually challenged) somehow confuse a melee with defense properties for a "tank".

Now according to the above universal tanking requirements, as set forth ages ago by the first party orientated game, RUN does not fit any of those. their sole defensive ability is they can get high magic evasion towards one element of magic while still being vulnerable to the other seven. Congrats your worse then an evasion stacking NIN tanking Byakko in 2005.

I gotta take issue with your definition of a Tank, aka meatshield. Your #1 is absolutely right, spot on, but incomplete, it's #2 where we have the issues big issues, #3 is a given.

#1 is incomplete in that the job of a tank is to hold hate off EVERYONE, not just the squishy backliners, part of that is because the players changed who those backliners are. But #2, the tank is not the killer in a party (unless your pt is just you and a healer), the DD/nukers/range attackers are. Of course, this is where I talk about the change in backliners; old partys the backliners usually included a nuker or a ranger or more than 1 but these days the backline is usually just healer(s) and/or support jobs because the players have shifted DD almost solely on to melee DD, and this has played holy hell with tanking due to the way enmity is calculated. If you are a blm or rng these days and you can get partys then it's probably good friends unless there is a proc issue, it's just that major of a change. That's why we ended up with EVA tanks a few years ago in the 1st place, pld-and to some extent nins-simply couldn't do enough to hold hate in the face of the Zerg jobs. #3 is just obvious, if you are one less guy the healer has to work on the pt will just move along that much smoother.

But I don't think the flaws are solely in the job-although rune being rolled out without viable end-game gear and merits means we are at least temporarily flawed-but in the hate system itself. Now, if my count is right we haven't had the 3 adjustments to the hate system that were mentioned, and if what has been rolled out so far is any indication even 3 aren't going to make tanking any more viable as a strat, they'll need more. I don't claim to know the answer, the only possibility I can see is to uncap hate on pld, nin and rune, but then the people who have grown to like eva tanks-playing or playing with-will probably scream bloody murder ("I built this bleeping eva set and now it's useless <insert ragequit rant here>"), and I'm not even sure that will work considering our current damage output.

As to your DW comments earlier, that is NOT the only viable possibility. Making GS our primary weapon is fine IF SE does something to beef our numbers with it OR introduces Rune only GS, or rune only grips that do major special things. That IS a viable option, and considering their current plans of fixing most inherrent flaws through gear rather than job fixes (see the "fix pets" threads as an example), it may well be the way they choose to go. Mind you, I don't agree with fixing job flaws that are native with gear that has to be acquired (a job SHOULD be able to be viable just on the build of the job), gear should just be a nice addition to a good base platform.

All that being said, rune is flawed as a tank, even though that was SE's expressed intent in the design phase for us. We have 1 tool for major hate, Flash. Pld has cures, cover, FLASH, etc. while we have Regens and refresh, which simply don't generate much. Nin has Yonin and shadows (ok, that's an enmity decay thing, still a factor) and a higher DPS-good ones can still eva tank, we have Blink and spikes. SJ abilities don't count, especially since any job in the game can get those, so theoretically a brd/war could tank as well as rune/war, and that would hold hate what, 3 seconds at the outside? So SE has some work to do if thier job concept is to see fruition.

[Yinnyth]

All that being said, rune is flawed as a tank, even though that was SE's expressed intent in the design phase for us. We have 1 tool for major hate, Flash.

I agree with most of the points you raised in your post besides the one I just quoted. Valiance, one for all, and foil all build decent amounts of hate. In addition to this, runes can be used for a steady stream of enmity if you're dealing with an enemy you just can't smack hard enough to keep his attention.

While it's true RUN could use something more than just this, I do hope they take a slightly less traditional route when attempting to fix it. Not that I would complain to have more straightforward hate tools, but it would be more interesting to have unique abilities such as an AoE buff RUN could give which siphons all hate generated by party members for 10 seconds directly to the RUN.

[Babekeke]

I agree with most of the points you raised in your post besides the one I just quoted. Valiance, one for all, and foil all build decent amounts of hate. In addition to this, runes can be used for a steady stream of enmity if you're dealing with an enemy you just can't smack hard enough to keep his attention.

Not to mention how useful Lunge can be vs an invincible mob, or 1 with very high -PDT.

[Cljader1]

Run's problems with Multi element caster mobs, SE how do you plan on dealing with this?? Every runs stomach drops when he see the mob move from one -aga IV to a different element -aga IV. SP IMO is worthless, it doesn't ever save my ass, the mob is mixing it up he just doesn't sit there and cast magic he's also smacking you in the face. Aegis is so great because with pld invincibility SP together they only will take 1/8 damage from magic attacks. There is nothing run can do to get this much damage mitigation.