New 2-hour Abilities

[Helel]

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

I don't understand how WAR's new 2-hour would be more powerful than mighty strikes if it worked on weapon skills considering mighty strikes already works on melee attacks and weapon skills? Something must have been mistranslated?

[Kari]

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

There ARE other ways that it can be used, you are correct. But they are all inferior to using Reverse Flourish 3 times. You would, ideally, use Climactic Flourish before this 2 hour. That buff would last long enough to add that crit effect to every WS you use with those Reverse Flourishes. Every other Flourish from there becomes worthless, because they will reduce your damage output.

The Developers have to realize, a lot of our Flourishes are WIDELY unused, because they are either not worth Finishing Moves + Cooldown, or are simply beaten by other flourishes. I can tell you, I never really use Desperate, Animated, Wild, Building, Striking, or Ternary Flourish, except to maybe proc in Dynamis in a few of their cases.

I highly suggest exploring ways to allow us to use multiple flourishes, or add something to this 2 hour. I don't want to lose the ability you've given us though, being able to Reverse 3 times is definitely an upside to what you've had before, but it's still missing a little something. Remember, we optimize everything you give us, you can't just say "Well if you avoid using this ability in the best way possible, it has many uses."

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

It's not about the reduction in attack power.
There is zero use for having stoneskin + cure on the master for a 2 hour, especially not at the cost of your pet.
Like I said before, this 2 hour would still be worthless even if your pet was kept alive. Nobody needs this on BST. Ever.

[Babekeke]

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
Longer duration.

DNC:
Already improved.

BST:
Already improved (though still useless)

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

RDM:
This ability is indeed terrible, but since noone plays RDM for real end-game events, we're not interested.

That's how I read it.

[Byrth]

...
WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

As I said before and Insaniak pointed out again, this is just not correct. What you've made is a 2-hour that's inferior to Tomahawk + Mighty Strikes, and Tomahawk's effect extends to the entire party and would be desired in the same situations. Are we supposed to use this when we're solo zerging Jailer of Temperance in the wrong mode?

Currently, with a 50% TP/WS split and crits doubling damage, both of which are estimations in favor of the new 2-hour for events like Legion, the monster would need 96% PDT for the new 2-hour to be superior to Mighty Strikes (Tomahawk used in both cases). Under more realistic conditions the new 2-hour is probably never superior. If you changed it so WSs are also affected, the monster would need 71% PDT for the new 2-hour to be superior to Mighty Strikes.

As it currently stands the new 2-hour is good only for cases of almost total physical immunity. If you changed it to include WSs the world would not fall apart, but we could use it in a few more cases.

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

I figured that would be your response. Functionally, though, the best thing you can do with this 2-hour is make a really long skillchain or (for anything involving a party) do three WSs back to back. You may have to waste one of your 2-hour Flourishes to re-apply Climactic Flourish depending on how many hits get through, but I think it can be done with good enough timing:

Party: Climactic Flourish (5 FM) -> Rudra's Storm -> No Foot Rise (4 FM) -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> 2-hour -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm

Again, though you hype the versatility of this 2-hour it's actually fairly limited. Here's why:

1) Reverse is clearly our best damage option, whether starting/continuing a skillchain or going solo. Wild has some potential if you're low on FMs (aka not while using this 2-hour) and solo, but with 5 FMs there's no reason to use anything but Reverse. Building isn't even in the picture unless you're fighting very very difficult monsters (where no one would bring a Dancer due to level correction killing 1H damage).

2) Even though you've reduced the timer, we still cannot use multiple Tier 3 Flourishes (not that we'd want to even if we could) because they are all exclusive with each other. If you use Ternary with Climactic up, Climactic is overwritten, etc.

3) Flourishes I is still not very useful. Why would I want to use 3 Desperate Flourishes in a row when Rudra's gives a more powerful form of Gravity? Why would I want to use three Animated Flourishes in a row when I could just hit the monster and get more enmity in the same amount of time? Why would I want to activate my 2-hour (which takes a second) so that I can use Violent Flourish three times in a row? Is there some monster I'm fighting that's resistant (but not immune) to my Stun effect that uses a long charge-time TP move or spell that I only need to stun once every 2 hours?


There is definitely still room for improvement, but I'll take a dagger version of Meikyo Shisui over the previous (totally useless) 2-hour. Still, please realize that what you've given us is just an inferior version of Meikyo Shisui, which lasts longer (if for some reason that was an issue), grants ~4 WSs instead of 3 with the augmented armor, and gives 300/225/150 TP WSs instead of ~100TP WSs. Also, they're using a GKT instead of a dagger and don't have to rely on another buff to make their WSs do decent damage.

[Calysto]

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

like everyone said since your post, still no other choice would beat the fake sam 2h as the only viable options are for damage dealing.
also, since the flourishes 3, the dev team seems to have forgotten that dnc was supposed to be somewhat of a support job, not just another DD.

[Shadax]

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

I can honestly say in the 3 or so years I've been playing BST, I have never once encountered a situation such as this and if you do, then you are fighting something you shouldn't be and this will only delay the inevitable or you have no idea how BST works. Something tells me the devs are the latter.

[Zirael]

As I said before and Insaniak pointed out again, this is just not correct. What you've made is a 2-hour that's inferior to Tomahawk + Mighty Strikes, and Tomahawk's effect extends to the entire party and would be desired in the same situations. Are we supposed to use this when we're solo zerging Jailer of Temperance in the wrong mode?

Currently, with a 50% TP/WS split and crits doubling damage, both of which are estimations in favor of the new 2-hour for events like Legion, the monster would need 96% PDT for the new 2-hour to be superior to Mighty Strikes (Tomahawk used in both cases). Under more realistic conditions the new 2-hour is probably never superior. If you changed it so WSs are also affected, the monster would need 71% PDT for the new 2-hour to be superior to Mighty Strikes.

As it currently stands the new 2-hour is good only for cases of almost total physical immunity. If you changed it to include WSs the world would not fall apart, but we could use it in a few more cases.



I figured that would be your response. Functionally, though, the best thing you can do with this 2-hour is make a really long skillchain or (for anything involving a party) do three WSs back to back. You may have to waste one of your 2-hour Flourishes to re-apply Climactic Flourish depending on how many hits get through, but I think it can be done with good enough timing:

Party: Climactic Flourish (5 FM) -> Rudra's Storm -> No Foot Rise (4 FM) -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> 2-hour -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm

Again, though you hype the versatility of this 2-hour it's actually fairly limited. Here's why:

1) Reverse is clearly our best damage option, whether starting/continuing a skillchain or going solo. Wild has some potential if you're low on FMs (aka not while using this 2-hour) and solo, but with 5 FMs there's no reason to use anything but Reverse. Building isn't even in the picture unless you're fighting very very difficult monsters (where no one would bring a Dancer due to level correction killing 1H damage).

2) Even though you've reduced the timer, we still cannot use multiple Tier 3 Flourishes (not that we'd want to even if we could) because they are all exclusive with each other. If you use Ternary with Climactic up, Climactic is overwritten, etc.

3) Flourishes I is still not very useful. Why would I want to use 3 Desperate Flourishes in a row when Rudra's gives a more powerful form of Gravity? Why would I want to use three Animated Flourishes in a row when I could just hit the monster and get more enmity in the same amount of time? Why would I want to activate my 2-hour (which takes a second) so that I can use Violent Flourish three times in a row? Is there some monster I'm fighting that's resistant (but not immune) to my Stun effect that uses a long charge-time TP move or spell that I only need to stun once every 2 hours?


There is definitely still room for improvement, but I'll take a dagger version of Meikyo Shisui over the previous (totally useless) 2-hour. Still, please realize that what you've given us is just an inferior version of Meikyo Shisui, which lasts longer (if for some reason that was an issue), grants ~4 WSs instead of 3 with the augmented armor, and gives 300/225/150 TP WSs instead of ~100TP WSs. Also, they're using a GKT instead of a dagger and don't have to rely on another buff to make their WSs do decent damage.

You guys' dispute reminds me another, not long in the past, battle to unsuck Dancer. This day, anyone even remembers what Ternary Flourish is? When it was meant to be implemented and everyone was saing that it's useless/waste of development potential, Square Enix has replied with this:

As we have explained before, we hope you understand that Ternary Flourish was implemented with future growth in mind. We plan on strengthening this ability through equipment and merits, and we appreciate your patience as we do so.

We plan on adjusting all jobs, but our highest priorities right now are adjusting puppetmaster, corsair, scholar, dragoon, and warrior’s firepower. We will be working on these job adjustments in order of priority.

In response to a comment asking for Charis Casaque (+1 and +2) to apply to Ternary Flourish as well... if Charis Casaque (+1 and +2) also increased the effects of Ternary Flourish, they would be too powerful as gear items, so we do not plan on implementing those adjustments.

Also, Flourish-type abilities are not separated by rank or effectiveness, but are separated so that they are useful in different situations, so even if an item were to increase the effects of Ternary Flourish, the effects would not be exactly the same as "increasing the effects of Striking Flourish."

Please continue to offer up your feedback on how you want dancer to shine and we will use them as reference points when we think of support abilities for dancers.

Ternary Flourish is still useless, there was no merits/equipment ever added to make it worthwhile. Everyone just felt like their feedback got completely ignored.
Déjà vu.

[Siiri]

Why do people care so much about warrior? It is already far and away the most powerful melee. Let's worry about jobs that really could use a boost via a 2 hour, not making war more broken.

[Luvbunny]

They still do not get it AT ALL about why people play beastmaster. Please revise this god awful new 2 hours, we will never use it, it is totally utter worthless garbage. There is no way we are in a critical situation like this when there is dawn mulsum and pet food handy. EVER! If anything, this idea is a fantastic for job ability and a great improvement of run wild, you should add the stoneskin effect to run wild instead - we loose our pet, we gain stoneskin, enough protection to use another call beast ability.

[Demon6324236]

Why do people care so much about warrior? It is already far and away the most powerful melee. Let's worry about jobs that really could use a boost via a 2 hour, not making war more broken.

Because we don't like the devs adding stupid things. I would rather them add nothing at all instead of something stupid, at least then they don't waste their time. If they are going to make an ability, they need to do it right and make it good, maybe then they might realize what good ideas are and aren't.