New 2-hour Abilities

[Okipuit]

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

[Zirael]

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

Tomahawk

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

Dawn_Mulsum
Pet_Food_Theta_Biscuit

As a side note, there has been no mention about Thief 2-hour ability at all since the initial reveal weeks ago. We are unable to dispute it's uselessness in detail without any concrete information about it's parameters. Could you please tell us how terrible it is?

[Demon6324236]

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

Well, I look forward to your reply.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

I like some of what you said here, the last part to be specific. Longer duration is good, however this would be farm from better than Mighty Strikes if it worked on WSs, as Mighty Strikes works on WSs, and would dominate on anything without somewhat decent to high PDT. However when you last spoke of these abilities, you said you want to have them as situational use, in which case, would Mighty Strikes not be the better choice when a mob has no PDT? And couldn't the same be said for this new one when a mob does have high PDT? It seems as if adding the damage to WSs would only help to balance the situational use you wish it to have. Also...

The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect.

I hope you know how stupid this makes you sound. You are telling us that the effects of this ability that takes 2 hours to use again is basically the same as an ability that thats 10 minutes to use again. Also look at their duration, I am sure this will have a 1 Minute duration at most, to follow in line with others, where as Formless has 3 minute duration. So as I said, I hope you know just how stupid this makes you sound, and hope you think about revising it.

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

Ill give you this one, it is a nice 2-hour, however I still think it may be a bit to limiting.

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

You don't understand the flaw here it would seem. Please look at the first thing in your reply on this subject...

We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power.

This is not why the 2-hour is rejected by players, its because pets are used by BST for a defensive tool in almost all cases. It becomes the tank, and your essentially asking me to offer my tank, so that I can gain Stoneskin, which makes no sense because then I am the tank, because I lost my tank, and now I'm being hit instead, making me easier to kill really. Its like me dropping my Ephemeron, because I want a Swiftwing, your giving us something worse than we already had to protect us when we use this ability, not only that but we get this every 2 hours? Its just flawed, please, do something else. I am not a BST, but as I have said before, I think the way to go with this is add NM specific moves to all pets, and have them only usable by these pets under the effect of the new 2-hour. For instance, Mandragora family pets would gain access to Petalback Spin, nearly every family of mob in the game could have this sort of power, an ability only used by NMs of their family.

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

So long as you can give me your word we will not see this ability become worthless due to an early release, and it works out, I will have no problems. However please understand, I have my full attention on watching for any word on Enmity updates, because it is vital to how the game will function after they occur I think.

[Calamity]

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

And there's a good solid reason why our pet absolutely must be sacrificed? Other jobs 2hrs actually have effects that cancel the usage of tools and ammo and such. We lose a jug. Why?

[Zadimortis]

Hey everyone

Hey.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

This is not justifiable. As has been referenced repeatedly in this thread, Formless Strikes is a three minute duration ability of the same effect with a recast of ten minutes. To make this ability justifiable for Warriors to expend their two-hour timer on, the ability must be significantly more powerful in the hands of a Warrior, which it is only slightly (and even that is debatable). The point with regard to weapon skills making the ability more powerful than Mighty Strikes is true, I'm sure, but was suggested as an offset to make this ability more powerful than Formless Strikes. Do not forget that Mighty Strikes is compatible with weaponskills, and drastically increases their damage output too.

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

The player base has a tendency to optimize: whenever a 'versatile' system or ability with 'a lot of different uses' occurs in the game, the players will immediately optimize to the best route of that system for each desired role of the system. Surely the development team has seen the Bluegartr FFXI Advanced: The New Standard forum, no? Saying it has a "lot of different uses" is not justification for making any possible outcome of the ability weaker than the other option presented - Trance - in virtually any situation.

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

reduction in attack power

Well that's one way to put it. Though, props to the development team for providing an example situation, I know the forum-abiding player base has been requesting that for a while.

I'm starting to understand the developers' intentions behind this ability. Beastmaster is a primarily solo job, and yet it lacks in the way of crisis-averting, ass-saving abilities. But does that really make it justifiable for a two-hour?

(The answer is no, by the way.)

If this is the direction the development team wants to take the new Beastmaster 2-hour, there are a myriad of other options that would be vastly superior to this, many of which have already been suggested in the forums, so I will save my vast and boundless creativity.

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

The development team had better present some math when these enmity adjustments are finalized. The problems with the current enmity system are invisible without numbers to clarify what's going on behind the graphics.

(See that? My vast and boundless creativity, at work. Please, ladies, one at a time...)

Can we expect any comments on the Thief and Red Mage new two-hour abilities? I understand there is quite a bit of dissatisfaction in the test server player base with regard to those.

[Unaisis]

This is not justifiable. As has been referenced repeatedly in this thread, Formless Strikes is a three minute duration ability of the same effect with a recast of ten minutes. To make this ability justifiable for Warriors to expend their two-hour timer on, the ability must be significantly more powerful in the hands of a Warrior, which it is only slightly (and even that is debatable). The point with regard to weapon skills making the ability more powerful than Mighty Strikes is true, I'm sure, but was suggested as an offset to make this ability more powerful than Formless Strikes. Do not forget that Mighty Strikes is compatible with weaponskills, and drastically increases their damage output too.

Great! ; ; now that you pointed out that Mighty Strikes works with Weaponskills they gunna fix it now T__T. Bet they had no idea it did...

[Helel]

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

I don't understand how WAR's new 2-hour would be more powerful than mighty strikes if it worked on weapon skills considering mighty strikes already works on melee attacks and weapon skills? Something must have been mistranslated?

[Kari]

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

There ARE other ways that it can be used, you are correct. But they are all inferior to using Reverse Flourish 3 times. You would, ideally, use Climactic Flourish before this 2 hour. That buff would last long enough to add that crit effect to every WS you use with those Reverse Flourishes. Every other Flourish from there becomes worthless, because they will reduce your damage output.

The Developers have to realize, a lot of our Flourishes are WIDELY unused, because they are either not worth Finishing Moves + Cooldown, or are simply beaten by other flourishes. I can tell you, I never really use Desperate, Animated, Wild, Building, Striking, or Ternary Flourish, except to maybe proc in Dynamis in a few of their cases.

I highly suggest exploring ways to allow us to use multiple flourishes, or add something to this 2 hour. I don't want to lose the ability you've given us though, being able to Reverse 3 times is definitely an upside to what you've had before, but it's still missing a little something. Remember, we optimize everything you give us, you can't just say "Well if you avoid using this ability in the best way possible, it has many uses."

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

It's not about the reduction in attack power.
There is zero use for having stoneskin + cure on the master for a 2 hour, especially not at the cost of your pet.
Like I said before, this 2 hour would still be worthless even if your pet was kept alive. Nobody needs this on BST. Ever.

[Babekeke]

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
Longer duration.

DNC:
Already improved.

BST:
Already improved (though still useless)

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

RDM:
This ability is indeed terrible, but since noone plays RDM for real end-game events, we're not interested.

That's how I read it.

[Byrth]

...
WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

As I said before and Insaniak pointed out again, this is just not correct. What you've made is a 2-hour that's inferior to Tomahawk + Mighty Strikes, and Tomahawk's effect extends to the entire party and would be desired in the same situations. Are we supposed to use this when we're solo zerging Jailer of Temperance in the wrong mode?

Currently, with a 50% TP/WS split and crits doubling damage, both of which are estimations in favor of the new 2-hour for events like Legion, the monster would need 96% PDT for the new 2-hour to be superior to Mighty Strikes (Tomahawk used in both cases). Under more realistic conditions the new 2-hour is probably never superior. If you changed it so WSs are also affected, the monster would need 71% PDT for the new 2-hour to be superior to Mighty Strikes.

As it currently stands the new 2-hour is good only for cases of almost total physical immunity. If you changed it to include WSs the world would not fall apart, but we could use it in a few more cases.

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

I figured that would be your response. Functionally, though, the best thing you can do with this 2-hour is make a really long skillchain or (for anything involving a party) do three WSs back to back. You may have to waste one of your 2-hour Flourishes to re-apply Climactic Flourish depending on how many hits get through, but I think it can be done with good enough timing:

Party: Climactic Flourish (5 FM) -> Rudra's Storm -> No Foot Rise (4 FM) -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> 2-hour -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm -> Reverse -> Rudra's Storm

Again, though you hype the versatility of this 2-hour it's actually fairly limited. Here's why:

1) Reverse is clearly our best damage option, whether starting/continuing a skillchain or going solo. Wild has some potential if you're low on FMs (aka not while using this 2-hour) and solo, but with 5 FMs there's no reason to use anything but Reverse. Building isn't even in the picture unless you're fighting very very difficult monsters (where no one would bring a Dancer due to level correction killing 1H damage).

2) Even though you've reduced the timer, we still cannot use multiple Tier 3 Flourishes (not that we'd want to even if we could) because they are all exclusive with each other. If you use Ternary with Climactic up, Climactic is overwritten, etc.

3) Flourishes I is still not very useful. Why would I want to use 3 Desperate Flourishes in a row when Rudra's gives a more powerful form of Gravity? Why would I want to use three Animated Flourishes in a row when I could just hit the monster and get more enmity in the same amount of time? Why would I want to activate my 2-hour (which takes a second) so that I can use Violent Flourish three times in a row? Is there some monster I'm fighting that's resistant (but not immune) to my Stun effect that uses a long charge-time TP move or spell that I only need to stun once every 2 hours?


There is definitely still room for improvement, but I'll take a dagger version of Meikyo Shisui over the previous (totally useless) 2-hour. Still, please realize that what you've given us is just an inferior version of Meikyo Shisui, which lasts longer (if for some reason that was an issue), grants ~4 WSs instead of 3 with the augmented armor, and gives 300/225/150 TP WSs instead of ~100TP WSs. Also, they're using a GKT instead of a dagger and don't have to rely on another buff to make their WSs do decent damage.