New 2-hour Abilities

[Theytak]

Separated this from the other post because it's equally long and mostly unrelated

Finally, I have one request when submitting feedback. We have been seeing comments stating that “we don’t want this” and “totally remake it.” Your feedback is something we wish to utilize in our efforts to make the game better, so instead please try to be as specific as you can with how you’d like it aspects to change.

Another idea to fix pup. This one is relatively simple, and covers both the new 2hour, and everything wrong with overdrive.

New 2hour:
Attunement: Duration 1:00
Effect: While active, any boosts the automaton gains from its attachments are applied to the player as well.

This is both deviously simple, and devilishly complex. It would essentially give player access to some of the very powerful tools the puppet has, but is unable to fully utilize, such as the offensive combination of target marker and attuner, as well as defensive tools like the armor plates and steam jacket. The idea is that while active, it shifts the focus nearly entirely to the master, and would be a great boon, but it still requires our pet to be there and the use of maneuvers. Now, obviously, certain things wouldn't apply, like attachments that influences things we simply don't have, like barrier module/hammermill/drum magazine, or the JA attachments (strobe/shock absorber/flashbulb). Whether or not it would include bonuses from maneuver absorbing abilities is the real question.

My idea for fixing overdrive is two fold.

First, instead of simply JA haste, include a global reduction in delay, that would also influence spellcasting recasts (specifically the 4 second global delay more than the individual category delays), and ranged attack rate. Essentially, this would give the ability a combined access to either a reduced hundred fists effect or a reduced chain spell effect depending on which puppet is being used, and if using sharpshot, would allow sharpshot to attack with a real ranged attack rate, not it's quirky JA attack rate. Sharpshot's TP is calculated with a 360 delay, so I would say give sharpshot 360 ranged attack delay (3~4 seconds between shots) while overdrive is active.

Secondly, play up the emphasis on maneuvers. Reduce the maneuver recast from 10 seconds to 3~5 seconds while Overdrive is active, and increase the duration of maneuvers used while overdrive is active to 2-3 minutes, so we can get a little extra benefit out of it even after the ability wears off. If you really wanted to boost it, add in the bonus of maneuver-consuming attachments not consuming the maneuvers when they activate while overload is active.

This change more clearly emphasizes the puppet's strengths, and gives the feel of a real pet-focused 2hour. Overdrive doesn't really put our puppet into Overdrive, or even, really, "Augment(s) the fighting ability of (y)our automaton to its maximum level. " It just makes makes them flail around a little bit faster and resist enfeebling effects.

[Okipuit]

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

[Zirael]

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

Tomahawk

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

Dawn_Mulsum
Pet_Food_Theta_Biscuit

As a side note, there has been no mention about Thief 2-hour ability at all since the initial reveal weeks ago. We are unable to dispute it's uselessness in detail without any concrete information about it's parameters. Could you please tell us how terrible it is?

[Demon6324236]

Hey everyone,

We would like to respond to some of the comments made regarding the new 2-hour ability adjustments.

Well, I look forward to your reply.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

I like some of what you said here, the last part to be specific. Longer duration is good, however this would be farm from better than Mighty Strikes if it worked on WSs, as Mighty Strikes works on WSs, and would dominate on anything without somewhat decent to high PDT. However when you last spoke of these abilities, you said you want to have them as situational use, in which case, would Mighty Strikes not be the better choice when a mob has no PDT? And couldn't the same be said for this new one when a mob does have high PDT? It seems as if adding the damage to WSs would only help to balance the situational use you wish it to have. Also...

The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect.

I hope you know how stupid this makes you sound. You are telling us that the effects of this ability that takes 2 hours to use again is basically the same as an ability that thats 10 minutes to use again. Also look at their duration, I am sure this will have a 1 Minute duration at most, to follow in line with others, where as Formless has 3 minute duration. So as I said, I hope you know just how stupid this makes you sound, and hope you think about revising it.

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

Ill give you this one, it is a nice 2-hour, however I still think it may be a bit to limiting.

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

You don't understand the flaw here it would seem. Please look at the first thing in your reply on this subject...

We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power.

This is not why the 2-hour is rejected by players, its because pets are used by BST for a defensive tool in almost all cases. It becomes the tank, and your essentially asking me to offer my tank, so that I can gain Stoneskin, which makes no sense because then I am the tank, because I lost my tank, and now I'm being hit instead, making me easier to kill really. Its like me dropping my Ephemeron, because I want a Swiftwing, your giving us something worse than we already had to protect us when we use this ability, not only that but we get this every 2 hours? Its just flawed, please, do something else. I am not a BST, but as I have said before, I think the way to go with this is add NM specific moves to all pets, and have them only usable by these pets under the effect of the new 2-hour. For instance, Mandragora family pets would gain access to Petalback Spin, nearly every family of mob in the game could have this sort of power, an ability only used by NMs of their family.

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

So long as you can give me your word we will not see this ability become worthless due to an early release, and it works out, I will have no problems. However please understand, I have my full attention on watching for any word on Enmity updates, because it is vital to how the game will function after they occur I think.

[Insaniac]

These 2-hrs are a good chance for the Devs to start listening to player feedback again and they are kinda blowing it. When the entire community is in consensus that the BST 2hr needs to be scrapped and rebuilt as something completely different take the hint.

If that is a proper translation of the devs response to the WAR 2hr being underpowered they need open their windows calculator and read this:

WAR: The 2-hour still doesn't affect WS damage, so it still isn't worthwhile. Warriors have about a 50/50 WS/TP damage split. Assuming Crits double damage (which they will against any enemy that is worth 2-houring), then the monster would need to have more than 75% PDT for the new 2-hour to be worth using.

Not only that, but you've already given us the necessary tool to invalidate this 2-hour entirely, Tomahawk. If a monster has 100% PDT and you Tomahawk it, for a little while it has 70% PDT. If 75% PDT is the cut-off, then Tomahawk + Mighty Strikes (30% with AF2+2 feet and 5/5 merits) is better than using this 2-hour.

You need to make this 2-hour apply to weapon skills too.

then understand it and have their minds blown.

[saevel]

And no mention about RDM's 2hr ... which all the RDM's think is utter sh!t due to its stupidly low duration and really weak bonus.

SE it needs fixed, 3 min duration with 2x potency bonus and 2x duration bonus. Anything less is pretty much useless.

[Calamity]

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

And there's a good solid reason why our pet absolutely must be sacrificed? Other jobs 2hrs actually have effects that cancel the usage of tools and ammo and such. We lose a jug. Why?

[Shibayama]

The problem with the dancer two hour is that it really has no utility outside of a damage spike, thus giving no incentive to bring a dancer to an event - nobody is going to bring a dancer over say, a samurai because it can "fill a variety of roles" - nobody plays the game like this, which is why middle-of-the road jobs with no real direction as of yet like RDM and DNC struggle to find roles in the current endgame content.

Please stop insulting your playerbase by writing off our complaints/frustrations about these abilites (the fact that you're still trying to justify the bst's 2 hour when literally every beastmaster has said that eating your pet in a pinch situation rather than enhancing your pet which is the primary tank is a bad idea? Just take the hint already and come up with something new) - don't tell us how these abilities are justified in existing because you had an intended scenario of use for them - trust your playerbase who have been playing this game for 10 years for heaven's sake.

[Zadimortis]

Hey everyone

Hey.

WAR:
The effect is the same as Formless Strikes, but since the job is different and the special traits are different as well, it’s not like you will receive the same exact effect. We’d be happy to hear feedback on the results of WARs using this ability. In regards to wanting the ability’s effect to apply to weapon skills as well, this would make it so that it is far stronger than Mighty Strikes. As an alternative, we are extending the effect duration to open up more attack opportunities.

This is not justifiable. As has been referenced repeatedly in this thread, Formless Strikes is a three minute duration ability of the same effect with a recast of ten minutes. To make this ability justifiable for Warriors to expend their two-hour timer on, the ability must be significantly more powerful in the hands of a Warrior, which it is only slightly (and even that is debatable). The point with regard to weapon skills making the ability more powerful than Mighty Strikes is true, I'm sure, but was suggested as an offset to make this ability more powerful than Formless Strikes. Do not forget that Mighty Strikes is compatible with weaponskills, and drastically increases their damage output too.

DNC:
While this can be used similar to Meikyo Shisui, there are of course other ways to use it as well. Since there is an advantage point of being able to use it in combination with other abilities, there are a lot of different uses, so we would like to hear feedback after trying it and considering that aspect as well.

The player base has a tendency to optimize: whenever a 'versatile' system or ability with 'a lot of different uses' occurs in the game, the players will immediately optimize to the best route of that system for each desired role of the system. Surely the development team has seen the Bluegartr FFXI Advanced: The New Standard forum, no? Saying it has a "lot of different uses" is not justification for making any possible outcome of the ability weaker than the other option presented - Trance - in virtually any situation.

BST:
We understand that sacrificing your pet for Stoneskin results in a reduction in attack power. This Stoneskin effect is not used like the magic spell Stoneskin that you would use before entering a fight. It is something that is used in a crisis situation in order to recover and avoid emergencies (For example, if your pet is on the verge of dying and when that happens you will be put in a dangerous spot, etc.)

reduction in attack power

Well that's one way to put it. Though, props to the development team for providing an example situation, I know the forum-abiding player base has been requesting that for a while.

I'm starting to understand the developers' intentions behind this ability. Beastmaster is a primarily solo job, and yet it lacks in the way of crisis-averting, ass-saving abilities. But does that really make it justifiable for a two-hour?

(The answer is no, by the way.)

If this is the direction the development team wants to take the new Beastmaster 2-hour, there are a myriad of other options that would be vastly superior to this, many of which have already been suggested in the forums, so I will save my vast and boundless creativity.

PLD:
Once we are able to talk concretely about the enmity adjustments we will be making a comment, so please wait a bit on this.

The development team had better present some math when these enmity adjustments are finalized. The problems with the current enmity system are invisible without numbers to clarify what's going on behind the graphics.

(See that? My vast and boundless creativity, at work. Please, ladies, one at a time...)

Can we expect any comments on the Thief and Red Mage new two-hour abilities? I understand there is quite a bit of dissatisfaction in the test server player base with regard to those.

[Cljader1]

And still nothing about DRK and the 30 seconds duration on this crappy 2hr? Can we just fix BW before we get any new 2hr? BW needs to be 60 seconds in duration and should reset the recast timers of all dark magic upon its use. Drks only have about 5 good spells its about time there is something to boost our magic side.