On Red Mage melee...

[Karbuncle]

I'm going to sit and thow this back at you. Because this is the topic for discussion since the beginning, and instead of contributing your idea as to what would, you've been trying to knock down everyone elses.

So, honestly, think on it a while please, and think of a way you beleive would boost the party enough to make it worth while, and express the situatons you beleive this ability you create would be useful for.

I've posted several. I still beleive the Hesitation status effect idea I had earlier was a good way to address TP moves and RDM in the front lines at the same time. But, like our other debuffs, it won't be all that critical for faster paced fights that we're often allowed to melee in, even though it extents the possbility of the fights we would be allowed in, by giving RDM a utility that wasn't just straight damage.

That was taking the enfeeble approach, however. There might be an enhancing aproach (or a hybrid of both.) that could work. But for those who are disagreeing, or are worried about the risks of damage to our mage side, what we would like is the differing viewpoint being used to fuel ideas that would assist the martial aspects without damaging the backline role capibility. What is it, you think would work and for what?

Seriously? I suggested MULTIPLE Improvements to Melee RDM early in this thread. Your ignorance insults me.

Go look for yourself and come back when you've educated yourself on just how much i contributed to the actual early PRODUCTIVE parts of this thread. The only suggestions I've shot down are the ones that would hinder the Mage aspect of the job.

I was suggesting buffs in this thread before you knew the Official forums existed. (Exaggeration, I know).

[Hyrist]

Sorry, it was a generalization. I did not mean you specifically, but "You" as a representation of the anti-melee sentement.

Shoulden't have quoted you on that one.

But as you said, "I haven't seen one good idea." Is kind of insulting as well, as it either uplifts you above all others in the regards of this, or it insults even your own ideas on this topic.

Don't pose the question that we at a community have been suppling answers to this entire time.

[Karbuncle]

Probably for the best, I've been trying to find/Quote my posts to bring them up here... But i can't find them.

Sorry, it was a generalization. I did not mean you specifically, but "You" as a representation of the anti-melee sentement.

Shoulden't have quoted you on that one.

But as you said, "I haven't seen one good idea." Is kind of insulting as well, as it either uplifts you above all others in the regards of this, or it insults even your own ideas on this topic.

Don't pose the question that we at a community have been suppling answers to this entire time.

"I haven't seen one good idea" since page ~20 or so is what i said. After that it just became people bickering and angry whining.

I acknowledge a few good ideas came from the beginning of this thread, My comment (maybe i didn't repeat it >.O) was only directed at the recent pages of this thread, which are simply mindless bickering.

If you want to get the Discussion back on topic, Honest to god, Block-list people ruining it and start brain-storming between yourselves!

I'll still try to find my original ideas.

[Supersun]

Kay. Again i say though, Maybe seri mentioned it in this post, but I haven't seen a single good suggestion come out of this thread in dozens of pages.

What would make RDM melee good? What boosts would be worthwhile?

I try not to make a habit of making too specific of suggestions because frankly they don't do a whole lot of good. SE is smart (sorta). They can easily make their own solutions.

I'm not saying that trying to make solutions is bad, but what's important is not the idea itself, but the problem it reflects.

I tend to come from the line of thought that something shouldn't be added for the sake of nothing. Something should be added in trying to address a problem.

There are 2 types of ideas you will see on these forums.

The "Oh it would be cool if Samurai was invincible while WSing and had a move that auto stunned TP attacks"
and...
Ideas created to rectify current problems within the game.

That's a large reason my "suggestions" are rather lengthy. It's because if I was a developer what's important is not the suggestion itself, but the reason behind the suggestion. What is the suggestion trying to fix. It's why I tend to go a bit into why I'm proposing a suggestion.

I also tend to believe that the best solutions are the simplest ones. While Duelle may believe that a job revamp is in order I can't realistically see that happening. I mean the extreme would be them renaming Red Mage to Green Mage and then actually creating Red Mage correctly.

I know I've written about the ironies of Rdm melee and had a few simple solutions to help fix a lot of the issues that it currently faces that were frankly stupid to even add in the first place. That and any melee buff most people feel should come in the form of utility over raw damage.

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Also Karbuncle has been pretty understanding out of all the people linked here from the BG thread lol.

(didn't you make that post in another thread? Search posts that you have made by clicking your name)

[Hyrist]

It would be good if we collected the pile of suggestions and just had a place to list them, and sift through them.

I mean there have been several, and we've discussed the ones we've like and dislikes, but never really gone and put them all together.

But here's a question for you in a more general sense. Do you support more damage increases (including gear), or some sort of utility? We kind of put these into those sort of catagories.

While I'm REALLY big in the utility camp, I've been eyeing what SE said about WS changs down the line. If we could get native elemental Weaponskills that could actually DO a fair bit of damage, I think that might calm down a bit of the uproar.

I'm trying to nudge the borders of what's viewed as 'acceptable' as far as RDM's melee mob range goes. I don't beleive it should be comparable to that of a simple 'mage who melees' as it was arctypically a hybrid job. I've no problem defaulting to magic in situations that calls for us going out of melee range at all, because of the All-range aspects of the job. I don't mind support at all, I enjoy it. But I do mind the current overall lack of usefullness for our frontlines.

Their either should be more to it than what we have, or the performance of it should be high enough to be, well, lets go ahead and say the MOST acceptable mage below BLU by a fair margin.

[Karbuncle]

(didn't you make that post in another thread? Search posts that you have made by clicking your name)

I tried that it only goes as far back as like ~200 posts, and i have thousands ;;

Edit: The problem with a Pure-DD aspect of RDm in terms of Swords is that, It would have to stand up to SAM or WAR to be considered worthwhile. While some may argue (it has value like haste/etc) It would just be another cookie-cutter melee.

If RDM was to get a melee buff, I'd like it to augment their Mage aspect as well, something that powers both aspects of the job. Like Enspell III that grant some unique buff Aura or debuff to the enemy.

RDM, if receiving a Melee buff, it should focus on as you say, Utility gains, I don't want it to be simply a Pure Damage buff, because if it wasn't good enough it simply would not help. You'd end up like THF's.

[Hyrist]

RDM, if receiving a Melee buff, it should focus on as you say, Utility gains, I don't want it to be simply a Pure Damage buff, because if it wasn't good enough it simply would not help. You'd end up like THF's.

The difference, sadly, is that we'd still offer more to the party than THF due to our mage side still being pretty capable even in the front lines. And I don't wanna knock THF down (Even though I think that job SORELY needs some help.)

So you would have them on the buff aspect. How specifically?

(I'm headded home from work, will continue this post/discussion when I return)

[Supersun]

Thief needs a DD buff in general >.>

[Greatguardian]

The biggest problem with RDM melee is that whatever utility you bring to the table while melee'ing has to equal or surpass the sheer utility lost by coming out of the backline if you want it to be considered worthwhile by the community at large.

Red Mage has an absolute buttload of utility on the back line, contrary to what appears to be popular belief in this thread. Losing the main/sub slots, the ability to swap gear constantly without consequences (this would severely damage Rdm's TP phase damage), and the magical aspect's distance and multi-targeting advantage is a huge deal. Being zoomed in and whacking away at one monster is a completely different perspective than overlooking a battle and reacting to multiple situations simultaneously. Engaging in melee intentionally limits the scope of one's actions.

Frankly, FFXI has plenty of jobs that are already limited in such a fashion. If you want to make Red Mage viable enough in close quarters for people to care, you may as well rename it Dancer. It would be doing just about the same thing.

[Karbuncle]

Hmmm, How about a Slew of Job Traits/Spells that enhance their Close-Range aspect? First off:

Spells:

Ward: - Limits the Damage of Severely damaging Attacks. Works like Scherzo/Earthern Armor. Single Target. This is to help the Survivability of a RDM in combat.

Enspells III - Stronger than Enspells I/II, How about say ~45/50 Damage a hit with high Enhancing Magic.

Debuff Type:
EnBlizzard III - Reduces Enemies Magic Attack. Builds Power with each hit. Starts at MAB-5, Each hit landed Reduces it by an additional 2, Cap at -25 MAB on Enemy. Effect stays on for ~45 seconds if not hit.

EnStone III - Reduces an Enemies Defense with each hit. Lowers Defense by 3% for first hit, -1% each hit after for a total of -15% Defense down on Enemy. Effect lasts ~45 seconds if not hit.

EnWater III - Reduces an Enemies Magic defense with each hit. Lowers Magic Defense by 3 for first hit, -1 for each hit after for a total of -15 Magic Defense. Effect lasts same as above

"Buffing" Enspells

EnAero III - Grants an Evasion bonus to party members in Area of Effect. Evasion Bonus Builds up the longer the RDM is in range. Starts at +15 EVA, +3 Evasion per 15 seconds after, capping at +45 Evasion. Effect stays on for ~30 seconds if RDM leaves Area of Effect.

EnFire III - Grants an Attack bonus to party members in Area of Effect. Attack Bonus starts at +15 Attack, and builds at +3 per 15 seconds after, Capping at +45 Attack. Effect stays similar to EnAero

EnThunder III - Grants an Accuracy Bonus to party members in Area of Effect. Similar buffs to the above.

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This gives bonuses to a lot of aspects of Fights. 1 increases Magical damage on the enemy, another Raises your parties attack prowess and your own, others Raise your parties survivability (reducing enemy Magic attack). It adds another aspect to Enspells and you get their full benefit from Melee range

...

Now we need a small buff to RDM DD capabilities too, to make it worthwhile in combat a bit more... Like the following.

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Job traits

JT 1
Increases your Accuracy and Attack while enspells are active.
RDM-30/50/70/90
Increases Accuracy By 7, Attack by 7. +7 each level after for a total of +28Acc/Atk with Enspells.

JT-2
Grants bonus to Magic Defense to parties members in range based on Current Enspell.
RDM:25/50/75/99
Grants +5MDB per stage.
*Bonus is based on which the Element is Strong too... I.E Enwater raises Fire Defense, Enthunder waises Water Defense, so you're not stucking using Enfire on a mob because its Attacks are firebased.

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These are just icing on the cake, the first will help improve where RDMs lack (Acc/atk Values), and the second helps your party if you're in range.

Now for Job Abilities. IDK where to go from here, But i'll try my best.

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Job Abilities

JA-1
Enhancing the Potency of your next Enspell. (including buffs/debuffs for Teir III's).
Recast: 5min
Duration: Until spell wears off.
*increaes potency of Buffs/debuffs by 25%, and Damage by 25%. I.E Attack+45 from Enfire III would gain 25% boost, meaning it would gain an additional ~11 attack.

-The balance in this is that if you switch Enspells, You won't keep the bonus, So while you can keep 1 bonus up indefinitely, Switching enspells will cause you to lose this buff.


I got nothing more :X im tapped out.