On Red Mage melee...

[Seriha]

Out of curiosity, clarify that concept of being overpowered. Because if it hinges largely on soloing certain mobs, that's more an issue of poorly designed challenges than RDM being some kind of god, as there were some solos RDM couldn't do while other jobs could possibly do them more quickly.

I still stand behind the belief that RDM's primary limitation should be its MP. Everyone that ever creeps up on that overpowered argument sits there fearing that a RDM will be main healing, nuking, buffing everyone, and meleeing all at once without breaking a sweat. We already know that wearing the current melee gear deprives us of Auto-Refresh options (though I argue even backliners aren't getting their full efficiency if casting frequently enough--ya know, idle gear 'n all). Any future martial quirk can have an MP requirement, either steep if few options become available, or if many are considered, adding up to the point where you shouldn't have the MP to throw out nothing more than the occasional MB or emergency cure while being slightly behind the big boys.

Some feel that would be impossible. Some feel it's just not worth trying to do. Myself and others will certainly disagree, as code can be written pretty much any damn way SE chooses to write it. And just looking at the atma system and the variety of buffs it offers, standalone things could be borrowed, or of course other things BRD or COR might have to be exclusive to RDM. I mean, it's not like Phalanx, Enspells, or varieties of Fast Cast have been given out to other jobs just to help them along. If you're someone that only deals in absolutes, though, then of course a hybrid will never meet optimum criteria as, by default, they're held back in some way.

[Greatguardian]

Most durable job in the game? Check. Able to heal self and others at a passable level? Check. Able to deal direct magical damage at a passable level? Check (double check with Blizzard IV). Possessive of some of the strongest direct enfeebles in the game? Check. Possessive of significant active defensive buffs (Shell, Haste, Blink, Aquaveil, Stoneskin, Phalanx)? Check. Fast Cast trait which is now uncapped (casting time portion only) and applies to spells obtained via subjob? Check.

Were some of Red Mage's solo feats kinda gimmicky? Sure. Despot was a prime example of a stupid easy solo that basically required sitting around till the mob died, especially when you dealt with Rdms that didn't know how to nuke. Suzaku though? Seiryu? There are definitely legit examples of Red Mage being an absolute artist in their solo'ing capacity. And there's nothing wrong with touting that. They win by enfeebling the monster, curing themselves, mitigating damage, and dealing damage all at an incredible level at the same time. Before Scars of Abyssea was released, Red Mage was single-handedly capable of destroying almost every Visions NM at the 80 cap where otherwise a group would be required.

[Karbuncle]

For the record im pretty sure whats-his-face said Doom took over Haste/something for the later half of the test because their WHM sucked/slacked behind/needed help.

IDK if that was.. adjusted in the parse or something

[cidbahamut]

Frankly, hybrid jobs in FFXI suck complete ass solely because they are hybrids. How awesome is that there Summoner job? Bottom of the barrel must feel pretty nice for them. What about that thar Blue Mage? I must've forgotten the part where people actually give a crap about that job outside of Abyssea. Oh, no, I didn't. It just sucks. General rule of thumb, no one needs one Hybrid when two Specialists will always be exponentially better.

Red Mage is an extremely powerful job because its magical aspects are powerful enough to be considered specialist-tier in their own right. If your nukes suck on Red Mage, something is wrong. If your enfeebles won't stick on things that aren't immune, something is wrong. If you can't stand there and take 0-100 damage from King Behemoth's Meteor, something is wrong. Red Mage is an extremely adept magical job outside of Abyssea, and is very near vital for any sort of difficult content.

However, while Red Mage's potential is extremely high, it requires an almost-constant casting/action load in order to keep it up. Pretty much the only time I'm not doing something on Red Mage is when I'm 30 seconds from my vert timer and riding my last 50~ MP. If you want to melee at a point which offers a utility that is anywhere near comparable to what Red Mage can offer as a backline specialist, you'll basically have to become the most brokenly overpowered job in the entire game.

Edit: Which Red Mage basically was, for years, and still may be considered as such outside of Abyssea.

This right here is my beef with the melee crowd.

Red Mage is a gorramn monster, and all you guys can do is piss and moan about how you're not good enough at swinging a sword.

It utterly baffles me.

[Seriha]

Okay, so you're mixing a bit of old perceptions with new things there and rehashing durability with buffs. Things like Seiryu and Suzaku I'm going to lump into the poor mob design category, while pointing to 80 cap mobs as some kind of crowning achievement we now lol at (and if these were achieved via pinning of DoT/conflux warping... yeah, mob design issue) is, well, dumb since we're still in the transition phase to the eventual new endgame.

But let's not kid ourselves, while some people take RDM with the intention to take on various NMs solo, many either never reach that point or simply fail trying. I am not at all for stagnating RDM's future growth as a punishment for the few who have excelled, and bluntly, opted to brag about it with videos and such. That's arguably what led to minimal attention prior to the cap increases, and further the minimal attention beyond. For all we love to say SE does wrong, I find it hard to believe some might be willing to say they got RDM right.

This right here is my beef with the melee crowd.

Red Mage is a gorramn monster, and all you guys can do is piss and moan about how you're not good enough at swinging a sword.

It utterly baffles me.

Of late, I'm getting the feeling it goes beyond that for you.

But really, what makes RDM a monster. Is it RDM, or Utsusemi? Because when Bind/Grav can't be exploited and pinning isn't an option (nor should it ever be), all our defenses do is let us die a bit more slowly than the other guy. Or are you still clinging to that argument we get decimated in AoE range?

[Greatguardian]

You really think they screwed up Red mage and it's not one of the most powerful jobs in the game? Really?

Have you, like, ever played Red Mage?

Edit: Red Mage is the single most durable job in the game, period, when it has the ability to change all 16 of its gear slots at will.

Yes. Changing all 16 slots. At will. That is one of the single most powerful aspects of the Red Mage job. Being able to do everything without ever being tied down to a single piece of gear. Simply by equipping swords, and locking those two slots in order to keep TP, you are severely hampering Red Mage's potential effectiveness. Simply by having to use a Melee TP set in order to deal damage and receive gear Haste, you are throttling Red Mage's effectiveness.

Can a Magical Red Mage sit in AoE range of a monster and positively laugh as it attempts to hurt them? Hell yeah.

Can a Melee Red Mage sit in AoE range of a monster, while melee'ing, and do anything but eat up MP? Notrly. Good luck capping PDT efficiently without a Terra's Staff.

[cidbahamut]

Not without a sword in hand she hasn't. So no, not really.

[Seriha]

You really think they screwed up Red mage and it's not one of the most powerful jobs in the game? Really?

Screwing up != Not powerful.

You're looking at some of those applications through methods that shouldn't exist, though, or as I said with the game being in transition, as an ultimately pointless measuring stick.

But as I said, RDM can't be everything at once no matter how you might try to spin its power. If they want to be more defensive, they're spending time/MP to do that. If they're nuking aggressively, they won't be curing as much, and that works in reverse. Any and all who fear that nobody will ever level another job if a properly equipped RDM could fill any archetypical role forget that other jobs have unique benefits and SE should also be building on those.

[Greatguardian]

Oh okay. Enfeebling monsters to avoid attacks and mitigate damage is an unintended method of combat.

I do not even want to start this whole bullcrap "It's cheating" debate, because SE has put their foot down and that's that. Pinning is not cheating. Pinning is working as intended. Kiting is not cheating. Bind/Grav snorefests are not unintended.

I do not give a flying frapoli what someone's personal opinion on what's "right" and "wrong" as far as methods of combat in a video game is. The fact of the matter is that the Developers both actively and passively support Red Mage's "cheesy" and "badly designed" strengths. And honestly? Fights like those are fun. If you think they're just some cheesy snorefest, you probably haven't even done them.

[Seriha]

There ya go again, presuming how I play.