On Red Mage melee...

[Supersun]

I could still create a job or 2 that adds utility to the front line that dancer thematically doesn't cover.

[Hyrist]

Red Mage has an absolute buttload of utility on the back line, contrary to what appears to be popular belief in this thread. Losing the main/sub slots, the ability to swap gear constantly without consequences (this would severely damage Rdm's TP phase damage), and the magical aspect's distance and multi-targeting advantage is a huge deal. Being zoomed in and whacking away at one monster is a completely different perspective than overlooking a battle and reacting to multiple situations simultaneously. Engaging in melee intentionally limits the scope of one's actions.

Let's break these down because I severely disagree here.

1. Losing the main/sub slots

The only valid concerns here is nuking damage and cure potency. Accuracy on any monster you would pull your swords out is just not a concern at all. If you're meleeing in general, Curing is a secondary concern and Nuking is a far off concern as even our current s--- DPS trumps our nuking game anywhere outside of abyssea.

2. The ability to swap gear constantly without consequences (this would severely damage Rdm's TP phase damage)

Casting Alone hampers our TP phase damage, what gear we wear for our spells specifically has no bearing comparatively. The impact your talking about would be the same impact a DPS has for swapping gear into their damage reduction/ws, etc sets. And again, even as that hurts us personally in the DPS department, that has no bearing to our overall support as a party as, if we're casting, we're obviously supporting the party in other ways that we feel outweighs the cost to our DPS.

The more valid concern here is the loss of Idle gear. But again, we're running into a debate of casting loads during situations RDM would be meleeing anyways or how to stretch the normal bounds of RDM's acceptance into melee. These situations, the MP burden is relatively low (and at an all-time low given the effects of AF3+2 on top of Composure.) and the party likely benefits more from a more aggressive approach to begin with.

Even with me focusing primarily on procs inside Dynamis, I still have enough MP to work on procs between Tping (a separate mob that's been proced, mind you) to match my convert cycle.

3.The magical aspect's distance and multi-targetting.

This has more to do with practice than it does 'scope'. You can toggle off Target Lock if you're really concerned. Keeping track of your positioning in context to pops and your party, and being pro-active when it comes to link management offsets this to the point of it being non-existent.


There are better concerns to raise about offsetting our back-line utility by creating a front-line ones. These ones you seem to refer to seem to relate mainly to monsters on a difficulty or tedium level I likely would not recommend melee on anyways.

But in the interest of keeping this conversation fair, let me share with you some concerns I have about loss of utility form front to back line.

Let's start with the multi-targeting issue and shift the complaint slightly.

I've a concern about debuffing monsters that die in quick succession. Farming in Dynamis, I occasionally pull off of a monster to debuff one that is being held to the side, just for better convinence of targeting (especially if I'm going for procs) If you were holding targets for players to come in on and were trying to insure specific debufffs for each target, it could get a bit difficult, and tedious to have to manually target away from your main target each time. I still do so when I find it convenient, but I do still withdraw if the list of debuffs on the specific Slept mob tend to be extensive. However this isn't often.

The other one I see is a loss of subjob usage, which I think is one we just have to bite and take if we choose to do so. Honestly, I can still take to the front as a RDM/BLM or a RDM/SCH, I just have to acknowledge it won't be as high of a damage/often of a utility. It's the same kind of hit I take if I go /dnc to help with JA procs in Dynamis and accept the loss of Sleepga/AoE Stoneskin/Regen as well as Aspir. It's a situational choice.

The cost of this wouldn't feel so hard either way if we had EX weapon-skills natively on Sword, which I still believe we should have.

Let's see... other problems.

I often hear about troublesome debuffs we encounter while in the front lines. I'd say the worst of these I've really run across are mute and paralyze. Plague isn't so big because our TP is more of a skillchain utility we have resist petrify (which actually does work if you put up the appropriate barspells) silence can be removed by echo-drops or healing waltz if you're /dnc, and Curse can almost be outright ignored depending on it's potency (things that give severe curse are in my no melee department.) and doom, which again is a usually too big for my blade anyways can be screened.

Mute, however, just kinda outright prevents your casting and I don't like it. Though, knowing to cycle your buffs out well before the fight beings and taking a step back if you must to reapply them really lessens the impact on this. /DNC lets you take the TP and help with curing load even while muted as well as give you more general utility.

Paralyze though is a b--ch. It's the worse status effect a RDM can have period. A silence you can remove can be echo dropped, mute can be anticipated and worked around but trying to remedy a paralyze is hell as it effects everything short of our WSes which are lightweight to begin with, and paralyze hurts our ability to have TP ready to open skill-chains with. I'll Barblizzard/Barparalyze to cut down the number of times/duration of how I'm paralyzed, but a monster that spams it might not be worth it even if it is easy.

I think the only real big one you need to worry about generally classifies it as a no-no anyways, and that's heavy AoE damage that ignores shadows. Bombs and things that self destruct usually don't count, because we have a very potent, long duration Barfire and that pretty much guarantees you're going to resist it. Spike effects don't concern a RDM nearly as much as another melee due to Phalanx and the appropriate bar-element to further cut damage/effect proc. I've got no problem meleeing soulflayers in Nyzul, even back at 75, due to how less frequently I got paralyzed on them compared to other melees (and those things NEED to die asap).

I think that about covers it for my concerns and how I currently regard them. I don't believe our melee side should really be focused on making up for the shortcomings of our max-capacity back-line performance, because I don't beleive our max capacity back line performance is really utilized in anything except heavy HNM/Boss fights, and I don't believe we should melee then.

Honestly, I believe our front-line utility should be focused more along the lines of what we could offer when some of our back-line tools or capabilities just isn't useful or useful enough compared to other jobs that can do better for the situation.

Which really makes me think about our buffing game, especially in terms of increasing the effectiveness of the party around us better beyond simply haste/refresh.

[Karbuncle]

Hmmm, How about a Slew of Job Traits/Spells that enhance their Close-Range aspect? First off:

Spells:

Ward: - Limits the Damage of Severely damaging Attacks. Works like Scherzo/Earthern Armor. Single Target. This is to help the Survivability of a RDM in combat.

Enspells III - Stronger than Enspells I/II, How about say ~45/50 Damage a hit with high Enhancing Magic.

Debuff Type:
EnBlizzard III - Reduces Enemies Magic Attack. Builds Power with each hit. Starts at MAB-5, Each hit landed Reduces it by an additional 2, Cap at -25 MAB on Enemy. Effect stays on for ~45 seconds if not hit.

EnStone III - Reduces an Enemies Defense with each hit. Lowers Defense by 3% for first hit, -1% each hit after for a total of -15% Defense down on Enemy. Effect lasts ~45 seconds if not hit.

EnWater III - Reduces an Enemies Magic defense with each hit. Lowers Magic Defense by 3 for first hit, -1 for each hit after for a total of -15 Magic Defense. Effect lasts same as above

"Buffing" Enspells

EnAero III - Grants an Evasion bonus to party members in Area of Effect. Evasion Bonus Builds up the longer the RDM is in range. Starts at +15 EVA, +3 Evasion per 15 seconds after, capping at +45 Evasion. Effect stays on for ~30 seconds if RDM leaves Area of Effect.

EnFire III - Grants an Attack bonus to party members in Area of Effect. Attack Bonus starts at +15 Attack, and builds at +3 per 15 seconds after, Capping at +45 Attack. Effect stays similar to EnAero

EnThunder III - Grants an Accuracy Bonus to party members in Area of Effect. Similar buffs to the above.

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This gives bonuses to a lot of aspects of Fights. 1 increases Magical damage on the enemy, another Raises your parties attack prowess and your own, others Raise your parties survivability (reducing enemy Magic attack). It adds another aspect to Enspells and you get their full benefit from Melee range

...

Now we need a small buff to RDM DD capabilities too, to make it worthwhile in combat a bit more... Like the following.

-------------------------------------------

Job traits

JT 1
Increases your Accuracy and Attack while enspells are active.
RDM-30/50/70/90
Increases Accuracy By 7, Attack by 7. +7 each level after for a total of +28Acc/Atk with Enspells.

JT-2
Grants bonus to Magic Defense to parties members in range based on Current Enspell.
RDM:25/50/75/99
Grants +5MDB per stage.
*Bonus is based on which the Element is Strong too... I.E Enwater raises Fire Defense, Enthunder waises Water Defense, so you're not stucking using Enfire on a mob because its Attacks are firebased.

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These are just icing on the cake, the first will help improve where RDMs lack (Acc/atk Values), and the second helps your party if you're in range.

Now for Job Abilities. IDK where to go from here, But i'll try my best.

--------------------------------

Job Abilities

JA-1
Enhancing the Potency of your next Enspell. (including buffs/debuffs for Teir III's).
Recast: 5min
Duration: Until spell wears off.
*increaes potency of Buffs/debuffs by 25%, and Damage by 25%. I.E Attack+45 from Enfire III would gain 25% boost, meaning it would gain an additional ~11 attack.

-The balance in this is that if you switch Enspells, You won't keep the bonus, So while you can keep 1 bonus up indefinitely, Switching enspells will cause you to lose this buff.


I got nothing more :X im tapped out.

In case it was missed..

[Hyrist]

How about a Slew of Job Traits/Spells that enhance their Close-Range aspect?

I like where you go with this for some of it, but I think we should really sit and decide if we want to go buffing or debuffing with this.

Buffing steps on Aura which I'm not sure we'll get, but, if they support the idea of an Aura Spell JA, I suppose this can work to, in which case, buffing Enspells are a go.

Examples of a full Enspell Buffset:

Fire - Attack or Double Attack
Water - Magic Resistance or MDB
Thunder - Accuracy or Critical Hit Rate/Damage
Stone - Defense or Physical Damage Taken %
Aero - Evasion or Subtle Blow
Blizzard - Magical Accuracy or Magic Attack Bonus

For the Debuff Route
Fire - Magic Defense Down or Magic Accuracy Down
Water Attack Down or Physical Damage Down (%)
Thunder - Magic Resistance Down/Magical Damage Received +%
Stone - Accuracy Down or Enemy Critical Rate down
Aero - Defense Down, Physical Damage received +%
Blizzard - Evasion down, Critical Hit rate received +%

There's some of my ideas as status effects that would be good as a debuff or buff for enspells, but I think we really should just stick to one line or the other.

I don't think we should receive any further melee traits as far as melee goes, aside from scaling adjustments on the amount of accuracy we receive with Composure. (perhaps maybe +20-25 by level 99) This is mainly keeping in mind what we could do with our en-spells.

Another route about this is listed on the mage section. The "Aura" spell JA I mentioned there earlier could be paired with more melee buffs that could benefit us as well. That might lower the threshold of what sort of performance threshold we might additionally need to get utility wise for to justify expanding our Melee capable areas and solidifying the ones we can melee at more.

[Seriha]

Kay. Again i say though, Maybe seri mentioned it in this post, but I haven't seen a single good suggestion come out of this thread in dozens of pages.

Can't say I blame you for missing things, not that much has been said lately aside from the rhetoric. Bluntly, a lot of the ideas probably got tapped out earlier in the thread. More of my initial postings covered the collective issues plaguing the job. Some things people have brought have been from left field. Others are building on what's been established, either on RDM itself (like doing more with Enspells) or referencing things other jobs do and giving it a RDM twist.

While I have read the magic thread, I haven't hopped in yet for a couple reasons. First was to ultimately see what may come of it early on. Second was a mix of RL activities splitting my focus. That said, I've long since been for a tiered trait to extend enhancing magic durations, not so much potencies with nudging the RDM into doing a little more for it. Debuffs were also brought up in a similar manner. Here and elsewhere I've said that I never want Haste II to hit RDM as a spell. I can understand the benefit of it, yes, but individually it puts a strain on the direction I've been shooting for on the job.

When I say things like melee can be integrated into improved enhancing and enfeebling, it takes me back to an old idea I had shortly after the WHM update where we found their cures could later apply to divine magic potency. My spin on it was pretty simple, taking one of two stances, landing an enspell builds toward a pool of points you can use to tap into various spells depending on the stance you chose. The offensive flavor would highlight nukes and debuffs while the defensive would improve the potency and durations of buffs. I fully intended for this to grow with us as we leveled, the beginning iterations showing up around level 30, the second at 50, and the third at 70. Now that we're beyond that, though, the numbers I'd initially conceptualized could be tweaked to include level 90 or beyond. In either case, the max level of application could allow for a 20% Haste spell that'd last 6 minutes without gear/composure or a nuke rivaling that of staves in both accuracy and damage. The only complaints I ever received on this concept? The back wouldn't benefit. Tough.

As is, the above would take nothing away from the RDM of now. I'm not really interested in taking away from the mage side of things, either, outside of frequently cited exploits that over-exaggerate power. Once we flesh out our T4 nukes, I'd pretty much call us done on basic black magic for a 99 cap. People still baww over Cure V, but like a Haste II, I don't want it because it risks repeating our days prior to Abyssea. I can acknowledge the need for some kind of curative supplement, however, and instead favor that approach to lie in either enhanced damage mitigation (like a literal -DT% spell) or a more potent regen that can act as a steady stream of cure 2s or 3s depending on the last damage you'd received. It allows a greater synergy with other healing jobs, where I'm sure we've all too commonly seen wasted MP spent on cures trying to save a damaged party member.

Enfeebling is still a pretty big open book, though. We've even had a thread on it devoted specifically. Looking around to other jobs, it's not hard to see BLU has a wider variety of debuffs, though, some we don't have access to while others can inflict multiple at once (both in terms of number of debuffs and targets) or even do damage on top. I'm more than aware that BLUs aren't typically called up for this role, but that's for reasons similar to RDM's own debuffs often either not being "needed" or having difficulty landing for their intended effect. Regardless, one of the more popular spells that came up during that thread was one that could literally adjust the target's level. From the statistical standpoint, you could easily call it a universal stat down. The big bonus, though, and something that other debuffs just don't do right now, is actually step into the level correction side of various formula. Another possible bonus in manipulating a monster's level is that it could also inhibit the use of certain TP moves, such as if a mob like Apadamak managed to level up, we'd have a means to counter its access to Fulmination beyond stuns. More passively, bumping a THF mob down so it couldn't have Evasion Bonus V or something would help every physical DD trying to land swings.

In the end, though, it's all about MP. Yes, RDM is a job that boasts a high personal longevity, but all that can go to crap if you're put in a situation where your party members aren't up to speed. We know the back has its advantages, and among them is better MP regeneration. Anyone who's ever been in these taxing situations knows that trying to swing on top would be suicide. This isn't every situation, though. Sometimes our party layouts can allow for more freedoms. Those with solid skills would have no difficulty keeping things running smoothly. It is in these situations where if something can be gained by stepping up, a good RDM should. We're just in the predicament where that kind of "good RDM" doesn't exist in enough commonality for people to have faith. And yes, I place that issue solely in SE's hands because numbers inspire opinions, not the other way around. We can change our opinions, but we can't change the numbers.

[cidbahamut]

Let's break these down because I severely disagree here.

1. Losing the main/sub slots

The only valid concerns here is nuking damage and cure potency. Accuracy on any monster you would pull your swords out is just not a concern at all. If you're meleeing in general, Curing is a secondary concern and Nuking is a far off concern as even our current s--- DPS trumps our nuking game anywhere outside of abyssea.

This is incorrect. Your PDT, MDT and max MND sets all take a significant hit by locking down those slots.

[Supersun]

This is incorrect. Your PDT, MDT and max MND sets all take a significant hit by locking down those slots.

Is there even a single monster in this game that you need the weapon/shield slot to max dMnd on anyway?

I don't know of any monsters that have outrageous mind like Kirin has Int.

[cidbahamut]

I don't know of any, but then I haven't been able to find reliable data on most mobs' stats.

Regardless, to say that locking those slots only affects nuking damage and cure potency is still false.

[Doombringer]

In case it was missed..

i'm not even gonna reply to the suggestions cuz i got a thing to do in a few minutes and i can't do more than skim it, but i feel it needs to be said..

thanks for the first on topic post in 100 pages...

now comon people.. i'm out of popcorn. so quit shouting the same 2 rephrased arguments at each other and start brainstorming.

i want 5 proposals on my desk by monday >.>

[Greatguardian]

Let's break these down because I severely disagree here.

1. Losing the main/sub slots

The only valid concerns here is nuking damage and cure potency. Accuracy on any monster you would pull your swords out is just not a concern at all. If you're meleeing in general, Curing is a secondary concern and Nuking is a far off concern as even our current s--- DPS trumps our nuking game anywhere outside of abyssea.

2. The ability to swap gear constantly without consequences (this would severely damage Rdm's TP phase damage)

Casting Alone hampers our TP phase damage, what gear we wear for our spells specifically has no bearing comparatively. The impact your talking about would be the same impact a DPS has for swapping gear into their damage reduction/ws, etc sets. And again, even as that hurts us personally in the DPS department, that has no bearing to our overall support as a party as, if we're casting, we're obviously supporting the party in other ways that we feel outweighs the cost to our DPS.

The more valid concern here is the loss of Idle gear. But again, we're running into a debate of casting loads during situations RDM would be meleeing anyways or how to stretch the normal bounds of RDM's acceptance into melee. These situations, the MP burden is relatively low (and at an all-time low given the effects of AF3+2 on top of Composure.) and the party likely benefits more from a more aggressive approach to begin with.

Even with me focusing primarily on procs inside Dynamis, I still have enough MP to work on procs between Tping (a separate mob that's been proced, mind you) to match my convert cycle.

3.The magical aspect's distance and multi-targetting.

This has more to do with practice than it does 'scope'. You can toggle off Target Lock if you're really concerned. Keeping track of your positioning in context to pops and your party, and being pro-active when it comes to link management offsets this to the point of it being non-existent.


There are better concerns to raise about offsetting our back-line utility by creating a front-line ones. These ones you seem to refer to seem to relate mainly to monsters on a difficulty or tedium level I likely would not recommend melee on anyways.

But in the interest of keeping this conversation fair, let me share with you some concerns I have about loss of utility form front to back line.

Let's start with the multi-targeting issue and shift the complaint slightly.

I've a concern about debuffing monsters that die in quick succession. Farming in Dynamis, I occasionally pull off of a monster to debuff one that is being held to the side, just for better convinence of targeting (especially if I'm going for procs) If you were holding targets for players to come in on and were trying to insure specific debufffs for each target, it could get a bit difficult, and tedious to have to manually target away from your main target each time. I still do so when I find it convenient, but I do still withdraw if the list of debuffs on the specific Slept mob tend to be extensive. However this isn't often.

The other one I see is a loss of subjob usage, which I think is one we just have to bite and take if we choose to do so. Honestly, I can still take to the front as a RDM/BLM or a RDM/SCH, I just have to acknowledge it won't be as high of a damage/often of a utility. It's the same kind of hit I take if I go /dnc to help with JA procs in Dynamis and accept the loss of Sleepga/AoE Stoneskin/Regen as well as Aspir. It's a situational choice.

The cost of this wouldn't feel so hard either way if we had EX weapon-skills natively on Sword, which I still believe we should have.

Let's see... other problems.

I often hear about troublesome debuffs we encounter while in the front lines. I'd say the worst of these I've really run across are mute and paralyze. Plague isn't so big because our TP is more of a skillchain utility we have resist petrify (which actually does work if you put up the appropriate barspells) silence can be removed by echo-drops or healing waltz if you're /dnc, and Curse can almost be outright ignored depending on it's potency (things that give severe curse are in my no melee department.) and doom, which again is a usually too big for my blade anyways can be screened.

Mute, however, just kinda outright prevents your casting and I don't like it. Though, knowing to cycle your buffs out well before the fight beings and taking a step back if you must to reapply them really lessens the impact on this. /DNC lets you take the TP and help with curing load even while muted as well as give you more general utility.

Paralyze though is a b--ch. It's the worse status effect a RDM can have period. A silence you can remove can be echo dropped, mute can be anticipated and worked around but trying to remedy a paralyze is hell as it effects everything short of our WSes which are lightweight to begin with, and paralyze hurts our ability to have TP ready to open skill-chains with. I'll Barblizzard/Barparalyze to cut down the number of times/duration of how I'm paralyzed, but a monster that spams it might not be worth it even if it is easy.

I think the only real big one you need to worry about generally classifies it as a no-no anyways, and that's heavy AoE damage that ignores shadows. Bombs and things that self destruct usually don't count, because we have a very potent, long duration Barfire and that pretty much guarantees you're going to resist it. Spike effects don't concern a RDM nearly as much as another melee due to Phalanx and the appropriate bar-element to further cut damage/effect proc. I've got no problem meleeing soulflayers in Nyzul, even back at 75, due to how less frequently I got paralyzed on them compared to other melees (and those things NEED to die asap).

I think that about covers it for my concerns and how I currently regard them. I don't believe our melee side should really be focused on making up for the shortcomings of our max-capacity back-line performance, because I don't beleive our max capacity back line performance is really utilized in anything except heavy HNM/Boss fights, and I don't believe we should melee then.

Honestly, I believe our front-line utility should be focused more along the lines of what we could offer when some of our back-line tools or capabilities just isn't useful or useful enough compared to other jobs that can do better for the situation.

Which really makes me think about our buffing game, especially in terms of increasing the effectiveness of the party around us better beyond simply haste/refresh.

1) You're either doing it wrong, or don't know what you're talking about if those are the only things you are gaining from your Main/Sub slots. Not trolling. Not joking. Magic Accuracy, PDT, MDT/MDB, dMND, hMP, and Refresh say hi.

2) A Red mage swapping to PDT gear is like a DD swapping into PDT gear. A Red Mage casting is nothing like a DD swapping to PDT gear. Casting eats away at the overall ability to deal damage, yes, but that is not the point. When you don't have to worry about TP phase damage, you can idle in whatever the hell you want. Refresh, PDT, MDT, swap at will with no loss to yourself because you swap for the appropriate actions regardless. When you have an automatically occurring action like a TP swing, you lose the ability to both idle/swap to whatever you want and maintain optimum (lol) damage.

You also need to keep in mind that none of you melee buffs even seem to want the same thing. Whether it's Rdm melee being viable on weak things (it already is), or Rdm Melee being as/more powerful than the Magic side (Duelle), or nerfing Rdm Magic to make the class more "balanced" (Duelle), or making Rdm Melee on-par with real DDs that don't have Rdm's nuking, healing, buffing, and debuffing prowess.

Not everyone here is talking about making Rdm into Dancer. Which is pretty much what you're talking about here. A Red Mage that sits there and attacks things with swords with barely a backup healing and/or basic support casting role is essentially a Waltzing dancer using Haste Samba. Oh wait, no, it's even less effective than that (sup JA haste).

The less you cast as a melee'ing Red Mage, the more you really ought to just be playing a Melee class. If you actually want to make melee'ing viable on a Mage class, you are going to have to find a way to melee while keeping up the same casting load as a backline Red Mage. Frankly, there is no amount of melee DPS that is going to make up for the casting loss. Ever. If I needed a DD, I'd get a DD. If I wanted someone with basic backup magical ability to swing swords at a monster all day, I'd invite a Blue Mage. Red Mage is a caster. The idea, if you insist on forcing the topic, is to melee while still doing that casting. Not to replace it.

3) If a monster is using spikes, and the White Mage is not a brain dead troglodyte, everyone is going to have Barblizzara at a potency which exceeds Red Mage's native Barblizzard.

If a Red Mage is not utilizing 100% of their time/MP/casting pool at all times, HNM or not, they're being lazy as hell. Is it okay to be lazy sometimes? Sure. But that doesn't mean that Red Mage will only ever bother being active on HNMs. Red Mage melee is already viable on anything below EM level. No one here is saying that it isn't. Certain people do seem to want Rdm to be melee'ing on big NMs, or HNMs, so you're wasting your breath here.

I absolutely do not see the point in you quoting and "refuting" posts that are neither directed towards you, nor towards what you seem to want/believe of Red Mage. In case no one here is really "getting it", actually read the content of Duelle's posts and you'll see why so many Mage-type Rdms are upset with the flow of this thread.