On Red Mage melee...

[Hyrist]

This is incorrect. Your PDT, MDT and max MND sets all take a significant hit by locking down those slots.

Now I know you don't pay attention.

1. DMnd is reached on vast majority of fodder mobs before even touching main/sub slots, it's the exact same argument as for staves.

2. RDM at this point is a minimum hate job, which means your arguments for PDT and MDT are reduced to monsters who AoE a significant amount of damage. Read the full post, I regard this issue when it comes to monsters who can deliver a truck ton of AoE damage. (as in for, if it can, you're likely not going to melee it anyways. Thus, it's overkill just like elemental staves for M.Acc.)

I mean, add them to your personal list if you want to nitpick THAT much. But they're just as moot if not more in the described situations. At least Cure Potency and Nuking damage have a clear, measurable contribution increase even in fast fights. Hitting a vague stat cap on a potency that may or may not even see it's full effect put to use in the fight is not, especially for quick fights.

And if you TRULY wish to nitpick, NOTHING prevents you from taking the hit in TP gain to swap into a PDT MDT or Full MND set, or any other weapon combination if you feel it's worth the loss. That is entirely up to your discretion.

[Greatguardian]

1) You're currently the only Rdm Melee advocate talking about making Rdmelee viable on fodder mobs. This is probably because everyone else here knows that it already is. No one gives a flying crap about fodder mobs.

2) Seriously? Red Mage? Minimum hate job? Christ, I'm hard pressed to find a time when I'm not capping Enmity on Red Mage on anything alive more than 60 seconds. The only thing I'm actually macroing Enmity- into is Cures, and those are hardly the bulk of my casting.

Some of you guys really make me feel like your disgust for Magical Red Mage stems from the fact that you literally just sit there and Haste, Refresh, and Cure over and over. I know Duelle seems to refer to anything non-melee as "Cure botting" or "Refresh/Haste spamming like a robot". This rendition of "Red Mage" is absolutely nothing like the Red Mage that myself, that Aurara, that Eek, that Cid, that Karbuncle, and that every other high-end Magical Red Mage in here knows how to play.

[Supersun]

He's not the only one that believes that Rdm should be able to melee on non HNM mobs. "Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" Has been a fairly common motto for a while now.

The issue is that for fodder, and by fodder here I mean non HNM level stuff, a good portion of our arsenal is rendered unnecessary. As long as you have that white mage all of our defensive spells, especially all our our non Dia III enfeebles, don't mean jack ****.

You might say that you are lightening the white mages MP load, but be realistic. If your defensive spells are really going to be the difference between victory and defeat I can guarantee you that you have bigger issues with your set-up.

I mean list the spells that you will realistically use to actually contribute to the offensive side of things. Haste, Refresh, Dia III? I missing anything? Maybe dumping some nukes before a convert? Sure if you are in abyssea nuking might be viable, but outside where even Blms are laughed at as a DD until they fix nukes outrageous MP cost melee is infinitely more efficient then nuking.

I know how to play the never stop casting game. I also know that besides the Haste/Refresh botting 99% of that game is completely pointless on 99% of mobs because it's pretty much all defensive in nature on monsters that you would almost have to try to die on if you have a whm.

Also, everyone can easily cap enmity in under 60 secs in abyssea.

Edit: Did you really just say that Haste Samba is better then the spell haste. 15 > 10 and spell haste > JA haste until it's actually possible to cap spell haste outside of soul voice.

Seriously, Drks would like a word with you if you think JA haste is better. Probably misread what you meant though.

[Greatguardian]

Magic Haste is so unbelievably hard to find. I mean, like, there's totally never going to be anyone else capable of casting magical Haste around when a Red Mage is on the front lines meleeing with only basic support spells. 10% JA Haste is infinitely better than a redundant 15% Magic Haste in any scenario where someone else is perfectly capable of giving people Haste spell. I don't see anyone here at all advocating a 5 DD + 1 RdMelee setup where the RdMelee is only doing backup heals with a severely reduced spell load.

Same reason Summoner's Hastega is only good for conserving MP.

Honestly, I think you highly underestimate Red Mage's nuking and situational control capabilities. It doesn't require Abyssean demigod-mode in order to be decent. We've had this conversation before, and the only thing that came of it was it becoming abundantly clear who had the better nuke set.

Calling the difference between Slow 1 and Slow 2 negligible is ignorant at best. Slow eliminates entire potential attack rounds, and significantly decreases potential damage taken over time. Am I going to really stress over Slow2'ing every monster in an EXP scenario where things die in 10 seconds? Naw. But if I'm fighting a low-end NM, or an IT monster, is it worth the time and MP to cast? Definitely.

Finally, is it that hard to grasp the concept that Red Mage is already a viable melee on total crap fodder mobs that nobody cares about? When a Rdm has gear that isn't complete and utter crap, they can DD circles around Pickup Gimps (Doom proved this). You don't need to adjust Red Mage to make melee'ing viable on fodder because it already is. It simply isn't viable on anything above EM-T level. We've only said that a few dozen times now.

Edit: Dark Knight is the only job in the game that can cap JA Haste. They are unbelievably broken from a Haste perspective and have nothing to complain about in that department. Don't confuse the whining of the craptastic masses who are only concerned about their lack of Critical Hit WS in Abyssea because they're too crap tier to ever move beyond easy-mode content with the legitimate problems that the Dark Knight job faces (Yes, it has some. Haste isn't one of them.)

[TybudX]

The issue is that for fodder, and by fodder here I mean non HNM level stuff, a good portion of our arsenal is rendered unnecessary. As long as you have that white mage all of our defensive spells, especially all our our non Dia III enfeebles, don't mean jack ****.

Let me get this straight, you want RDM melee to be good enough that they will be invited to a party when similar buffs/debuffs are already present?

...

I'm not going to explain why people are laughing at you. You are using the exact same logic as Dallas as to why he thinks melee SMN is teh awesum.

If you want to go into specifics, RDM was a generalist, and as such mediocre at everything. That didn't fly and will never fly in the MMO context because generalists tend to suffer horrible fates in being excluded from meaningful content or relegated to a function that was both menial and ridiculously far away from what the players wanted out of the class when they rolled it. Since the generalist approach doesn't translate well into MMOs, pieces of the hybrid have to be adjusted to make it work.

You are absolutely correct. I'm pretty sure this is why SE made RDM extremely good at everything... except melee. Also, not quoting one of your posts again, but because you repeatedly bring it up:

Stop insinuating that RDMs were only capable of soloing because of cheesy tactics and oversight in game design. RDMs are/were good/better at soloing (than other jobs) because of Fast Cast, and to a lesser extent Enspells, and because of access to a wide variety of gear. Referring to solos that are possible because somebody has movement speed (not job specific) and a DoT spell or JA (anybody with a support job) as part of your argument makes you sound like you have never actually played RDM before, at least not in anything close to it's full capacity.

I'm going to sit and thow this back at you. Because this is the topic for discussion since the beginning, and instead of contributing your idea as to what would, you've been trying to knock down everyone elses.

Speaking in the general sense, and as somebody who doesn't typically say things like "I told you so". I got into an argument about RDM melee a few years back on the Alla forums and suggested that Quick Magic (like in T.O., Conserve RT or some such) would probably be the biggest improvement RDM could get for it's melee improvement due to it being an outright % increase in available TP phase time. I even showed math for it. Of course, not being an outright increase in att/acc/enspells/ja:sordzaretehawsum, I got rated into the ground. The pro-RDM melee crowd can go *** themselves if people like you are the best they have to show for themselves.

[Supersun]

The issue is that for fodder, and by fodder here I mean non HNM level stuff, a good portion of our arsenal is rendered unnecessary. As long as you have that white mage all of our defensive spells, especially all our our non Dia III enfeebles, don't mean jack ****.

Let me get this straight, you want RDM melee to be good enough that they will be invited to a party when similar buffs/debuffs are already present?

...

I'm not going to explain why people are laughing at you. You are using the exact same logic as Dallas as to why he thinks melee SMN is teh awesum.

That's a hell of a stretch to make a conclusion...

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Is slow II worth the time and the MP to cast on low end monsters? That entirely depends on efficiency. Sure, it'll cut down on DoT that the party takes, but if the party is in no risk of dying why would you waste time and MP on something that won't help you kill faster. I mean at that point all you are really doing is lowering the chance of one of your DDs to counter the monster.

Can Rdm outmelee a bunch of gimps on fodder? Well, yeah, so can just about every other job. The issue is that equally geared Whms and Brds can out DD a Rdm as well. Solo potential or not.Rdm shouldn't be offensively weaker then a whm. I'm not sure how this doesn't concern you since I remember reading in voidwatch how part of your spectrum enhancement is related to how much damage you do on a proc iirc.

Seriously at minimum there shouldn't be a problem with SE changing 5 lines of code to fix simple things that never should of happened in the first place to actually give Rdm enough DD potential to beat a Brd that will especially help Rdms on the lower end of the gear spectrum.

[Hyrist]

Guardian's already expressed his opinion and he's fine for it. We're never going to convince each other of the stance and attempting to do so detracts away from the point of the thread. Please find another thread to argue your points at Great, they'll find no reception here, where the concepts to discuss the tie ins that would make it more functional in the front lines are being made.

I stoutly do not believe the solution to the problem of RDM's frontline performance is leveling another job. I level another job to play that job on it's own merits, merits that fit with it's archtype. And I am far from alone in this sentiment as illustrated by many here.

"Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" has been a mantra of Red Mages since pretty much it's inception in FF1. And it's a subject you cannot simply shout down by having the more stubborn opinion. SE would be doing a disservice to a good number of it's RDM player-base if it ignores it completely, although, I will acknowledge that it would be a disservice to a greater number if it were to outwardly harm it's magical capabilities as a trade off. But there is NOTHING stating that you must melee, which, given the MMO common wisdom of Minmaxing even a generalist job, is what leads to the opinion that you 'shouldn't'.

[TybudX]

"Melee Fodder, Magic Bosses" has been a mantra of Red Mages since pretty much it's inception in FF1

As long as we're sticking to that manual, we should also abolish 14 jobs, real time combat, and being able to pan our cameras to the far right of our characters during combat. You know, cause a 25 year old game said so.

[Duelle]

RDM is good with a sword, however you're prowess ends when the mob reaches HNM status, Which is where your magic is suppose to take over. You have your Melee for weaker mobs, and your magic for tough mobs. any RDM should know this, and it makes perfect sense, They aren't called "Red Melee", they're called "Red Mage".

You're falling back on the joke that is the "mage" argument. I find it difficult to take you seriously when you start off with that.

THey did this, By giving RDM its unique niche, Enhancing and Enfeebling better than other jobs. What needs to be done is to power up its enhancing and Enfeebling Capabilities.

AKA taking the job in an entirely different direction from what is dictated by its archetype (really, the sword&magic character forced into mezzer/buffbot). Making magic and melee both viable options for the hybrid in question would have prevented the mess that broke out between both camps from happening in the first place. Could have called the job something other than Red Mage (Green Mage or Oracle actually fits what we currently have better) and gotten similar results.

Swords don't need to be left in the dust (RDM still has access to a lot of Melee gear and Almace/Excalibur), But at the same time i redirect you to my above statement, as a Hybrid job they are adept at melee, and Excellent at Magic.

That's not a hybrid job. That's a caster with an incomplete idea attached for novelty. Very different things.

You're free to ask for Melee capabilities, just so long as they don't nerf Magic capabilities, Because you wouldn't be helping RDM

You seem to join Guardian in thinking I'd nerf RDM on the baseline, whereas I'd create a melee facet (hence the stances) and build off that without fear of melee proficiency breaking the job because the limiting mechanic that makes modern hybrids tick would actually be there, along with safeguards to prevent said melee facet from being misused or undermined by other players. Instead of crossing your arms at me before even hearing what I have to say, how about you ask me to elaborate?

you'd be condemning it and everyone who plays it as a mage.

If you actually believe this, it only tells me that deep down you do realize the job in its current incarnation is poorly-designed.

Frankly, You're arguing and instigating back, and in some cases, with a far harsher and irritated tone. We're adults "THEY STARTED IT" isn't working. You're just as guilty for continuing it.

I can admit to this. Do, however, keep in mind the melee camp is on the receiving end of the insults. In my case, also keep in mind I've been in these kind of arguments before. Different game, different class, but same archetype and same naysayer BS.

If you actually want to make melee'ing viable on a Mage class, you are going to have to find a way to melee while keeping up the same casting load as a backline Red Mage.

This creates redundancy, so that would not fly. From a design perspective, cycles don't have a place in front line play.

Frankly, there is no amount of melee DPS that is going to make up for the casting loss. Ever. If I needed a DD, I'd get a DD. If I wanted someone with basic backup magical ability to swing swords at a monster all day, I'd invite a Blue Mage. Red Mage is a caster. The idea, if you insist on forcing the topic, is to melee while still doing that casting. Not to replace it

My prior experiences on this matter beg to differ. DPS boosts, utility that makes it nice to have the hybrid stand in the front hitting things, some inconveniences to healing or safeguards to prevent the hybrid from being forced into buff-botting of heal-botting if front-lining, mezzing/debuffs tied in to front-line play and maybe even some nukes, too. Note the caveat: When front-lining.

If you want to look at it another way, when you play in the back line you get to use the aspects of your class to make the back line role work. When you front line, you use the aspects of your class to make the front line role work. The current model doesn't let that happen due to lacking mechanics and the fact that staying away from the mob (not just in the case of RDM, but most classes in this game) is the "easier" and "safer" alternative.

I know Duelle seems to refer to anything non-melee as "Cure botting" or "Refresh/Haste spamming like a robot".

You do realize that our perceived "value" when talking about group dynamics largely hinges on heals, Refresh and Haste, right? Enfeebling plays second fiddle to the big three. Flexibility matters little in party content, in no small part due to the old "good parties don't run into things where your utility and flexibility would help, so shut up and refresh me" argument. If you're trying to bring RDM soloing again, I'll remind you that soloing means nothing in a game built around partying.

You guys also seem to have missed something I did make clear earlier in this thread: I don't mind having a melee RDM abide by the rules other melee follow in combat. If the SAM, DRG, WAR and MNK are being told to not hit a mob due to some encounter mechanic, I'm not going to expect to be melee'ing either. That'd make no sense.

[MarkovChain]

1) You're either doing it wrong, or don't know what you're talking about if those are the only things you are gaining from your Main/Sub slots. Not trolling.

You are trolling and also a bad RDM.

Magic Accuracy,

FFXI 101. There are 3 Kind of mobs you can experience in ENDGAME (not something you do OBVIOUSLY).
(1) trash mobs, wtf do you need a staff
(2) Boss where you easily cap mag acc (and I mean EASILY) : AT 75 they were gimp mobs like Fafnir, salvage bosses, Nyzul bosses, limbus bosses etc. Don't need staff
(3) Bosses that are either immune (earth wyrms) or that cap magic evasion w/e the gear you are using (Odin).

Casting slow and paralyze (and blind) with staves has always been useless for true RDMs (aka those with a gear / merits that don't completely suck)

PDT, MDT/MDB,

Most useless set of gear. Most of the idiots caring about this did it because they couldn't farm the great pieces of gear, and tried instead to find useless pieces of gear to equip. I mean HELLO stoneskin, equip that enhances stoneskin. If you get nuke you recast stoneskin. At least you didn't say "idle" where some idiots actually equipped regen gear.

dMND,

ok

hMP,

I don't remember the last time I rested my MP on RDM. It was probably in 2005 with awesome exp PT of RDM-SMN(main heal)-PLD-BLM-THF-DRG.

and Refresh say hi.

wat ¿

If a Red Mage is not utilizing 100% of their time/MP/casting pool at all times, HNM or not, they're being lazy as hell.

This is because you are the ONE considering that RDM is a cure bot. If you need curing, WHM are there for this job. RDM is in your ally for
(1) debuff slow/para/blind and mainly dia3
(2) pulling obvioudly
(3) sleeps
(4) backup curing nuking w/e

Due to this, convert, and refresh2 there is basically no time where a RDM is out of MP, but you would not know this since you don't play RDM, or your only experience with it is lol merit parties.