Job Vision: Watch paint dry

[Mightyg]

I see no reason why summoners couldn't get a charge system like cor and sch for pet abilities. That way they're balanced in that they can't just spam all of the pets abilities, but you still have the freedom to use multiple attacks as you please. they're should probably be a short recast on individual blood pact abilities, but nothing that keeps you too limited.

[Malamasala]

Charges only work for things you use occasionally. Like QD charges is good because you might need to do 2 sleeps at once. At other times you might be able to just let the charges refresh. On SMN though, it would mean you do 2 predator claws in 1 minute, but then wait 2 minutes until you do next, to get the charge back. In other words, it is only useful if you put SMNs in a zerg alliance and kill something in 30 seconds. If the fight lasts longer, like 2 minutes, charge system isn't very helpful.

However, for wards it could be a little help. You could throw up 2 defensive pacts at once, instead of waiting a 1 min cooldown between them. Wards last a while, rages are instant and then the effect is gone.

Personally I wouldn't mind a 3 timer system though.

Low level rage pacts, could have 3 charges. This is for applying debuffs, or making a weak level 1-2 skillchain to lower elemental resistance.

Ward pacts, again 3 charges. So you can add multiple buffs in a short time.

High level pacts, 70+. As today. No charges, because it would never make a difference.

[Malamasala]

You want a true comparison between WAR and SMN (melee)?

How about no gear, no support, no buffs, and no spells each?

Since you think that a WAR without its best weapon available is "fair," why not strip SMN of the same weapons?

I actually just want an INTERESTING comparison. But I'm quite flexible on this test. You can skip the avatar if you want to.

What you'd get with this test, is an example of how much melee traits and difference in armors make between the jobs. The idea to include the avatar were to see if having 0 traits but 1 avatar balanced it all out. I.e. a quick test to see if DA + attack bonus + better haste gear = 1 avatar pet.

And the reason G.Axe isn't part of any of these tests, is because I'm already pretty sure using the best weapon for WAR puts it as a better melee than SMN... else why would anyone play WAR over SMN? (Discuss this with Dallas though. He likes the discussions about WARs being half as good as SMNs)

[Korpg]

I actually just want an INTERESTING comparison. But I'm quite flexible on this test. You can skip the avatar if you want to.

What you'd get with this test, is an example of how much melee traits and difference in armors make between the jobs. The idea to include the avatar were to see if having 0 traits but 1 avatar balanced it all out. I.e. a quick test to see if DA + attack bonus + better haste gear = 1 avatar pet.

And the reason G.Axe isn't part of any of these tests, is because I'm already pretty sure using the best weapon for WAR puts it as a better melee than SMN... else why would anyone play WAR over SMN? (Discuss this with Dallas though. He likes the discussions about WARs being half as good as SMNs)

Ask yourself this: What is the purpose of this test?

And let us know what you come up with.

I see what you think this test will do, but in all honesty, what is the purpose of this test? Is it to determine how SMN can stack up to WAR given a solo situation? Party situation? Really, what is the purpose of the test, you think?

[Leonlionheart]

SMN gets its best weapon
WAR gets its 7th best weapon

Comparisons.

[Babekeke]

Except a DNC isn't required to cap haste =.=a. (I think!)

With Dual Wield being considered in the absolute Delay Reduction, Jobs like NIN, THF, and DNC (ones described) in reality only need about... I can't remember the exact number, But 25% gear haste/+Spell+ Double March should cover that to cap their Delay Reduction, no DNC Required. (This isn't even including Blitzers roll!)

I know Capped Haste from gear is 25% (26% is the Shown Number, You only get 25% in reality its just 26% is required in shown numbers because how its caculated... blah blah), 43% in magical.

That in itself is 68%, I think Dual Wield would cap the rest. This is of course excluding 2handed DD, minus DRK, who can cap JA haste with Desperate Blows.

I think DW would only cap it on NIN? I'm really confused as to how DW works in conjunction to haste, considering NIN's base trait is 35% (IIRC) and that with Gear Haste would be 60% already, making Haste get it to 75%. AF1 body is 5% DW, which would cap it.

However any NIN that's played with a BRD knows that March breaks your swing animations @_@

68% haste requires 37.5% DW (Edit: because they are multiplicative [you have to * them not + them])

69.3% (rounded) haste is required to cap at 35% DW (naked NIN)
71.5% (rounded) haste is required to cap at 30% DW (naked DNC)
73.333333333% haste is required to cap at 25% DW (naked /NIN)

The closer you get to cap, the less DW is affecting you. Magic cap + fully merited samba means there's no point in equipping any DW gear because you're already capped. regardless of 25% DW or 50% DW (not sure how much a NIN or DNC can actually achieve), however, drop the haste samba and a NIN only needs 2.5% DW to cap haste. DNC needs 7.5% and /NIN needs 12.5%.

The maths is in the Spoiler so as to not clutter the page up:

Decide on which you want to decide: DW or Haste (the one you don't already have a set value for)

In this instance I'll start with a known DW figure and show you how to work out how much haste you need to cap.

as /NIN you have 25% DW naked so we'll go with this.
% are shown as a decimal, so 25% = 0.25

x=your DW figure
a=the amount of haste you need
you can use exactly the same maths to work it out the other way round with x = your known haste if you want to work out DW required, which will than = a

1-x=y
1/y=z
z*0.2=b
1-b=a

so in our example:

1-0.25=0.75
1/0.75=1.3333333333etc
1.3r*0.2=0.2666666666etc (ending in a 7)
1-0.26r=0.73333333333etc

so, 73.3333333% haste required (74%)

Hope this helps you in the future. I had to read the haste thread on here for about 2 days to fully understand it *_*
So a big thanks to whomever it was that posted that info for me (and strangely, I thought LLH was one of them?!)

[Leonlionheart]

(and strangely, I thought LLH was one of them?!)

I was probably posting about 2hander haste numbers, I don't (or didn't) know anything about dual wield.

But that's different now, thanks for the info!

[Korpg]

Now, to have our resident SMN-melee trolls to discount the math again because it goes against them, again.

[Alhanelem]

I see no reason why summoners couldn't get a charge system like cor and sch for pet abilities.

I would totally love for this to happen. First SCH, then COR, why not SMN?

Now, to have our resident SMN-melee trolls to discount the math again because it goes against them, again.

You'd better not be lumping me in there. Dallas is the only such troll on these boards. I have the intelligence and wisdom to recognize everything you could ever imagine doing on the job- including looking hot for the ladies.

[Korpg]

You'd better not be lumping me in there. Dallas is the only such troll on these boards. I have the intelligence and wisdom to recognize everything you could ever imagine doing on the job- including looking hot for the ladies.

Don't worry, I was only lumping Dallas and Mala together. You are safe as long as you don't state that Emp staff SMNs are the best and outdamages everyone.